I'm sorry but how is this acceptable?

[Josiah.2967]

Maybe we are going about this wrong.The super easy highly survivable Guardians need to be nerfed to our level.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:Maybe we are going about this wrong.The super easy highly survivable Guardians need to be nerfed to our level.

Well ... other than jealousy ... why is that a problem? I mean, you have to start with the problem ... necros aren't going to get teams just because Guardians get a nerf, EVEN to necro levels. These are NOT thoughtful suggestions, so they AREN'T going to be taken seriously.

[Josiah.2967]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Maybe we are going about this wrong.The super easy highly survivable Guardians need to be nerfed to our level.

Well ... other than jealousy ... why is that a problem? I mean, you have to start with the problem ... necros aren't going to get teams just because Guardians get a nerf, EVEN to necro levels. These are NOT thoughtful suggestions, so they AREN'T going to be taken seriously.

Same reason it's a problem to buff Necro to their level... I just reversed your logic.

On a positive note. There is a post on reddit that leads us to believe a new Balance patch coming soon! super excited

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Maybe we are going about this wrong.The super easy highly survivable Guardians need to be nerfed to our level.

Well ... other than jealousy ... why is that a problem? I mean, you have to start with the problem ... necros aren't going to get teams just because Guardians get a nerf, EVEN to necro levels. These are NOT thoughtful suggestions, so they AREN'T going to be taken seriously.

Same reason it's a problem to buff Necro to their level... I just reversed your logic.

The reverse of my logic is ... illogical ... so yeah i guess you got me there. :+1:

On a positive note. There is a post on reddit that leads us to believe a new Balance patch coming soon! super excited

Oh I can't wait to see how this works out for everyone ... because we have NEVER seen one of those right?

[Agrippa.1693]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:This push for DPS is the wrong direction; you know it, I know it.

I do, but it doesn't change the fact that the apparent issue of the necromancer is it's dps even if in reality it's caused by it's poor compatibility with the environment and it's low ability to benefit from and to other professions in high end PvE group setting. The suggestions/demands associated to these QQ threads tend to be done within the scope of what the players are used to see ANet do.

Well, the fact is that a significant DPS increase is logically going to fix the issue (being that Necro's don't get groups in PvE endgame content), definitely if it's by that much that the Necro is going to top the charts. So, in a pure factual way, that statement of: "more DPS is not going to fix this", is 100% faulty! It actually will fix it, as long as it's significant enough!The probability that ANet will go that far is a whole other story though! And I also know, I'm somewhat of a lone-wolf in this, but I for one think it's about time after sooooo many years at the absolute bottom, that the Necro is finally going to top the charts in DPS for once!And I also understand the consequences in that: many other class-communities are going to whine!!! But my advice to ANet, just do what you always do to the Necro community: ignore their whining! You can also easily fix this by just making it temporary: Do more significant balance updates, and this would mean every class gets their moment to shine once in a while. (again, I know this is not a popular opinion, just mine)

[Kodama.6453]

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:Well, the fact is that a significant DPS increase is logically going to fix the issue (being that Necro's don't get groups in PvE endgame content), definitely if it's by that much that the Necro is going to top the charts. So, in a pure factual way, that statement of: "more DPS is not going to fix this", is 100% faulty! It actually will fix it, as long as it's significant enough!The probability that ANet will go that far is a whole other story though! And I also know, I'm somewhat of a lone-wolf in this, but I for one think it's about time after sooooo many years at the absolute bottom, that the Necro is finally going to top the charts in DPS for once!And I also understand the consequences in that: many other class-communities are going to whine!!! But my advice to ANet, just do what you always do to the Necro community: ignore their whining! You can also easily fix this by just making it temporary: Do more significant balance updates, and this would mean every class gets their moment to shine once in a while. (again, I know this is not a popular opinion, just mine)

Reaper should not top the dps charts as long as their life force works as a HP pool increase. Why should a profession that has built in defense by getting a huge health pool without having to invest stats in it have better dps than other classes which are slotting nothing but offense for their skills and attributes?

Doesn't make any sense. If they rework reaper that the shroud doesn't extend your health pool anymore, then they can give reaper top damage maybe.

