inequality of classes :)

[RedShark.9548]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Weirdly enough, if i look at the pvp forum, i see alot of complaints about how good d/p and s/p thief is atm

Dp thief with assassin signet and the right build will rip 3+ boons and starts almost every engagements with a burst out of stealth thst one shots zerk builds and takes 50% or more hp off of tanky builds evening out the playing fields so to speak if it's going to try for the kill. Even if dp isn't a great up front 1v1 the backstab burst is enough to make it effective as it is along side assassin sig. After patch dp players will have a huge dps loss on their first initial burst as well as their follow up dps being lowered against unchanged base hp's on its opponents. Without that big initial backstab burst to start engagements or to quickly end +1's I doubt they're will be many dp thief's within weeks of the patch.

Yea, but op was talking about how it is now even before patch a bad class. It definately needs to be toned down, and since every other class is getting nerfs aswell nobody can rly tell how much it will fall off.

I watched yesterday ATs in EU.BOTH finalist teams ran 2 dp thiefs. That says it all.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Weirdly enough, if i look at the pvp forum, i see alot of complaints about how good d/p and s/p thief is atm

Dp thief with assassin signet and the right build will rip 3+ boons and starts almost every engagements with a burst out of stealth thst one shots zerk builds and takes 50% or more hp off of tanky builds evening out the playing fields so to speak if it's going to try for the kill. Even if dp isn't a great up front 1v1 the backstab burst is enough to make it effective as it is along side assassin sig. After patch dp players will have a huge dps loss on their first initial burst as well as their follow up dps being lowered against unchanged base hp's on its opponents. Without that big initial backstab burst to start engagements or to quickly end +1's I doubt they're will be many dp thief's within weeks of the patch.

Yea, but op was talking about how it is now even before patch a bad class. It definately needs to be toned down, and since every other class is getting nerfs aswell nobody can rly tell how much it will fall off.

I watched yesterday ATs in EU.BOTH finalist teams ran 2 dp thiefs. That says it all.

I agree the one shot backstab is to much and shouldn't be a thing for sure. I'm just saying with how thief is designed and dp skills as they are now with the damage decrease come patch it will not be anything more than a ok +1 build. Everything that made it viable as a 1v1 got majorly nerfed rightfully so but nothing to help it as far as not relying on quick stealth bursts so it will fade out and not be used nearly as often. Imagine right now as dp is if its backstab did way less dps do u think people be running it considering it paired with assassin sig are the only viable ways for dp builds to do any real dps. It definitely sucks and is un fun and un fair to be backstabbed out of stealth for 75% of ur hp in one go and its equally as boring to constantly be going for those stealth backstabs after a hr of playing the build but honestly if a thief took 25% of ur hp with their backstab how many fights u think a dp thief would realistically win with everything else kept the same.

[RedShark.9548]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Weirdly enough, if i look at the pvp forum, i see alot of complaints about how good d/p and s/p thief is atm

Dp thief with assassin signet and the right build will rip 3+ boons and starts almost every engagements with a burst out of stealth thst one shots zerk builds and takes 50% or more hp off of tanky builds evening out the playing fields so to speak if it's going to try for the kill. Even if dp isn't a great up front 1v1 the backstab burst is enough to make it effective as it is along side assassin sig. After patch dp players will have a huge dps loss on their first initial burst as well as their follow up dps being lowered against unchanged base hp's on its opponents. Without that big initial backstab burst to start engagements or to quickly end +1's I doubt they're will be many dp thief's within weeks of the patch.

Yea, but op was talking about how it is now even before patch a bad class. It definately needs to be toned down, and since every other class is getting nerfs aswell nobody can rly tell how much it will fall off.

I watched yesterday ATs in EU.BOTH finalist teams ran 2 dp thiefs. That says it all.

