What would happen to Weaver if....

Leonidrex.5649 · November 25, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Mega.5791 · November 25, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Aegis is also pretty good on condi mirage.

However, I agree that Fire weaver might become a problem with the next patch. So it is okay to discuss possible solutions already. But I would like to see how it works out first. It's main counters - Firebrand, Water weaver for example - might profit from the upcoming changes as well and shift the meta as a whole.

Arheundel.6451 · November 25, 2019

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:
@"Lilyanna.9361" said:I'm confused as to why everyone wants Ele to be a bunker SO kitten BAD and never wants us to do damage.

you're confused cuz not everyone does, that's the way anet thinks ele should be designed to have a competitive build. sad but true.

You're the confused one here...eles have started in GW2 with a burst spec : scepter/dagger and that got nerfed when people started to moan about the dmg, then eles with their dmg gutted got forced to play valkyrie d/d ele ( old version of valkyrie amulet)..and that too got moaned about and nerfed in the end , then eles became irrelevant for almost 2 years till DEc 2014 when they decided to "gift" few earth traits to ele , to bring it back to the fold stone heart and diamond skin.

Ofc we can't have a viable ele in GW2 so this new cele d/d ele got moaned too and nerfs it gots in typical ele fashion..nerfs to the ground, delete diamond skin and delete cele amulet...we can't have a melee based design with a squishy class and grant it some necessary staying power during teamfights. NOOO! We must have a squishy melee based mage with no staying power so that they explode as soon as they get into the fray..because logic.

Maybe eles can do some again from distance with a scepter?...NAAHh can't have that! Nerf the dmg of scepter...and here goes FA core ele...

Expansion 1 comes...let's give something to this irrelevant class ...a support healer spec..but make sure to nerf the dmg some more because LoL, once only a handful of people were left to play ele, they decided to introduce this sword mainhand which is comparable in powercreep levels to what other professions have been enjoying for years but...we can't have that can we?

I find it hilarious that a warrior, a guardian or a necro comes and call ele OP....let me make an example http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAEd7lZwSYYsLGKOWTlrXA-z5gHCqDA , with this build I have as much sustain as a mender ele while having 0 healing power and 3x more toughness/power/health/mobility/condi clear and you may ask how...I have this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22For_Great_Justice!%22 , I press it twice get 25 might instantly and get healed for close to 7000 heal every 20s on top of other sources of passive heals.

The math behind the 7k heal ? : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mending_Might + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forceful_Greatsword = 200 heal for might stack so 200 x 25 =5000 and 5000 + ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Shouts x 2 ) = 7000+ heal...with zero healing power haha and my dmg is through the roof.

( sarcasm mode on )This build is 100% balanced ( sarcasm mode off ) so we should nerf the rest

Leonidrex.5649 · November 25, 2019

@Megametzler.5729 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Aegis is also pretty good on condi mirage.

However, I agree that Fire weaver might become a problem with the next patch. So it is okay to discuss possible solutions already. But I would like to see how it works out first. It's main counters - Firebrand, Water weaver for example - might profit from the upcoming changes as well and shift the meta as a whole.

what will happen is alot of firebrands, alot of revenants and almost the same ammount of weavers becouse its fun as hell to play.how much something is played doesnt show how strong it is, by far one of the most played if not THE most played class in pvp is thief, and I wouldnt go around screaming for nerfs to them.

Mega.5791 · November 25, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Aegis is also pretty good on condi mirage.

However, I agree that Fire weaver might become a problem with the next patch. So it is okay to discuss possible solutions already. But I would like to see how it works out first. It's main counters - Firebrand, Water weaver for example - might profit from the upcoming changes as well and shift the meta as a whole.

what will happen is alot of firebrands, alot of revenants and almost the same ammount of weavers becouse its fun as hell to play.how much something is played doesnt show how strong it is, by far one of the most played if not THE most played class in pvp is thief, and I wouldnt go around screaming for nerfs to them.

But two or three seasons ago there were like 3 Weavers in top100. Not it is significantly more. Agreed, there are always people going for fun to play, but many just try hard to play strong specs. :smile:

Agree about Firebrand, Revenant and Weaver though. But this is also speculation until we see an actual and complete change list.

