Do not let Bunker Firebrand go unnoticed.....we need boonstrip/counter in PvP

[Arheundel.6451]

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Firebrand_-_Mantra_Bunker

It's out ther, it's extremely bunkering, it's being used both in PvP and wvw , it's the main reason we need scourge and spellbreaker and if you take them out...you will see a meta with 2-3 firebrand bunker per team for the next 2-3 years

[Kuya.6495]

Despite you making a vain attempt to protect your class from a nerf, you're not wrong.

Bunker FB is very strong and once SB and Scourge go away, stacking FBs is gonna happen.

[NotoriousNaru.1705]

Lol you guys are so ignorant it blows my mind. Why would anyone stack double support? Has there ever been a case of tempests being stacked for the 2 years its been the only meta support? Support in ranked Q will always be bad because you are extremely limited in what you do. And no competent pvp team doing a ugo or a monthly at will run double support.

[Kuya.6495]

I think the issue isn't with competitive pvp. and the comparison being made for bunker fb isnt really with tempest, but more with s1 bunker mes. Bunker fb supports better than auramancer and can bunk better than tempest too. You can easily stall a 2v1 and if the enemy is bad enough up to a 3v1.

Note I'm not saying fb is broken right now. Just that the op is right: bunker fb is harder to kill without scourge being op.

I wouldn't include sb since i don't personally have trouble surviving them and they don't really eat up my resources like scourges do.

[Arheundel.6451]

@NotoriousNaru.1705 said:Lol you guys are so ignorant it blows my mind. Why would anyone stack double support? Has there ever been a case of tempests being stacked for the 2 years its been the only meta support? Support in ranked Q will always be bad because you are extremely limited in what you do. And no competent pvp team doing a ugo or a monthly at will run double support.

Because we don't know all variations of FB yet, some incorporate burn spikes with F1 and 1-2 mantra, from magi to sage and you have new options ...once your counter stop to exist

[witcher.3197]

@Kuya.6495 said:I think the issue isn't with competitive pvp. and the comparison being made for bunker fb isnt really with tempest, but more with s1 bunker mes. Bunker fb supports better than auramancer and can bunk better than tempest too. You can easily stall a 2v1 and if the enemy is bad enough up to a 3v1.

Note I'm not saying fb is broken right now. Just that the op is right: bunker fb is harder to kill without scourge being op.

I wouldn't include sb since i don't personally have trouble surviving them and they don't really eat up my resources like scourges do.

Bunker FB has no defensive procs or invulnerabilities, (hell not even channeled blocks), a successful coordinated power burst can easily down one.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

@NotoriousNaru.1705 said:Lol you guys are so ignorant it blows my mind. Why would anyone stack double support? Has there ever been a case of tempests being stacked for the 2 years its been the only meta support? Support in ranked Q will always be bad because you are extremely limited in what you do. And no competent pvp team doing a ugo or a monthly at will run double support.

I ran double support before 1 nec support (celestial/plague blindspam) and 1 guard support + 2 roamers going mid with the two supports and one bunker on home, the two roamers go mid initially then basically can roam to home if needed the two supports can hold mid together. If the support is strong enough they would run double support because double support when I ran it how I ran it was doing great and made the game feel atleast somewhat like gw1 and balanced. Random groups conquest gets much worse and nothing is teamfights atleast team queing I was able to kinda force the fights I wanted.

[troops.8276]

Just wondering....would it make more financial sense to balance a game around the top few percent of the best players or the majority?

[Skittledness.5106]

@troops.8276 said:Just wondering....would it make more financial sense to balance a game around the top few percent of the best players or the majority?

Maybe so that players have something to work up towards and removing all sort of counter play to make the game easier will do nothing but dumb down the game.Despite anets refusal to give us any sort of 5v5 team environment(Bo1 class stacking Automated tournaments do not count)There are still players that want to play competitively.If you look at any competetive pvp based game they balanced from top down not bottom up.

Dragging down the skill ceiling will improve nothing to the game and if anet were to listen to you the game would be nothing but Rock Paper Scissors.

