I have an interesting suggestion (Change stealth)

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 22, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving. Auto attacks are 120 yards ...its not dificult to move some paces..If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went and let hm Backstab you

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , or he hasthe first attack opprotunity each time he restealths ,is something you cannot simply fathomOther games have succefully Stealth mechanics ...Arenanet should stop re-inventing the wheel and do the proper thing if they want to be e-sport

UNOwen.7132 · March 22, 2020

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move during the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt even know was there.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good out of combat. I also know its bad in combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 22, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Virdo.1540 · March 22, 2020

Stealth should be like Superspeed.

Not stackable in duration. Permastealth-problem and all its exploits fixed

UNOwen.7132 · March 22, 2020

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre still at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he cannot be anywhere other than in front of me. He will never be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got nothing out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is entirely an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already underpowered. That makes no sense.

UNOwen.7132 · March 23, 2020

@Virdo.1540 said:Stealth should be like Superspeed.
Not stackable in duration. Permastealth-problem and all its exploits fixed

Honestly, the more that solution is mentioned, the more I find myself agreeing with. It needs an exception for Shadow Refuge (or a rework of Shadow Refuge), but otherwise, yeah.

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 23, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

UNOwen.7132 · March 23, 2020

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would still be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 23, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

UNOwen.7132 · March 23, 2020

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I do know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats already the case right now. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 23, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

b) He move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

UNOwen.7132 · March 23, 2020

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even have that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs buffs, not nerfs.

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 23, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

a) He wouldNT run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might moving from your left

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

edit: brb going to sleepLets continue this in the pvp forums in 3-4 days .I must see some Animes , rather than beeing an a@%^...

UNOwen.7132 · March 23, 2020

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

Well, this is getting tiresome.

a) He would run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

No, he would run out of stealth because dodges take a while, and stealth doesnt last that long. And no, you wont win because youre getting cleaved in the face and unable to backstab.

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

Not without getting a faceful of cleave. And even then, he dodges backwards. You won't get behind him. Simple as that.

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

In his face, not behind him. Your backstab wont backstab. His cleave will cleave. Youre taking a chunk of damage, and then he dodges backwards and you still dont get to backstab.

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might comming from your left

Not an option. Hed have to curve around heavily to do that, and his stealth wont last long enough.

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

Yes. Most of them dont get triggered by DoTs.

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 23, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

Well, this is getting tiresome.

a) He would run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

No, he would run out of stealth because dodges take a while, and stealth doesnt last that long. And no, you wont win because youre getting cleaved in the face and unable to backstab.

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

Not without getting a faceful of cleave. And even then, he dodges backwards. You

won't

get behind him. Simple as that.

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

In his face, not behind him. Your backstab wont backstab. His cleave will cleave. Youre taking a chunk of damage, and then he dodges backwards and you still dont get to backstab.

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might comming from your left

Not an option. Hed have to curve around heavily to do that, and his stealth wont last long enough.

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

Yes. Most of them dont get triggered by DoTs.

a) If he cleaves i have a chance to go in this Back ... I always win because i move faster .Even if i dont run 100 yards to reach his back , i can run 50yards and go for the sides (which count as Backstab)

b) Is any problem with maths here ?You 100% speedHe 50%Both 2 dodgesYou will get on his back or sides

c) The defender dont know you are there , when you use Steal .He immagine you , you are 1200 range away , trying to run away or coming from the sides

d)Steal or Shadowstep , he doesnt know you exist or where you are

In WoW and Elder scroll , any damage (even dots) break the stealthHere Thief can removes Dots , even in stealthSo i Dot the thief > he slowly removes > rush to aoe him before i loose track of him

UNOwen.7132 · March 23, 2020

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

Well, this is getting tiresome.

a) He would run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

No, he would run out of stealth because dodges take a while, and stealth doesnt last that long. And no, you wont win because youre getting cleaved in the face and unable to backstab.

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

Not without getting a faceful of cleave. And even then, he dodges backwards. You

won't

get behind him. Simple as that.

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

In his face, not behind him. Your backstab wont backstab. His cleave will cleave. Youre taking a chunk of damage, and then he dodges backwards and you still dont get to backstab.

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might comming from your left

Not an option. Hed have to curve around heavily to do that, and his stealth wont last long enough.

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

Yes. Most of them dont get triggered by DoTs.

a) If he cleaves i have a chance to go in this Back ... I always win because i move faster .Even if i dont run 100 yards to reach his back , i can run 50yards and go for the sides (which count as Backstab)

You would. But you dont. Here is how it goes. You go within cleave range. Now at this point he has half a second before you catch up to him, and a bit more until youre at his back. So he hits you, and dodges backwards. You take damage, and fail to get in range. Also, moving to the side doesnt work because you need to move more distance for that. Remember, 180°. His back is actually faster than the sides.

b) Is any problem with your maths here ?You 100% speedHe 50%Both 2 dodgesYou will get on his back

No, but there is a problem with your understanding. You have 100% speed. He has 50% speed. You try to move in range. You get cleaved. He dodges backwards. You fail to reach the back. You try to dodge forwards, he does the same, then again. Your stealth runs out, you cant backstab. You fail to reach the back. You mightve noticed something missing here. The version where you reach his back. Thats because it doesnt exist. No matter what, the backstab will fail.

c) The defender dont know you are there , when you use Steal .He immagine you , you are 1200 range away

No actually he knows you are. Either he is dazed, in which case he knows youre there. Or you get hit by his cleave, in which case he knows youre there. There is no version where he doesnt know youre there.

d)Steal or Shadowstep , he doesnt know you exist or where you are

We're talking about in-combat stealth here, not out of combat stealth. Of course he knows you are there, and he knows your general location. In case of Shadowstep, yeah, you get a backstab, but you had to use Shadowstep. Thats not good for you either.

In WoW and Elder scroll , any damage (even dots) break the stealth

And WoW and Elder Scrolls stealth is a problem. As its out of combat stealth leading to cheesy surprise burst you cant really react to. Its also useless in-combat. Thats not what should be done. In fact, we need to do the opposite of WoW and Elder Scrolls. Out of combat stealth should be nerfed, and in-combat stealth buffed.

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 23, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
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@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

Well, this is getting tiresome.

a) He would run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

No, he would run out of stealth because dodges take a while, and stealth doesnt last that long. And no, you wont win because youre getting cleaved in the face and unable to backstab.