[Josiah.2967]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:Well, the fact is that a significant DPS increase is

logically

going to fix the issue (being that Necro's don't get groups in PvE endgame content), definitely if it's by that much that the Necro is going to top the charts. So, in a pure factual way, that statement of: "more DPS is not going to fix this", is 100% faulty! It actually

will

fix it, as long as it's significant enough!The probability that ANet will go that far is a whole other story though! And I also know, I'm somewhat of a lone-wolf in this, but I for one think it's about time after sooooo many years at the absolute bottom, that the Necro is finally going to top the charts in DPS for once!And I also understand the consequences in that: many other class-communities are going to whine!!! But my advice to ANet, just do what you always do to the Necro community: ignore their whining! You can also easily fix this by just making it temporary: Do more

significant

balance updates, and this would mean every class gets their moment to shine once in a while. (again, I know this is

not

a popular opinion, just mine)

Reaper should not top the dps charts as long as their life force works as a HP pool increase. Why should a profession that has built in defense by getting a huge health pool without having to invest stats in it have better dps than other classes which are slotting nothing but offense for their skills and attributes?

Doesn't make any sense. If they rework reaper that the shroud doesn't extend your health pool anymore, then they can give reaper top damage maybe.

As long as you can't get healed using lifeforce you actually have less survivability than a Guardian. I raid all the time. It is much easier on the Guardian who also puts out more damage. You can not take any damage in shroud form to do 2/3 of what a Guardian can do in a lot if fights. Take any damage in shroud form, and your DPS will drop significantly bellow the 2/3 of what a guardian can do threshold. That is the problem. If you use life force to absorb damage, your numbers will drop, and you are useless.

A buff to shroud damage would make the distinction more noticeable. The bad players would continue to do subpar damage, but the players that master the class could compete.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:Reaper should not top the dps charts as long as their life force works as a HP pool increase. Why should a profession that has built in defense by getting a huge health pool without having to invest stats in it have better dps than other classes which are slotting nothing but offense for their skills and attributes?

Doesn't make any sense. If they rework reaper that the shroud doesn't extend your health pool anymore, then they can give reaper top damage maybe.

As long as you can't get healed using lifeforce you actually have less survivability than a Guardian. I raid all the time. It is much easier on the Guardian who also puts out more damage. You can not take any damage in shroud form to do 2/3 of what a Guardian can do in a lot if fights. Take any damage in shroud form, and your DPS will drop significantly bellow the 2/3 of what a guardian can do threshold. That is the problem. If you use life force to absorb damage, your numbers will drop, and you are useless.

A buff to shroud damage would make the distinction more noticeable. The bad players would continue to do subpar damage, but the players that master the class could compete.

This kind of reasoning is exactly why people believe that the necromancer is an easy profession for beginner. Look, you're litteraly telling us that they should put the increase of damage on a stance that make use of 5 skills (AA included). That's plain ridiculous.

Fact is that the necromancer's DPS potential is tied to a 50% shroud uptime which is already extremly easy to maintain even if you take damage. If they put more damage into the shroud, you'll still look for the exact same 50% shroud uptime which will still be easy to maintain. The only thing of notice with your suggestion is that you'll have a relative increase of dps for both "bad" and "good" players. Will this make things better? Nope.

[Josiah.2967]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:Reaper should not top the dps charts as long as their life force works as a HP pool increase. Why should a profession that has built in defense by getting a huge health pool without having to invest stats in it have better dps than other classes which are slotting nothing but offense for their skills and attributes?

Doesn't make any sense. If they rework reaper that the shroud doesn't extend your health pool anymore, then they can give reaper top damage maybe.

As long as you can't get healed using lifeforce you actually have less survivability than a Guardian. I raid all the time. It is much easier on the Guardian who also puts out more damage. You can not take any damage in shroud form to do 2/3 of what a Guardian can do in a lot if fights. Take any damage in shroud form, and your DPS will drop significantly bellow the 2/3 of what a guardian can do threshold. That is the problem. If you use life force to absorb damage, your numbers will drop, and you are useless.

A buff to shroud damage would make the distinction more noticeable. The bad players would continue to do subpar damage, but the players that master the class could compete.

This kind of reasoning is exactly why people believe that the necromancer is an easy profession for beginner. Look, you're litteraly telling us that they should put the increase of damage on a stance that make use of 5 skills (AA included). That's plain ridiculous.

Fact is that the necromancer's DPS potential is tied to a 50% shroud uptime which is already extremly easy to maintain even if you take damage. If they put more damage into the shroud, you'll still look for the exact same 50% shroud uptime which will still be easy to maintain. The only thing of notice with your suggestion is that you'll have a relative increase of dps for both "bad" and "good" players. Will this make things better? Nope.

