Pvp Balance Suggestions (skip to 20 mins in)

Vallun.2071 · January 7, 2020

Also I apologize to any weavers, I didnt read one of the traits correctly, but did suggest a nerf on the barrier grandmaster that grimjack suggested nerfing to me before. So if you dont believe me at least believe him

Vallun.2071 · January 7, 2020

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"Vallun.2071" said:Buff Swipe to 900 Range

Yeah, no. If anything should be happening to Swipe it should be it loses Unblockable so taking daredevil is an actual trade off, rather than this wishy washy "We know thieves will get TOO mad if it loses range so let's give them Unblockable on a skill that is already one of the most impactful and least counterplayable things in the game."

You realize that core thieves have 1200 range steal right? Is the issue that swipe has unblockable or that it can have range? Also the trade off to daredevil is already exhaustion, if you want to make that argument. The only thing you have an issue with is that steal gives plasma, lets be honest youre a biased mesmer main. I'd be fine with a plasma nerf too but tbh its sort of irrelevant now that thieves dont even take deadly arts anymore.

Sigmoid.7082 · January 7, 2020

@Vallun.2071 said:
@"Cheeseball C.8395" said:56:25 "so basically another issue here, just like lightning strike, is core necros have a instant cast fear!"
... kept watching and the only reason for nerf suggestion was just because it's instant? Then by that logic nerf thief steal to have a visual cast time rather than being instant lol.
The reaper build i use for 5v5s are very unfavorable for 1v1s and reaper is one of the easiest classes to 2v1 which is why it's generally bad to take 1v1s on reaper. It's ability to gank hard high risk high reward is part of it's identity as a team main damage role which takes part in stopping bunker metas from emerging. People generally don't cry for reaper nerfs because it is the class with the obvious weakness of no access to complete damage nullification other than their base 2 dodges hence making them being targets the more consistent to not lose value from.
The class balance suggestions from the video seems to be taken for more of a 1v1 type balance which the game isn't meant for. I couldn't find any explanations on how any of these suggestions would effect other classes as a whole. I think the concept of conquest, the impact to the meta, and the weakness of all classes should be considered and explained to make these suggestions a little more convincing. A true balance to 1v1 is literally making every class the same and I think people would rather have the classes all have their own identity.
The title should be Changes "i want" rather than putting "WE" because there was not any mention of anyone else's opinions on their classes and others.

except the difference is that steal does nothing until 6 traits are devoted to it and it is the main class mechanic of thief, meanwhile necros have an instant cast 3 sec cc that ticks damage

Are you adding all the traits + condi duration gear + 600 range threshold to doom to make it sounds a lot better for your point? If your point is steal is bad without traits, doom isn't that great either without them. Also saying steal is a main class mechanic but seemingly ignoring doom being part of shroud which is again a main class mechanic.

All for doom getting a small cast time due to being instant hard CC but something has to give. Range threshold or something else.

Also:

@Vallun.2071 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Vallun.2071 said:Buff Swipe to 900 Range

Yeah, no. If anything should be happening to Swipe it should be it loses Unblockable so taking daredevil is an actual trade off, rather than this wishy washy "We know thieves will get TOO mad if it loses range so let's give them Unblockable on a skill that is already one of the most impactful and least counterplayable things in the game."

Also the trade off to daredevil is already exhaustion, if you want to make that argument.

The trade-off really is the range. You don't gain exhaustion unless you take Unhindered Combatant. The trade-offs are something at a class mechanic level. I also feel the shorter range thematically fits what they were trying to achieve with DrD compared to core.

Cheeseball C.8395 · January 7, 2020

@Vallun.2071 said:
@"Cheeseball C.8395" said:56:25 "so basically another issue here, just like lightning strike, is core necros have a instant cast fear!"
... kept watching and the only reason for nerf suggestion was just because it's instant? Then by that logic nerf thief steal to have a visual cast time rather than being instant lol.
The reaper build i use for 5v5s are very unfavorable for 1v1s and reaper is one of the easiest classes to 2v1 which is why it's generally bad to take 1v1s on reaper. It's ability to gank hard high risk high reward is part of it's identity as a team main damage role which takes part in stopping bunker metas from emerging. People generally don't cry for reaper nerfs because it is the class with the obvious weakness of no access to complete damage nullification other than their base 2 dodges hence making them being targets the more consistent to not lose value from.
The class balance suggestions from the video seems to be taken for more of a 1v1 type balance which the game isn't meant for. I couldn't find any explanations on how any of these suggestions would effect other classes as a whole. I think the concept of conquest, the impact to the meta, and the weakness of all classes should be considered and explained to make these suggestions a little more convincing. A true balance to 1v1 is literally making every class the same and I think people would rather have the classes all have their own identity.
The title should be Changes "i want" rather than putting "WE" because there was not any mention of anyone else's opinions on their classes and others.

except the difference is that steal does nothing until 6 traits are devoted to it and it is the main class mechanic of thief, meanwhile necros have an instant cast 3 sec cc that ticks damage, thieves dont even take deadly arts anymore, thats how irrelevant steal is and it does no damage now and only a boon steal and 1 sec daze. Your arguments seem to be changes only you want to prevent because youre a biased necro main. Meanwhile I play your class better than you and still want my main to be nerfed more. Good attempt at a discussion, but just skipping to the necro part and assuming i dont nerf anything else (btw i nerf thief harder in my suggestions than i do necro since you didnt watch) isn't really proving much.

1:13:05 "If you think otherwise though, let me know in the comments if you think my suggestions are bad or if they are extremely biased... let me know lets discuss the game because that is how it becomes better." Literally at the end of the video you blocked the dislike bar and comments for. "meanwhile i play your class better than you..." getting personal over arguments you welcomed discussions for at the end of your video is what I would call unwelcoming, condescending and dishonest.

"except the difference is that steal does nothing until 6 traits are devoted to it ..."has nothing to do with the point of your argument that core necro needs to remove the instant cast of it's shroud 3 because "it's instant." Reaper needs to commit a trait-line for spite and or soul reaping to have self might and high burst damage could be seen as the same argument however like your quote, it steers the attention away from the point I stated.

"thieves dont even take deadly arts anymore" ..

steal traits are in trickery which almost all thieves use all the time but it isn't even the point of what I said.

I'm pointing out the lack of elaboration and reasoning of your suggestions for nerfs. Saying someone wants their own main nerfed more does not justify anyone throwing nerfs at other classes or even on their own main that other people play with no clear productive reasoning of it's impact on spvp as a whole.

"Your arguments seem to be changes only you want to prevent because youre a biased necro main." Yeah I have a favorite class I like to play so i'm very prone to being biased towards it just like everyone else who plays this game.

"...assuming i dont nerf anything else isn't really proving much (proving what)/ since you didnt watch" Making instant assumptions that people did not watch the video you spent a lot of time making just because they talked about class they are known for can be taken as insulting for those who actually bothered spending some of their time to watch. And from MY watching, still most of the suggestions "nerf bulls rush because it's high impact" "remove the weakness from mantra of truth because it's cover condi and weakness isn't something gaurdian should be giving" "nerf ranger longbow range to 1200 because it's too long and makes it unfun for wvw" While you gave some good points that many may agree with, you focused only the skills themselves for the class they belong to (based on how your "feel" on their effectiveness) WITHOUT mentioning anything how it positively or negatively affects any of the other classes builds and roles in spvp since you are going out of your way to discuss changes for ALL classes. Once scourge got one change to the mechanic of their shades no longer working on themselves, there is a noticeable decline in scourge play in competitive spvp anymore which in my opinion impacted spvp as an indirect buff to builds with many boons like holos, revs and firebrands to be more prominent in the meta. The rise of meta power rev builds after the initial HoT bunker meta in 2015 nerf made power reapers less viable in higher tier play. Inputting so many changes, although with good intent, without considering how it affects everything else may lead to unwanted problems that weren't intended.