I agree the one shot backstab is to much and shouldn't be a thing for sure. I'm just saying with how thief is designed and dp skills as they are now with the damage decrease come patch it will not be anything more than a ok +1 build. Everything that made it viable as a 1v1 got majorly nerfed rightfully so but nothing to help it as far as not relying on quick stealth bursts so it will fade out and not be used nearly as often. Imagine right now as dp is if its backstab did way less dps do u think people be running it considering it paired with assassin sig are the only viable ways for dp builds to do any real dps. It definitely sucks and is un fun and un fair to be backstabbed out of stealth for 75% of ur hp in one go and its equally as boring to constantly be going for those stealth backstabs after a hr of playing the build but honestly if a thief took 25% of ur hp with their backstab how many fights u think a dp thief would realistically win with everything else kept the same.

Yea, but thats a design flaw with the class, you wont ever fix that with just number changes. You would need to rework the whole class. Dont ask me how exactly, im not a game designer.

[Yasai.3549]

If yu wanna argue about inequality of classes :) yu should also understand that Thief does alot of things which inherently breaks the rules of the game.

Their core profession mechanic, initiative, already borderline breaks the game's own rules by removing all cooldown from their weapon skills.This itself also allows them near infinite Stealth access which is another problem in its own.

Professions are not all created equal.

Thief is fine.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Yasai.3549 said:If yu wanna argue about inequality of classes :) yu should also understand that Thief does alot of things which inherently breaks the rules of the game.

Their core profession mechanic, initiative, already borderline breaks the game's own rules by removing all cooldown from their weapon skills.This itself also allows them near infinite Stealth access which is another problem in its own.

Professions are not all created equal.

Thief is fine.

I'd have thought people would understand the difference between no cooldowns and shared cooldowns by now.

[NuhDah.9812]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:If yu wanna argue about inequality of classes :) yu should also understand that Thief does alot of things which inherently breaks the rules of the game.

Their core profession mechanic, initiative, already borderline breaks the game's own rules by removing all cooldown from their weapon skills.This itself also allows them near infinite Stealth access which is another problem in its own.

Professions are not all created equal.

Thief is fine.

I'd have thought people would understand the difference between no cooldowns and shared cooldowns by now.

Well, they at least said "thief is fine" not "broken" or something along those lines you usually see people say about it.

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Weirdly enough, if i look at the pvp forum, i see alot of complaints about how good d/p and s/p thief is atm

Dp thief with assassin signet and the right build will rip 3+ boons and starts almost every engagements with a burst out of stealth thst one shots zerk builds and takes 50% or more hp off of tanky builds evening out the playing fields so to speak if it's going to try for the kill. Even if dp isn't a great up front 1v1 the backstab burst is enough to make it effective as it is along side assassin sig. After patch dp players will have a huge dps loss on their first initial burst as well as their follow up dps being lowered against unchanged base hp's on its opponents. Without that big initial backstab burst to start engagements or to quickly end +1's I doubt they're will be many dp thief's within weeks of the patch.

Yea, but op was talking about how it is now even before patch a bad class. It definately needs to be toned down, and since every other class is getting nerfs aswell nobody can rly tell how much it will fall off.

I watched yesterday ATs in EU.BOTH finalist teams ran 2 dp thiefs. That says it all.

I agree the one shot backstab is to much and shouldn't be a thing for sure. I'm just saying with how thief is designed and dp skills as they are now with the damage decrease come patch it will not be anything more than a ok +1 build. Everything that made it viable as a 1v1 got majorly nerfed rightfully so but nothing to help it as far as not relying on quick stealth bursts so it will fade out and not be used nearly as often. Imagine right now as dp is if its backstab did way less dps do u think people be running it considering it paired with assassin sig are the only viable ways for dp builds to do any real dps. It definitely sucks and is un fun and un fair to be backstabbed out of stealth for 75% of ur hp in one go and its equally as boring to constantly be going for those stealth backstabs after a hr of playing the build but honestly if a thief took 25% of ur hp with their backstab how many fights u think a dp thief would realistically win with everything else kept the same.

Yea, but thats a design flaw with the class, you wont ever fix that with just number changes. You would need to rework the whole class. Dont ask me how exactly, im not a game designer.

You can cosider it a "design flaw", or you can say it's a "design choice" and since thief actually managed to exist in the game all those years without either breaking the game or being left forgotten even in times when it stood out or in times it was less competitive, I'd say it's design worked pretty well.