This is the definition of a moving goal post. By all means....keep preaching that Guardians deserve their super easy high-end dps with better survivability in raids.

Any DPS increase will make things better. When stats were taken...poor Reapers were doing worse than poor Guardians. The easy class should never perform worse for the poor players, but that's where we are.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:

This kind of reasoning is exactly why people believe that the necromancer is an easy profession for beginner. Look, you're litteraly telling us that they should put the increase of damage on a stance that make use of 5 skills (AA included). That's plain ridiculous.

Fact is that the necromancer's DPS potential is tied to a 50% shroud uptime which is already extremly easy to maintain even if you take damage. If they put more damage into the shroud, you'll still look for the exact same 50% shroud uptime which will still be easy to maintain. The only thing of notice with your suggestion is that you'll have a relative increase of dps for both "bad" and "good" players. Will this make things better? Nope.

This is the definition of a moving goal post. By all means....keep preaching that Guardians deserve their super easy high-end dps with better survivability in raids.

Any DPS increase will make things better. When stats were taken...poor Reapers were doing worse than poor Guardians. The easy class should never perform worse for the poor players, but that's where we are.

First I don't preach anything. Second, it's a fact that guardian have just as much realistic dps potential than necromancer. Guardian's is tied to aegis, necromancer's is tied to fear (and both are unrealistic to keep up). The difference between the 2 is that the guardian blend well with other professions and the PvE end game content while the necromancer don't.

I'll say it again, even main-hand dagger auto would end up having competitive damage with 600 extra ferocity, 33% extra crit chance and perma quickness. In fact GS damage might end up pushing the necromancer in a relatively confortable spot in term of dps if it had this.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:Any DPS increase will make things better.

Except it doesn't ... in fact, in the long term, it never has. Necro has received numerous DPS increases over the last 8 years ... are you better off like think you would be? No you aren't. Necro is in EXACTLY the same place it's always been. If you are honestly wanting to fix PUG teaming, you will listen to what Dadnir is telling you, because he gets it.

At this point, I can only believe that anyone pushing this mentality has zero care for Necro getting a skillset useful to PUG meta teams ... they are just using the situation to push for DPS. It's a ruse and it's a bad one because people are on to it. Sounds to me like you are on more of a crusade to nerf Guardians than get the things Necro needs to be useful in teams because nerfing Guardians does NOT help Necros; there is absolutely NO relationship between Necros not getting teams because of Guardians. It's a ridiculous approach and a nonsensical line of thought. Displays of envy will not be a compelling reason for Anet to change Necros.

[Josiah.2967]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Any DPS increase will make things better.

there is absolutely NO relationship between Necros not getting teams because of Guardians.

Meanwhile in the game. Hey Josiah, would you mind switching to your Guardian so we can bypass the mechanic. Josiah is the only Necro we will allow in our raid group.

This just happened when I joined a friend for a pug. They had two DPS slots open. Four necro's and 2 guardians wanted to join the raid. Immediately you heard, that's easy just pick the guardians and lets go.

What does a relationship mean to you?

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Second, it's a fact that guardian have just as much realistic dps potential than necromancer.

Do you intentionally go out of your way to ignore publicly posted benchmarks or logs for actual encounters?

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Any DPS increase will make things better.

there is absolutely NO relationship between Necros not getting teams because of Guardians.

Meanwhile in the game.

That doesn't change anything I said ... you even say yourself they want your Guardian to bypass the mechanic. So ... what does that have to do with necro getting more DPS? You DON'T think your team wants to bypass the mechanic? Additional DPS on a necro will be more valuable to them than bypassing that mechanic? That's nonsense ... but that's what you think. You obviously need to go back and put a little more thought into what you say here before you post it.

[Josiah.2967]

How do you hide someones posts on the form? I need to stop responding to a certain guardian player so we can stay on topic.

Thank you in advance.

I am happy the benchmarks and logs show what we are saying. I like that others research the game enough to know what is frowned on. I value the top tier gaming community that knows what is not effecient. I love having the data. It is time for the developers to eqaulize the playing field.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:How do you hide someones posts on the form? I need to stop responding to a certain guardian player so we can stay on topic.

There isn't one ... and if you don't want to respond to my posts, then don't ... and for the record, the posts I made are just as on topic as anyone elses' including yours.