This content creator feedback felt a little defensive, toxic and condescending rather than a productive discussion about how the game can be improved with the help of diverse point of views.

The Mighty Lu Bu disapproves 0 points. I expected better.

bravan.3876 · January 7, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Your sentence i read like: Unblockable never matters except when the target blocks, then it is the only time it matters... that sounds like pretty funny nonsense.

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Please what?

Whats so confusing about it? Your Swipe is a key interrupt cooldown. Especially in S/P builds where your interrupts are otherwise inefficient (headshot) or slow to use (Pistol Whip). You want to use it to stop their big hits, or healing skills, or whatever. You really dont want to waste it on a block, because they cant hit you back, and theyre just delaying you. Well, unless theyre already close to death, but at that point you might as well just wait a couple seconds.

Also ofc it is a big advantage that you can steal into blocks, do you have any clue how hard you can kitten up defensive rotations with it? Maybe we just play different (/s) but if i see someone block with me having Swipe not on cd its my most loved moment to use it (also what @mortrialus.3062 said) . In my view an instant range skill should never be unblockable. Just give it more range as compensation for removing the unblockable and the skill will be more balanced and less clunky in one step.

But seems like Anet is on the way to destroy each elite spec with this nonsense trade off kitten and make them unfun, clunky and killing gameplay flow without even adding any skill ceiling or floor during that (in case of Swipe even quite the opposite). Hopefully that is happening because of a planned xpac to sell the new not clunky, not unfun and then only playable elite specs and not just out of incompetence...

Blocking, as in active, channeled block. There is Aegis, which it would actually be great for. That is, if you didnt boonrip Aegis prior to applying the Daze anyway. But you do, so it isnt. And as for active channeled block, yeah its just a complete waste on it. Congratulations, you interrupted their block. Now they use their heal skill and youre looking dumb without your interrupting steal. Kind of awkward, isnt it?

I was also only talking about blocks not the boon aegis. Traited Steal will remove aegis, stabi with prio too, strong thing but Steal is not unblockable.So wait, means you use your Swipe only for interrupting heals? For nothing else ever? Must be a pleasure to fight versus your Thief :joy: Whatever if you think the unblockable is an useless feature then you sure don't mind when it will get removed.

Leonidrex.5649 · January 7, 2020

@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Your sentence i read like: Unblockable never matters except when the target blocks, then it is the only time it matters... that sounds like pretty funny nonsense.

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Please what?

Whats so confusing about it? Your Swipe is a key interrupt cooldown. Especially in S/P builds where your interrupts are otherwise inefficient (headshot) or slow to use (Pistol Whip). You want to use it to stop their big hits, or healing skills, or whatever. You really dont want to waste it on a block, because they cant hit you back, and theyre just delaying you. Well, unless theyre already close to death, but at that point you might as well just wait a couple seconds.

Also ofc it is a big advantage that you can steal into blocks, do you have any clue how hard you can kitten up defensive rotations with it? Maybe we just play different (/s) but if i see someone block with me having Swipe not on cd its my most loved moment to use it (also what @mortrialus.3062 said) . In my view an instant range skill should never be unblockable. Just give it more range as compensation for removing the unblockable and the skill will be more balanced and less clunky in one step.

But seems like Anet is on the way to destroy each elite spec with this nonsense trade off kitten and make them unfun, clunky and killing gameplay flow without even adding any skill ceiling or floor during that (in case of Swipe even quite the opposite). Hopefully that is happening because of a planned xpac to sell the new not clunky, not unfun and then only playable elite specs and not just out of incompetence...

Blocking, as in active, channeled block. There is Aegis, which it would actually be great for. That is, if you didnt boonrip Aegis prior to applying the Daze anyway. But you do, so it isnt. And as for active channeled block, yeah its just a complete waste on it. Congratulations, you interrupted their block. Now they use their heal skill and youre looking dumb without your interrupting steal. Kind of awkward, isnt it?

I was also only talking about blocks not the boon aegis. Traited Steal will remove aegis, stabi with prio too, strong thing but Steal is not unblockable.So wait, means you use your Swipe only for interrupting heals? For nothing else ever? Must be a pleasure to fight versus your Thief :joy: Whatever if you think the unblockable is a useless feature then you sure don't mind when it will get removed.

if only thief had other tools to interrupt heals with ease like headshot right?this is the average thief, thinking using steal to rupt block from warrior is a waste of steal becouse he wont be able to interrupt his Op heal XD

bravan.3876 · January 7, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Your sentence i read like: Unblockable never matters except when the target blocks, then it is the only time it matters... that sounds like pretty funny nonsense.

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Please what?

Whats so confusing about it? Your Swipe is a key interrupt cooldown. Especially in S/P builds where your interrupts are otherwise inefficient (headshot) or slow to use (Pistol Whip). You want to use it to stop their big hits, or healing skills, or whatever. You really dont want to waste it on a block, because they cant hit you back, and theyre just delaying you. Well, unless theyre already close to death, but at that point you might as well just wait a couple seconds.

Also ofc it is a big advantage that you can steal into blocks, do you have any clue how hard you can kitten up defensive rotations with it? Maybe we just play different (/s) but if i see someone block with me having Swipe not on cd its my most loved moment to use it (also what @mortrialus.3062 said) . In my view an instant range skill should never be unblockable. Just give it more range as compensation for removing the unblockable and the skill will be more balanced and less clunky in one step.

But seems like Anet is on the way to destroy each elite spec with this nonsense trade off kitten and make them unfun, clunky and killing gameplay flow without even adding any skill ceiling or floor during that (in case of Swipe even quite the opposite). Hopefully that is happening because of a planned xpac to sell the new not clunky, not unfun and then only playable elite specs and not just out of incompetence...

Blocking, as in active, channeled block. There is Aegis, which it would actually be great for. That is, if you didnt boonrip Aegis prior to applying the Daze anyway. But you do, so it isnt. And as for active channeled block, yeah its just a complete waste on it. Congratulations, you interrupted their block. Now they use their heal skill and youre looking dumb without your interrupting steal. Kind of awkward, isnt it?

I was also only talking about blocks not the boon aegis. Traited Steal will remove aegis, stabi with prio too, strong thing but Steal is not unblockable.So wait, means you use your Swipe only for interrupting heals? For nothing else ever? Must be a pleasure to fight versus your Thief :joy: Whatever if you think the unblockable is a useless feature then you sure don't mind when it will get removed.

this is the average thief, thinking using steal to rupt block from warrior is a waste of steal becouse he wont be able to interrupt his Op heal XD

Tbh i also always wait with Swipe use until i can finally interrupt Healing Signet!

:joy:

Curennos.9307 · January 7, 2020

Anywho, to address the OP.

