Do You Find The Game More Fun To Play Now Or Before Revamp

[Lighter.5631]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:LOL dude, then tell me in which context telegraphed skills should not have big effect? im so eager to see whatever BS context you about to make upLOL dude, when you have more telegraphed skills than opponent have counter, when you have unblocage thing to land them, when you can reduce the telegraph with quickness/melee, when you have plethora os sustain, should I continue or you can't get something this simple ?

You are so out of your mind, what's the point if half of the telegraphed skills don't do anything? so you can face roll them? bruh, how biased you can be.side noders are supposed to be oppressive against classes with high blink/disengage capability.when you can literally avoid an entire rampage by a single vertical staff 2 and you talking fairness to me?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Sazukikrah.5036" said:oh and please don't forgetWho is leaving Anet next? The company is too incompetent.

we all got pranked

[mortrialus.3062]

@viquing.8254 said:LOL dude, when you have more telegraphed skills than opponent have counter, when you have unblocage thing to land them, when you can reduce the telegraph with quickness/melee, when you have plethora os sustain, should I continue or you can't get something this simple ?

Unless it's dedicated support vs. dedicated support every build should have more offensive skills that will eventually overwhelm the target's defenses and sustain should the target fail to avoid them.

And it isn't just a matter of which active defenses you have. You also have basic game capacity to kite and line of sight out of dangerous skills. In fact, builds having more than enough defensive skills whether it's evades, blocks, cleanses, stealth, mobility, alongside healing to avoid and survive every attack launched at them is eons more toxic than a faster paced more deadly meta.

To keep going with my street fight analogy, Zangief has a higher health value than Ryu and can survive more attacks. But he isn't effectively unkillable and repeatedly popping back to full health faster than you can damage him.

[viquing.8254]

@UNOwen.7132 :We clearly don't play the same game.Just get in mind that there are people who enjoy more the game post patch and it's not because 3 people spam the opposite on forum that it will change this.

@mortrialus.3062 :Appart that in SF everyone can time block or counter, Ryu can't block only 4 Zangief attacks then having to run away.What bother me the most is that when reading this forum you seems to live in a unkilable meta world where nobody can die while in every game I play everyone die, even if they all go tank, they will go outrotate and die.So no it's not full of unkilable things in my games.

[witcher.3197]

I don't enjoy either. Before the patch the powercreep was a horrible and desperately needed to be tuned back, so the patch was necessary.

But there were so many changes that are just meme tier, like the 0.06% scaling on CC skills. A skill you have to channel for 2 seconds and has an obvious animation with a long CD or high energy cost SHOULDN'T hit for 8 damage.. sure it shouldn't do massive burst, but 1/100 of an auto attack? That has to be a joke. And they just blanketnerfed every single CC like that, there was 0 thought going into how to approach individual skills.

CC was and still is out of control. It's not the damage on CC skills that had to be tuned down but the prevalence of CC effects in general.

Some skills just feel straightup terrible to use. Take rev staff 5. Over the years it already had its damage gutted, now they gutted it even further, and even slapped a warmup time before the skill goes off. It's a CC you can't use to pressure targets with or use reactively. It's just an evade frame now.. Either add the damage back or remove the windup time before it goes off, doing both is idiotic.

[viquing.8254]

@witcher.3197 said:Some skills just feel straightup terrible to use. Take rev staff 5. Over the years it already had its damage gutted, now they gutted it even further, and even slapped a warmup time before the skill goes off. It's a CC you can't use to pressure targets with or use reactively. It's just an evade frame now.. Either add the damage back or remove the windup time before it goes off, doing both is idiotic.

You get it, it was long time ago a 3 in 1 skill : hudge damage + CC + evade now it's only an evade skill, what's the problem with this ? (and It can always rupt things.)

[mortrialus.3062]

@viquing.8254 said:@UNOwen.7132 :We clearly don't play the same game.Just get in mind that there are people who enjoy more the game post patch and it's not because 3 people spam the opposite on forum that it will change this.

@mortrialus.3062 :Appart that in SF everyone can time block or counter Ryu can't block only Zangief attacks then having to run away.What bother me the most is that when reading this forum you seems to live in a unkilable meta world where nobody can die while in every game I play everyone die, even if they all go tank, they will go outrotate and die.So no it's not full of unkilable things in my games.

Lol I MEAN

For starters Zangief is a grappler. His main combat style is all about using literally unlockable throws as his best source of damage. Even with blocking you still take damage, and positioning so you aren't vulnerable to attacks is a huge part of the game, called footsies. There's even the zoner archetype that's all about ranging opponents from a distance and when they are in close range it's primarily in very short bursts before trying to get range again.

Maybe unkillable bunker meta is a misnomer. But when I can land every part of a 20 second primary DPS cooldown against a target on a Berserker's amulet and their health bar barely moves and they're back up to full health because of their passive healing without even using their healing skill something is fundamentally wrong with the damage numbers. That's what I mean. Slushy. Unimpactful. Slow.

[viquing.8254]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@UNOwen.7132 :We clearly don't play the same game.Just get in mind that there are people who enjoy more the game post patch and it's not because 3 people spam the opposite on forum that it will change this.