I am happy the benchmarks and logs show what we are saying. I like that others research the game enough to know what is frowned on. I value the top tier gaming community that knows what is not effecient. I love having the data. It is time for the developers to eqaulize the playing field.

Those things have never been hiding so clearly their existence for the last 8 years while useful doesn't compel Anet to change necro. The part I like about the benchmarks, etc ... is that it shows people can be successful as a necro even if it's not meta ... it proves nothing stops people from playing classes they want how they want.

[Anchoku.8142]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Any DPS increase will make things better.

Except it doesn't ... in fact, in the long term, it

never

has. Necro has received numerous DPS increases over the last 8 years ... are you better off like think you would be?Necro is in a much better place than in 2012. Dps for high-damage builds is not nearly as bad as it was. Barrier support is also a huge improvement that gives squads, especially PUGs, a valuable sustain option. Splits between competitive and PvE modes mean Arenanet has finally acknowledged the three modes are different.

Necromancer's position amongst professions has drastically improved. It can improve more but I no longer feel ashamed of playing it like I did I 2013. That was truly embarrassing. The players who used Necro for anything more than a pack mule, craft mule, or afk farmer were hopelessly stupid or stubborn. Necro's elites are legitimate. They may not be balanced well enough because of core Necro but they are not non-competitive the way Necro was in 2012-2013.

[Obtena.7952]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Any DPS increase will make things better.

Except it doesn't ... in fact, in the long term, it

never

has. Necro has received numerous DPS increases over the last 8 years ... are you better off like think you would be?Necro is in a much better place than in 2012. Dps for high-damage builds is not nearly as bad as it was. Barrier support is also a huge improvement that gives squads, especially PUGs, a valuable sustain option. Splits between competitive and PvE modes mean Arenanet has finally acknowledged the three modes are different.

Necromancer's position amongst professions has drastically improved. It can improve more but I no longer feel ashamed of playing it like I did I 2013. That was truly embarrassing. The players who used Necro for anything more than a pack mule, craft mule, or afk farmer were hopelessly stupid or stubborn. Necro's elites are legitimate. They may not be balanced well enough because of core Necro but they are not non-competitive the way Necro was in 2012-2013.

Right ... that's all true ... yet here we are ... so how does anyone conclude DPS is a long term solution to making a class meta? It CAN'T be. Necro DPS would have to be absolutely broken for any PUG meta team to want it. Why does anyone think there is a path to that happening?

[Nimon.7840]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:Well, the fact is that a significant DPS increase is

logically

going to fix the issue (being that Necro's don't get groups in PvE endgame content), definitely if it's by that much that the Necro is going to top the charts. So, in a pure factual way, that statement of: "more DPS is not going to fix this", is 100% faulty! It actually

will

fix it, as long as it's significant enough!The probability that ANet will go that far is a whole other story though! And I also know, I'm somewhat of a lone-wolf in this, but I for one think it's about time after sooooo many years at the absolute bottom, that the Necro is finally going to top the charts in DPS for once!And I also understand the consequences in that: many other class-communities are going to whine!!! But my advice to ANet, just do what you always do to the Necro community: ignore their whining! You can also easily fix this by just making it temporary: Do more

significant

balance updates, and this would mean every class gets their moment to shine once in a while. (again, I know this is

not

a popular opinion, just mine)

Reaper should not top the dps charts as long as their life force works as a HP pool increase. Why should a profession that has built in defense by getting a huge health pool without having to invest stats in it have better dps than other classes which are slotting nothing but offense for their skills and attributes?

Sorry but what makes you think that a "second health pool" is good to have in endgame content?Did you ever play reaper in raids?

The first minor thing: shroud locks you out of healing, which can be extremely annoying for your healer.Second: right now shroud is your best offensive tool and you don't want to take damage while in it because that shortens the duration shroud can be used.Third point: what about guards or engis or soulbeast then?Guards can give the whole party blocks, and can even emergency heal the party a bit. Also can give stability of you give up a small amount of dps.And if you're playing the dragonhunter meta build you can make yourself basically immune to damage for 6 seconds with the heal skill and on firebrand, another top meta class completely immune to damage for 3 seconds with the elite.

Holo can basically ignore lethal blows with aed. Which is extremely useful at the air boss in w7. It lets you completely ignore mechanics.