Pistol Whip: I think you're a bit off on your analysis regarding this skill. Now, I don't want to imply that just because a skill has remained (relatively) unchanged for a long time means it's automatically a-okay. I can acknowledge that skills can have a sort of..sleeper OP-ness that can be brought to the fore by changing things the skill interacts with.In this case, though, the things around pistol whip are also OP, and I doubt PW would remain a problem if those things were nerfed to some degree.The first of these is Escapist's Fortitude. It needs some combination of nerfs. Gut/remove the healing, increase the ICD, and so on. It can be compensated with potentially increasing the number of condis cleansed/fiddling with restrictions (removes 2 condis, but only removes 1 non damaging condi and one damaging condi if it does cleanse, for example). DrD already has Marauder's Resilience in the same traitline - giving one trait the ability to combat condi dmg and power to the extent Escp. Fort does totally crams the other trait out of the way. Choice and opportunity cost is good.

Weakening Strikes. I agree that it's OP, but I disagree on how to change it. Outside of evades, thief is very squishy. I would like the trait to serve to provide weakness to COVER the DrD if they go offensive after a dodge. As it is now, they can dodge, evade skill, and so on and just...stack up weakness, gaining a relatively passive benefit. I would change the trait to provide STACKS of Weakening Strikes, all of which make your attacks apply 1 (or 1.1 sec? Who knows) sec of weakness. This would allow the DrD to have some cover/protection if they want to go for a few AAs and so on, while avoiding the dodge -> evade attack, applies 3 sec weakness despite still evading -> dodge -> Another attack with inherent evade, another 3 sec of weakness, and so on. Anet could also attach to the trait a 'must actually evade something' to proc the passive. This would provide some counterplay if needed to help balance things out, though I don't think it'd be needed. Of course, the duration/stacks could be fiddled with, and stacks would be capped to avoid dodgedodgedodge -> gazillion stacks of the skill to achieve the same weakness spam.

Swindler's Equilibrium. Tbh, just remove the extra power - remove BOTH chunks of power if need be and add something else/buff it a little. I am all for stat buffs, but it's just plain unnecessary for a supposed defensive traitline to have an extra 240 power attached to a weapon. I'd also like anet to take a look at DrD's Vigor uptime, primarily via Feline Grace., but to a lesser extent through Bountiful Theft. Concerning Feline Grace - a minor trait probably...shouldn't just flat out give what is essentially to perma-vigor and change. A massive amount of change, actually. I don't mind DrD having perma vigor so much that I mind it having so much vigor that there's basically no way for it to NOT have Vigor, except when it basically does nothing or is dead. I fully expect Anet to shave the duration/slightly increase ICD on Feline Grace, and hopefully they'll shave a bit of Vigor off Bountiful Theft as well. Especially with how low cooldown Swipe gets on Acro DrD's, Bountiful Theft becomes even stronger.

Pain Response and Endless Stamina. For the first...well, mainly this is a 'all the traits that give benefits on dodge should be changed to 'on successful dodge''. Pain Response is getting HIT, which I think not only clashes with the theme of Acro, but negates a drawback - that you have to actually dodge. So, I think the trait could be buffed a little, but changed to cleanse on dodge only if you evade. For Endless Stamina...I often see you using the Unhindered Combatant dodge as a gap closer as well, which to me definitely implies DrD has a tad too much endurance regen. I'd like to remove the concentration bonus and see how that pans out with Vigor uptime. I think the extra conc contributes somewhat to some other issues brought on by Quickness. I hate quickness in pvp. Seeing a DrD PW thief using Haste + BoA is...ugh. That said, I imagine the removal of SIgil of Agility will help somewhat with this, and BoA is on a super long cooldown. Still, I hate what Quickness does to skils

Massive agree on Infiltrator's Strike. I've been bitching about that for a while. Never used shadow portal, but sounds about right.

Concerning Pulminory Impact. I would rather it be changed to a Power DoT. Anet appears to be trying to nudge DrD towards the brawler archetype. Same - (or higher, if need be but I think it'll be fine) damage, but spread out will lessen the burst. Also, moving the damage from the initial hit of Pistol Whip to the slashing part will help a tiny tiny bit as well. Or heck just remove the initial damage, the skill already has a damn 3k-something tooltip anyway. Also, anet could do to PW what they did to Hundred Blades - that is, backload the skill damage. Back to Pulm, but - they could also have it start the ICD/interval on a FAILED interrupt. Anywho, the goal would be to make Pulm the 'wear down' trait, Havoc the burstier one, and then the top trait for...some stuff, who knows.

Agreed on everything up until Shadow's Rejuvination. I agree that it's an issue and contributes to uninteractive stealth gameplay - however, I'm wary of attaching things to revealed. For one, this will have some weird side effects when interacting with other classes. As interesting as it would be to have a powerful health + ini regen and 33% dmg reduction stackable with protection against Magebane tether, I think that might be a bit too much of a somewhat unintended, probably OP side effect. I would rather anet change it to a status effect thingy when coming out of stealth, regardless of revealed 6 seconds, for ~1800 health and 2 ini. What made Shadow Restoration really good was that in stealth you also could not be pressured (very easily, anyway). 300 regen ticking on a thief in stealth is a lot different than 300 regen ticking on a thief out of stealth, vs an extra 300 regen ticking on a warrior out of stealth. That is definitely me being nitpicky about numbers, though, but just wanted to get that out there.

On to Deadeye. I think you're overthinking things. If DE 1-shots are a problem, just utterly gut the damage of stealth attacks when they don't have max malice. Make them totally defensive/utility in nature, or just have them not consume malice (and thus no dmg bonus) when used below max malice while keeping the base damage of the attacks.Agreed on Binding Shadow - adding a reveal to increase counterplay/awareness of the skill will also help quite a bit with the 1-shot rifle issue.I very much disagree with you on Death's Retreat - this skill fills an important gap left by dropping shortbow for rifle. Nerfing it further would be...er, sad. It has shorter range, a cast time (1/4 - not really interruptable, but it slows down the retreat), and damage that prevents you from stealthing and then escaping from melee easily. Also, the ini cost is already 5 - sniper's cover is the one that costs 4, the flip skill when kneeling.

Disclaimer

! Buff the other parts of thief that need help, yadda yadda, maybe undo some buffs/nerfs when other things change, and so on.

TLDR

! You seem to nerf the symptom, not the cause, a lot. DE can be fixed easily by changing the damage on stealth skills in relation to malice, preventing 1-2 malice hard hitting 1-shots. Agree on the DrD stuff, just with some nitpicks over details. I think PW is too strong because the traits that interact with it are too strong, not the other way around.

UNOwen.7132 · January 7, 2020

@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Your sentence i read like: Unblockable never matters except when the target blocks, then it is the only time it matters... that sounds like pretty funny nonsense.

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Please what?

Whats so confusing about it? Your Swipe is a key interrupt cooldown. Especially in S/P builds where your interrupts are otherwise inefficient (headshot) or slow to use (Pistol Whip). You want to use it to stop their big hits, or healing skills, or whatever. You really dont want to waste it on a block, because they cant hit you back, and theyre just delaying you. Well, unless theyre already close to death, but at that point you might as well just wait a couple seconds.

Also ofc it is a big advantage that you can steal into blocks, do you have any clue how hard you can kitten up defensive rotations with it? Maybe we just play different (/s) but if i see someone block with me having Swipe not on cd its my most loved moment to use it (also what @mortrialus.3062 said) . In my view an instant range skill should never be unblockable. Just give it more range as compensation for removing the unblockable and the skill will be more balanced and less clunky in one step.