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

Not without getting a faceful of cleave. And even then, he dodges backwards. You

won't

get behind him. Simple as that.

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

In his face, not behind him. Your backstab wont backstab. His cleave will cleave. Youre taking a chunk of damage, and then he dodges backwards and you still dont get to backstab.

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might comming from your left

Not an option. Hed have to curve around heavily to do that, and his stealth wont last long enough.

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

Yes. Most of them dont get triggered by DoTs.

a) If he cleaves i have a chance to go in this Back ... I always win because i move faster .Even if i dont run 100 yards to reach his back , i can run 50yards and go for the sides (which count as Backstab)

You would. But you dont. Here is how it goes. You go within cleave range. Now at this point he has half a second before you catch up to him, and a bit more until youre at his back. So he hits you, and dodges backwards. You take damage, and fail to get in range. Also, moving to the side doesnt work because you need to move

more distance

for that. Remember, 180°. His back is actually faster than the sides.

b) Is any problem with your maths here ?You 100% speedHe 50%Both 2 dodgesYou will get on his back

No, but there is a problem with your understanding. You have 100% speed. He has 50% speed. You try to move in range. You get cleaved. He dodges backwards. You fail to reach the back. You try to dodge forwards, he does the same, then again. Your stealth runs out, you cant backstab. You fail to reach the back. You mightve noticed something missing here. The version where you reach his back. Thats because it doesnt exist. No matter what, the backstab will fail.

c) The defender dont know you are there , when you use Steal .He immagine you , you are 1200 range away

No actually he knows you are. Either he is dazed, in which case he knows youre there. Or you get hit by his cleave, in which case he knows youre there. There is no version where he doesnt know youre there.

d)Steal or Shadowstep , he doesnt know you exist or where you are

We're talking about in-combat stealth here, not out of combat stealth. Of course he knows you are there, and he knows your general location. In case of Shadowstep, yeah, you get a backstab, but you had to use Shadowstep. Thats not good for you either.

In WoW and Elder scroll , any damage (even dots) break the stealth

And WoW and Elder Scrolls stealth is a problem. As its out of combat stealth leading to cheesy surprise burst you cant really react to. Its also useless in-combat. Thats not what should be done. In fact, we need to do the

opposite

of WoW and Elder Scrolls. Out of combat stealth should be nerfed, and in-combat stealth

buffed

.

a) You dont have to travel extra distance .....You can stay inside his body , like a half anatomy doll . Behind the eyelobes , half his skull counts as Back-stableYou Steal >He attacks> You dodge > Uncatchable traits activate https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable > He is slowed >Backstab or Sidestab

b) Maths check : if some1 is slower and both have 2 dodges , then the one moving faster ALWAYS will reach it goalIts sience

c) The only way he is dazed is you took the trait that Daze and not the Quick Pockets (Gain initiative on swapping weapons while in combat)

d) Again we come in rounds : Many games are moving away from GW2 stealth . Even Smite Loki has the same stealth and will be altered to a Outliner -see for some minisec each time he is attacked

UNOwen.7132 · March 23, 2020

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@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

Well, this is getting tiresome.

a) He would run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

No, he would run out of stealth because dodges take a while, and stealth doesnt last that long. And no, you wont win because youre getting cleaved in the face and unable to backstab.

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

Not without getting a faceful of cleave. And even then, he dodges backwards. You

won't

get behind him. Simple as that.

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

In his face, not behind him. Your backstab wont backstab. His cleave will cleave. Youre taking a chunk of damage, and then he dodges backwards and you still dont get to backstab.

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might comming from your left

Not an option. Hed have to curve around heavily to do that, and his stealth wont last long enough.

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

Yes. Most of them dont get triggered by DoTs.

a) If he cleaves i have a chance to go in this Back ... I always win because i move faster .Even if i dont run 100 yards to reach his back , i can run 50yards and go for the sides (which count as Backstab)

You would. But you dont. Here is how it goes. You go within cleave range. Now at this point he has half a second before you catch up to him, and a bit more until youre at his back. So he hits you, and dodges backwards. You take damage, and fail to get in range. Also, moving to the side doesnt work because you need to move

more distance

for that. Remember, 180°. His back is actually faster than the sides.

b) Is any problem with your maths here ?You 100% speedHe 50%Both 2 dodgesYou will get on his back

No, but there is a problem with your understanding. You have 100% speed. He has 50% speed. You try to move in range. You get cleaved. He dodges backwards. You fail to reach the back. You try to dodge forwards, he does the same, then again. Your stealth runs out, you cant backstab. You fail to reach the back. You mightve noticed something missing here. The version where you reach his back. Thats because it doesnt exist. No matter what, the backstab will fail.

c) The defender dont know you are there , when you use Steal .He immagine you , you are 1200 range away

No actually he knows you are. Either he is dazed, in which case he knows youre there. Or you get hit by his cleave, in which case he knows youre there. There is no version where he doesnt know youre there.

d)Steal or Shadowstep , he doesnt know you exist or where you are

We're talking about in-combat stealth here, not out of combat stealth. Of course he knows you are there, and he knows your general location. In case of Shadowstep, yeah, you get a backstab, but you had to use Shadowstep. Thats not good for you either.

In WoW and Elder scroll , any damage (even dots) break the stealth

And WoW and Elder Scrolls stealth is a problem. As its out of combat stealth leading to cheesy surprise burst you cant really react to. Its also useless in-combat. Thats not what should be done. In fact, we need to do the

opposite

of WoW and Elder Scrolls. Out of combat stealth should be nerfed, and in-combat stealth

buffed

.

a) You dont have to travel extra distance .....You can stay inside his body , like a half anatomy doll . Behind the eyelobes , half his skull counts as Back-stableYou Steal >He attacks> You dodge > Uncatchable traits activate

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable

> He is slowed >Backstab or Sidestab

You do, your model has to be within a 180° angle behind their model. Within you dont count at all. Also, there are no stealth builds running uncatchable. Hell there are barely any thief builds running uncatchable.

b) You dont have to go in the Back ... or use https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable to slow him down

Same answer as above, yes you do, no noone uses uncatchable.

c) The only way he is dazed is you took the trait that Daze and not the Quick Pockets (Gain initiative on swapping weapons while in combat)

.... uh, yeah. People use Sleight of Hand. Noone uses Quick Pockets. Im starting to think you havent even seen anyone play thief.

d) Again we come in rounds : Many games are moving away from GW2 stealth . Even Smite Loki has the same stealth and will be altered to a Outliner -see for some minisec each time he is attacked

No, actually, theyre all moving towards GW2 stealth. What people are moving away from is WoW type stealth. Thing is, they dont have things like cleave or on-hit traits to keep track of enemies. As such, they utilise outlines to make up for what GW2 inherently has.