@mortrialus.3062 :Appart that in SF everyone can time block or counter Ryu can't block only Zangief attacks then having to run away.What bother me the most is that when reading this forum you seems to live in a unkilable meta world where nobody can die while in every game I play everyone die, even if they all go tank, they will go outrotate and die.So no it's not full of unkilable things in my games.

Lol I MEAN

For starters Zangief is a grappler. His main combat style is all about using literally unlockable throws as his best source of damage. Even with blocking you still take damage, and positioning so you aren't vulnerable to attacks is a huge part of the game, called footsies. There's even the zoner archetype that's all about ranging opponents from a distance and when they are in close range it's primarily in very short bursts before trying to get range again.Yeah it wasn't the best example but you get the point no ? Imagine you can counter his attacks only 4 times.Maybe unkillable bunker meta is a misnomer. But when I can land every part of a 20 second primary DPS cooldown against a target on a Berserker's amulet and their health bar barely moves and they're back up to full health because of their passive healing without even using their healing skill something is fundamentally wrong with the damage numbers. That's what I mean. Slushy. Unimpactful. Slow.Again I don't see that, they usually lose 50% when I burst, than with normal pressure and second burst they are in very bad position.

[witcher.3197]

@viquing.8254 said:

@witcher.3197 said:Some skills just feel straightup terrible to use. Take rev staff 5. Over the years it already had its damage gutted, now they gutted it even further, and even slapped a warmup time before the skill goes off. It's a CC you can't use to pressure targets with or use reactively. It's just an evade frame now.. Either add the damage back or remove the windup time before it goes off, doing both is idiotic.

You get it, it was long time ago a 3 in 1 skill : hudge damage + CC + evade now it's only an evade skill, what's the problem with this ? (and It can always rupt things.)

The first iteration was OP but that skill was already heavily nerfed ages ago. It was completely fine. And now they made the CC WORSE and even tok away any damage it still had. It feels so bad to use.

Either remove the windup time and let us use it as a proper CC, or keep it and add the damage back. Right now it's a bad joke.

Why even have a skill that does 3 things when 2 of those have been nerfed into the ground so it basically only does 1 thing? It's not like skills in GW2 only do one thing, most tooltips are walls of text. By that logic hey, let's remove both clones and the evade frame from mesmer scepter 2, a block should be enough right?

[viquing.8254]

@witcher.3197 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@witcher.3197 said:Some skills just feel straightup terrible to use. Take rev staff 5. Over the years it already had its damage gutted, now they gutted it even further, and even slapped a warmup time before the skill goes off. It's a CC you can't use to pressure targets with or use reactively. It's just an evade frame now.. Either add the damage back or remove the windup time before it goes off, doing both is idiotic.

You get it, it was long time ago a 3 in 1 skill : hudge damage + CC + evade now it's only an evade skill, what's the problem with this ? (and It can always rupt things.)

The first iteration was OP but that skill was already heavily nerfed ages ago. It was

completely fine

. And now they made the CC WORSE and even tok away any damage it still had. It feels so bad to use.

Either remove the windup time and let us use it as a proper CC, or keep it and add the damage back. Right now it's a bad joke.

Why even have a skill that does 3 things when 2 of those have been nerfed into the ground so it basically only does 1 thing? It's not like skills in GW2 only do one thing, most tooltips are walls of text. By that logic hey, let's remove both clones and the evade frame from mesmer scepter 2, a block should be enough right?

Just to make it clear :

• Staff 5 has mobility tied in it, not scepter.
• Staff is multitarget CC, not scepter.
• Staff has evade, scepter has block. And yes scepter is a block, you cast unblocable on it, it fail miserably. The evade part is just because the after cast block was a big issue, it's a bugfix not a feature. Saying scepter 2 is an evade is a big mistake.
• Staff is multi attack (go trough aegis and single block.), scepter is single attack.
• If it wasn't for the condi and CD, 5 staff is was better and way more impactful in fight than a single target block.
• Clone is a class mechanic, it's like asking for staff 5 cost 50 energy.

You should better argue that they remove condi part on scepter 2 and make it a real evade if you get the logic.

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:@UNOwen.7132 :We clearly don't play the same game.Just get in mind that there are people who enjoy more the game post patch and it's not because 3 people spam the opposite on forum that it will change this.

So it would seem. I, like many others here, play GW2. Im not sure what youre playing, but its certainly not GW2.

@mortrialus.3062 :Appart that in SF everyone can time block or counter, Ryu can't block only 4 Zangief attacks then having to run away.

You cant actually block everything Zangief does, his highest damage move is a command grab that you can only avoid by jumping out, which Zangief can punish. Plus, sure you can block everything, but you still take chip damage, and you cant kill the enemy if you just block.

What bother me the most is that when reading this forum you seems to live in a unkilable meta world where nobody can die while in every game I play everyone die, even if they all go tank, they will go outrotate and die.

People die only if they get outnumbered. But thats boring. It means you can make mistakes and not die, and the only time you die is if the enemy literally has more players in the fight. There is no skill involved in that. No challenge. Its boring.

So no it's not full of unkilable things in my games.

Unkillable in fair fights. Which is the problem.