But seems like Anet is on the way to destroy each elite spec with this nonsense trade off kitten and make them unfun, clunky and killing gameplay flow without even adding any skill ceiling or floor during that (in case of Swipe even quite the opposite). Hopefully that is happening because of a planned xpac to sell the new not clunky, not unfun and then only playable elite specs and not just out of incompetence...

Blocking, as in active, channeled block. There is Aegis, which it would actually be great for. That is, if you didnt boonrip Aegis prior to applying the Daze anyway. But you do, so it isnt. And as for active channeled block, yeah its just a complete waste on it. Congratulations, you interrupted their block. Now they use their heal skill and youre looking dumb without your interrupting steal. Kind of awkward, isnt it?

I was also only talking about blocks not the boon aegis. Traited Steal will remove aegis, stabi with prio too, strong thing but Steal is not unblockable.So wait, means you use your Swipe only for interrupting heals? For nothing else ever? Must be a pleasure to fight versus your Thief :joy: Whatever if you think the unblockable is a useless feature then you sure don't mind when it will get removed.

Nah, interrupting heals, a channeled attack, or any kind of big hard-hitting attack I can react to in time. I dont waste them on blocks. Especially after I started playing against thieves that did, and noticed just how much power they lose as a result of making that mistake. Turns any matchup from potentially challenging to completely free. And in terms of actual impact, yeah I wouldnt mind it being removed, because it doesnt matter. However, in terms of the principle, and the message it sends, I would mind them nerfing Swipe which already isnt exactly great.

UNOwen.7132 · January 7, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Your sentence i read like: Unblockable never matters except when the target blocks, then it is the only time it matters... that sounds like pretty funny nonsense.

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Please what?

Whats so confusing about it? Your Swipe is a key interrupt cooldown. Especially in S/P builds where your interrupts are otherwise inefficient (headshot) or slow to use (Pistol Whip). You want to use it to stop their big hits, or healing skills, or whatever. You really dont want to waste it on a block, because they cant hit you back, and theyre just delaying you. Well, unless theyre already close to death, but at that point you might as well just wait a couple seconds.

Also ofc it is a big advantage that you can steal into blocks, do you have any clue how hard you can kitten up defensive rotations with it? Maybe we just play different (/s) but if i see someone block with me having Swipe not on cd its my most loved moment to use it (also what @mortrialus.3062 said) . In my view an instant range skill should never be unblockable. Just give it more range as compensation for removing the unblockable and the skill will be more balanced and less clunky in one step.

But seems like Anet is on the way to destroy each elite spec with this nonsense trade off kitten and make them unfun, clunky and killing gameplay flow without even adding any skill ceiling or floor during that (in case of Swipe even quite the opposite). Hopefully that is happening because of a planned xpac to sell the new not clunky, not unfun and then only playable elite specs and not just out of incompetence...

Blocking, as in active, channeled block. There is Aegis, which it would actually be great for. That is, if you didnt boonrip Aegis prior to applying the Daze anyway. But you do, so it isnt. And as for active channeled block, yeah its just a complete waste on it. Congratulations, you interrupted their block. Now they use their heal skill and youre looking dumb without your interrupting steal. Kind of awkward, isnt it?

I was also only talking about blocks not the boon aegis. Traited Steal will remove aegis, stabi with prio too, strong thing but Steal is not unblockable.So wait, means you use your Swipe only for interrupting heals? For nothing else ever? Must be a pleasure to fight versus your Thief :joy: Whatever if you think the unblockable is a useless feature then you sure don't mind when it will get removed.

if only thief had other tools to interrupt heals with ease like headshot right?this is the average thief, thinking using steal to rupt block from warrior is a waste of steal becouse he wont be able to interrupt his Op heal XD

Yes, because you want to use 4 intiative on S/P thief where you already rely heavily on your initiative and run out of it very quickly. Or hell, D/P thief where youre even more initiative-hungry and even more quick to dump it. Maybe if Pulmonary Impact wasnt nerfed so hard it basically just tickles, you could justify it, but it was, so its not. Wasting Swipe to interrupt an active channeled block, and then being forced to waste 4 initiative to interrupt the thing you shouldve used Swipe for just means you lose a ton of damage (and even potentially survivability, since theyre not very likely to pop boons before going into active block). Oh and in the case of Warrior, youd want to interrupt Rampage. Theyre not the only class with active blocking, yknow.

ZDragon.3046 · January 7, 2020

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Vallun.2071 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@SeikeNz.3526 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:Maybe people could stop arguing over semantics and word choice when they both really think the same thing but just keep slamming their head against a brick wall for...reasons.
Can we just acknowledge that soulbeast burns a ton of cooldowns to output beefy damage but suffers a pretty suitable amount of downtime and vulnerability for doing so, and has more modifiers scattered about so people see 'kitten there's no boons to justify this'? Yadda yadda could use some shaves, could use some changes to adjust the '1-shot' builds that aren't actually 1-shots but for the love of god don't nitpick.
TLDR the things ranger has to do to 'boom' people for 10k mauls is exploitable. Please go test for yourself how much it takes to reach a 10k maul. Really, I'm fine with the way maul is atm, mostly (why does it give attack of opportunity when it misses and out of combat?)
@shadowpass.4236 I think it was you who made that vid w/the Diviner soulbeast setup? Pretty fun - wish there was a condi amulet that has conc xD
Edit: I'm still trying to reproduce that maul.I'm barely reaching 14k with beast mastery, marksmanship, oppressive superiority from slb, a CC beforehand, fury, and attk of opportunity procced. Zerk amulet and scholar.

why rangers players think that is ok to hit more than 5k with any skill?also 14k for a 4s cd skill is over the top

Yes because rangers are the only class that can hit more than 5k. /s

What a good straw man. You attack the one dude who says something wrong and think it acquits rangers from being able to do very decent damage from ranged and from melee while also having a pet to bait out cds for you while having insane reset potential. You will do anything to avoid nerfs on your class even though you want others to be nerfed. So many people have called you out on your faulty logic in this thread including

you suggesting similar nerfs that you argue would be harder nerfs yet would be non issues (lower duration block rather than loner cooldown)
you recording a video of your attacks doing little damage but refusing to include all of the modifers that any normal ranger would get in a real match
you cherry picking things other classes do better than your class such as holding nodes for weaver, doing interupts for thief, or doing damage for rev, but then refusing to acknowledge all of the things ranger can do better than those classes or even that rangers can do almost as much as those classes but also fulfill multiple roles

Please stop spamming walls of text to drown out any possible disagreements because no one has the time to address every single logical fallacy you use. My ranger nerf suggestions were VERY light. You should be more prone to compromise.

Edit: you also literally said you didnt watch any of the other parts of the video so you saw i wanted ranger to be nerfed and assumed i wasnt nerfing anything else even though the ranger section is very short?

Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
Reduce GS4's block duration to 2 seconds.
Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
Remove Plasma from Siamoth.Tbh i feel like this would just be the start of where the need to go.

Gazelle's charge might even need to deal no damage basically get the "rampage effect" ITs a cc that even with your self nerf would still do a ton of damage. Either take the cc away and reduce the damage a bit or keep the cc and cut the damage down completely. Even the command skill is a cc that deals tons of damage which they have established the idea of removing things like this. I just wanted to point that out.

