Holo Needs Buffs and Nerfs (Formerly: The recent changes to Holo were good but they weren't enough.)

[Hederrain.9207]

so u cant adjust from elixir holo to protection? count dodges, watch out for stab and punish freely, its that simple now, well its always been that simple. btw if u nerf elixir S i would like some evadeframes on rifle 5 or holo 2

[Nix.3152]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

dude you getting brain farts. holo is potato after nerfs.net shot nerf? that shit misses half of the time.blunderbuss goes on cd without firing if your enemy is running around you.healing turret is the only good heal skill engi has.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Agree with 1) and 2) ; partially with 5) (there needs to be a bigger tell, although same goes for Point-Blank Shot at times).

Everything else is just pointless whining. You increase the cast time on every DPS and healing skill, and we'll have bunker wars 2 where the first guy to eff up loses the game.

[coro.3176]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.

I'll just quote from another thread where I was talking about this:

@coro.3176 said:The self-CC is a very relevant part of the skill and is probably the reason why it is allowed to be instant. There are many situations where OC shot hurts the engi more than it helps:

• If your opponent predicts it and pops reflect, you end up double-CC-ing yourself.
• If your opponent has a passive CC cancel, you end up CC-ing yourself while not CC-ing them.
• If you are in a 1v2, you may CC one of the players, but the other will jump on you while you're self-CCd

Now, most holosmiths will avoid this by combining it with a stability skill to negate the self-CC. I personally don't think this should work, but even still. It's using 2 skills to achieve 1 CC. That no longer makes it an instant CC since you need to use another skill (most with their own cast times) first in order to prevent the self-knockback.

Back when I used to run core rifle engi, I would have gladly traded all of Overcharged Shot's damage, half its range, and even added a small cast time if it meant avoiding the self-knockback.

So yeah, if you want to take away the self-knockback, I'd be all for adding a cast time to it.

[Falan.1839]

@Foshizle.9802 said:

@Falan.1839 said:

@Foshizle.9802 said:Omg yes, so tired of seeing top 25 players being holo mains. And last patch weapon swapping (ooc) was introduced! I think holo should lose the belt skills in exchange for this, too versatile at the moment. Also put a cast time on holo transformation so I can interrupt it, it's impossible to counter this at the moment too, thank you!

The weapon swap doesn't even work in PvP matches......

It works on the warm up phase so you can still play some mind games on your opponent...Before: "He's gona play rifle, I'll adapt "this" way"....Now: "I have no f...lamingo clue what he's gona bring so I can't prepare".

It's just adding to the no-counterplay factor on holo, bring back balance!

You can just hardswitch the weapon from the inventory too before the game, it literally makes no difference...

The Holo hate has just become borderline irrational, in the PvP someone wanted to tell me that stabi from Corona scales with amounts of targets hit and here this bs is being made up.

[shadowpass.4236]

Guys I'm fine with buffing Holo like removing the self cc on rifle 4, adding stability back to elixir U, etc. etc.

... As long as toxic stuff like instant cast immobilizes/CCs and passive, high uptime reveal traits get nerfed.

Honestly I don't know why you guys continue to say stuff like, "You don't know the class." Because I can play every class and maintain my rating pretty easily. If you really want me to upload a bunch of holo videos following the recent set of nerfs I will.

@"Ouk.5914"

I can fight against Holos, but the fact that I have to blow multiple defensive cooldowns and still have a chance to get hit by the Lock On reveal after I stealth is very annoying.

Watch this shit: look how ridiculous Holo is even after the nerfs and how easy it is to play. The holo is Mrauls, probably the best DH at the moment and a very strong player overall. Doesn't matter I'm outplaying him in a 1v2. He literally just gets to leave the fight for 6 seconds twice every minute with no way for anyone to reactively stop it.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Falan.1839 said:

@Foshizle.9802 said:

@Falan.1839 said:

@Foshizle.9802 said:Omg yes, so tired of seeing top 25 players being holo mains. And last patch weapon swapping (ooc) was introduced! I think holo should lose the belt skills in exchange for this, too versatile at the moment. Also put a cast time on holo transformation so I can interrupt it, it's impossible to counter this at the moment too, thank you!

The weapon swap doesn't even work in PvP matches......

It works on the warm up phase so you can still play some mind games on your opponent...Before: "He's gona play rifle, I'll adapt "this" way"....Now: "I have no f...lamingo clue what he's gona bring so I can't prepare".