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@UNOwen.7132 :We clearly don't play the same game.Just get in mind that there are people who enjoy more the game post patch and it's not because 3 people spam the opposite on forum that it will change this.

@mortrialus.3062 :Appart that in SF everyone can time block or counter Ryu can't block only Zangief attacks then having to run away.What bother me the most is that when reading this forum you seems to live in a unkilable meta world where nobody can die while in every game I play everyone die, even if they all go tank, they will go outrotate and die.So no it's not full of unkilable things in my games.

Lol I MEAN

For starters Zangief is a grappler. His main combat style is all about using literally unlockable throws as his best source of damage. Even with blocking you still take damage, and positioning so you aren't vulnerable to attacks is a huge part of the game, called footsies. There's even the zoner archetype that's all about ranging opponents from a distance and when they are in close range it's primarily in very short bursts before trying to get range again.Yeah it wasn't the best example but you get the point no ? Imagine you can counter his attacks only 4 times.

The "point" fails because Zangiefs attacks also arent gated by a cooldown. Imagine if he could heavy kick only once every 8 seconds. Thats why the analogy breaks apart entirely.

Maybe unkillable bunker meta is a misnomer. But when I can land every part of a 20 second primary DPS cooldown against a target on a Berserker's amulet and their health bar barely moves and they're back up to full health because of their passive healing without even using their healing skill something is fundamentally wrong with the damage numbers. That's what I mean. Slushy. Unimpactful. Slow.Again I don't see that, they usually lose 50% when I burst, than with normal pressure and second burst they are in very bad position.

Then youre not playing GW2, Im afraid. I play Core Grenade Engineer, which is, funny enough, one of the highest damage bursters left, and hitting someone for 50% happens almost never, and the few builds that take that much damage just gain it all back anyway.

[Lighter.5631]

you guys are clearly getting brought down by @"viquing.8254" and followed his flow of non sense,he's literally saying big effect telegraphed melee skill is bad, but being able to kill people with instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled.

[viquing.8254]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:The "point" fails because Zangiefs attacks also arent gated by a cooldown. Imagine if he could heavy kick only once every 8 seconds. Thats why the analogy breaks apart entirely.Yeah you didn't understand a things about this comparison (Even I already admit she was not accurate in this case, thanks to read before posting.) :If a guys has 2 times more atomic attacks than you can counter it, even if they are telegraphed you still lose.Then youre not playing GW2, Im afraid. I play Core Grenade Engineer, which is, funny enough, one of the highest damage bursters left, and hitting someone for 50% happens almost never, and the few builds that take that much damage just gain it all back anyway.Or you aren't playing GW2.Mean it's lovely how you are presuaded to know the game while you clearly extrapolate things.Thanks also M. ego to decide if I play or not. Let me write it one more time : I play the game and I don't meet tank everywhere.

@"Lighter.5631" said:he's literally saying big effect telegraphed melee skill is bad, but being able to kill people with instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled.When there is many of them + other parallel mecanics yeah, If you can't get it : 1 +1 = 2 => child level.And also where did I write that "instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled. " ?If you thinks 2 seconds that I will go out of this thread with this level of argumentation, you will have to wake up.

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:The "point" fails because Zangiefs attacks also arent gated by a cooldown. Imagine if he could heavy kick only once every 8 seconds. Thats why the analogy breaks apart entirely.Yeah you didn't understand a things about this comparison :If a guys has 2 times more atomic attacks than you can counter it, even if they are telegraphed you still lose.

The part you dont seem to understand is that A, youre not supposed ot be able to avoid 100% of the damage and B, you are also doing damage to them. Youre not sitting there taking it all. They cant just throw out all their attacks in a row because if they do, you stop them and kill them on the crackback. Its a nice back and forth. Unlike now.

Then youre not playing GW2, Im afraid. I play Core Grenade Engineer, which is, funny enough, one of the highest damage bursters left, and hitting someone for 50% happens almost never, and the few builds that take that much damage just gain it all back anyway.Or you aren't playing GW2.

No, I am.

Mean it's lovely how you are presuaded to know the game while you clearly extrapolate things.

I dont extrapolate anything.

Thanks also M. ego to decide if I play or not. Let me write it one more time : I play the game and I don't meet tank everywhere.

Then you are insanely lucky because you dont actually meet the awful meta, and dont suffer as a result of the patch like most people are. But consider this: There is a reason MOTA was pretty much exactly as we explain and not at all like what you describe.

@"Lighter.5631" said:he's literally saying big effect telegraphed melee skill is bad, but being able to kill people with instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled.When there is many of them + other parallel mecanics yeah, If you can't get it : 1 +1 = 2 => child level.

Except thats a load of nonsense. But I suppose if you operate on a childs level, its not surprising you thing big telegraphed hits are bad.

And also where did I write that "instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled. " ?

I mean youve been defending the current meta a lot. It doesnt have as much range, but the other 2 are pretty accurate. Instant cast, and way more faceroll.

[viquing.8254]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:The "point" fails because Zangiefs attacks also arent gated by a cooldown. Imagine if he could heavy kick only once every 8 seconds. Thats why the analogy breaks apart entirely.Yeah you didn't understand a things about this comparison :If a guys has 2 times more atomic attacks than you can counter it, even if they are telegraphed you still lose.