And soulbeast just has to change one trait for basically permanent every boon.

I don't know, but I don't think that having "a second healthbar" is as op as it sounds, when other classes basically have the exact same thing, while some are even able to add survivability to the whole group.

Doesn't make any sense. If they rework reaper that the shroud doesn't extend your health pool anymore, then they can give reaper top damage maybe.

Yes some people suggested this including me.But that wouldn't just need a small rework by just loosing shroud.They would need to add a lot of defensive mechanics to already existing skills, else reaper would be completely useless in PvP modes. Not just trash tier, even lower (maybe not if you have a guardian in your pocket)You would only have 19k hp with two dodges and that's it.While other classes have insane healing abilities or damage negating abilities.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:Well, the fact is that a significant DPS increase is

logically

going to fix the issue (being that Necro's don't get groups in PvE endgame content), definitely if it's by that much that the Necro is going to top the charts. So, in a pure factual way, that statement of: "more DPS is not going to fix this", is 100% faulty! It actually

will

fix it, as long as it's significant enough!The probability that ANet will go that far is a whole other story though! And I also know, I'm somewhat of a lone-wolf in this, but I for one think it's about time after sooooo many years at the absolute bottom, that the Necro is finally going to top the charts in DPS for once!And I also understand the consequences in that: many other class-communities are going to whine!!! But my advice to ANet, just do what you always do to the Necro community: ignore their whining! You can also easily fix this by just making it temporary: Do more

significant

balance updates, and this would mean every class gets their moment to shine once in a while. (again, I know this is

not

a popular opinion, just mine)

Reaper should not top the dps charts as long as their life force works as a HP pool increase. Why should a profession that has built in defense by getting a huge health pool without having to invest stats in it have better dps than other classes which are slotting nothing but offense for their skills and attributes?

Sorry but what makes you think that a "second health pool" is good to have in endgame content?Did you ever play reaper in raids?

The first minor thing: shroud locks you out of healing, which can be extremely annoying for your healer.Second: right now shroud is your best offensive tool and you don't want to take damage while in it because that shortens the duration shroud can be used.Third point: what about guards or engis or soulbeast then?Guards can give the whole party blocks, and can even emergency heal the party a bit. Also can give stability of you give up a small amount of dps.And if you're playing the dragonhunter meta build you can make yourself basically immune to damage for 6 seconds with the heal skill and on firebrand, another top meta class completely immune to damage for 3 seconds with the elite.

Holo can basically ignore lethal blows with aed. Which is extremely useful at the air boss in w7. It lets you completely ignore mechanics.

And soulbeast just has to change one trait for basically permanent every boon.

I don't know, but I don't think that having "a second healthbar" is as op as it sounds, when other classes basically have the exact same thing, while some are even able to add survivability to the whole group.

Doesn't make any sense. If they rework reaper that the shroud doesn't extend your health pool anymore, then they can give reaper top damage maybe.

Yes some people suggested this including me.But that wouldn't just need a small rework by just loosing shroud.They would need to add a lot of defensive mechanics to already existing skills, else reaper would be completely useless in PvP modes. Not just trash tier, even lower (maybe not if you have a guardian in your pocket)You would only have 19k hp with two dodges and that's it.While other classes have insane healing abilities or damage negating abilities.

This!And again, like it has been said multiple times, add the fact that shroud is either used offensively OR defensively (in the PvE endgame). You can't have both! So, @Kodama.6453 it might not be slotting offensive or defensive skills/traits etc. but it's virtually the same. You want to go defensive: sure, use your shroud as a sponge. But your DPS will go down (at least in the PvE endgame it will) over the course of the fight! And with a DPS cap that is already FAR below (read: 20%) EVERY single other class out there, you don't want to go down on that. Cause that's the only thing a Reaper brings to the PvE endgame ... it's not like they stick 2 poles in the ground and at least are good for something, or cast a spirit increasing party damage or are useful in some general boon support.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Do you intentionally go out of your way to ignore publicly posted benchmarks or logs for actual encounters?

There is no "public benchmark" of a necromancer build making use of Dread, however the "public benchmark" of the guardian make use of Unscathed contender.Help yourself, set the golem with perma fear, take dread and enjoy 35-36k DPS, you'll have a benchmark under the same condition than the guardian's benchmark. That's basically why the pleas for more dps on necromancer purely based on "number" are meaningless. The numbers are there, unachievable but they are there.

