How to nerf necro (from a necro)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@"ZDragon.3046" said:doing all of these changes at once would distory a core class with low base damage, slow condi ramp, no mobility, no extra evades, and no blocks if you didnt know.

no it wouldn't, it would fix whats broke. look at meta battle, does this build rely on broken life force gain? core necro will be fine. if you want to be taken seriously don't defend broken mechanics.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:doing all of these changes at once would distory a core class with low base damage, slow condi ramp, no mobility, no extra evades, and no blocks if you didnt know.

no it wouldn't, it would fix whats broke. look at meta battle, does

this build

rely on broken life force gain? core necro will be fine. if you want to be taken seriously don't defend broken mechanics.

Fear of deathEternal LifeSoul marksUnholy MartyrSpectral walkDoes this build depend on life force gain.Yes it does! are you being serious?

Im personally not an avid blood magic user and dont use Unholy Martyr in my builds so i need other sources to gain my lf. I also dont use eternal life as i dont think at the moment is worth using in my more offensive builds.

All necro builds depend on life force gain your builds do not work without it because its part of the profession mechanic. IF you take a build extremely starved for life force you will not survive against anything long enough to do your damage.

The only thing that changes is how you go about getting life force which should have multiple options to prevent people from being locked into the same traits/utilities for every build.

Why do you think everyone should be pigion toed into that setup?Does this generate enough life force for reaper which consumes more life force and will be prone to taking more damage in melee range?

So in the long run yes doing all of what you said would ruin the core profession which in turn ruins the elites that stack ontop of it.The fact that it took A GAME WIDE NERF for people to say CORE NECRO IS BROKEN says a lot about A LOT OF PLAYERS and their view points on the game up to this point. Necro was in an ok place when everyone had the dps to blow it shroud away in 3s but now thats not happening and its quote on quote "Broken."

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:1v1 me on this strong mirage. ill give ya 100g if you win once.

An axe /staff mirage gave me a run for my money yesterday.Kind of plays like deadeye now.

[Phoebe Ascension.8437]

The unbalance is already worse caue 2 vs2 exegerrates it, but WTF is this necro 100% life force thing (in no time without a sign).

Holy mother are they overpowered. I dont know the source of this (other then perhaps the new 66% trait that clearly states it's much weaker in pvp). Even spectral skills CANNOT achieve this if you stop fast enough attacking (only8-11% per attack).

Meanwhile he immobalis, fears, bursts with lich, and EVERY single time, even when he's so bad player to get to 5% hp, he get.... 100% life force bar without doing anything to preceed it.

100% life force bar + heal + other stuff + stuns + offensife capability, + control abilities + nasty condies like chill, all in one class. ARE YOU NUTS And because 2vs2 the 'unkillable overpowered' factor is massively bigger cause you can focus him down before 10 sec cd on life force comes again.

Arenanet, this patch already was insanely horrific to play for me, but after such a massive nerf patch, making the imbalance skyrocked to the masssively highest degree i've seen in a lifetime, is beyond understanding how this can happen, not being hotfixed, not being playtested, and not being anticipated.

EVen perma stun overpowered well (HoT launch) chrono mesmer was more balanced then this (and that is saying a lot).

PS I'm a pve necro main (and i think in pvp it's my most played class), but never on something like this or overpowered like this. This build is pure cancer, nerf the lifeforce, 5x. or remove duoQ (so bursting the necro is a thing again).

Also getting 7x stunned in 10 seconds? So dodge on mirage can get nerf but stunlocking (wich is not skill full, a single stun is skill, more then one is riding godmode). Stop the warrior stun spree also, it's massively out of line (especially with spb F1 defence, gs 3 defence, shield 5 defence, defiant stance, etc.)

Btw the fight 2 vs1 necro took 3 min and we still didnt kill this, i have burst soulbeast (cant do any more damage then i have equipped), he still did NOT die when semi afking. Arenanet this is the worst balance in history. And the counterplay is the worst in history (2vs2 leaves no option but to die and loose long time against same boring necro).

[Axl.8924]

Some of the nerfs some of you ask for necros, is bonkers. Its class destroying that is beyond overkill.