The part you dont seem to understand is that A, youre not supposed ot be able to avoid 100% of the damage and B, you are

also doing damage to them

. Youre not sitting there taking it all. They cant just throw out all their attacks in a row because if they do, you stop them and kill them on the crackback. Its a nice back and forth. Unlike now.Yep but the first part wasn't the case prepatch. And the second part was way more too efficient pre-patch.

When there is many of them + other parallel mecanics yeah, If you can't get it : 1 +1 = 2 => child level.Except thats a load of nonsense. But I suppose if you operate on a childs level, its not surprising you thing big telegraphed hits are bad.And also where did I write that "instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled. " ?I mean youve been defending the current meta a lot. It doesnt have as much range, but the other 2 are pretty accurate. Instant cast, and way more faceroll.

I'm pretty sure lighter like you answer for him.Anyway one more extrapolation and out of context things : when did I said big telegraphed hits are bad ?I try to explain to you that they are bad when there is plenthy of them and many parallel strong tools and effects. You really need to read posts and understand what is written before spam answer beside the point.I defend the current meta because I meet way more diversity than before and the gap between meta and other build isn't as hudge as before.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:The "point" fails because Zangiefs attacks also arent gated by a cooldown. Imagine if he could heavy kick only once every 8 seconds. Thats why the analogy breaks apart entirely.Yeah you didn't understand a things about this comparison :If a guys has 2 times more atomic attacks than you can counter it, even if they are telegraphed you still lose.

The part you dont seem to understand is that A, youre not supposed ot be able to avoid 100% of the damage and B, you are

also doing damage to them

. Youre not sitting there taking it all. They cant just throw out all their attacks in a row because if they do, you stop them and kill them on the crackback. Its a nice back and forth. Unlike now.

Then youre not playing GW2, Im afraid. I play Core Grenade Engineer, which is, funny enough, one of the highest damage bursters left, and hitting someone for 50% happens almost never, and the few builds that take that much damage just gain it all back anyway.Or you aren't playing GW2.

No, I am.

Mean it's lovely how you are presuaded to know the game while you clearly extrapolate things.

I dont extrapolate anything.

Thanks also M. ego to decide if I play or not. Let me write it one more time : I play the game and I don't meet tank everywhere.

Then you are insanely lucky because you dont actually meet the awful meta, and dont suffer as a result of the patch like most people are. But consider this: There is a reason MOTA was pretty much exactly as we explain and not at

all

like what you describe.

@"Lighter.5631" said:he's literally saying big effect telegraphed melee skill is bad, but being able to kill people with instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled.When there is many of them + other parallel mecanics yeah, If you can't get it : 1 +1 = 2 => child level.

Except thats a load of nonsense. But I suppose if you operate on a childs level, its not surprising you thing big telegraphed hits are bad.

And also where did I write that "instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled. " ?

I mean youve been defending the current meta a lot. It doesnt have as much range, but the other 2 are pretty accurate. Instant cast, and way more faceroll.

Honestly man just ditch this clown fiesta vid for the many better ones and if ever changes for the better just come back. It prob wont and yeah it sucks the investment a lot of us have put into the game but regardless of that it's still a gbage pile in the end at this point. Leave gw2 pvp to vanq, aurlundle(spelled wrong I know cant be bothered) and the other small handful of people that actually enjoy low skill, condi spam bunker meta play and they can play it out till it dies which wont take long. If by chance the devs get replaced with devs that actually know how to work for a living and do their jobs that they've committed to and the game improves u can always pop in and see how it feels. Ull be much better off imo.I personally like coming to these forums cuz it's kinda amusing watching the game fall, wish it wasn't but cuz how the devs are mis-managing it it's hard to not think they deserve this low of a population.

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:The "point" fails because Zangiefs attacks also arent gated by a cooldown. Imagine if he could heavy kick only once every 8 seconds. Thats why the analogy breaks apart entirely.Yeah you didn't understand a things about this comparison :If a guys has 2 times more atomic attacks than you can counter it, even if they are telegraphed you still lose.

The part you dont seem to understand is that A, youre not supposed ot be able to avoid 100% of the damage and B, you are

also doing damage to them

. Youre not sitting there taking it all. They cant just throw out all their attacks in a row because if they do, you stop them and kill them on the crackback. Its a nice back and forth. Unlike now.Yep but the first part wasn't the case prepatch. And the second part was way more too efficient pre-patch.

No, the first part Absolutely was the case pre-patch. What changed is that we went from a skillful back and forth where mistakes get punished and you had to carefully time your skills and set them up to a boring faceroll slog where you just spam everything off cooldown and people still only die if outnumbered. Dull.

When there is many of them + other parallel mecanics yeah, If you can't get it : 1 +1 = 2 => child level.Except thats a load of nonsense. But I suppose if you operate on a childs level, its not surprising you thing big telegraphed hits are bad.And also where did I write that "instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled. " ?I mean youve been defending the current meta a lot. It doesnt have as much range, but the other 2 are pretty accurate. Instant cast, and way more faceroll.