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 23, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

Well, this is getting tiresome.

a) He would run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

No, he would run out of stealth because dodges take a while, and stealth doesnt last that long. And no, you wont win because youre getting cleaved in the face and unable to backstab.

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

Not without getting a faceful of cleave. And even then, he dodges backwards. You

won't

get behind him. Simple as that.

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

In his face, not behind him. Your backstab wont backstab. His cleave will cleave. Youre taking a chunk of damage, and then he dodges backwards and you still dont get to backstab.

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might comming from your left

Not an option. Hed have to curve around heavily to do that, and his stealth wont last long enough.

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

Yes. Most of them dont get triggered by DoTs.

a) If he cleaves i have a chance to go in this Back ... I always win because i move faster .Even if i dont run 100 yards to reach his back , i can run 50yards and go for the sides (which count as Backstab)

You would. But you dont. Here is how it goes. You go within cleave range. Now at this point he has half a second before you catch up to him, and a bit more until youre at his back. So he hits you, and dodges backwards. You take damage, and fail to get in range. Also, moving to the side doesnt work because you need to move

more distance

for that. Remember, 180°. His back is actually faster than the sides.

b) Is any problem with your maths here ?You 100% speedHe 50%Both 2 dodgesYou will get on his back

No, but there is a problem with your understanding. You have 100% speed. He has 50% speed. You try to move in range. You get cleaved. He dodges backwards. You fail to reach the back. You try to dodge forwards, he does the same, then again. Your stealth runs out, you cant backstab. You fail to reach the back. You mightve noticed something missing here. The version where you reach his back. Thats because it doesnt exist. No matter what, the backstab will fail.

c) The defender dont know you are there , when you use Steal .He immagine you , you are 1200 range away

No actually he knows you are. Either he is dazed, in which case he knows youre there. Or you get hit by his cleave, in which case he knows youre there. There is no version where he doesnt know youre there.

d)Steal or Shadowstep , he doesnt know you exist or where you are

We're talking about in-combat stealth here, not out of combat stealth. Of course he knows you are there, and he knows your general location. In case of Shadowstep, yeah, you get a backstab, but you had to use Shadowstep. Thats not good for you either.

In WoW and Elder scroll , any damage (even dots) break the stealth

And WoW and Elder Scrolls stealth is a problem. As its out of combat stealth leading to cheesy surprise burst you cant really react to. Its also useless in-combat. Thats not what should be done. In fact, we need to do the

opposite

of WoW and Elder Scrolls. Out of combat stealth should be nerfed, and in-combat stealth

buffed

.

a) You dont have to travel extra distance .....You can stay inside his body , like a half anatomy doll . Behind the eyelobes , half his skull counts as Back-stableYou Steal >He attacks> You dodge > Uncatchable traits activate

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable

> He is slowed >Backstab or Sidestab

You do, your model has to be within a 180° angle behind their model. Within you dont count at all. Also, there are no stealth builds running uncatchable. Hell there are barely

any

thief builds running uncatchable.

b) You dont have to go in the Back ... or use
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable
to slow him down

Same answer as above, yes you do, no noone uses uncatchable.

c) The only way he is dazed is you took the trait that Daze and not the Quick Pockets (Gain initiative on swapping weapons while in combat)

.... uh, yeah. People use Sleight of Hand. Noone uses Quick Pockets. Im starting to think you havent even seen anyone play thief.

d) Again we come in rounds : Many games are moving away from GW2 stealth . Even Smite Loki has the same stealth and will be altered to a Outliner -see for some minisec each time he is attacked

No, actually, theyre all moving

towards

GW2 stealth. What people are moving away from is WoW type stealth. Thing is, they dont have things like cleave or on-hit traits to keep track of enemies. As such, they utilise outlines to make up for what GW2 inherently has.

a) There are theif that can always reach their target to do a proper Backstab .But if your problem that you cannot reachyour target , you can use that trait :PThe180 degree character doesnt start outside ... but from his axis that starts in his skull

b) Better ujse, because it seem you have some problem , catching upcharacter that move 50% slower

c) In our previous conversations you said , that Hartseeker +Black Powder combo comsume , alot ammount of innactiveWhy you dont use that trait ?The daze trait , it will show the enemy you are near

d) All are moving away from GW2 stealthEither they have mobility debufs , or break on damage or get outlines

UNOwen.7132 · March 23, 2020

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

Well, this is getting tiresome.

a) He would run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

No, he would run out of stealth because dodges take a while, and stealth doesnt last that long. And no, you wont win because youre getting cleaved in the face and unable to backstab.

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

Not without getting a faceful of cleave. And even then, he dodges backwards. You

won't

get behind him. Simple as that.

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

In his face, not behind him. Your backstab wont backstab. His cleave will cleave. Youre taking a chunk of damage, and then he dodges backwards and you still dont get to backstab.

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might comming from your left

Not an option. Hed have to curve around heavily to do that, and his stealth wont last long enough.

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

Yes. Most of them dont get triggered by DoTs.

a) If he cleaves i have a chance to go in this Back ... I always win because i move faster .Even if i dont run 100 yards to reach his back , i can run 50yards and go for the sides (which count as Backstab)

You would. But you dont. Here is how it goes. You go within cleave range. Now at this point he has half a second before you catch up to him, and a bit more until youre at his back. So he hits you, and dodges backwards. You take damage, and fail to get in range. Also, moving to the side doesnt work because you need to move

more distance

for that. Remember, 180°. His back is actually faster than the sides.

b) Is any problem with your maths here ?You 100% speedHe 50%Both 2 dodgesYou will get on his back

No, but there is a problem with your understanding. You have 100% speed. He has 50% speed. You try to move in range. You get cleaved. He dodges backwards. You fail to reach the back. You try to dodge forwards, he does the same, then again. Your stealth runs out, you cant backstab. You fail to reach the back. You mightve noticed something missing here. The version where you reach his back. Thats because it doesnt exist. No matter what, the backstab will fail.

c) The defender dont know you are there , when you use Steal .He immagine you , you are 1200 range away

No actually he knows you are. Either he is dazed, in which case he knows youre there. Or you get hit by his cleave, in which case he knows youre there. There is no version where he doesnt know youre there.

d)Steal or Shadowstep , he doesnt know you exist or where you are

We're talking about in-combat stealth here, not out of combat stealth. Of course he knows you are there, and he knows your general location. In case of Shadowstep, yeah, you get a backstab, but you had to use Shadowstep. Thats not good for you either.