Generally do still think that stealth access for ranger is higher than it should be but if plasma is removed from play and the block is reduced then it might be ok. Plasma does give them too wide of a boon table for literally everything they have in a single kit build and the damage mods are insane. Right now the loop of stealth access, blocking, and boons providing sustain ontop of the damage, sheer number of cc's between the ranger and its pet overall its a bit much its got to be one of the biggest offenders right now in terms of being imbalanced.

Also lets not slide by "We heal as one" too... depending on if plasma is removed or not thats up for debate too. I would consider that more busted than Troll Unguent.

shadowpass.4236 · January 7, 2020

@ZDragon.3046 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Vallun.2071 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@SeikeNz.3526 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:Maybe people could stop arguing over semantics and word choice when they both really think the same thing but just keep slamming their head against a brick wall for...reasons.
Can we just acknowledge that soulbeast burns a ton of cooldowns to output beefy damage but suffers a pretty suitable amount of downtime and vulnerability for doing so, and has more modifiers scattered about so people see 'kitten there's no boons to justify this'? Yadda yadda could use some shaves, could use some changes to adjust the '1-shot' builds that aren't actually 1-shots but for the love of god don't nitpick.
TLDR the things ranger has to do to 'boom' people for 10k mauls is exploitable. Please go test for yourself how much it takes to reach a 10k maul. Really, I'm fine with the way maul is atm, mostly (why does it give attack of opportunity when it misses and out of combat?)
@shadowpass.4236 I think it was you who made that vid w/the Diviner soulbeast setup? Pretty fun - wish there was a condi amulet that has conc xD
Edit: I'm still trying to reproduce that maul.I'm barely reaching 14k with beast mastery, marksmanship, oppressive superiority from slb, a CC beforehand, fury, and attk of opportunity procced. Zerk amulet and scholar.

why rangers players think that is ok to hit more than 5k with any skill?also 14k for a 4s cd skill is over the top

Yes because rangers are the only class that can hit more than 5k. /s

What a good straw man. You attack the one dude who says something wrong and think it acquits rangers from being able to do very decent damage from ranged and from melee while also having a pet to bait out cds for you while having insane reset potential. You will do anything to avoid nerfs on your class even though you want others to be nerfed. So many people have called you out on your faulty logic in this thread including

you suggesting similar nerfs that you argue would be harder nerfs yet would be non issues (lower duration block rather than loner cooldown)
you recording a video of your attacks doing little damage but refusing to include all of the modifers that any normal ranger would get in a real match
you cherry picking things other classes do better than your class such as holding nodes for weaver, doing interupts for thief, or doing damage for rev, but then refusing to acknowledge all of the things ranger can do better than those classes or even that rangers can do almost as much as those classes but also fulfill multiple roles

Please stop spamming walls of text to drown out any possible disagreements because no one has the time to address every single logical fallacy you use. My ranger nerf suggestions were VERY light. You should be more prone to compromise.

Edit: you also literally said you didnt watch any of the other parts of the video so you saw i wanted ranger to be nerfed and assumed i wasnt nerfing anything else even though the ranger section is very short?

Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
Reduce GS4's block duration to 2 seconds.
Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
Remove Plasma from Siamoth.Tbh i feel like this would just be the start of where the need to go.

Gazelle's charge might even need to deal no damage basically get the "rampage effect" ITs a cc that even with your self nerf would still do a ton of damage. Either take the cc away and reduce the damage a bit or keep the cc and cut the damage down completely. Even the command skill is a cc that deals tons of damage which they have established the idea of removing things like this. I just wanted to point that out.

Generally do still think that stealth access for ranger is higher than it should be but if plasma is removed from play and the block is reduced then it might be ok. Plasma does give them too wide of a boon table for literally everything they have in a single kit build and the damage mods are insane. Right now the loop of stealth access, blocking, and boons providing sustain ontop of the damage, sheer number of cc's between the ranger and its pet overall its a bit much its got to be one of the biggest offenders right now in terms of being imbalanced.

Also lets not slide by "We heal as one" too... depending on if plasma is removed or not thats up for debate too. I would consider that more busted than Troll Unguent.

WHaO heals less than TU so it trades worse in longer fights in exchange for some boon duration.

But yeah the rest of that would fix most of the stronger stuff with ranger imo.

ZDragon.3046 · January 7, 2020

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Vallun.2071 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@SeikeNz.3526 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:Maybe people could stop arguing over semantics and word choice when they both really think the same thing but just keep slamming their head against a brick wall for...reasons.
Can we just acknowledge that soulbeast burns a ton of cooldowns to output beefy damage but suffers a pretty suitable amount of downtime and vulnerability for doing so, and has more modifiers scattered about so people see 'kitten there's no boons to justify this'? Yadda yadda could use some shaves, could use some changes to adjust the '1-shot' builds that aren't actually 1-shots but for the love of god don't nitpick.
TLDR the things ranger has to do to 'boom' people for 10k mauls is exploitable. Please go test for yourself how much it takes to reach a 10k maul. Really, I'm fine with the way maul is atm, mostly (why does it give attack of opportunity when it misses and out of combat?)
@shadowpass.4236 I think it was you who made that vid w/the Diviner soulbeast setup? Pretty fun - wish there was a condi amulet that has conc xD
Edit: I'm still trying to reproduce that maul.I'm barely reaching 14k with beast mastery, marksmanship, oppressive superiority from slb, a CC beforehand, fury, and attk of opportunity procced. Zerk amulet and scholar.

why rangers players think that is ok to hit more than 5k with any skill?also 14k for a 4s cd skill is over the top

Yes because rangers are the only class that can hit more than 5k. /s

What a good straw man. You attack the one dude who says something wrong and think it acquits rangers from being able to do very decent damage from ranged and from melee while also having a pet to bait out cds for you while having insane reset potential. You will do anything to avoid nerfs on your class even though you want others to be nerfed. So many people have called you out on your faulty logic in this thread including

you suggesting similar nerfs that you argue would be harder nerfs yet would be non issues (lower duration block rather than loner cooldown)
you recording a video of your attacks doing little damage but refusing to include all of the modifers that any normal ranger would get in a real match
you cherry picking things other classes do better than your class such as holding nodes for weaver, doing interupts for thief, or doing damage for rev, but then refusing to acknowledge all of the things ranger can do better than those classes or even that rangers can do almost as much as those classes but also fulfill multiple roles

Please stop spamming walls of text to drown out any possible disagreements because no one has the time to address every single logical fallacy you use. My ranger nerf suggestions were VERY light. You should be more prone to compromise.

Edit: you also literally said you didnt watch any of the other parts of the video so you saw i wanted ranger to be nerfed and assumed i wasnt nerfing anything else even though the ranger section is very short?

Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
Reduce GS4's block duration to 2 seconds.
Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
Remove Plasma from Siamoth.Tbh i feel like this would just be the start of where the need to go.

Gazelle's charge might even need to deal no damage basically get the "rampage effect" ITs a cc that even with your self nerf would still do a ton of damage. Either take the cc away and reduce the damage a bit or keep the cc and cut the damage down completely. Even the command skill is a cc that deals tons of damage which they have established the idea of removing things like this. I just wanted to point that out.

Generally do still think that stealth access for ranger is higher than it should be but if plasma is removed from play and the block is reduced then it might be ok. Plasma does give them too wide of a boon table for literally everything they have in a single kit build and the damage mods are insane. Right now the loop of stealth access, blocking, and boons providing sustain ontop of the damage, sheer number of cc's between the ranger and its pet overall its a bit much its got to be one of the biggest offenders right now in terms of being imbalanced.