I'm pretty sure lighter like you answer for him.Anyway one more extrapolation and out of context things : when did I said big telegraphed hits are bad ?

"Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.". "Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.". And your obsession with "3 in 1 buttons". Do you want me to go on? You said it repeatedly. Its neither extrapolation (You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means) nor is it "out of context".

I try to explain to you that they are bad when there is plenthy of them and many parallel strong tools and effects. You really need to read posts and understand what is written before spam answer beside the point.

And yet you spoke out against individual big telegraphs repeatedly. And despite your assertion that they are bad, you have yet to provide any evidence or explanation for it, mainly because you dont have any. Because its not bad when there are a lot of telegraphs. Its good. It makes for interesting and skillful gameplay.

I defend the current meta because I meet way more diversity than before and the gap between meta and other build isn't as hudge as before.

The first part, sure, since its your subjective experience I cant say anything about it. The second part is so hilariously wrong, you couldnt be further from the truth. Before the patch, the gap between meta and other builds was pretty narrow. Every class was viable, and every class had multiple builds accross multiple specs that were either viable, or close to it. Post-patch, the gap between meta and other builds has increased massively. 2 classes straight up arent viable at all. And most of the remaining 7 have exactly 1 viable build, or at best 1 spec they can use. Only 2 or 3 classes can even use more than 1 spec.

Oh but while I cant deny your subjective experience on the first one, I can however tell you that the reason you meet way more diversity isnt because of the meta, but rather because you are insanely lucky and have been able to avoid the current meta. If you had to actually face the meta, you would see that in truth, diversity has gone way down as a result of the patch, and the current meta isnt even half as diverse as the previous one.

[viquing.8254]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:Yep but the first part wasn't the case prepatch. And the second part was way more too efficient pre-patch.

No, the first part

Absolutely

was the case pre-patch. What changed is that we went from a skillful back and forth where mistakes get punished and you had to carefully time your skills and set them up to a boring faceroll slog where you just spam everything off cooldown and people still only die if outnumbered. Dull.Even top streams complained about being randomly taken half life gut because of atomic spam before patch.No people don't die only if outnumbered.

I'm pretty sure lighter like you answer for him.Anyway one more extrapolation and out of context things : when did I said big telegraphed hits are bad ?

"Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.". "Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.". And your obsession with "3 in 1 buttons". Do you want me to go on? You said it

repeatedly

. Its neither extrapolation (You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means) nor is it "out of context".Yeah and ?This quotation has nothing to do with in which case I think it shouldn't be the case and it didn't prove that I'm for

every

telegraphed skill to not have impact. Which is not the case btw.

I try to explain to you that they are bad when there is plenthy of them and many parallel strong tools and effects. You really need to read posts and understand what is written before spam answer beside the point.

And yet you spoke out against individual big telegraphs repeatedly. And despite your assertion that they are bad, you have yet to provide

any

evidence or explanation for it, mainly because you dont have any. Because its not bad when there are a lot of telegraphs. Its

good

. It makes for interesting and skillful gameplay.It wasn't interesting. Mainly because of the number of them and what were around it.

I defend the current meta because I meet way more diversity than before and the gap between meta and other build isn't as hudge as before.

The first part, sure, since its your

subjective

experience I cant say anything about it. The second part is so hilariously wrong, you couldnt be

further

from the truth. Before the patch, the gap between meta and other builds was pretty narrow. Every class was viable, and every class had multiple builds accross multiple specs that were either viable, or close to it. Post-patch, the gap between meta and other builds has

increased

massively

. 2 classes straight up arent viable at all. And most of the remaining 7 have exactly

1

viable build, or at best 1 spec they can use. Only 2 or 3 classes can even use more than 1 spec.Oh but while I cant deny your subjective experience on the first one, I

can

however tell you that the reason you meet way more diversity isnt because of the meta, but rather because you are

insanely

lucky and have been able to

avoid

the current meta. If you had to actually face the meta, you would see that in truth, diversity has gone

way

down as a result of the patch, and the current meta isnt even half as diverse as the previous one.Lol, apart thief, no class had more than 1 viable build, some of them were fucking boring (hello mirage passive clone kitting 10 sec setup dps.) and the gab between a meta build and a no-meta build was 1K miles away. Just look at current tempest/weaver versus pre-patch gap for example, same for FB/DH, renegade/herald and so on.I play more than the 120 games last season and hopefully play more this season, so I'm pretty lucky to not see the tank meta yet yes.

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Yep but the first part wasn't the case prepatch. And the second part was way more too efficient pre-patch.

No, the first part

Absolutely

was the case pre-patch. What changed is that we went from a skillful back and forth where mistakes get punished and you had to carefully time your skills and set them up to a boring faceroll slog where you just spam everything off cooldown and people still only die if outnumbered. Dull.Even top streams complained about being randomly taken half life gut because of atomic spam before patch.No people don't die only if outnumbered.

And top players complained about being obliterated by condi thief after spamming skills under confusion this patch. Individual complaints are meaningless. Besides, there was no "spam" before the patch, spamming skills off cooldown is new as a result of the patch. Its the overall thing that matters. And no, people absolutely only die if outnumbered if they play correctly. Ive told you, watch MOTA, you wont find even fights leading to kills.