It's just adding to the no-counterplay factor on holo, bring back balance!

You can just hardswitch the weapon from the inventory too before the game, it literally makes no difference...

The Holo hate has just become borderline irrational, in the PvP someone wanted to tell me that stabi from Corona scales with amounts of targets hit and here this bs is being made up.

The stability from Corona Burst does scale with the amount of targets hit...

[shadowpass.4236]

@coro.3176 said:So yeah, if you want to take away the self-knockback, I'd be all for adding a cast time to it.

Yeah. Perfectly fine with buffing the rifle 4 skill by removing the self-knockback. A visible animation and cast time (1/2 seconds is already very short) would just be a healthy change overall because it gives the enemy something to react to before they just get immobilized for 2 seconds and/or knocked back off point with no tell at all.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Nix.3152 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

dude you getting brain farts. holo is potato after nerfs.net shot nerf? that kitten misses half of the time.blunderbuss goes on cd without firing if your enemy is running around you.healing turret is the only good heal skill engi has.

Holo is fine. Mesmer is fine. A lot of these "nerfed" builds are fine.

If you want me to upload some videos of me playing Holo post-nerf I will record a few to demonstrate how lame Lock On, Toss Elixir S, and rifle instant cast immobs/CCs are.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Zephoid.4263 said:Agree on stealth nerf. Why does engy have stealth? Why is it a toolbelt skill that is superior to almost every other stealth skill in this game? Why is the cooldown so low? There needs to be something done here. I'm really tired of stealth->overcharged shot-> forge-> leap->corona burst. 'Just dodge the CC from stealth'.

Agreed on net shot. Why do we have any offensive 0 cast time weapon skills left in this game?

Agree on lock on. Tie the cooldowns together and its fine.

Everything else no. Heals with short cast times provide counterplay to burst. Almost no other class has a viable 1s heal, so why are we trying to nerf holo to have one? Increase the CD if anything. Some better animations would be nice, but the problem with holo isn't animations.

All high-impact heals like Healing Turret, False Oasis, and Troll Unguent should have at least a 1 second cast time to allow players with quick reaction times to interrupt even if they aren't playing classes with instant/near-instant CCs like Mantra of Distraction, Steal, Headshot, etc. etc.

Currently, these healing skills provide a near-unstoppable source of sustain for already tanky builds. I'm happy you agree with the rest of my suggestions but I wanted to explain why I think increasing each of the cast times on these heal skills by (a very small) 1/4 second would be good for the game.

[shadowpass.4236]

Also, I'm all for build diversity...

I didn't (and still don't) agree with the removal of Elixir U's stab duration but traits like Lock On, instant immobs/ccs on rifle, free 6s stealth resets every 30 seconds from Toss Elixir S, and extremely difficult to interrupt, powerful healing skills like Healing Turret need to be addressed first.

Photon Forge autos already do more damage than basically every other auto attack chain in the game... but they also have double the range... that's just poor class design.

Corona Burst's stab should be moved entirely to the first pulse... One attack shouldn't require two defensive abilities to avoid. The current iteration just puts the Holo ahead of cooldowns/gives them a massive advantage every time they use the ability simply because the enemy is forced to trade 2 cooldowns for 1 or risk giving the enemy stability.

[mortrialus.3062]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:Agree on stealth nerf. Why does engy have stealth? Why is it a toolbelt skill that is superior to almost every other stealth skill in this game? Why is the cooldown so low? There needs to be something done here. I'm really tired of stealth->overcharged shot-> forge-> leap->corona burst. 'Just dodge the CC from stealth'.

Agreed on net shot. Why do we have any offensive 0 cast time weapon skills left in this game?

Agree on lock on. Tie the cooldowns together and its fine.

Everything else no. Heals with short cast times provide counterplay to burst. Almost no other class has a viable 1s heal, so why are we trying to nerf holo to have one? Increase the CD if anything. Some better animations would be nice, but the problem with holo isn't animations.

All high-impact heals like Healing Turret, False Oasis, and Troll Unguent should have at least a 1 second cast time to allow players with quick reaction times to interrupt even if they aren't playing classes with instant/near-instant CCs like Mantra of Distraction, Steal, Headshot, etc. etc.

Currently, these healing skills provide a near-unstoppable source of sustain for already tanky builds. I'm happy you agree with the rest of my suggestions but I wanted to explain why I think increasing each of the cast times on these heal skills by (a very small) 1/4 second would be good for the game.