[troops.8276]

Assume much

[Lighter.5631]

@troops.8276 said:Just wondering....would it make more financial sense to balance a game around the top few percent of the best players or the majority?

not that i want the game to be balanced around top players or pvp only but??just wondering how can you balance around the 90% of the population, when the low 90% and mid 50% have a huge difference in terms of skill level, just as much of a difference as mid 50% to top 10%...

you are talking like everyone except top percent player share the same skill level, let along skill settings can be different depends on on wvw or pvp

[R E F L H E X.8413]

@Skittledness.5106 said:

@troops.8276 said:Just wondering....would it make more financial sense to balance a game around the top few percent of the best players or the majority?if anet were to listen to you the game would be nothing but Rock Paper Scissors.

The way I've seen manipulations for rank/matchs since gw1 that is clearly not the right way to think.

[troops.8276]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@troops.8276 said:Just wondering....would it make more financial sense to balance a game around the top few percent of the best players or the majority?

not that i want the game to be balanced around top players or pvp only but??just wondering how can you balance around the 90% of the population, when the low 90% and mid 50% have a huge difference in terms of skill level, just as much of a difference as mid 50% to top 10%...

I have no answer, it is obviously a tricky problem that many games suffer from not just this one but that's the point, its not so easy to just do x, y and z.Too high a skill ceiling and you will exclude a large part of your potential playerbase from having fun and ultimately participating.Too low and the game may be dull. I don't think any game of this format has nailed it yet.

IMO a company must think about longevity and profit or they'll go under and then all is vain.

Profits v human behaviour are the meta.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

I never thought I'd change my core block heal on guard this mantra is kinda strong I replaced the shout with smite conditions. It's a decent support.

[Zoltreez.6435]

@NotoriousNaru.1705 said:Lol you guys are so ignorant it blows my mind. Why would anyone stack double support? Has there ever been a case of tempests being stacked for the 2 years its been the only meta support? Support in ranked Q will always be bad because you are extremely limited in what you do. And no competent pvp team doing a ugo or a monthly at will run double support.

i Still remember the 2-3 stacked cele eles that cannot die together from an old season thank you very much................

also bunker meta as a whole where the 1st team that got the point won because no one was able to kill anyone......... its easy to see why people would stack bunker support builds... it already happened once and lasted damn long........

it was even the Tournament META lol...........

[Darknicrofia.2604]

The bunker FB build is NOWHERE near as aids as the bunker Mes build was in season 1, it has no traited anti-cc procs and no invuln skills and has no disengage mobility.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

Seems a ranger/druid can easily solo this "bunker". and I don't mind two supports + 1 bunker per team support and bunker are different. I'd throw this more in the support than selfish bunker.

Bunker is something I dont care if he can support or not as long as he can stay alive solo a very long time.

Support is something that supports allies with himself who should also be able to stay alive under pressure but maybe not as long by himself.

[Exciton.8942]

We will see.

This support spec competes with tempest healer. If it proves to make tempest obsolete, then we may consider tuning it down.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

I was forgetting tome 3's projectile hate during those encounters it could prove a little more tricky to kill solo for those rangers. They really stood out though for soloing it without the projectile hate being used.

[Impact.2780]

Scourge... Reaper... Necro... Thief... Daredevil... Spellbreaker... Revenant... All these have boon removal (mesmer omitted).

Nerfing one......does not necessarily mean it will no longer provide a valuable role which includes the removal of boons;...gives other classes and builds a chance to step up and fill the role (his applies to all classes including Firebrand, Spellbreaker and Scourge).

On a not entirely unrelated note......there hasn't been a full bunker/support build in the meta since 2014 when Elementalist replaced bunker Guardian, and as a result of Engineer replacing hambow Warrior, when Guardian tried to comeback, shoutbow Warrior which did more damage and was more mobile came in instead;...dagger/focus Tempest has been invaluable since HoT to control the damage of Dragonhunter and has always been key in preventing longbow Ranger from becoming meta (before HoT it saw occasional use on Legacy of the Foefire in ESL tournaments);...In POF we still have Dragonhunter, Ranger, and now Deadeye that need to be kept under control; Guardian has limited projectile-hate, as does Engineer and Druid, while dagger/focus Elementalist/Tempest and especially Weaver (due to speed at which you can return to earth for the protection uptime and Earth#2) has amazing projectile hate and can single handedly neutralise those three projectile-based builds in team fights.