I'm pretty sure lighter like you answer for him.Anyway one more extrapolation and out of context things : when did I said big telegraphed hits are bad ?

"Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.". "Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.". And your obsession with "3 in 1 buttons". Do you want me to go on? You said it

repeatedly

. Its neither extrapolation (You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means) nor is it "out of context".Yeah and ?

"You proved me wrong, and?". Youre wrong, and in fact against telegraphed skills.

This quotation has nothing to do with in which case I think it shouldn't be the case and it didn't prove that I'm for every telegraphed skill to not have impact. Which is not the case btw.

Except of course it absolutely is about that, but you dont want to admit that. You said that no skill should do "3 things with one button" (to the point of obsession), and that you shouldnt "lose 40% of your hp from one skill". Hell, you did it again just above.

I try to explain to you that they are bad when there is plenthy of them and many parallel strong tools and effects. You really need to read posts and understand what is written before spam answer beside the point.

And yet you spoke out against individual big telegraphs repeatedly. And despite your assertion that they are bad, you have yet to provide

any

evidence or explanation for it, mainly because you dont have any. Because its not bad when there are a lot of telegraphs. Its

good

. It makes for interesting and skillful gameplay.It wasn't interesting. Mainly because of the number of them and what were around it.

Except it was. Nice, high skill fast paced back and forth. Very exciting. Its the current patch thats not interesting. Its a bad sign when interrupting a res glyph is the most exciting thing to happen all match (even though it was a good interrupt).

I defend the current meta because I meet way more diversity than before and the gap between meta and other build isn't as hudge as before.

The first part, sure, since its your

subjective

experience I cant say anything about it. The second part is so hilariously wrong, you couldnt be

further

from the truth. Before the patch, the gap between meta and other builds was pretty narrow. Every class was viable, and every class had multiple builds accross multiple specs that were either viable, or close to it. Post-patch, the gap between meta and other builds has

increased

massively

. 2 classes straight up arent viable at all. And most of the remaining 7 have exactly

1

viable build, or at best 1 spec they can use. Only 2 or 3 classes can even use more than 1 spec.Oh but while I cant deny your subjective experience on the first one, I

can

however tell you that the reason you meet way more diversity isnt because of the meta, but rather because you are

insanely

lucky and have been able to

avoid

the current meta. If you had to actually face the meta, you would see that in truth, diversity has gone

way

down as a result of the patch, and the current meta isnt even half as diverse as the previous one.Lol, apart thief, no class had more than 1 viable build, some of them were kitten boring (hello mirage passive clone kitting 10 sec setup dps.) and the gab between a meta build and a no-meta build was 1K miles away. Just look at current tempest/weaver versus pre-patch gap for example, same for FB/DH, renegade/herald and so on.

Except for Guardian, which had 3, Ranger, which 2-3, Revenant, which had 2 (Renegade mightve been decent but noone played it, so I dont count it), Warrior, which had 2, Engineer, which had 3, Necro, which had 2-3 (Scourge was decent in very specific comps), Ele which had 2-3 (though they were all weavers) and .... wait thats almost all of them. Only Mesmer didnt have more than 1 build. As opposed to now, where Warrior has 0, Mesmer has 0, Guardian has 2, Ranger has 1, Engineer has 1 (I love core grenadier but I aint gonna act like its good), Elementalist has 1, Revenant has 3, Necro has 2. Note how most of them are a lot lower, and the only class to have more viable builds is Revenant.

And sure, some were boring, but some being boring is better than the current state of "almost all builds are boring". And no, the gap was very narrow. More than 1k miles away is the current patch, the old patch was much less wide. But sure, lets compare. Tempest before the patch was just below viable, and Weaver was great. Post-patch Tempest is great and Weaver isnt viable at all. Thats 1 point to the old patch. FB/DH, pre-patch was pretty narrow with DH even being viable. Post-patch, DH is nowhere near viable and FB no less dominant. Thats 2 points to the old patch. Renegade Herald, unclear. No one really tried Renegade pre-patch, and its not exactly common even now. But I did say Revenant was the exception. Now, lets compare Warrior and Mesmer pre-patch to now. Ooof, they both went from good to unplayable. Thats worth double. So thats 6 points to the old patch, and 1 to the new patch. Yeah it aint even close.

I play more than the 120 games last season and hopefully play more this season, so I'm pretty lucky to not see the tank meta yet yes.

Indeed you are. But as I said, if you want to see what the meta and its diversity actually looks like, just look at the MOTA. Tanks everywhere, with a couple supports and the utility roamer that is thief. Extremely low diversity, with only 7 classes being played at all and only 6 commonly. Every team had one of either Tempest or Firebrand, one Necro, one Herald, the obvious thief, and one of either Ranger or Holosmith. Much as I enjoyed the game, that was purely because of the macro, because outnumbering is the only way kills ever happened, and we of course had the 1v1s where people either just danced because they knew neither would die without outnumbering and noone would outnumber them because it hurts their macro, or they fought for 7+ minutes without dying.

[viquing.8254]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

I'm pretty sure lighter like you answer for him.Anyway one more extrapolation and out of context things : when did I said big telegraphed hits are bad ?

"Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.". "Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.". And your obsession with "3 in 1 buttons". Do you want me to go on? You said it

repeatedly

. Its neither extrapolation (You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means) nor is it "out of context".Yeah and ?

"You proved me wrong, and?". Youre wrong, and in fact against telegraphed skills.One more time :This quotation has nothing to do with in which case I think it shouldn't be the case and it didn't prove that I'm for

every

telegraphed skill to not have impact. Which is not the case btw.Dunno what is hard to understand.Except of course it absolutely is about that, but you dont want to admit that. You said that no skill should do "3 things with one button" (to the point of obsession), and that you shouldnt "lose 40% of your hp from one skill". Hell, you did it again

just above

.Will you continue quoting sentences out of context for a long time ?No problem I have all the time to repeat untile you get it.The problem is when you have plethora of thoses skills + parallels effects.Want me to write it again in another answer ?

I try to explain to you that they are bad when there is plenthy of them and many parallel strong tools and effects. You really need to read posts and understand what is written before spam answer beside the point.

And yet you spoke out against individual big telegraphs repeatedly. And despite your assertion that they are bad, you have yet to provide

any

evidence or explanation for it, mainly because you dont have any. Because its not bad when there are a lot of telegraphs. Its

good

. It makes for interesting and skillful gameplay.It wasn't interesting. Mainly because of the number of them and what were around it.

Except it was. Nice, high skill fast paced back and forth. Very exciting. Its the

current

patch thats not interesting. Its a bad sign when interrupting a res glyph is the most exciting thing to happen all match (even though it was a good interrupt).

It wasn't high skill fast paced it was focus target, roll damage and aoe then switch to next target.Basic example : a thief or a PU mes or a teleport from LoS rev or a ranger or literally most of pre-patch builds jump on you from stealth, you lose 75% hp, if you play a "good class" you can resustain thoses HP (or you get carried by auto-mitigation), if not, you could just run away at 15% life. The same analogy can be made for most +1 builds/roaming build pre-patch.It made people fight 10m around points because nobody can stay here and they spend game to run from point to point. Just look at how birdi or any other top necro had to literally perma stay out of point in no teleport safe spot to live enough to land few skills...

Except for Guardian, which had 3, Ranger, which 2-3, Revenant, which had 2 (Renegade mightve been decent but noone played it, so I dont count it), Warrior, which had 2, Engineer, which had 3, Necro, which had 2-3 (Scourge was decent in very specific comps), Ele which had 2-3 (though they were all weavers) and .... wait thats almost all of them. Only Mesmer didnt have more than 1 build. As opposed to now, where Warrior has 0, Mesmer has 0, Guardian has 2, Ranger has 1, Engineer has 1 (I love core grenadier but I aint gonna act like its good), Elementalist has 1, Revenant has 3, Necro has 2. Note how most of them are a lot lower, and the only class to have more viable builds is Revenant.And sure, some were boring, but some being boring is better than the current state of "almost all builds are boring". And no, the gap was very narrow. More than 1k miles away is the current patch, the old patch was much less wide. But sure, lets compare. Tempest before the patch was just below viable, and Weaver was great. Post-patch Tempest is great and Weaver isnt viable at all. Thats 1 point to the old patch. FB/DH, pre-patch was pretty narrow with DH even being viable. Post-patch, DH is nowhere near viable and FB no less dominant. Thats 2 points to the old patch. Renegade Herald, unclear. No one really tried Renegade pre-patch, and its not exactly common even now. But I did say Revenant was the exception. Now, lets compare Warrior and Mesmer pre-patch to now. Ooof, they both went from good to unplayable. Thats worth double. So thats 6 points to the old patch, and 1 to the new patch. Yeah it aint even close.No, I totally disagree the viability gap about what you describa was way more important than after. I never saw a tempest, DH were pretty rare, regenade was subpar.Warriors and mesmers saw a hudge gap reduction between their specs (even if they got destroyed at least your aren't tied to one spec to carry.). Pre patch mesmer was the boring clone passive setup who wasn't even that good or the PU one shot who was eaten alive by rev and thieves.And top players complained about being obliterated by condi thief after spamming skills under confusion this patch. Individual complaints are meaningless. Besides, there was no "spam" before the patch, spamming skills off cooldown is new as a result of the patch. Its the overall thing that matters. And no, people absolutely only die if outnumbered if they play correctly. Ive told you, watch MOTA, you wont find even fights leading to kills.Indeed you are. But as I said, if you want to see what the meta and its diversity actually looks like, just look at the MOTA. Tanks everywhere, with a couple supports and the utility roamer that is thief. Extremely low diversity, with only 7 classes being played at all and only 6 commonly. Every team had one of either Tempest or Firebrand, one Necro, one Herald, the obvious thief, and one of either Ranger or Holosmith. Much as I enjoyed the game, that was purely because of the macro, because outnumbering is the only way kills ever happened, and we of course had the 1v1s where people either just danced because they knew neither would die without outnumbering and noone would outnumber them because it hurts their macro, or they fought for 7+ minutes without dying.Because you think MOTA pre-patch would had better diversity ?