A guardian work better within a group and is less hindered by the environment, that's all there is to it's "superiority" in PvE end game. The necromancer is to self sufficient in PvE end game, which allow him to largely disregard it's teammates while the environment itself impact negatively it's greatest strengths.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Nimon.7840" said:

Doesn't make any sense. If they rework reaper that the shroud doesn't extend your health pool anymore, then they can give reaper top damage maybe.

Yes some people suggested this including me.But that wouldn't just need a small rework by just loosing shroud.They would need to add a lot of defensive mechanics to already existing skills, else reaper would be completely useless in PvP modes. Not just trash tier, even lower (maybe not if you have a guardian in your pocket)You would only have 19k hp with two dodges and that's it.While other classes have insane healing abilities or damage negating abilities.

And these classes doesn't rely heavily on their healing and damage negating skills within their dps rotation, which is the point of contention when it come to the necromancer (not the potency of the healing or damage mitigation).

The point is not to "lose" the shroud, the point is to "restrict" the range of thing the shroud does. And since you can't get rid of the defensive aspect of the shroud unless you add load of defensive mechanisms, the logical thing is to move the damage out of it. Balance should dictate that the more time you spend in shroud the less dps you deal because want it or not shroud is the main defensive mechanism of the necromancer.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Fact is that the necromancer's DPS potential is tied to a 50% shroud uptime which is already extremly easy to maintain even if you take damage.

I don't disagree a lot with you Dadnir, but here I definitely do. Sure, it's true when you do open world, or killing trash mobs in fractals, but if you take damage in end-fights in say: raids or T4 CM's, mostly the damage you take is significant. This will lower your in-shroud time, which is a major hit in your DPS. And technically, even the other way as well, taking damage while out of shroud, having to delay your shroud entrance (because of Scholar Runes and not being able to be healed in shroud) is also a DPS loss, especially when you're in Axe!!!

Actually, your best defence against this, is positioning and knowing mechanics (and not being too tired after a long day/night of work :) ), of course. But that's a general fact for every profession, not just for the Reaper! Eating damage is just always a bad idea in the PvE endgame, as well as for the Reaper as for every other class. Blocks, Invulns and evades are the real tools that get you somewhere in this PvE endgame. But ... IF anyone really wants to play an absorb sponge, I'd really suggest the Warrior above anything else! Next to the fact that they deal far more damage than a Necro (even while going support), they have one of the most easiest rotations (if not THE easiest), can bring a LOT of CC, can bring very valuable offensive team support and have the highest innate health and armor rating!!! They literally outclass the Reaper in EVERYTHING, I wouldn't even be surprised if they outclass Reaper in boon hate if you spec for it (Spellbreaker).And warrior is just one example. All classes outclass Reaper in the PvE endgame. You just have to ask yourself what your favourite playstyle is, and we can come up with a best class for you, one thing is for certain though, Reaper will not be in there!If it comes to the PvE endgame, the only reason any player logically chooses to play Reaper is because their Reaper either looks cool, or they just don't know the other classes well enough and what they are capable of!

[Nimon.7840]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:

Doesn't make any sense. If they rework reaper that the shroud doesn't extend your health pool anymore, then they can give reaper top damage maybe.

Yes some people suggested this including me.But that wouldn't just need a small rework by just loosing shroud.They would need to add a lot of defensive mechanics to already existing skills, else reaper would be completely useless in PvP modes. Not just trash tier, even lower (maybe not if you have a guardian in your pocket)You would only have 19k hp with two dodges and that's it.While other classes have insane healing abilities or damage negating abilities.

And these classes doesn't rely heavily on their healing and damage negating skills within their dps rotation, which is the point of contention when it come to the necromancer (not the potency of the healing or damage mitigation).

The point is not to "lose" the shroud, the point is to "restrict" the range of thing the shroud does. And since you can't get rid of the defensive aspect of the shroud unless you add load of defensive mechanisms, the logical thing is to move the damage out of it. Balance should dictate that the more time you spend in shroud the less dps you deal because want it or not shroud is the main defensive mechanism of the necromancer.

I kinda agree with that.But shroud is also the only defensive mechanism on necro.

You don't have a heal skill that blocks all incoming damage or even saves you from deathYou don't have any skills with evade or blockframesYou don't have invincibilities.

The problem is exactly what you describe, but it's not only necro that uses "defensive mechanics/skills" to get higher dps. There's other classes that do exactly the same.