Stand The Wall.6987 · November 25, 2019

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:Nah, I've seen people practically scream about ele damage when they actually could do damage. I've also seen the exact same people moan when tempest was a thing before they got put into the floor. Funny how those people did not say a thing until Weaver decided to find a bunker build. Then they whined about that. After that people said fresh air Weaver did too much because of the double proc boons we got so they nerfed that. Then they took away the fury on swap and replaced it with might etc. Etc.
People had not gotten off of this class's back because they want to justify every time this class gets suddenly popular with: "But D/D CORE"
And I'm not blaming you at all Stand, because you've been somewhat reasonable, but I've been on the these forums for years and it's the same people that had whined about a lot of things here that had gotten floored into non-existence.

well right on. I may have said some dumb things in the past but I can't remember. err, I know I've said dumb things I just can't remember what those things are lol. in general I find most people want good balance for all classes they just don't always have the means to express it. I do remember mouth frothing about lockdown mes a long time ago, man oh man i'm glad it turned out ok. pretty embarrassing when I think about my tone in that thread tho.so you used the words somewhat reasonable. care to elaborate? :-3

Fearless.3569 · November 25, 2019

Eles are not allowed to have the same viability that Warriors, Mesmers, Guardians, and Engineer get to have. Nope Eles must always be nerfed to oblivion.

It's funny and sad at the same time.

mortrialus.3062 · November 25, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

We're talking meta mirage, which is currently running Mirage Mantle and meta weaver. Otherwise we're getting into the weeds and can start talking about things that are currently irrelevant like Mist Form and Fiery Whirl on Conjure Fiery Greatsword.

mortrialus.3062 · November 25, 2019

@Megametzler.5729 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Aegis is also pretty good on condi mirage.

However, I agree that Fire weaver might become a problem with the next patch. So it is okay to discuss possible solutions already. But I would like to see how it works out first. It's main counters - Firebrand, Water weaver for example - might profit from the upcoming changes as well and shift the meta as a whole.

I didn't say Weaver is OP and needs serious nerfs. Just pointing out how it's just a fact that pound for pound Meta Weaver noticeably outpaces Meta Condi Mirage in terms of it's evasion up time and it does so almost entirely on the strength of Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Mega.5791 · November 25, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Aegis is also pretty good on condi mirage.

However, I agree that Fire weaver might become a problem with the next patch. So it is okay to discuss possible solutions already. But I would like to see how it works out first. It's main counters - Firebrand, Water weaver for example - might profit from the upcoming changes as well and shift the meta as a whole.

I didn't say Weaver is OP and needs serious nerfs. Just pointing out how it's just a fact that pound for pound Meta Weaver noticeably outpaces Meta Condi Mirage in terms of it's evasion up time and it does so almost entirely on the strength of Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

I didn't mean to contradict you!

I totally agree with Ele having many (too many?) evades. More protection, blocks, whatever would be nice and allow more counterplay, but I think that would be a major rework. Let's all stay calm, breathe and wait for the patch. And discuss possible changes to Fire weaver, which absolutely might become necessary. I would even be fine with minor changes now (change boring Glyph and reduce condi cleanses from transmute Fire aura for example).

reikken.4961 · November 25, 2019

@ first post: Sword weaver would be deleted from pvp, obviously. You knew the answer to this already.

reikken.4961 · November 25, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.Teleports and target breaks are effectively evades. Even the most skilled player needs a nonzero amount of time to reorient and retarget the mirage.

Bigpapasmurf.5623 · November 25, 2019

I got grossed out watching Cello's recent Weaver video. His is the kind that makes dueling not fun. :p

Fueki.4753 · November 25, 2019

@"Megametzler.5729" said:reduce condi cleanses from transmute Fire aura for example).Because less condi cleanse from CORE Ele is what exactly what is supposed to nerf WEAVER, right?There already is insufficient condi cleanse to "counter" the condi clown fiesta and you want to reduce that?

mortrialus.3062 · November 25, 2019

@reikken.4961 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.Teleports and target breaks are effectively evades. Even the most skilled player needs a nonzero amount of time to reorient and retarget the mirage.

You're comparing intangibles. Yes, condition mirage has teleports. Fire Weaver has significantly most sustain and self healing lowering the need for as much evasion and mobility and does so in a way that makes it more capable of holding a node rather than phase retreating off up a ledge somewhere which does have serious advantages but also serious downsides. Both are intangible and impossible to quantify without hard macro level data comparing the two's performance.

In a match up of hard mitigation vs hard mitigation, meta fire weaver significantly outpaces condition mirage right now. It just factually does. All I said to the guy was don't throw out nonsense statements like Mirage has more evasion uptime than Weaver and I came with facts about the amount of uptime the two builds can potentially have.

Leonidrex.5649 · November 25, 2019

@reikken.4961 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.Teleports and target breaks are effectively evades. Even the most skilled player needs a nonzero amount of time to reorient and retarget the mirage.

depends but true, its better to blink away from bullcharge then to eat it and remove its knockdown with it.effective use of staff 2, blind and jaunt as pseudo evades is part of what good mirage will do.But as @mortrialus.3062 said, mirage doesnt have weaver level of condicleanse/healing. that allows for node holding.I fought weavers on my skill level with condi, you lose as mirage you dont die to them but they will force you off the node.

Swagg.9236 · November 26, 2019

@ollbirtan.2915 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@ollbirtan.2915 said:what would happen if ppl stopped writing clickbait headlines with meaningless suggestions?