It is not even sure that Firebrand will be meta. Given the past, and what other classes are currently capable of, I find it much more likely that D/F Weaver will be in the meta performing the role of support instead of Firebrand because it has projectile-hate, more damage, and this is without even considering the fact that the Celestial amulet is likely to return next week. Furthermore, Weaver stands to be a much more effective supporter than Elementalist and Tempest have ever been, because of the ability to truly capitalise on Elemental Attunement, and it now has something it has always sorely lacked - stability near on-demand for stomping and reviving,

Side note: I do not believe Guardian will be out of the meta entirely. I think it will have a team-fight role to play, but as Dragonhunter because of its ability to protect its team from hits while cleaving and reviving, and it can deal with conditions well.

[garkos.2973]

@Kuya.6495 said:I think the issue isn't with competitive pvp. and the comparison being made for bunker fb isnt really with tempest, but more with s1 bunker mes. Bunker fb supports better than auramancer and can bunk better than tempest too. You can easily stall a 2v1 and if the enemy is bad enough up to a 3v1.

Note I'm not saying fb is broken right now. Just that the op is right: bunker fb is harder to kill without scourge being op.

I wouldn't include sb since i don't personally have trouble surviving them and they don't really eat up my resources like scourges do.

yea that is if you try to kill the support with 3 supports yourself roflmao

[Loop.8106]

Firebrand right now is crazy strong due to the overwhelming amount of condis in the meta. Scourges, Mirages, other Firebrands and even Warrior full counters (due to the previous classes listed). They do however MELT to power based damage. Holosmith, Hammer guard and Rev can easily pressure a Firebrand by themselves. I agree that they need to be toned down if the other specs are also brought in line.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

You want support to be strong otherwise its useless.

I could see dual celestial firebrand or 1 celestial alteration and 1 magi being a decent backline for mid fights used in a team comp. paired with two roamers of choice + a bunker for home. Preferably roamers that can teamfight.

[Rym.1469]

Agreed, it might be a sleeper for the general public (mostly because it doesn't kill anyone), but every decent player is aware of it's power.

A support spec that can withstand Scourge focus pressure on point and then some is not a joke. It's miles better than Tempest.

I don't see three or so bunker firebrands becoming meta or something, but even one can, with no scourge&spellbreaker pressure, practically negate most of the damage in teamfight. A shave here and there is certainly needed to keep it in a healthy state.

[Rodzynald.5897]

@Loop.8106 said:Firebrand right now is crazy strong due to the overwhelming amount of condis in the meta. Scourges, Mirages, other Firebrands and even Warrior full counters (due to the previous classes listed). They do however MELT to power based damage. Holosmith, Hammer guard and Rev can easily pressure a Firebrand by themselves. I agree that they need to be toned down if the other specs are also brought in line.

Spot on. Mantra bunker is strong, like crazy strong. But to decent Firebrands I am capable of 1v1'ing them with hammer guard to force them to run away or, if I am lucky enough, even kill one (but that just when the bunker is really bad at using his cooldowns). The trick is to focus them when they use tomes because they either are forced to burst out all pages asap, or drop the tome without using any pages to get into weapon utility so that they can defend themselves. They are just like necros in the way that they are very strong if protected and unfocused. Thus is it good for AT and not really for ranked/unranked due to lack of overall coordination in those modes. But overall I wouldn't nerf it just yet, we still need to play more against it. During beta weekends support FB was trash tier. Let's all focus on its weak sides that are power burst damage and lack of mobility. I've also noticed that catching them when they traverse between points, especially solo, makes them extra vulnerable. That's because they either are forced to use cooldowns to save themselves, thus entering a teamfight without all cooldowns, or die out while trying to save those cooldowns for later. So all in all they shine best in a teamfight or 1v1/2 against sustained power damage/condition damage. Either keep your eyes open for when they open tomes, or try to rotate more, because their lack of mobility will keep them running, most probably ending their lives in off-point fights when they can't support anyone, and nobody can defend them if needed.

P.S.I like the FB avatar but I don't play one, so no, I do not defend this spec. I just try to point out that they have very strong sides as well as easily exploitable weaknesses, which are quite alright in my book.