Also lets not slide by "We heal as one" too... depending on if plasma is removed or not thats up for debate too. I would consider that more busted than Troll Unguent.

WHaO heals less than TU so it trades worse in longer fights in exchange for some boon duration.

But yeah the rest of that would fix most of the stronger stuff with ranger imo.

The issue is not the healing its the boon share effect combined with some soul beast traits but like i said this might depend on plasma. there will still be some niche moments where i see WHaO easily outperforming TU still.

Both WHaO and TU are very very good healing skills actually i personally dont think TU needs changes i would argue that WHaO is the bigger issue just because its secondary effect is so strong for a healing skill and becomes super potent with Soul Beast equipped.

Leonidrex.5649 · January 7, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Your sentence i read like: Unblockable never matters except when the target blocks, then it is the only time it matters... that sounds like pretty funny nonsense.

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters).

Please what?

Whats so confusing about it? Your Swipe is a key interrupt cooldown. Especially in S/P builds where your interrupts are otherwise inefficient (headshot) or slow to use (Pistol Whip). You want to use it to stop their big hits, or healing skills, or whatever. You really dont want to waste it on a block, because they cant hit you back, and theyre just delaying you. Well, unless theyre already close to death, but at that point you might as well just wait a couple seconds.

Also ofc it is a big advantage that you can steal into blocks, do you have any clue how hard you can kitten up defensive rotations with it? Maybe we just play different (/s) but if i see someone block with me having Swipe not on cd its my most loved moment to use it (also what @"mortrialus.3062" said) . In my view an instant range skill should never be unblockable. Just give it more range as compensation for removing the unblockable and the skill will be more balanced and less clunky in one step.

But seems like Anet is on the way to destroy each elite spec with this nonsense trade off kitten and make them unfun, clunky and killing gameplay flow without even adding any skill ceiling or floor during that (in case of Swipe even quite the opposite). Hopefully that is happening because of a planned xpac to sell the new not clunky, not unfun and then only playable elite specs and not just out of incompetence...

Blocking, as in active, channeled block. There is Aegis, which it would actually be great for. That is, if you didnt boonrip Aegis prior to applying the Daze anyway. But you do, so it isnt. And as for active channeled block, yeah its just a complete waste on it. Congratulations, you interrupted their block. Now they use their heal skill and youre looking dumb without your interrupting steal. Kind of awkward, isnt it?

I was also only talking about blocks not the boon aegis. Traited Steal will remove aegis, stabi with prio too, strong thing but Steal is not unblockable.So wait, means you use your Swipe only for interrupting heals? For nothing else ever? Must be a pleasure to fight versus your Thief :joy: Whatever if you think the unblockable is a useless feature then you sure don't mind when it will get removed.

if only thief had other tools to interrupt heals with ease like headshot right?this is the average thief, thinking using steal to rupt block from warrior is a waste of steal becouse he wont be able to interrupt his Op heal XD

Yes, because you want to use 4 intiative on S/P thief where you already rely heavily on your initiative and run out of it very quickly. Or hell, D/P thief where youre even more initiative-hungry and even more quick to dump it. Maybe if Pulmonary Impact wasnt nerfed so hard it basically just tickles, you could justify it, but it was, so its not. Wasting Swipe to interrupt an active channeled block, and then being forced to waste 4 initiative to interrupt the thing you shouldve used Swipe for just means you lose a ton of damage (and even potentially survivability, since theyre not very likely to pop boons before going into active block). Oh and in the case of Warrior, youd want to interrupt Rampage. Theyre not the only class with active blocking, yknow.

I can already see that you dont think when you play.You dont interrupt block just becouse you can, you interrupt the block when you can put pressure afterwards.Most if not all warriors dont start with their block as defensive rotation, it has long cooldown compared to dodges/gs3/full counter.They fill their defensive downtime with shieldblock, becouse its most effective this way. So when you interrupt block that is used this way, you strip them their last resort and leave them open for a long time.And if they use it first, not after dodges/gs3/full counter, then you can just wait it out and have them waste important cooldown.

Unblockable interrupt is important against mesmer scepter 2, shieldblock from war and ranger gs. Im fairly sure it denies the ranger kick too so another evade down the drain.

Interrupting and thus procing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pulmonary_Impact_(trait_skill) is important, it DOES deal damage.From what I have seen and fought thiefs its about 3k dmg/proc. ( against mesmer low armor class but still ) you cant really expect 1 trait to do more damage then that, expecially when you can proc it several times in a fight EXPECIALLY since thief has access to interrupts without cooldown pw/sb/headshot.

shadowpass.4236 · January 7, 2020

@ZDragon.3046 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Vallun.2071 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@SeikeNz.3526 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:Maybe people could stop arguing over semantics and word choice when they both really think the same thing but just keep slamming their head against a brick wall for...reasons.
Can we just acknowledge that soulbeast burns a ton of cooldowns to output beefy damage but suffers a pretty suitable amount of downtime and vulnerability for doing so, and has more modifiers scattered about so people see 'kitten there's no boons to justify this'? Yadda yadda could use some shaves, could use some changes to adjust the '1-shot' builds that aren't actually 1-shots but for the love of god don't nitpick.
TLDR the things ranger has to do to 'boom' people for 10k mauls is exploitable. Please go test for yourself how much it takes to reach a 10k maul. Really, I'm fine with the way maul is atm, mostly (why does it give attack of opportunity when it misses and out of combat?)
@shadowpass.4236 I think it was you who made that vid w/the Diviner soulbeast setup? Pretty fun - wish there was a condi amulet that has conc xD
Edit: I'm still trying to reproduce that maul.I'm barely reaching 14k with beast mastery, marksmanship, oppressive superiority from slb, a CC beforehand, fury, and attk of opportunity procced. Zerk amulet and scholar.

why rangers players think that is ok to hit more than 5k with any skill?also 14k for a 4s cd skill is over the top

Yes because rangers are the only class that can hit more than 5k. /s

What a good straw man. You attack the one dude who says something wrong and think it acquits rangers from being able to do very decent damage from ranged and from melee while also having a pet to bait out cds for you while having insane reset potential. You will do anything to avoid nerfs on your class even though you want others to be nerfed. So many people have called you out on your faulty logic in this thread including

you suggesting similar nerfs that you argue would be harder nerfs yet would be non issues (lower duration block rather than loner cooldown)
you recording a video of your attacks doing little damage but refusing to include all of the modifers that any normal ranger would get in a real match
you cherry picking things other classes do better than your class such as holding nodes for weaver, doing interupts for thief, or doing damage for rev, but then refusing to acknowledge all of the things ranger can do better than those classes or even that rangers can do almost as much as those classes but also fulfill multiple roles

Please stop spamming walls of text to drown out any possible disagreements because no one has the time to address every single logical fallacy you use. My ranger nerf suggestions were VERY light. You should be more prone to compromise.

Edit: you also literally said you didnt watch any of the other parts of the video so you saw i wanted ranger to be nerfed and assumed i wasnt nerfing anything else even though the ranger section is very short?

Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
Reduce GS4's block duration to 2 seconds.
Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
Remove Plasma from Siamoth.Tbh i feel like this would just be the start of where the need to go.