Gutting its survivability in half or more? why? it has only one source of survival (Soaking) I saw a post I think it was leonidrex asking for the necros life force to be cut with necros which are insane. I think he's thinking of reaper since reaper only uses life force as a way of soaking, core necro uses its own health bar as a method of taking dmg not the life force. If you reduced it by too much, necros would be free to kill in reaper shroud.

Just about a few things are maybe limit the amount of prot a bit in. Didn't used to have that much prot and maybe slightly less life force regen.

The problem I have, is people are still used to the before which we all need to adapt to and get used to. Mesmers are going to have differences we will need to get used to, warriors, etc. and there are folks who don't want to adapt.

Necros used to seriously underperform and were inferior mechanically than practically every class, and that s because necro was living in 2015 while everyone else had power crept damage sustain mobility CC buffs and support.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@ZDragon.3046 said:snips

I have no idea what you're trying to say. metabattle build doesn't use death magic or signet of undeath, both of which are major culprits of the now op post patch build, plus signet gm is ridiculous. its important to note that my suggestions are exactly that, suggestions. they're not set in stone. the overall message of my suggested nerfs is that they shave traits instead of removing them, or worse, messing with core class mechanics. anyway life force gain should be on auto attacks and not tied to traits over much imo but that's just me.

[Phoebe Ascension.8437]

Other classes have a heal skill every 30 sec. Necro has heal skill + 16000 (with slow down trait so it's more, and life transfer to recover) life force EVERY 10 sec without question. How is that not overpowered.

I played reaper: and you know what: it's underpowered in 2vs2. And yes... this core necro at same time is at least 5x stronger in sustains, while having same damage and cc.

[Rickster.8752]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Rickster.8752 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Rickster.8752 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:they should change signet of undeath passive to something else. maybe a passive minion heal or something. shave blood gm, shave fear of death, and maybe shave signet gm. don't destroy a core class anet. also maybe perma prot in death magic isn't such a great idea.

They also need to nerf every other class too. Every class is OP.

not every class.guard is broken, ref is broken, necro is broken... then there is a BIIIIG gap, then there is ranger pets, another gap and the rest of the classes :D

Not true at all. Condi mirage is still very strong. Ranger is too strong. Warrior is still very good. Rev broken. etc etc

1v1 me on this strong mirage. ill give ya 100g if you win once.

Sounds like a l2p issue. Some of the best players I have seen have been on mirage. I suggest finding out their builds and working on your game to get to their level!

[Rickster.8752]

@ZDragon.3046 said:@Genesis.5169@Wayne.6253Im just gonna throw this out there for perspective purposes but.... try letting a warrior rampage auto you its literally about the same levels of damage

The differenceWarrior rampage = melee but has lower cooldown on accessing it, has more reliable cc, takes lower incoming damage for the duration.Necro Lich = Ranged projectile has higher cooldown on accessing, easer to land upfront damage, has true (or some what realistic) life steal with grim Spector

Also EditThe reason you rarely saw lich in the previous patch was because the moment you popped it you got erased. Everyone had far more damage on their basic weapon skills than you did on your lich auto as strong as it is all it did was make you a bigger target of focus.

With damage lowered it can actually be used for a few seconds without being instantly killed

Lich is terrible in 5v5 conquest.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:snips

I have no idea what you're trying to say. metabattle build doesn't use death magic or signet of undeath, both of which are major culprits of the now op post patch build. its important to note that my suggestions are exactly that, suggestions. they're not set in stone. the overall message of my suggested nerfs is that they shave traits instead of removing them, or worse, messing with core class mechanics.

To be clear you asked if it depended on life force generation and i pointed out exactly that it does. The only thing that meta battle build does is shift the way in which you gain life force some players believe it or not dont like to use staff or even blood magic which would void out the biggest life force generators in that build trait wise.

So now you are clear cut calling undeath by itself broken life force gain because that linked build uses every other source except that one. ok.... wellYour first post also referenced "broken life force gain" as a general thing you didnt call out specific skills. So which is it?IS undeath broken or is life force gain in general broken?