In WoW and Elder scroll , any damage (even dots) break the stealth

And WoW and Elder Scrolls stealth is a problem. As its out of combat stealth leading to cheesy surprise burst you cant really react to. Its also useless in-combat. Thats not what should be done. In fact, we need to do the

opposite

of WoW and Elder Scrolls. Out of combat stealth should be nerfed, and in-combat stealth

buffed

.

a) You dont have to travel extra distance .....You can stay inside his body , like a half anatomy doll . Behind the eyelobes , half his skull counts as Back-stableYou Steal >He attacks> You dodge > Uncatchable traits activate

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable

> He is slowed >Backstab or Sidestab

You do, your model has to be within a 180° angle behind their model. Within you dont count at all. Also, there are no stealth builds running uncatchable. Hell there are barely

any

thief builds running uncatchable.

b) You dont have to go in the Back ... or use
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable
to slow him down

Same answer as above, yes you do, no noone uses uncatchable.

c) The only way he is dazed is you took the trait that Daze and not the Quick Pockets (Gain initiative on swapping weapons while in combat)

.... uh, yeah. People use Sleight of Hand. Noone uses Quick Pockets. Im starting to think you havent even seen anyone play thief.

d) Again we come in rounds : Many games are moving away from GW2 stealth . Even Smite Loki has the same stealth and will be altered to a Outliner -see for some minisec each time he is attacked

No, actually, theyre all moving

towards

GW2 stealth. What people are moving away from is WoW type stealth. Thing is, they dont have things like cleave or on-hit traits to keep track of enemies. As such, they utilise outlines to make up for what GW2 inherently has.

a) There are theif that can always reach their target to do a proper Backstab .But if your problem that you cannot reachyour target , you can use that trait :PThe180 degree character doesnt start outside ... but from his axis that starts in his skull

From in-combat stealth? There arent. Mostly because no thief is going to go for in-combat stealth backstabs. Its a terrible idea. You go stealth up out of combat, try to burst them, and if they live you just disengage.

b) Better ujse, because it seem you have some problem , catching upcharacter that move 50% slower

Funny you think Im the thief and not the opponent. Besides, as I have explained multiple times (and I wont explain one more time), its not about catching up. Its about the fact that the thief will not be able to reach the back without being noticed by cleave, and allowing the enemy to just dodge backwards. Or to put it simple, what stealth does is let your opponent get in free damage while you are unable to fight back. Thats why in-combat stealth is bad, and why you dont use it.

c) Fews answers above you said , that Hartseeker +Black Powder combo comsume , alot ammount of innactiveSo yeah i go in circles too:P

I have no idea what youre trying to say here.

d) All are moving away from GW2 stealthEither they have mobility debufs , or break on damage or get outlines

Nope, towards GW2 stealth. None use the first 2 anymore. Thats the WoW method and its bad. Like, incredibly bad. Stealth being broken on stealth is incredibly terrible design. The outlines are used sometimes (only sometimes though, plenty of games dont even have them), and as Ive explained, theyre used because the things GW2 inherently has dont work for those games. Or in simpler terms, GW2 effectively has outlines already. Theyre just not outlines per se.

So, just to leave this off once and for all. Out of combat stealth is too good. In combat stealth is too bad. You are trying to leave out of combat stealth alone while nerfing in combat stealth. Thats stupid. The opposite should be done. Nerf out of combat stealth, buff in combat stealth.

Killthehealersffs.8940 · March 23, 2020

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@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

Well, this is getting tiresome.

a) He would run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

No, he would run out of stealth because dodges take a while, and stealth doesnt last that long. And no, you wont win because youre getting cleaved in the face and unable to backstab.

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

Not without getting a faceful of cleave. And even then, he dodges backwards. You

won't

get behind him. Simple as that.

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

In his face, not behind him. Your backstab wont backstab. His cleave will cleave. Youre taking a chunk of damage, and then he dodges backwards and you still dont get to backstab.

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might comming from your left

Not an option. Hed have to curve around heavily to do that, and his stealth wont last long enough.

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

Yes. Most of them dont get triggered by DoTs.

a) If he cleaves i have a chance to go in this Back ... I always win because i move faster .Even if i dont run 100 yards to reach his back , i can run 50yards and go for the sides (which count as Backstab)

You would. But you dont. Here is how it goes. You go within cleave range. Now at this point he has half a second before you catch up to him, and a bit more until youre at his back. So he hits you, and dodges backwards. You take damage, and fail to get in range. Also, moving to the side doesnt work because you need to move

more distance

for that. Remember, 180°. His back is actually faster than the sides.

b) Is any problem with your maths here ?You 100% speedHe 50%Both 2 dodgesYou will get on his back

No, but there is a problem with your understanding. You have 100% speed. He has 50% speed. You try to move in range. You get cleaved. He dodges backwards. You fail to reach the back. You try to dodge forwards, he does the same, then again. Your stealth runs out, you cant backstab. You fail to reach the back. You mightve noticed something missing here. The version where you reach his back. Thats because it doesnt exist. No matter what, the backstab will fail.

c) The defender dont know you are there , when you use Steal .He immagine you , you are 1200 range away

No actually he knows you are. Either he is dazed, in which case he knows youre there. Or you get hit by his cleave, in which case he knows youre there. There is no version where he doesnt know youre there.

d)Steal or Shadowstep , he doesnt know you exist or where you are

We're talking about in-combat stealth here, not out of combat stealth. Of course he knows you are there, and he knows your general location. In case of Shadowstep, yeah, you get a backstab, but you had to use Shadowstep. Thats not good for you either.