While longer cast times would be nice (I personally think Fasle Oasis should have at least 1.25s) I think the sheer overtuned amount of healing on healing turret and the immense utility provided by false Oasis on top of excellent healing justifies nerfing their base healing numbers by 15-25%

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Nix.3152 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

dude you getting brain farts. holo is potato after nerfs.net shot nerf? that kitten misses half of the time.blunderbuss goes on cd without firing if your enemy is running around you.healing turret is the only good heal skill engi has.

Holo is fine. Mesmer is fine. A lot of these "nerfed" builds are fine.

If you want me to upload some videos of me playing Holo post-nerf I will record a few to demonstrate how lame Lock On, Toss Elixir S, and rifle instant cast immobs/CCs are.

Nah you don't get it. Holo is "dead" now. It is "absolutely worthless". If you play it now you'll just tank down to bronze 3.

[Vancho.8750]

One of the issues i see with holo is that it was designed to be all in melee damage dealer with the sword and all but in the end the rifle that is utility and set up weapon for core engi works better on holo since it no longer needs to be in melee range when out of forge and it can set up its burst of the forge with rifle.

[Chaith.8256]

@shadowpass.4236 said:The stability from Corona Burst does scale with the amount of targets hit...

But you claim to play Holo? Log in for one second, go to the center of the 16 Champion Target Golems in the mists, and use Corona Burst

[mortrialus.3062]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:The stability from Corona Burst

does

scale with the amount of targets hit...

But you claim to play Holo? Log in for one second, go to the center of the 16 Champion Target Golems in the mists, and use Corona Burst

It definitely used to. I remember a very recent patch note saying they fixed a bug that caused it to gain more stability than intended when striking multiple targets.

As a mesmer, I'm pretty used to seeing holos cleave my clones and phantasms and gaining like 6-10 stacks of stability.

[Chaith.8256]

@mortrialus.3062 said:I remember a very recent patch note saying they fixed a bug that caused it to gain more stability than intended when striking multiple targets.

Which patch?

[mortrialus.3062]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:I remember a very recent patch note saying they fixed a bug that caused it to gain more stability than intended when striking multiple targets.

Which patch?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/92410/game-update-notes-november-19-2019#latest

• Crystal Configuration: Eclipse: Fixed a bug that caused this trait to grant more stability than intended.

I guess we don't know for certain if it was a problem with multi targets granting more stability. But I did used to frequently see Holosmiths fighting with up to 10 stacks of stability.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:The stability from Corona Burst

does

scale with the amount of targets hit...

But you claim to play Holo? Log in for one second, go to the center of the 16 Champion Target Golems in the mists, and use Corona Burst

I play every class, and I don't say things for the sake of saying them.

If I complain about a certain aspect of a class it's because I can and HAVE abused it pretty heavily as well.

I'm not trying to dig at you but you didn't know you could blast a single Healing Turret water field on Prot Holo upwards of 8 times consistently (or more with some utility changes)... I had to make a video to prove it to you even though I have significantly less time played on this class in comparison. I used to theorycraft pretty heavily for every class, so I'm well aware of what every single trait/utility/weaponskill/etc. etc. does and have experience playing an immense amount of build combinations.

@Chaith.8256 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I remember a very recent patch note saying they fixed a bug that caused it to gain more stability than intended when striking multiple targets.

Which patch?

I haven't tested it yet but if Mortrialus is correct and it was patched out in November, Corona Burst used to give 2 stacks of stab per target hit up to 5 targets. So, it usually ended up granting the Holo a consistent 10 stacks of stab in team fights. I haven't really been home these past few weeks so I haven't had the time to follow the recent patch notes.

[Pengu.7481]

this 10 stack of stab seems wierd to me. if it was a bug then it must have been a pretty quick fixed one, ive never seen this before when i played. then again, if corona burst did give 1 stack for 5 targets then u would have 10 stack of stab for 0,45 second with demo/leadership since thats all the duration overlap from the 2 waves of stab allow.unless u run deviner ofc xD

meh i dunno, dosnt seem "game-changing" to me.

edit: i wouldnt call 10 stack of stab for 0.45 sec consistent when its depending on hitting 5 targets twice in teamfights when ppl know to dodge holo 3 and u most likely arent close to 5 ppl all the time either. situational at best. but i dont disagree that the bug should be fixed

[shadowpass.4236]

@"toxic.3648" said:this 10 stack of stab seems wierd to me. if it was a bug then it must have been a pretty quick fixed one, ive never seen this before when i played. then again, if corona burst did give 1 stack for 5 targets then u would have 10 stack of stab for 0,45 second with demo/leadership since thats all the duration overlap from the 2 waves of stab allow.unless u run deviner ofc xD

meh i dunno, dosnt seem "game-changing" to me.