And redirecting dps wouldn't help I think. That would make the "problem" worse in my opinionIf you remove most dmg from shroud, so you don't have to use it anymore for max dps, it's exactly what you don't want it to be: a second health bar.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Do you intentionally go out of your way to ignore publicly posted benchmarks or logs for actual encounters?

There is no "public benchmark" of a necromancer build making use of

Dread

, however the "public benchmark" of the guardian make use of

Unscathed contender

.Help yourself, set the golem with perma fear, take

dread

and enjoy 35-36k DPS, you'll have a benchmark under the same condition than the guardian's benchmark. That's basically why the pleas for more dps on necromancer purely based on "number" are meaningless. The numbers are there, unachievable but they are there.

A guardian work better within a group and is less hindered by the environment, that's all there is to it's "superiority" in PvE end game. The necromancer is to self sufficient in PvE end game, which allow him to largely disregard it's teammates while the environment itself impact negatively it's greatest strengths.

Well, Dread is indeed interesting, but imo still miles away from comparing it with Unscathed Contender.

• First of all, what you already mentioned Guardian brings Unscathed Contender ... The fact that it's a Guardian trait makes it by itself already far more interesting. Guardians are just more useful to a group, than a Necro.
• Secondly, it will still potentially be 3k to 4k more dps. Which is about 10% difference ... still! That's still a lot.
• Aegis is far easier to maintain than Fear. See my last post, where avoiding damage is always a good idea, and the more you know about mechanics, positioning, telegraphed attacks, evades, invulns, etc. the easier this gets. I.e. maintaining your Aegis.
• Maintaining 100% Aegis by yourself is possible, hard, but possible. Maintaining 100% Fear by yourself is literally impossible.
• Not just by yourself btw, you need a LOT more Necro's to get near 100% Fear uptime, whereas 1 more Guardian already makes the probability of near 100% Aegis uptime quite a bit higher, but theoretically you don't need more of them.
• A Guardian can tweak its build a bit without incredible DPS loss and having more sources of Aegis available. The Necro simply can't. There are simply not enough Fear sources available.
• A guardian can more easily: instantly pop Aegis before hitting with the big damage dealing skills. The Necro has cast times with their Fear applying skills, and again, less sources available.

All and all, I'd say, you cannot really compare those 2!

[Anchoku.8142]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Josiah.2967" said:Any DPS increase will make things better.

Except it doesn't ... in fact, in the long term, it

never

has. Necro has received numerous DPS increases over the last 8 years ... are you better off like think you would be?Necro is in a much better place than in 2012. Dps for high-damage builds is not nearly as bad as it was. Barrier support is also a huge improvement that gives squads, especially PUGs, a valuable sustain option. Splits between competitive and PvE modes mean Arenanet has finally acknowledged the three modes are different.

Necromancer's position amongst professions has drastically improved. It can improve more but I no longer feel ashamed of playing it like I did I 2013. That was truly embarrassing. The players who used Necro for anything more than a pack mule, craft mule, or afk farmer were hopelessly stupid or stubborn. Necro's elites are legitimate. They may not be balanced well enough because of core Necro but they are not non-competitive the way Necro was in 2012-2013.

Right ... that's all true ... yet here we are ... so how does anyone conclude DPS is a long term solution to making a class meta? It CAN'T be. Necro DPS would have to be absolutely broken for any PUG meta team to want it. Why does anyone think there is a path to that happening?

Dps can be increased using modifiers, adjusting scaling factors, or sacrificing something else. Reaper pays with shroud degeneration, though core is so bad in PvE that the cost for cleave was tiny. Scourge is similar in that it's "cost" in personal shroud sustain to gain a powerful hard-carry mechanic is not terribly large. Even Death Shoud itself has repeatedly been boosted in damage, utility and sustain.

There are things Arenanet can do to inch the profession closer to, if not top dps or top utility, somewhere nearer average in group PvE. In the almost-eight years Necromancer has been improved a lot. Arenanet's design "policy" for Necro changed a lot after the first few miserable years when "we feel Necromancer is in a good place" had become a meme for Arenanet stubbornness.

PvE (Defiance) is a different animal compared to WvW (stacking AoE) and PvP. I think they get that now and understand balancing must be done separately. Necro is better off than I expected given how long it took Arenanet to admit Indomitable / Unshakable broke the profession in PvE.