Keep in mind undeath was fine before the patch..... So was death magic when people again didnt complain because their dps blew it away in 3s flat. A necro could invest in these things and still be melted quite easily by several other professions in the game. So it was "in an ok spot"

So which is it life force gain in general or is it just undeath and death magic?Should death magic not be a proper defense line because we have gone 6 of the 7 years of gw2 without one due to how laughably bad it was up to the rework? (to which some people still consider it bad for general use except with core btw)Suddenly after a game wide nerf death magic is too op and broken? IF necro had gotten buffed i could understand but thats not what happened here everyone was nerfed at the same time and it took that for people to call something that was borderline irrelevant broken and so it needs more nerfing?

The overall message of your suggestion was reworking something that at most just needs to be reverted to its old version into something useless that cant be used in pvp to any serious degree. Making the signet GM trait thats not been used much by the majority of players up till recently irrelevant with immediate shaving which is honestly uncalled for. I like having 2 pvp options between that and spiteful spirit rather than just being pushed into spiteful because lets be real no one is gonna bother using close to death.At the same time you also wanted to suggest shaving almost all other sources more or less for life force generation all at the same time.

So yes this is how you kill a core class. By limiting build paths and cutting everything at once rather than a few things here and there. I can agree to shaving but not culling.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@ZDragon.3046 said:snips

we're not talking about what some players like. we're talking about the current op core build. stay on topic. same goes for sig of undeath. what is so hard to understand? jesus. the current op core necro build is ridiculous and should be nerfed, whatever anet does I hope they shave things instead of killing traits. you keep talking like what I suggested I think should all go thru all at once. maybe the dev team doesn't do that and only chooses to adjust little by little? calm down. anyway if you want to continue to have a convo try to be objective and coherent. yes, there are some broken things on core necro. yes, they should be nerfed. your previous suggestions don't nearly begin to address any problems. its clear you want core necro to remain broken.

[Dadnir.5038]

Well... It's astonishing that nobody thought about simply reducing sPvP/WvW LF pool by 33%. It would end up with the exact same result as reducing all sources of LF by the same amount. The shroud would also effectively drop faster if attacked. And the best is that it wouldn't hurt the dynamic of the profession.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:snips

we're not talking about what some players like. we're talking about the current op core build. stay on topic. same goes for sig of undeath. what is so hard to understand? jesus. the current op core necro build is ridiculous and should be nerfed, whatever anet does I hope they shave things instead of killing traits. you keep talking like what I suggested I think should all go thru all at once. maybe the dev team doesn't do that and only chooses to adjust little by little? calm down. anyway if you want to continue to have a convo try to be objective and coherent. yes, there are some broken things on core necro. yes, they should be nerfed. your previous suggestions don't nearly begin to address any problems. its clear you want core necro to remain broken.

Tbh i have not run across a core necro i couldnt kill yet so maybe its just me.I use reaper btw i play core every once in a while. Ive played it twice i think with a bunker setup since the patch dropped but the rest of my time has been on reaper. without death magic.

What should be clear is that it bothers me to see suggestions like the removal of entire skills and build options which does not need to happen.As i said im ok with shaving things down to reasonable levels but not culling. Read and understand this.You want to turn a signet from a life force building option which can see use across several builds into a AI buffing perk and some how you think this is an ok suggestion for pvp purposes??? I dont know what game you have been playing for the past 7 years but minions have not been relevant in pvp since year 1 or 2 for good reason. Even if your suggestion was taken and minions became viable then you would be ultra tilted about being killed by so many necros using AI pets. Because people hate getting killed by AI its litterally worse than broken mechanics if its viable. You will see it as ultra cheesy and i certainly dont want the meta shifting to that.

To be clear undeath again is not the issue it never was and reverting it would address its potency.

The issue is that anet cut overall dps back a bit too much allowing bunker builds to thrive harder than they should be not just on necro but also on several other professions. You also have to consider that necromancer is not like any other profession in the entire game its is the only damage soaker in the game by nature where as all other professions are more based on avoiding or blocking damage.There is a very very careful balance you have to consider when changing the resources that control how much damage it can take when it has no stability, blocks, evades, stealth, etc.

Again im ok with nerfing things that need it but dont remove them entirely from the game with ideas like changing something into a minion buffer thats just being silly.

We should also wait to see how much dps they are going to add back to the game which could make a big difference.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well... It's astonishing that nobody thought about simply reducing sPvP/WvW LF pool by 33%. It would end up with the exact same result as reducing all sources of LF by the same amount. The shroud would also effectively drop faster if attacked. And the best is that it wouldn't hurt the dynamic of the profession.