In WoW and Elder scroll , any damage (even dots) break the stealth

And WoW and Elder Scrolls stealth is a problem. As its out of combat stealth leading to cheesy surprise burst you cant really react to. Its also useless in-combat. Thats not what should be done. In fact, we need to do the

opposite

of WoW and Elder Scrolls. Out of combat stealth should be nerfed, and in-combat stealth

buffed

.

a) You dont have to travel extra distance .....You can stay inside his body , like a half anatomy doll . Behind the eyelobes , half his skull counts as Back-stableYou Steal >He attacks> You dodge > Uncatchable traits activate

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable

> He is slowed >Backstab or Sidestab

You do, your model has to be within a 180° angle behind their model. Within you dont count at all. Also, there are no stealth builds running uncatchable. Hell there are barely

any

thief builds running uncatchable.

b) You dont have to go in the Back ... or use
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable
to slow him down

Same answer as above, yes you do, no noone uses uncatchable.

c) The only way he is dazed is you took the trait that Daze and not the Quick Pockets (Gain initiative on swapping weapons while in combat)

.... uh, yeah. People use Sleight of Hand. Noone uses Quick Pockets. Im starting to think you havent even seen anyone play thief.

d) Again we come in rounds : Many games are moving away from GW2 stealth . Even Smite Loki has the same stealth and will be altered to a Outliner -see for some minisec each time he is attacked

No, actually, theyre all moving

towards

GW2 stealth. What people are moving away from is WoW type stealth. Thing is, they dont have things like cleave or on-hit traits to keep track of enemies. As such, they utilise outlines to make up for what GW2 inherently has.

a) There are theif that can always reach their target to do a proper Backstab .But if your problem that you cannot reachyour target , you can use that trait :PThe180 degree character doesnt start outside ... but from his axis that starts in his skull

From in-combat stealth? There arent. Mostly because no thief is going to go for in-combat stealth backstabs. Its a terrible idea. You go stealth up out of combat, try to burst them, and if they live you just disengage.

b) Better ujse, because it seem you have some problem , catching upcharacter that move 50% slower

Funny you think Im the thief and not the opponent. Besides, as I have explained multiple times (and I wont explain one more time), its not about catching up. Its about the fact that the thief will not be able to reach the back without being noticed by cleave, and allowing the enemy to just dodge backwards. Or to put it simple, what stealth does is let your opponent get in free damage while you are unable to fight back. Thats why in-combat stealth is bad, and why you dont use it.

c) Fews answers above you said , that Hartseeker +Black Powder combo comsume , alot ammount of innactiveSo yeah i go in circles too:P

I have no idea what youre trying to say here.

d) All are moving away from GW2 stealthEither they have mobility debufs , or break on damage or get outlines

Nope, towards GW2 stealth.

None

use the first 2 anymore. Thats the WoW method and its

bad

. Like, incredibly bad. Stealth being broken on stealth is incredibly terrible design. The outlines are used sometimes (only sometimes though, plenty of games dont even have them), and as Ive explained, theyre used because the things GW2 inherently has dont work for those games. Or in simpler terms, GW2 effectively has outlines already. Theyre just not outlines per se.

So, just to leave this off once and for all. Out of combat stealth is too good. In combat stealth is too bad. You are trying to leave out of combat stealth alone while nerfing in combat stealth. Thats stupid. The opposite should be done. Nerf out of combat stealth,

buff

in combat stealth.

a) This why we need an outliner -track the thief .If Theif dont kill his target , then the victim have a chance to track him and have a more balanced 1v1 , rather than playing ''guess where the thief will come from''

b) Again you can stealth and change directionsThe victim will move towards the direction your heartseeker was aimedYou simply dodge and d o slighty curve toward him and try to hit his sides

c) If you scroll up , in the part when i told you can use Hidden Thief , youtold me that no1 uses that , and most use Hartseeker +Black Powder combo for stealth . And that consume a huge amount of your Thief resources .If you have some many problems you can use Quick Pockets , rather than a silly Daze

d) I am trying to implant our original idea ... an outliner... a ghost .... a blood-red circle on the ground

edit: sorry for a beeing a d@% .Sorry againbb

GDchiaScrub.3241 · March 23, 2020

Nah. Sounds like DnD invisibility. I think we should use the janky stealth mechanics of Bethesda games, and see how that goes. Next we can start introducing mods, and eventually those RoversRab mods that's all the rage.

D:

XenesisII.1540 · March 23, 2020

Remove access to dodge while in stealth.

Svarty.8019 · March 23, 2020

@"Sobx.1758" said:And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

Ah finally, common ground. Let's all agree that the duration of stealth should be 0 and we're done!

UNOwen.7132 · March 23, 2020

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
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@Sobx.1758 said:
@"Svarty.8019" said:was thinking of a super-power to apply to the most powerful object in the world, he came up with Stealth.

100% true, that's why the most powerful fictional entities, superheroes 'and others' totally abuse stealth all the time as their OP ability. (??)You seem to be a little biased with your example here, buddy -even if we conveniently "forget" that the ring did much more than that btw. :D

Detargetting. I can't target him/her, I can't hit him/her.

If stealth didn't detarget, what exactly would be the point of it? Also channeled/aoe skills still finish casting/deal dmg.

Here is my second biggest beef with stealth:
Massive damage from nowhere.

Backstab? Maybe. But the last time I got hit with a backstab, it was slightly over 5k dmg crit when I was in full berk. lmao.And still the biggest (I dare say "only") problem here is the duration of stealth, not the stealth mechanic itself.

You can avoid any channeling effects , with a simple dodge .And when he cannot target you , he cannot recast a channeling effect .

Most channeled effects actually last so long that a single dodge wont save you. Rapid Fire is a

loooong

channel. Itll continue through a dodge.

Whit berseker gear + a signet that offer 560 attack power (almost 40% of your gear) , you can deal 7/8k

On a squishy target, but yes. 7/8k is not that much. I can hit that in an AoE with Grenade Barrage on my Core Engineer. Dont even need setup for it. Also, on any target that isnt glass, itll be closer to 5k.

Stealth as problematic mechanic , where like Smite + WoW + Elder Scrolls , should reveal the player on getting damage

That is a

terrible

idea. Stealths problem is that its to good when used out of combat, i.e. when the enemy is ganking you and oneshotting you. In-combat, stealth is already really weak. Your suggestion would turn in-combat stealth from weak to absolutely unusable, while out of combat stealth remains practically untouched.

The majority of the Rangers have quickness casted before they started rapid-fire.One dodge will clear most of the damage .If they dont .... you will take 2 remaining shots for 2,5-3k total damage . Or punish his for believing that aslong he casted the channeling spell , he is safe

Even then it will cover a dodge. Also you would be eating so much damage its not funny. And no, you wont be able to "punish" the soulbeast. Youre at best half health and in Maul kill range.