What would happen if ppl stopped getting so triggered over the idea of losing the ability to negate incoming damage while attacking and healing?

lol I don't even main weaver in spvp --- i play it on a noob level. However all the weavers I came across were nothing compared to other classes that are actually OP. It takes a lot of skill to play weaver well in plat2+ .

The only skill in this game is watching a minimap. Playing Weaver is a PvE rotation no matter where you are.

Mega.5791 · November 26, 2019

@Fueki.4753 said:
@"Megametzler.5729" said:reduce condi cleanses from transmute Fire aura for example).Because less condi cleanse from CORE Ele is what exactly what is supposed to nerf WEAVER, right?There already is insufficient condi cleanse to "counter" the condi clown fiesta and you want to reduce that?

Fire weaver uses that exact trait to spam Fire auras and transmute them for huge amounts of condi cleanse...? Fire weaver has a huge amount of steady condi cleanses, rivaling even Water weaver's while being able to use offensive attunements. Would you be happier with an iCD on Sunspot, which allows core to keep their cleanses but limits the access to Fire weaver? This way Fire weaver could keep its damage and healing, but would become vulnerable to conditions. Using the Fire traitline should not bolster defense this much.

You can make own suggestions, you know, instead of screaming "NO NOT THAT!!!" to anything people say.

Neil.3825 · November 26, 2019

@Megametzler.5729Is "fire" weaver a problem with staff or dagger or scepter ? I don't think so.Why is it so hard to admite that only sword is a little OP ? Or is there some hidden meta with staff or dagger or scepter ??

Fat Disgrace.4275 · November 26, 2019

@reikken.4961 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.Teleports and target breaks are effectively evades. Even the most skilled player needs a nonzero amount of time to reorient and retarget the mirage.

They really aren't lol. Killed many and been killed after a port from a single attack.

Fueki.4753 · November 26, 2019

@Megametzler.5729 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@Megametzler.5729 said:reduce condi cleanses from transmute Fire aura for example).Because less condi cleanse from CORE Ele is what exactly what is supposed to nerf WEAVER, right?There already is insufficient condi cleanse to "counter" the condi clown fiesta and you want to reduce that?

Fire weaver uses that exact trait to spam Fire auras and transmute them for huge amounts of condi cleanse...? Fire weaver has a huge amount of steady condi cleanses, rivaling even Water weaver's while being able to use offensive attunements. Would you be happier with an iCD on Sunspot, which allows core to keep their cleanses but limits the access to Fire weaver? This way Fire weaver could keep its damage and healing, but would become vulnerable to conditions. Using the Fire traitline should not bolster defense this much.

You can make own suggestions, you know, instead of screaming "NO NOT THAT!!!" to anything people say.

Seeing the overabundance of condition damage, duration and application, there is no need or reason to nerf anything that puts a small dent into it.If you want Fire Weaver to underperform again, nerf Weaver.

I personally see no problem with Fire (or any other) Weaver.

Emberheart.8426 · November 26, 2019

@Neil.3825 said:@Megametzler.5729Is "fire" weaver a problem with staff or dagger or scepter ? I don't think so.Why is it so hard to admite that only sword is a little OP ? Or is there some hidden meta with staff or dagger or scepter ??

That only really shows how much of a crutch sword is. If you remove sword and eles are forced to rely on other weapons, then the class becomes completely worthless. They can reduce the evades, but then they'd have to solve the real issues of the class and nobody trusts them to do it at this point. It has been over 2 years since PoF release and almost nothing has changed if you are using other weapons.

Neil.3825 · November 26, 2019

@Ganathar.4956 said:
@Neil.3825 said:@Megametzler.5729Is "fire" weaver a problem with staff or dagger or scepter ? I don't think so.Why is it so hard to admite that only sword is a little OP ? Or is there some hidden meta with staff or dagger or scepter ??

That only really shows how much of a crutch sword is. If you remove sword and eles are forced to rely on other weapons, then the class becomes completely worthless. They can reduce the evades, but then they'd have to solve the real issues of the class and nobody trusts them to do it at this point. It has been over 2 years since PoF release and almost nothing has changed if you are using other weapons.

Totally agreed but I'm a dreamer. :p

RedShark.9548 · November 26, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Well, adding those 8seconds to the time the previous post calculated seems quite op to me, but what do i know, im just a warrior monkey.

And ontop its quite hard to tell from animations or buffs that mesmer is invuln, or how long he will remain invuln.

Especially when you have to constantly find him between his clones and other pink fluff flying around the whole screen.

Everything over half a minute of invulns and complete dmg mitigation is completely out of whack and shouldnt be possible.

Leonidrex.5649 · November 26, 2019

@RedShark.9548 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Fueki.4753 said:
@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.