Gazelle's charge might even need to deal no damage basically get the "rampage effect" ITs a cc that even with your self nerf would still do a ton of damage. Either take the cc away and reduce the damage a bit or keep the cc and cut the damage down completely. Even the command skill is a cc that deals tons of damage which they have established the idea of removing things like this. I just wanted to point that out.

Generally do still think that stealth access for ranger is higher than it should be but if plasma is removed from play and the block is reduced then it might be ok. Plasma does give them too wide of a boon table for literally everything they have in a single kit build and the damage mods are insane. Right now the loop of stealth access, blocking, and boons providing sustain ontop of the damage, sheer number of cc's between the ranger and its pet overall its a bit much its got to be one of the biggest offenders right now in terms of being imbalanced.

Also lets not slide by "We heal as one" too... depending on if plasma is removed or not thats up for debate too. I would consider that more busted than Troll Unguent.

WHaO heals less than TU so it trades worse in longer fights in exchange for some boon duration.

But yeah the rest of that would fix most of the stronger stuff with ranger imo.

The issue is not the healing its the boon share effect combined with some soul beast traits but like i said this might depend on plasma. there will still be some niche moments where i see WHaO easily outperforming TU still.

Both WHaO and TU are very very good healing skills actually i personally dont think TU needs changes i would argue that WHaO is the bigger issue just because its secondary effect is so strong for a healing skill and becomes super potent with Soul Beast equipped.

Idk as long as the cast times for heal skills (regardless of class) are reliably interruptible, I don't have an issue with them. Hence why I want TU to have a longer cast time. The boon duration was already cut from WHaO so it relies on the player taking concentration on their amulet + boonshare to make any real use of it. The base 3s of boons you get from WHaO really isn't noticeable at all in a fight. If anything, I'd argue that WHaO could receive some slight healing power increases to better compete against TU, but it's not super necessary at the moment.

Gamble.4580 · January 7, 2020

Great video man I agree 100% for necro fear needs more of a tell and quickness should be long enough to get a combo off but don’t restack after corrupted. Would love to see scourge have a ds for 2nd health bar with its abiltys what the f abiltys are that are placements. Speed runes make classes like reaper a great map control class and amazing at pealing +ing and amazing for resetting. If they nurf it will go back to how it was so would like to see some buffs somewhere to make up for the nurfs but at same time will the buffs be needed if everything is nurfed across the board.

Zenix.6198 · January 7, 2020

@"Megametzler.5729"glad to see this meme catching on :)

For future reference:https://bullshitbingo.net/byo/

Vallun.2071 · January 7, 2020

@Cheeseball C.8395 said:
@Vallun.2071 said:
@Cheeseball C.8395 said:56:25 "so basically another issue here, just like lightning strike, is core necros have a instant cast fear!"
... kept watching and the only reason for nerf suggestion was just because it's instant? Then by that logic nerf thief steal to have a visual cast time rather than being instant lol.
The reaper build i use for 5v5s are very unfavorable for 1v1s and reaper is one of the easiest classes to 2v1 which is why it's generally bad to take 1v1s on reaper. It's ability to gank hard high risk high reward is part of it's identity as a team main damage role which takes part in stopping bunker metas from emerging. People generally don't cry for reaper nerfs because it is the class with the obvious weakness of no access to complete damage nullification other than their base 2 dodges hence making them being targets the more consistent to not lose value from.
The class balance suggestions from the video seems to be taken for more of a 1v1 type balance which the game isn't meant for. I couldn't find any explanations on how any of these suggestions would effect other classes as a whole. I think the concept of conquest, the impact to the meta, and the weakness of all classes should be considered and explained to make these suggestions a little more convincing. A true balance to 1v1 is literally making every class the same and I think people would rather have the classes all have their own identity.
The title should be Changes "i want" rather than putting "WE" because there was not any mention of anyone else's opinions on their classes and others.

except the difference is that steal does nothing until 6 traits are devoted to it and it is the main class mechanic of thief, meanwhile necros have an instant cast 3 sec cc that ticks damage, thieves dont even take deadly arts anymore, thats how irrelevant steal is and it does no damage now and only a boon steal and 1 sec daze. Your arguments seem to be changes only you want to prevent because youre a biased necro main. Meanwhile I play your class better than you and still want my main to be nerfed more. Good attempt at a discussion, but just skipping to the necro part and assuming i dont nerf anything else (btw i nerf thief harder in my suggestions than i do necro since you didnt watch) isn't really proving much.

1:13:05 "If you think otherwise though, let me know in the comments if you think my suggestions are bad or if they are extremely biased... let me know lets discuss the game because that is how it becomes better." Literally at the end of the video you blocked the dislike bar and comments for. "meanwhile i play your class better than you..." getting personal over arguments you welcomed discussions for at the end of your video is what I would call unwelcoming, condescending and dishonest.

"except the difference is that steal does nothing until 6 traits are devoted to it ..."has nothing to do with the point of your argument that core necro needs to remove the instant cast of it's shroud 3 because "it's instant." Reaper needs to commit a trait-line for spite and or soul reaping to have self might and high burst damage could be seen as the same argument however like your quote, it steers the attention away from the point I stated.

"thieves dont even take deadly arts anymore" ..

steal traits are in trickery which almost all thieves use all the time but it isn't even the point of what I said.

I'm pointing out the lack of elaboration and reasoning of your suggestions for nerfs. Saying someone wants their own main nerfed more does not justify anyone throwing nerfs at other classes or even on their own main that other people play with no clear productive reasoning of it's impact on spvp as a whole.

"Your arguments seem to be changes only you want to prevent because youre a biased necro main." Yeah I have a favorite class I like to play so i'm very prone to being biased towards it just like everyone else who plays this game.

"...assuming i dont nerf anything else isn't really proving much (proving what)/ since you didnt watch" Making instant assumptions that people did not watch the video you spent a lot of time making just because they talked about class they are known for can be taken as insulting for those who actually bothered spending some of their time to watch. And from MY watching, still most of the suggestions "nerf bulls rush because it's high impact" "remove the weakness from mantra of truth because it's cover condi and weakness isn't something gaurdian should be giving" "nerf ranger longbow range to 1200 because it's too long and makes it unfun for wvw" While you gave some good points that many may agree with, you focused only the skills themselves for the class they belong to (based on how your "feel" on their effectiveness) WITHOUT mentioning anything how it positively or negatively affects any of the other classes builds and roles in spvp since you are going out of your way to discuss changes for ALL classes. Once scourge got one change to the mechanic of their shades no longer working on themselves, there is a noticeable decline in scourge play in competitive spvp anymore which in my opinion impacted spvp as an indirect buff to builds with many boons like holos, revs and firebrands to be more prominent in the meta. The rise of meta power rev builds after the initial HoT bunker meta in 2015 nerf made power reapers less viable in higher tier play. Inputting so many changes, although with good intent, without considering how it affects everything else may lead to unwanted problems that weren't intended.

This content creator feedback felt a little defensive, toxic and condescending rather than a productive discussion about how the game can be improved with the help of diverse point of views.

The Mighty Lu Bu disapproves 0 points. I expected better.