How again is weak ?You can use the stealth a a single dodge to reposition yourself in 480 yards around your target , in various angles (he is northwest of you 300 yards ...or he is south 480 comeing to Backstab you)

First of all, dodge moves you

300

units, not 480. Dash moves you 450, but that requires Daredevil. Second, you had to waste a dash to prevent the opponent from fully tracking you, and you left yourself wide open. And even then, what next? Your opponent is gonna start cleaving or throwing out AoEs under his feet. Youre not gonna be able to approach them to hit them without taking a lot of damage. And no matter how you stealth up, there is no way for you to stealth up without, even with a dodge, putting yourself in a cone area. The enemy can just prevent you from backstabing him.

The victim will simply panic and waste attacks left and right , to ''hit you''

Nah Id just start cleaving with my autos, and once a hit connects, then Id follow up with actual skills. Simple, reliably, and hugely punishes stealth.

Whatever way we try to nerf Stealth , there will be the problem where ''Steal'' teleport you to your target + stealth has not movement penalty for the victim to run away from perma stealth .

If you want to run away from a thief (which Im not sure why you would want to, just fight them and theyll run away from you), then either youre not Warrior, in which case you cant (but also wouldnt be able to run away from Warrior), or youre Warrior, in which case you peace out.

Steal is a integrade part of thief kit , so it will be never removed . The only option is : If the target survive > kite and dont allow any stealth character to restealth and do the ''where the stealth guy again!+ prepere for burst round 2 !''' game

Its really not though. For most of the past few years, Thieves barely used stealth. Specifically, blinding powder. Thats it. No other form of stealth. Stealth only started being used by out of stealth burst builds, and they still avoid stealthing up in-combat because of how bad it is. Your "option" isnt an option, it specifically does absolutely

nothing

to how stealth is currently used, and kills the

already underperforming

in-combat stealth usage. The only actual option is to nerf out of combat stealth (max duration, promitiy indicator, reduced damage after X seconds in stealth, whatever), and

buff

in-combat stealth until its actually usable.

a) While he belives that he is immortal casting Rapid Fire you can attack him .If not ...then use a second dodge and the third one for Maul .

Yeah sure, try to fight back while his Rapidfire is trained on you. Good luck surviving the 12k+ damage headed your way. And sure, you can use 2 dodges on Rapid Fire and one on Maul and then ... you still get hit by Worldly Impact and die. Or really just autoattacked down. The Rangers damage is quite a lot higher than yours.

b) its 300 and you easy cover few paces with simply moving.If he start cleaing/doing spells , he is wasting spells .Backstabing Works from sides too (from your left ear > Back> right ear) .Its 180 degree of your character .

You get a burst of 300, and then you have to move. But the opponent can even move

during

the dodge. They will be able to keep you in a cone, and funnel you in. And no, he is only wasting spells if he isnt hitting you, and even then he isnt because that forces you to preemptively waste a dodge. And yes, backstabbing works in a 180° half-circle. Youre however in a cone in front of them. There is no way to get to the backstab spot without being cleaved down.

There is no sequnese of attacks that will do CONSTADLY for 12K and last for 1 whole min , prevending him from getting backstab .He will put a aoe > you get 3 stack of bleed + 1 poison > you aattack him

I dont need to hit for 12k. I just need to do decent damage. A single backstab wont ever kill me, and in-combat stealth wont even allow him to get a back backstab without wasting a shadowstep.

c) You will hit him with your autos?From which direction ?Is he already behind you or on your left ?

He is in a cone in front of me. I dont know where exactly, but I dont need to. He has no way to move behind me or to the left of me without burning a shadowstep, or getting cleaved down. Hell in the latter case I can just dodge backwards and he wont even hit one.

d) Movement speed reduction exist, so stealth gives a counterplay . Its your fault if you stay still or went the same direction as the thief went

Are you ... arguing against yourself? I have no idea. Again, the problem with stealth is being hit by an attack from a class you didnt

even know was there

.

e) I am sorry , but you lack immagination and you dont know how stealth is preety good .Having something that dont give any indication, if your spell hit of not the target , or if the enemy is near or far from you , Or where is coming , is something you cannot simply fathom

I know stealth is good

out

of combat. I also know its bad

in

combat. Also, actually you do get indication if your spell hit or not (autoattacks progress to the next chain, on X effects get used up, and unless its changed a while back, you still get the damage in the combat log. Dont actually know that part, I dont play with the combat log on because the condi ticks annoy me. Since you know where the thief was as he stealthed, you can actually tell how far away he is based on whether you hit him, or not. He can only move so far. In-combat, stealth is bad because it just lets the enemy hit you for free damage while you cannot fight back.

a) Using single dodge you can avoid 80% of the damage of the Rapid FireYou dont have Black Powder or SDaze from the offpistol/other weapon to avoid any Maul+ World Implact ?

You cannot. Best you can do is 60%, if its with Quickness. If its without Quickness, a single Dodge roll will only dodge 30%. 40% alone is more than enough. And, you want to use black Powder after going into stealth with ... what initiative? You likely just used it to stealth up. But even then, lets say you do that. Youre

still

at a disadvantage.

b) Ok ...i dodge in the same direction the theif dodge .If he on front of my ? Has he already moved more paces and he is behind me ?Did he dodge roll again , to avoid my burst and he is on my left ?

I never said I dodged. And I will repeat myself only this once more. I know the thief is in a cone in front of me. Here is how it works. The thief stealths up. There is no way to stealth up without landing a good distance away from me other than black powder + Heartseeker (And in that case I just dodge backwards on the heartseeker and walk backwards while cleaving). So, he is in that cone. And Im moving away from him. From this position he

cannot

be anywhere other than in front of me. He will

never

be to the left of me, to the right of me, or behind me. ONLY in front of me.

c) You dont need to use shadowstep .... use Steal its free... or his character has 180 degree cone to be Backstabed . Plenty of oprotunities

No you do need to use shadowstep. Here is what happens if you steal. You steal. I get dazed, know the thief is there, dodge backwards, and continue cleaving as the daze runs out. You wasted your steal and achieved nothing, unable to get a backstab, and merely a fronstab. Or even worse, I have stability, I ignore the daze, hit you with cleave, and then dodge backwards, getting extra damage.

d) If there was a movement penalty, the victim could avoid Backstbed by any stealth character , regadles if the thief had 1 min stealth or 3 sec

Once again, I have no idea what youre talking about. Thief backstabs people who dont know the thief is there, and as a result show him their back. If they know the thief is there, they can prevent him from getting a back backstab.

e) Not every class has the attack power or Axe Warriors to Chop-Chop and scare the thief .How much damage the thief will take from auto before he start attacking ? 3k or 4k ?Are you going to waste aoe spells , in order the thief might be on your back ? If you waste them how you will punish him later ?Normaly in other games ...if i hit the thief we would loose his stealth and wouldnt have the optotunity to Backstab me

Actually, every class does have more than enough power to hit the thief hard. And sure, lets say its 4k. Thats still 4k free damage on the thief, he was unable to backstab ,and he got

nothing

out of it. Also as I said, I dont "waste" AoE spells. I use them when I know the thief is close to force him to burn defenses, or I use free ones like Grenade Kit 1.