I mean i would prob even be ok with this tbh reduced effectiveness up front without killing any play styles or builds directly

[Rickster.8752]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well... It's astonishing that nobody thought about simply reducing sPvP/WvW LF pool by 33%. It would end up with the exact same result as reducing all sources of LF by the same amount. The shroud would also effectively drop faster if attacked. And the best is that it wouldn't hurt the dynamic of the profession.

I mean i would prob even be ok with this tbh reduced effectiveness up front without killing any play styles or builds directly

I'd like this too. It would be a good change

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@ZDragon.3046 said:To be clear undeath again is not the issue it never was and reverting it would address its potency.

The issue is that anet cut overall dps back a bit too much allowing bunker builds to thrive

HMM wonder why bunker necro is able to thrive... maybe it has to do with life force gain. the passive is bad for the game, anyway there is a soul reaping gm that does the same thing. again, for the last time, I don't actually think undeath sig should be changed to a minion heal. it was just a random suggestion. please learn to logic or something.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well... It's astonishing that nobody thought about simply reducing sPvP/WvW LF pool by 33%. It would end up with the exact same result as reducing all sources of LF by the same amount. The shroud would also effectively drop faster if attacked. And the best is that it wouldn't hurt the dynamic of the profession.

that wouldn't really help. it would bring down ttk but not by much since the problem is lf gen plus stacking -dmg mods.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:To be clear undeath again is not the issue it never was and reverting it would address its potency.

The issue is that anet cut overall dps back a bit too much allowing bunker builds to thrive

HMM wonder why bunker necro is able to thrive... maybe it has to do with life force gain. the passive is bad for the game, anyway there is a soul reaping gm that does the same thing. again, for the last time, I don't actually think undeath sig should be changed to a minion heal.

it was just a random suggestion

. please learn to logic or something.

No its because necros design works better in a low damage meta anyone who plays it simi constantly it actually understands this. In a high damage meta on a profession where you cannot dodge/block/ disengage everything that comes at you are bound to take hits.

In a high damage meta where every hit chunks you for 3-6k or more and you dont have evasive options you are food. It takes a considerable amount of skill to not get eaten by any aggressor who looks at you with an empty plate ready to be served a full course meal of kill. There is a reason why the community made a whole pentacle around the diea of focus the necromancer first. Partly because its great at aoe team damage and partly because out of all professions in the game it has the least ways out of a fight once it goes in.

Thats why so many people were also saying pre patch that necro was underperforming because almost anything that went at it with decent skill and understanding ate it.Necro is one of the few professions where counting dodges actually still worked and still does work even now.

Do not fault the whole issue of why its strong on life force generation. Necro is also stronger because now every hit does not chunk it for 4-5k or more it can actually decide not to break a stun or not evade and just take the hits where as other professions will have more evasive and or block options in many cases on lower cooldowns.

Again i already addressed the idea of reducing undeath back to 2% and nerfing a few other traits as well before i started replying to your post so im not against justified nerfs and reductions. Thats where we both agree at the end of all this. So please dont talk to me like you are better for the sake of being better or something i think my logic has been pretty fair through all of this.

[Thorstienn.1642]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well... It's astonishing that nobody thought about simply reducing sPvP/WvW LF pool by 33%. It would end up with the exact same result as reducing all sources of LF by the same amount. The shroud would also effectively drop faster if attacked. And the best is that it wouldn't hurt the dynamic of the profession.

We are talking cores LF right? Not class wide? If so, great, easy fix. If not, no!

[Pies.7462]

Honestly, I'd say the deeper issue for the class is the lack of options. Right now the Signet + Lich Forms, and Leech + MM are the only viable options. But we should ask, why is this the case? It's because ANET has a variety of issues holding back other spec's from being 'viable alternatives,' putting them in a double bind where if they nerf what's good right now, Necro falls off the cliff and has nothing left. But if they leave it how it is, there will only be 1 or 2 builds, and they're both extremely oppressive.