It's true everyone has their taste in the style of combat they preferre, and some people just don't understand that there is a fine line between balance and the monotony of every thing being the same, as well as a delicate bond between diversity, counters and not letting things go out of control, and also there are kids that think that their profession & build of choice should be able to do it all and don't want to understand some the implications, or those who just get bpred of things and always want something else, but it's imposible to satisfy every one of these. And as I said, with all the hate, and changes, thief managed to remain a played class for almost 8 years, I doubt you can call that a flawed design.

With this being said, it's a shame there are people who play a profession like thief for 3 years now and still don't get that this is not a faceroll profession and you'll need to use everything at your disposal, every movement advantage, every weapon set combo, cheap tactics, build compromises, and so on, to make it work. You cant just be fixated on one weapon, to say it's bad even though you havent even explored it's potential in combination with other stuff at your disposal and what works best where, or heck, if there even is sothing else that would suit your own play style better.

[RedShark.9548]

@NuhDah.9812 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:If yu wanna argue about inequality of classes :) yu should also understand that Thief does alot of things which inherently breaks the rules of the game.

Their core profession mechanic, initiative, already borderline breaks the game's own rules by removing all cooldown from their weapon skills.This itself also allows them near infinite Stealth access which is another problem in its own.

Professions are not all created equal.

Thief is fine.

I'd have thought people would understand the difference between no cooldowns and shared cooldowns by now.

Well, they at least said "thief is fine" not "broken" or something along those lines you usually see people say about it.

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Weirdly enough, if i look at the pvp forum, i see alot of complaints about how good d/p and s/p thief is atm

Dp thief with assassin signet and the right build will rip 3+ boons and starts almost every engagements with a burst out of stealth thst one shots zerk builds and takes 50% or more hp off of tanky builds evening out the playing fields so to speak if it's going to try for the kill. Even if dp isn't a great up front 1v1 the backstab burst is enough to make it effective as it is along side assassin sig. After patch dp players will have a huge dps loss on their first initial burst as well as their follow up dps being lowered against unchanged base hp's on its opponents. Without that big initial backstab burst to start engagements or to quickly end +1's I doubt they're will be many dp thief's within weeks of the patch.

Yea, but op was talking about how it is now even before patch a bad class. It definately needs to be toned down, and since every other class is getting nerfs aswell nobody can rly tell how much it will fall off.

I watched yesterday ATs in EU.BOTH finalist teams ran 2 dp thiefs. That says it all.

I agree the one shot backstab is to much and shouldn't be a thing for sure. I'm just saying with how thief is designed and dp skills as they are now with the damage decrease come patch it will not be anything more than a ok +1 build. Everything that made it viable as a 1v1 got majorly nerfed rightfully so but nothing to help it as far as not relying on quick stealth bursts so it will fade out and not be used nearly as often. Imagine right now as dp is if its backstab did way less dps do u think people be running it considering it paired with assassin sig are the only viable ways for dp builds to do any real dps. It definitely sucks and is un fun and un fair to be backstabbed out of stealth for 75% of ur hp in one go and its equally as boring to constantly be going for those stealth backstabs after a hr of playing the build but honestly if a thief took 25% of ur hp with their backstab how many fights u think a dp thief would realistically win with everything else kept the same.

Yea, but thats a design flaw with the class, you wont ever fix that with just number changes. You would need to rework the whole class. Dont ask me how exactly, im not a game designer.

You can cosider it a "design flaw", or you can say it's a "design choice" and since thief actually managed to exist in the game all those years without either breaking the game or being left forgotten even in times when it stood out or in times it was less competitive, I'd say it's design worked pretty well.

It's true everyone has their taste in the style of combat they preferre, and some people just don't understand that there is a fine line between balance and the monotony of every thing being the same, as well as a delicate bond between diversity, counters and not letting things go out of control, and also there are kids that think that their profession & build of choice should be able to do it all and don't want to understand some the implications, or those who just get bpred of things and always want something else, but it's imposible to satisfy every one of these. And as I said, with all the hate, and changes, thief managed to remain a played class for almost 8 years, I doubt you can call that a flawed design.