Actually, no. Normally in other games if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline. The only MMOs that have that are ones where stealth is

entirely

an out of combat things, and thats the very issue in the game in the first place.

To repeat myself. You want to ignore the actual problem with stealth, and nerf the part that is already

underpowered

. That makes no sense.

a) Theres traits that give Steal >Stealth . Such as Hidden Thief .You dont need to spent resources for that .If he hasnt Quickness , then 2 dodges will do the trick . Or simply OffPistol Daze > then use Steal (Hidden Thief)

Hidden Thief. Noone uses that trait. So, its a moot point. Also, in that case you just put yourself in cleave range while not being able to back backstab them. Not great, is it? Thats part of why noone picks hidden thief btw.

b) So you will go in the place where the theif went and did the black powder + Heartseeker combo ?And then what ? stay still and do aoes?120 yards is the range of auto attacks ... the thief can move in that distance its 0.3 sec , by simply walkingHe will let you , aoe him to death ? He wont dodge once ?By spamming auto attacks , you let open yourself to be Backstabed

Why would I go towards the thief? Im only interested in not letting him backstab. If he wants to run, he wants to run, that doesnt make him the 1v1, he just doesnt lose. My objective isnt to kill the thief, its to not lose the 1v1. So, what I do is I back away from the thief while cleaving. And no, you dont let yourself open to backstab at all. The most he can get is a frontstab, and that just aint worth it.

c)You dodge backwards while dazed and he dodged fordwards . so there is not distance between you .You move backwards , so you move in 50% speed , while he is coimmng towards you in 100%

If he wants to waste a dodge on that, his choice. Thing is, after the dodge I can attack again. If my cleave hits, I can dodge backwards again. Or use backwards mobility. Or drop an AoE on my point. Plenty of options, not much the thief can do.

d) If i wouldnt allow the theif to restealth , he wouldnt suprice me for a second time .That why stealth should break on damage , rather than waitng for the Thief to open on me for a second time

If he is stealthing up in-combat, he isnt surprising you. In fact, he is actually putting himself in danger. And no ,stealth absolutely shouldnt break on damage. At that point you can just delete stealth alltogether, and that would

still

be way better than your suggestion.

e) Yeah thats i am talking about :'' if you hit a stealthed character, the most you get is a brief outline''If i keep hittingthe Thief and dont allow him to go away from me , i can ''outline him'' for longerOr use Dots

"Outline" in this context is that you get his silhouette revealed for a split-second. The thief remains in stealth. You still cant target him. You just see his location. Its basically the thing we have right now with cleave and AoEs.

a)b) You move 50% if you trying to hide your back and slowly back awayIn stealth you dont know if he is already behind you or not , because you are slow .If you show your back he will Steal>Backstab you

You do. But that doesnt matter. He cant get to you without being hit by cleave and being revealed. And in fact I

do

know, short of shadowstep being used, that he isnt behind me. Because he has to move through me. And be hit by cleave.

c) You can dodge as many times you wantYou are wasting your survibility , and also moving 50% slower

See above: Doesnt matter. Besides, Im not wasting survivability. Im either dodging an attack he already launched, or matching his dodge/preemptively dodging a backstab.

d) You cannot kite him , because you are slow moving backwards

I dont need to kite him. I need to force him to take cleave damage to be able to possibly backstab me, and then fail anyway because I just dodge backwards while he took massive damage.

e) Yes , so attacking him i can see a Red dot... an outlineSo if i keep auto attacking him , he wont get on my BackThats i am talking aboutOr if i cast Dots +Chill on him from afar i can see his Red Dot on the ground

Thats

already the case right now

. You cleave him down. He cant get to your back. The outline would do practically nothing other than making you track him slightly more precisely. Also it wouldnt apply to DoTs. Obviously.

a) As a daredevil he would have 3 dodges , or a core thief can equip Feline Grace + Endless StaminaSo either way he will have an extra dodge to ain more distance

By that point his stealth wouldve run out. So, no, he doesnt have an extra dodge. You also forget that core D/P Thief doesnt run Acrobatics. So he wouldnt even

have

that option.

b) You move 50% slower . Whikl he is doing the dodge animation you can frely move , without worring if he attacks you.And when he dodges ends and start attack , you will dodge

As I said, doesnt matter. Slower or not, you create a scenario where he simply cant get behind you. Thats really all there is to it.

c) How much damage yourautos will do ?He cannnot dodge them ?

Enough, and not if wants to cross the distance with a dodge in the first place or leave himself extremely vulnerable post-reveal. Thats the beauty of it. When the thief stealths up in combat, he gives you the advantage for free.

d)You cleave and you dont know if you hit him or where he isEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH why dots shouldnt aply to it ?As theif you have otpion to remove Dots !!!!

Actually you do know that you hit him (autoattack swaps to the next chain after all) and roughly where he is. And because that would break the whole thing. I mean, frankly I dont think an outline is a good idea as is, in-combat stealth needs

buffs

, not nerfs.

Well, this is getting tiresome.

a) He would run out of stealth because Steal put you into range .He moves 50% slower , so if both have 2 dodges the offender/whoever moves faster, always win

No, he would run out of stealth because dodges take a while, and stealth doesnt last that long. And no, you wont win because youre getting cleaved in the face and unable to backstab.

b) He is slower , you will get on his back

Not without getting a faceful of cleave. And even then, he dodges backwards. You

won't

get behind him. Simple as that.

c) With steal , you will right in his face , he doesnt have an space tooperate

In his face, not behind him. Your backstab wont backstab. His cleave will cleave. Youre taking a chunk of damage, and then he dodges backwards and you still dont get to backstab.

e) auto attacks have 120 yards radium , he might comming from your left

Not an option. Hed have to curve around heavily to do that, and his stealth wont last long enough.