My suggestion is, any nerfs to Necro needs to be countered with either Corruption buffs, or buffs to Condi necro (and the fear Condi in general). Having it be auto-cleansed by other CC's as well as the multitude of AoE condi cleanses (a larger issue right now imo), means that Condi builds by in large do not matter. No bleed will tick more than 5s or so, Chill, Weakness and Cripple even less so. Considering the raw output of Burn and Torment from other classes, and more importantly the CC outputs and types, Condi Necro is woefully lacking. Even just looking at the Terror trait being on the same tier as Dark Path, even if you went full Fear-Generation in talents, utilities and skills, you'd still do more damage with that build just by adopting Dark Path instead.

So Condi Necro (for a variety more reasons as well, but I digress) is effectively out of the running. Wellmancer is out due to the raw mobility and CC-breaking of every class that isn't also called "Necromancer," a full Spectral set was never particularly viable, and Specter is still the black-sheep of PvP that's simply too squishy without an actual shroud to do anything.

Unless you simply want to punish the true Necro-main's out there, including us poor Condi Necro saps, the nerfs to Necro would have to be pointed, and balanced by buffs to other areas that have (by in large) historically been ignored. This would mean a shift of virtually every passive gained in Curses (I mean, a 1.25s bleed on crit? What kind of passive gives 133 dmg 1/3rd of the time on a crit, and then every other passive is just more crit chance, for the CONDI line?!)

[Shao.7236]

@Rickster.8752 said:I'd like to see them nerf life force generation and max life force. Something like this:1, Signet of undeath less effective2, Fear of death gives 7% life force (not 15%)3, Soul battery - max life force increased by 10%, not 20%.4, Gluttony - increased LF gain is 5% not 10%

With all these changes I think necro might be kind of terrible. So I would like to see stability put on spectral armour (and lower protection up time) to stop the CC chaining.

Obviously these nerfs need to come in alongside nerfs to every other class too, as every class has things over-performing. Literally every class needs nerfs, obviously firebrand, a few ele specs, ranger pets, thief stealth, rev invincibility, mirage condi spam, etc etc all need nerfing still.

I don't even think Lifeforce is a problem, just the fact that whenever they are in trouble, unholy sanctuary will save them all the time, 30 seconds is too low and will always save a Necro with a least half shroud to recover.

Doesn't matter how well you outplay one, you will have their shroud that always come and save them right away while wasting 10 hours of your time as they get their cooldowns back.

This whole thing is just a vicious circle that nobody can win without massive user error.

[Fantasylife.7981]

Necro life force needs to be nerf by half just like everyone else power also that weakness fumble -50% damage has like 3 skills that apply weakness is ridiculous just to condi clense for that single skill, but necro is not the only issue. Also the Condition damage on many classes is just overpowering the power dmg. No power build can be tanky and still do high power damage, but condition differs it can be tanky and do high condition damage.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Sall good lads I can smell a nerf. Guess what, itll be served with more than required as usual.

[Black Storm.6974]

Necromancer, by design, has great weaknesses (no stability or low stability depending on the spec, few break stun at long cooldown, very low mobility, no invulnerability) and low damage (especially core necromancer, outside of Lichform that I expect to be balanced).

Core necromancer don’t even have the option to have a decent damage.

Killing necromancers in “no time” is still very possible after the patch, many people simply choose to play builds that can’t do that.

There is just to force people to play what “works”. Someone is pretending to kill necromancers built to be very tanky (but with big weaknesses that every necromancer has) by doing low damage and low CC pressure and that does not make sense.

I’d suggest to remove from PvP the amulets used for the most tanky builds (they are used by necromancer and other professions). They really don’t fit well into PvP after the damage of everyone has been lowered significantly. Several people are also worried about the return of a “tank meta”, this way that can not happen.

After removing those amulets, balancing things will be much easier.

In case those amulets will stay, I agree that a nerf to the necromancer sustain “needs” to be compensated by a buff to something else (maybe some damage and corruption). Anyway, I hope necromancer will have the option to be something different from the “boon corrupter”.

I’m not considering condition damage because I expect ArenaNet to nerf it for every profession, maybe similarly to the power coefficients nerfs.

[Sarrs.4831]

I haven't looked at Lich Form or Moa in a while butWhat if you Moa the Lich?Also I haven't played PvP because my internet's not being kind to me, but where is all the Lich damage coming from? I would think that projectile destruction blunts all, or most, of it.