The "bug" has been in the game since Path of Fire came out.

iirc the downtime in stability uptime if the Holo used Corona Burst off cooldown was less than a second.

[Pengu.7481]

it has not. ive played holo since release and ive never seen this. if the bug was rly a thing then im quite surprised that ppl are only finding out about it 2 years later.

stab downtime from using only corona burst off cd is 1,5 second . and we cant spam it recklessly since we need to vent heat. btw venting heat from 99 to full 0 with adrenalin inpact and vigor takes 11.5 seconds, and thats with spamming 3 dodges. so u got time to pwn that holo since elixir u stab isnt a thing anymore.

edit: i cant do math for shit atm, stab downtime is 0.5 sec on holo 3 yea

[shadowpass.4236]

@toxic.3648 said:it has not. ive played holo since release and ive never seen this. if the bug was rly a thing then im quite surprised that ppl are only finding out about it 2 years later.

stab downtime from using only corona burst off cd is 1,5 second . and we cant spam it recklessly since we need to vent heat. btw venting heat from 99 to full 0 with adrenalin inpact and vigor takes 11.5 seconds, and thats with spamming 3 dodges. so u got time to pwn that holo since elixir u stab isnt a thing anymore.

I thought Corona Burst giving up to 10 stacks of stab was common knowledge at this point tbh. It's been doing this from as far back as I can remember, didn't even realize it was bugged.

[Pengu.7481]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"toxic.3648" said:it has not. ive played holo since release and ive never seen this. if the bug was rly a thing then im quite surprised that ppl are only finding out about it 2 years later.

stab downtime from using only corona burst off cd is 1,5 second . and we cant spam it recklessly since we need to vent heat. btw venting heat from 99 to full 0 with adrenalin inpact and vigor takes 11.5 seconds, and thats with spamming 3 dodges. so u got time to pwn that holo since elixir u stab isnt a thing anymore.

I thought Corona Burst giving up to 10 stacks of stab was common knowledge at this point tbh. It's been doing this from as far back as I can remember, didn't even realize it was bugged.

no idea how it can be common knowledge when its wrong , @3:05 he hits 3 targets with 1 corona burst , get 1 stack of stab

my question, where is the 2 other stacks?

[Pengu.7481]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:I'm not trying to dig at you but you didn't know you could blast a single Healing Turret water field on Prot Holo upwards of 8 times consistently (or more with some utility changes)... I had to make a video to prove it to you even though I have significantly less time played on this class in comparison. I used to theorycraft pretty heavily for every class, so I'm well aware of what every single trait/utility/weaponskill/etc. etc. does and have experience playing an immense amount of build combinations.

I haven't tested it yet but if Mortrialus is correct and it was patched out in November, Corona Burst used to give 2 stacks of stab per target hit up to 5 targets. So, it usually ended up granting the Holo a consistent 10 stacks of stab in team fights. I haven't really been home these past few weeks so I haven't had the time to follow the recent patch notes.

I thought Corona Burst giving up to 10 stacks of stab was common knowledge at this point tbh. It's been doing this from as far back as I can remember, didn't even realize it was bugged.

btw these statements contradict eachother, first telling engi main player u know better. then getting surprised at 10 stack stab being a thing. then to switch to "knew all along" xD

[apharma.3741]

Corona Burst with Crystal Configuration: Eclipse was always meant to give 1 stack per pulse not per target hit, it clearly states this in the description. The getting more stab was a bug and it was around for quite a while.

Corona Burst grants stability on each attack and creates a barrier for each target struck.Barrier per Hit: 374 (0.115)?Stability (2s): Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared or taunted.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Configuration:_Eclipse

Edit: In it's original form the stability granted as per the wording was per attack and was applied regardless, it was then changed to require hitting a target, I believe it's about that time it started granting more than 1 stack per attack. Not sure about the last part but I'm sure @Chaith.8256 can correct me if I'm wrong about when the bug was introduced.