With this being said, it's a shame there are people who play a profession like thief for 3 years now and still don't get that this is not a faceroll profession and you'll need to use everything at your disposal, every movement advantage, every weapon set combo, cheap tactics, build compromises, and so on, to make it work. You cant just be fixated on one weapon, to say it's bad even though you havent even explored it's potential in combination with other stuff at your disposal and what works best where, or heck, if there even is sothing else that would suit your own play style better.

Since release there are ppl who do not have fun playing against thief and thats a design flaw. I agree that its def not a faceroll class, but ppl who master it are absolutely obnoxious and unfun to play against.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

This has gotta be a troll post.

Thief has one of the strongest DPS rotations in PvE. Thief is one of the best, if not the easiest, class (d/p) in PvP right now.

Shortbow damage is good, if you think otherwise you're not using it properly.

[NuhDah.9812]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@NuhDah.9812 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:If yu wanna argue about inequality of classes :) yu should also understand that Thief does alot of things which inherently breaks the rules of the game.

Their core profession mechanic, initiative, already borderline breaks the game's own rules by removing all cooldown from their weapon skills.This itself also allows them near infinite Stealth access which is another problem in its own.

Professions are not all created equal.

Thief is fine.

I'd have thought people would understand the difference between no cooldowns and shared cooldowns by now.

Well, they at least said "thief is fine" not "broken" or something along those lines you usually see people say about it.

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Weirdly enough, if i look at the pvp forum, i see alot of complaints about how good d/p and s/p thief is atm

Dp thief with assassin signet and the right build will rip 3+ boons and starts almost every engagements with a burst out of stealth thst one shots zerk builds and takes 50% or more hp off of tanky builds evening out the playing fields so to speak if it's going to try for the kill. Even if dp isn't a great up front 1v1 the backstab burst is enough to make it effective as it is along side assassin sig. After patch dp players will have a huge dps loss on their first initial burst as well as their follow up dps being lowered against unchanged base hp's on its opponents. Without that big initial backstab burst to start engagements or to quickly end +1's I doubt they're will be many dp thief's within weeks of the patch.

Yea, but op was talking about how it is now even before patch a bad class. It definately needs to be toned down, and since every other class is getting nerfs aswell nobody can rly tell how much it will fall off.

I watched yesterday ATs in EU.BOTH finalist teams ran 2 dp thiefs. That says it all.

I agree the one shot backstab is to much and shouldn't be a thing for sure. I'm just saying with how thief is designed and dp skills as they are now with the damage decrease come patch it will not be anything more than a ok +1 build. Everything that made it viable as a 1v1 got majorly nerfed rightfully so but nothing to help it as far as not relying on quick stealth bursts so it will fade out and not be used nearly as often. Imagine right now as dp is if its backstab did way less dps do u think people be running it considering it paired with assassin sig are the only viable ways for dp builds to do any real dps. It definitely sucks and is un fun and un fair to be backstabbed out of stealth for 75% of ur hp in one go and its equally as boring to constantly be going for those stealth backstabs after a hr of playing the build but honestly if a thief took 25% of ur hp with their backstab how many fights u think a dp thief would realistically win with everything else kept the same.

Yea, but thats a design flaw with the class, you wont ever fix that with just number changes. You would need to rework the whole class. Dont ask me how exactly, im not a game designer.

You can cosider it a "design flaw", or you can say it's a "design choice" and since thief actually managed to exist in the game all those years without either breaking the game or being left forgotten even in times when it stood out or in times it was less competitive, I'd say it's design worked pretty well.

It's true everyone has their taste in the style of combat they preferre, and some people just don't understand that there is a fine line between balance and the monotony of every thing being the same, as well as a delicate bond between diversity, counters and not letting things go out of control, and also there are kids that think that their profession & build of choice should be able to do it all and don't want to understand some the implications, or those who just get bpred of things and always want something else, but it's imposible to satisfy every one of these. And as I said, with all the hate, and changes, thief managed to remain a played class for almost 8 years, I doubt you can call that a flawed design.