WAIT A @!!!# SEC , YOU SAID ABOUT THE OUTLINER THAT OTHER GAMES HAVE .......

Yes. Most of them dont get triggered by DoTs.

a) If he cleaves i have a chance to go in this Back ... I always win because i move faster .Even if i dont run 100 yards to reach his back , i can run 50yards and go for the sides (which count as Backstab)

You would. But you dont. Here is how it goes. You go within cleave range. Now at this point he has half a second before you catch up to him, and a bit more until youre at his back. So he hits you, and dodges backwards. You take damage, and fail to get in range. Also, moving to the side doesnt work because you need to move

more distance

for that. Remember, 180°. His back is actually faster than the sides.

b) Is any problem with your maths here ?You 100% speedHe 50%Both 2 dodgesYou will get on his back

No, but there is a problem with your understanding. You have 100% speed. He has 50% speed. You try to move in range. You get cleaved. He dodges backwards. You fail to reach the back. You try to dodge forwards, he does the same, then again. Your stealth runs out, you cant backstab. You fail to reach the back. You mightve noticed something missing here. The version where you reach his back. Thats because it doesnt exist. No matter what, the backstab will fail.

c) The defender dont know you are there , when you use Steal .He immagine you , you are 1200 range away

No actually he knows you are. Either he is dazed, in which case he knows youre there. Or you get hit by his cleave, in which case he knows youre there. There is no version where he doesnt know youre there.

d)Steal or Shadowstep , he doesnt know you exist or where you are

We're talking about in-combat stealth here, not out of combat stealth. Of course he knows you are there, and he knows your general location. In case of Shadowstep, yeah, you get a backstab, but you had to use Shadowstep. Thats not good for you either.

In WoW and Elder scroll , any damage (even dots) break the stealth

And WoW and Elder Scrolls stealth is a problem. As its out of combat stealth leading to cheesy surprise burst you cant really react to. Its also useless in-combat. Thats not what should be done. In fact, we need to do the

opposite

of WoW and Elder Scrolls. Out of combat stealth should be nerfed, and in-combat stealth

buffed

.

a) You dont have to travel extra distance .....You can stay inside his body , like a half anatomy doll . Behind the eyelobes , half his skull counts as Back-stableYou Steal >He attacks> You dodge > Uncatchable traits activate

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable

> He is slowed >Backstab or Sidestab

You do, your model has to be within a 180° angle behind their model. Within you dont count at all. Also, there are no stealth builds running uncatchable. Hell there are barely

any

thief builds running uncatchable.

b) You dont have to go in the Back ... or use
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Uncatchable
to slow him down

Same answer as above, yes you do, no noone uses uncatchable.

c) The only way he is dazed is you took the trait that Daze and not the Quick Pockets (Gain initiative on swapping weapons while in combat)

.... uh, yeah. People use Sleight of Hand. Noone uses Quick Pockets. Im starting to think you havent even seen anyone play thief.

d) Again we come in rounds : Many games are moving away from GW2 stealth . Even Smite Loki has the same stealth and will be altered to a Outliner -see for some minisec each time he is attacked

No, actually, theyre all moving

towards

GW2 stealth. What people are moving away from is WoW type stealth. Thing is, they dont have things like cleave or on-hit traits to keep track of enemies. As such, they utilise outlines to make up for what GW2 inherently has.

a) There are theif that can always reach their target to do a proper Backstab .But if your problem that you cannot reachyour target , you can use that trait :PThe180 degree character doesnt start outside ... but from his axis that starts in his skull

From in-combat stealth? There arent. Mostly because no thief is going to go for in-combat stealth backstabs. Its a terrible idea. You go stealth up out of combat, try to burst them, and if they live you just disengage.

b) Better ujse, because it seem you have some problem , catching upcharacter that move 50% slower

Funny you think Im the thief and not the opponent. Besides, as I have explained multiple times (and I wont explain one more time), its not about catching up. Its about the fact that the thief will not be able to reach the back without being noticed by cleave, and allowing the enemy to just dodge backwards. Or to put it simple, what stealth does is let your opponent get in free damage while you are unable to fight back. Thats why in-combat stealth is bad, and why you dont use it.

c) Fews answers above you said , that Hartseeker +Black Powder combo comsume , alot ammount of innactiveSo yeah i go in circles too:P

I have no idea what youre trying to say here.

d) All are moving away from GW2 stealthEither they have mobility debufs , or break on damage or get outlines

Nope, towards GW2 stealth.

None

use the first 2 anymore. Thats the WoW method and its

bad

. Like, incredibly bad. Stealth being broken on stealth is incredibly terrible design. The outlines are used sometimes (only sometimes though, plenty of games dont even have them), and as Ive explained, theyre used because the things GW2 inherently has dont work for those games. Or in simpler terms, GW2 effectively has outlines already. Theyre just not outlines per se.

So, just to leave this off once and for all. Out of combat stealth is too good. In combat stealth is too bad. You are trying to leave out of combat stealth alone while nerfing in combat stealth. Thats stupid. The opposite should be done. Nerf out of combat stealth,

buff

in combat stealth.

a) This why we need an outliner -track the thief .If Theif dont kill his target , then the victim have a chance to track him and have a more balanced 1v1 , rather than playing ''guess where the thief will come from''

You can already track the thief. Besides, while the 1v1 isnt balanced, its because the Thief loses that 1v1, especially if he is a stealth build. Your suggestion to nerf it would make it even more unbalanced.

b) Again you can stealth and change directionsThe victim will move towards the direction your heartseeker was aimedYou simply dodge and d o slighty curve toward him and try to hit his sides

You would need to take a massive detour, and your stealth would run out before you could. Its not an option, plain and simple.

c) If you scroll up , in the part when i told you can use Hidden Thief , youtold me that no1 uses that , and most use Hartseeker +Black Powder combo for stealth . And that consume a huge amount of your Thief resources .If you have some many problems you can use Quick Pockets , rather than a silly Daze

That "silly daze" is a very important skill. Besides, youre using shortbow on the other hand. So you cant even use Quick pockets.

d) I am trying to implant our original idea ... an outliner... a ghost .... a blood-red circle on the ground

And Im saying its rather redundant.

I have an interesting suggestion (Change stealth)

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