Youtube removed comments for videos based on some stuff but its back now. Also you mentioned this in your first post "The title should be Changes "i want" rather than putting "WE" because there was not any mention of anyone else's opinions on their classes and others." which is the epitome of defensive since i was way more harsh on thief than on necro, but because you want only necro to be overpowered you ignore any other changes i suggest and want necro to be untouched DESPITE wanting other classes to get nerfed harder. Admit that you are biased and allow the game to be balanced, and don't attack someone who has way more perspective on you because they know whats best for you :)

ZDragon.3046 · January 7, 2020

@Vallun.2071 said:
@"Cheeseball C.8395" said:56:25 "so basically another issue here, just like lightning strike, is core necros have a instant cast fear!"
... kept watching and the only reason for nerf suggestion was just because it's instant? Then by that logic nerf thief steal to have a visual cast time rather than being instant lol.
The reaper build i use for 5v5s are very unfavorable for 1v1s and reaper is one of the easiest classes to 2v1 which is why it's generally bad to take 1v1s on reaper. It's ability to gank hard high risk high reward is part of it's identity as a team main damage role which takes part in stopping bunker metas from emerging. People generally don't cry for reaper nerfs because it is the class with the obvious weakness of no access to complete damage nullification other than their base 2 dodges hence making them being targets the more consistent to not lose value from.
The class balance suggestions from the video seems to be taken for more of a 1v1 type balance which the game isn't meant for. I couldn't find any explanations on how any of these suggestions would effect other classes as a whole. I think the concept of conquest, the impact to the meta, and the weakness of all classes should be considered and explained to make these suggestions a little more convincing. A true balance to 1v1 is literally making every class the same and I think people would rather have the classes all have their own identity.
The title should be Changes "i want" rather than putting "WE" because there was not any mention of anyone else's opinions on their classes and others.

except the difference is that steal does nothing until 6 traits are devoted to it and it is the main class mechanic of thief, meanwhile necros have an instant cast 3 sec cc that ticks damage, thieves dont even take deadly arts anymore, thats how irrelevant steal is and it does no damage now and only a boon steal and 1 sec daze. Your arguments seem to be changes only you want to prevent because youre a biased necro main. Meanwhile I play your class better than you and still want my main to be nerfed more. Good attempt at a discussion, but just skipping to the necro part and assuming i dont nerf anything else (btw i nerf thief harder in my suggestions than i do necro since you didnt watch) isn't really proving much.

You do realize that the skill doom is not a base 3 second fear even at point blank range. What are you even talking about dude. Lets not act like people dont have to invest in traits to make that strong. But maybe you didnt know that....Ill be honest it almost sounds like you are biased against necro because you are a ele main, and that its one of the few professions where necromancer takes the advantage due to its ability to chill which is generally known for being able to mess up ele no matter what build it takes.

Its not a matter of if you talked about nerfing others or not its more so that you dont understand some of the stuff you are even talking about (or you just worded it super poorly) You also do not seem to understand the old core values that anet has aggressively balanced necro and held it to for the past years even up till changes that come now which is why it has no invulns, extra dodges, limited boon table which is mostly just self might, and almost every profession has something it can do to abuse necros in 1v1 with ele being the weakest contender. Necro is literally weak in a 1v1 because it lacks the dueling tools every other profession has in a 1v1 situations. Its strongest in 2v1 situations and any situation where it and its allies outnumber the other. You cant understand how easy it is to abuse necromancer in pvp till you really commit to playing one and get cc'ed around a point for the entirety of the fight by pre-made teams on coms.

You even called out Chill of Death (lesser spinal shivers) which is a trait most people generally dont run anymore that trait fell off hard as soon as it was nerfed to the point it cannot crit. You also called out this trait for several times in granting might which it does not do (or again your wording is poor). Ideally the core idea for necro was that if it got you to 50% hp it traits were designed to start giving it the advantage but getting them to the 50% point was always suppose to be the hard part.

If you want to nerf doom thats fine but we should also expect nerfs for instant attuenement swapping and air scepter 2 and 3 etc.If you want to nerf reapers might buffing thats fine but expect others to have even less might than necro/reaper after the fact considering its the one thing necro/ reaper is good at everyone else should still have much less that includes ele.If you want to nerf reapers attack speed then expect everyone else to also be put back down to that level or just fix the problem and make reapers base speed proper for 2020 but not quickness level fast then the quickness can be removed.

Vallun.2071 · January 7, 2020

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

You compare necromancer doom to thief's entire class mechanic, have you forgotten that necros have an entire life bar and 4 other skills while in shroud? Don't manipulate your comparison to ignore the original point. Thieves get a good combo enabler as their singular class mechanic. Core shroud's doom is an instant cast fear that if it isnt counterplayed can result in a player being 100-0 killed which is only a small part of their classes mechanic.

@Curennos.9307I agree with a lot of your suggestions except for the deadeye one. Deadeye needs to do big damage to be even usable (or even fun). Deadeye isnt unfun because it does damage, its unfun because it comes from stealth and has no animation. Deaths judgment is fine because it has an animation that reveals them, but when the animation of it is preceeded by a no animation (from stealth) knockdown its a bit much.

ZDragon.3046 · January 7, 2020

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Vallun.2071 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@SeikeNz.3526 said:
@Curennos.9307 said:Maybe people could stop arguing over semantics and word choice when they both really think the same thing but just keep slamming their head against a brick wall for...reasons.
Can we just acknowledge that soulbeast burns a ton of cooldowns to output beefy damage but suffers a pretty suitable amount of downtime and vulnerability for doing so, and has more modifiers scattered about so people see 'kitten there's no boons to justify this'? Yadda yadda could use some shaves, could use some changes to adjust the '1-shot' builds that aren't actually 1-shots but for the love of god don't nitpick.
TLDR the things ranger has to do to 'boom' people for 10k mauls is exploitable. Please go test for yourself how much it takes to reach a 10k maul. Really, I'm fine with the way maul is atm, mostly (why does it give attack of opportunity when it misses and out of combat?)
@shadowpass.4236 I think it was you who made that vid w/the Diviner soulbeast setup? Pretty fun - wish there was a condi amulet that has conc xD
Edit: I'm still trying to reproduce that maul.I'm barely reaching 14k with beast mastery, marksmanship, oppressive superiority from slb, a CC beforehand, fury, and attk of opportunity procced. Zerk amulet and scholar.

why rangers players think that is ok to hit more than 5k with any skill?also 14k for a 4s cd skill is over the top

Yes because rangers are the only class that can hit more than 5k. /s

What a good straw man. You attack the one dude who says something wrong and think it acquits rangers from being able to do very decent damage from ranged and from melee while also having a pet to bait out cds for you while having insane reset potential. You will do anything to avoid nerfs on your class even though you want others to be nerfed. So many people have called you out on your faulty logic in this thread including

you suggesting similar nerfs that you argue would be harder nerfs yet would be non issues (lower duration block rather than loner cooldown)
you recording a video of your attacks doing little damage but refusing to include all of the modifers that any normal ranger would get in a real match
you cherry picking things other classes do better than your class such as holding nodes for weaver, doing interupts for thief, or doing damage for rev, but then refusing to acknowledge all of the things ranger can do better than those classes or even that rangers can do almost as much as those classes but also fulfill multiple roles

Please stop spamming walls of text to drown out any possible disagreements because no one has the time to address every single logical fallacy you use. My ranger nerf suggestions were VERY light. You should be more prone to compromise.

Edit: you also literally said you didnt watch any of the other parts of the video so you saw i wanted ranger to be nerfed and assumed i wasnt nerfing anything else even though the ranger section is very short?

Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
Reduce GS4's block duration to 2 seconds.
Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
Remove Plasma from Siamoth.Tbh i feel like this would just be the start of where the need to go.