With this being said, it's a shame there are people who play a profession like thief for 3 years now and still don't get that this is not a faceroll profession and you'll need to use everything at your disposal, every movement advantage, every weapon set combo, cheap tactics, build compromises, and so on, to make it work. You cant just be fixated on one weapon, to say it's bad even though you havent even explored it's potential in combination with other stuff at your disposal and what works best where, or heck, if there even is sothing else that would suit your own play style better.

Since release there are ppl who do not have fun playing against thief and thats a design flaw. I agree that its def not a faceroll class, but ppl who master it are absolutely obnoxious and unfun to play against.

The same thing can be said about any other profession. There will always be people who hate the guts of other play styles in the game, and there will always be people for every profession who mastered it and become/play the class in an obnoxious way for other players. It's like, I personally never felt oppressed by thief, the profession I play, and can appreciate the players at the top who are an example of how high quality thief gameplay is, while I've always hated faceroll classes who press a button from far away to be able to down others or spam condies or boons mindlessly while will never be able to be downed.

[Senqu.8054]

@Schnuschnu.9857 said:Thieves have really high evasion uptime and methods of dealing damge while evading or inbuild evades in damage skills. .

Sounds a little bit tooo much like mirage to me. We should nerf this ability with a trade off. Maybe no endurance regeneration will do it...

[doogal.9368]

I felt the same when I first started this class. Squishy.

Also, the boons you can muster on your own (not even using steal right away) + the fury + runes + condis. You don't even need to be the power dealer.Sword/dagger + SB....you can go anywhere in PVE as long as you aren't facing more than 4-5 in a mob. (unless its something like 2 hydras and 2 djinns and 2 trash mobs like that one cavern deal in riverlands) Even PoF wasn't too difficult. Some open world escorts and other events are super hard but they are intended for groups.

Shortbow...ok yes its condi for sure. But to say it isn't a damage dealer to multiple mobs with that bouncing shot...come on yo! Throw some condi runes and kite those fools and see how long they last. (torment maybe + fire blast maybe?)

But any class to be great I feel like you need to read the opposition to some extent.

PVP....someone already said it, deadeye range, no question. Idk if it seems like not a lot of flexibility but you should still be able to make it fun.

[Don Vega Van Kain.9842]

Three years as a thief main and you complain about it :s With all the partiality i can give you (really), the problem is elsewhere then.....

[DeceiverX.8361]

@"cargar.7148" said:fury and easy access? is it a joke? I'm talking about thief not druid :)PvP ;The range of the backstab is rather short. I think it is very wrong to direct players to weapons other than daggers / daggers.

Even as a D/D main for several thousand hours, D/D power as a whole is and has been garbage in PvP since 2012 and has never been actually good, especially with the balance being moved toward DE with its MBS, which has anti-synergy with D/D in PvP environments because the kit has absolutely zero mobility, whereas D/P has SShot and OOC stealth to close the gap. The only edge it's had in the past is fast burst and that most people don't really know how to deal with it because it's so bad nobody plays it.

The best use for D/D in the PvP environments is for playing it as a "mash 3" condi build. It's boring and bad design, but it's what they want to insist the kit stays as because ANet has some weird obsession with Death Blossom remaining as it is.

[Methuselah.4376]

Behind Mirage, thieves are the cheapest and most obnoxious class when played by a decent player. Perma stealth, huge damage from stealth attacks, access to boons, recovers health quite quickly, lots of access to CC including pistol's constant daze, constant evades, plus whatever they get on steal (which against necro is another CC in the form of fear). So what you have is a class that bursts quite hard (even after recent nerfs) and then disengages. Thieves aren't head on fighters like warriors, they're strategic. If you rush your enemy with the same mentality as you do with a warrior, then you are going to lose. BUT, play the game of attrition, of striking at the opportune moment, and you would be very difficult to pin down, much less hurt.

@cargar.7148 said:The range of the Backstab ability and the ability that comes with other invisibility is very, very short and easily failed.Well....it IS a dagger not a great sword. Backstab is an opportunity skill that you do from stealth that deals a lot of damage....what did you expect? And actually if they change the range on it, it would most like be reduced to 120 because they want ranges to be multiples of 60