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

I'm pretty sure lighter like you answer for him.Anyway one more extrapolation and out of context things : when did I said big telegraphed hits are bad ?

"Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.". "Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.". And your obsession with "3 in 1 buttons". Do you want me to go on? You said it

repeatedly

. Its neither extrapolation (You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means) nor is it "out of context".Yeah and ?

"You proved me wrong, and?". Youre wrong, and in fact against telegraphed skills.One more time :This quotation has nothing to do with in which case I think it shouldn't be the case and it didn't prove that I'm for

every

telegraphed skill to not have impact. Which is not the case btw.Dunno what is hard to understand.

The fact that despite your attempt to backtrack, you did in fact say that youre for every telegraphed skill to not have impact. Else you wouldnt have complained about every single one "3 in 1 button", and about Warrior having the ability to do 40% in one hit. Im sorry, but you already made it clear what you believe.

Except of course it absolutely is about that, but you dont want to admit that. You said that no skill should do "3 things with one button" (to the point of obsession), and that you shouldnt "lose 40% of your hp from one skill". Hell, you did it again

just above

.Will you continue quoting sentences out of context for a long time ?

Except Im not. The context for "lose 40% of your hp from one skill" was that Warriors are bad post-patch. I pointed out that despite your obsession with "3 in 1 buttons" ,they are not the reason Warrior sucks. And then you mentioned the reason they do suck, none of their telegraphed hits do much damage anymore. Youre against them. And again, you also were against ALL "3 in 1 button" skills, as you said numerously.

No problem I have all the time to repeat untile you get it.

You can repeat your backtracking to try and save face, but we already know that you truly do not believe telegraphed skills should hit hard. Hence why you even said this: "The most competitive game should it be FPS, combat, racing have exatly the same result for the same buttons pushed. Very few distinguish after with the combo who follow. But you never had one player smashing 2 times more damage per action than other.". Sorry to say, your true position is clear.

The problem is when you have plethora of thoses skills + parallels effects.Want me to write it again in another answer ?

Oh save your breath. Just repeat what you truly believe and have written before. "The same button should have the exact same result. Telegraphed skills shouldnt hit hard".

I try to explain to you that they are bad when there is plenthy of them and many parallel strong tools and effects. You really need to read posts and understand what is written before spam answer beside the point.

And yet you spoke out against individual big telegraphs repeatedly. And despite your assertion that they are bad, you have yet to provide

any

evidence or explanation for it, mainly because you dont have any. Because its not bad when there are a lot of telegraphs. Its

good

. It makes for interesting and skillful gameplay.It wasn't interesting. Mainly because of the number of them and what were around it.

Except it was. Nice, high skill fast paced back and forth. Very exciting. Its the

current

patch thats not interesting. Its a bad sign when interrupting a res glyph is the most exciting thing to happen all match (even though it was a good interrupt).

It wasn't high skill fast paced it was focus target, roll damage and aoe then switch to next target.

Spoken like a true bad player. Sure, you will succeed with that in the current meta, because the current meta is skill-less face-roll, but if you did that in pre-patch, you would get absolutely stomped without recourse. Like, not a chance, if you did that you would just lose endless as your enemy just stops your skills real quick and destroys you with his counterattacks. It was absolutely high-skill, and the fact that you didnt see that says a lot about you.

Basic example : a thief or a PU mes or a teleport from LoS rev or a ranger or literally most of pre-patch builds jump on you from stealth, you lose 75% hp, if you play a "good class" you can resustain thoses HP (or you get carried by auto-mitigation), if not, you could just run away at 15% life. The same analogy can be made for most +1 builds/roaming build pre-patch.

Hahahahahahahaha, oh boy, this is hilarious. "You lose 75% from a thief burst". Man that slaps me on the knee. You know how thieves are exclusively a +1 class, and have been for years? Yeah thats because they cant do that. Pre-patch, the most a thief could get any of the good builds is just about 40%, tops. And thats max damage max glass cannon. Ok for +1ing, but bad for 1v1s. PU Mesmer could, but that wasnt played because it had major issues. And now, the rest. First, Rev doesnt have stealth. Ranger didnt have stealth it could use before engaging. And second, when they jumped you, you could fight back. And they could deal with that. It became a game of footsies, to use the fighting game term. A skillful but fast back and forth where both players tried to make the other one screw up first. But if you didnt screw up, you did not lose much hp.

It made people fight 10m around points because nobody can stay here and they spend game to run from point to point. Just look at how birdi or any other top necro had to literally perma stay out of point in no teleport safe spot to live enough to land few skills...

Fighting 10 minutes around point is the current meta. Running from point to point is the current meta (because you have to in order to even be able to kill anyone). No, pre-patch what you had were nice teamfights that were just one large game of footsies, and once one team screws up, the other team gets the momentum and can capitalise on it. And yes, squishy damage dealers had to position correctly to not be focusfired down because people could actually be reasonably killed. Thats a good thing.

Except for Guardian, which had 3, Ranger, which 2-3, Revenant, which had 2 (Renegade mightve been decent but noone played it, so I dont count it), Warrior, which had 2, Engineer, which had 3, Necro, which had 2-3 (Scourge was decent in very specific comps), Ele which had 2-3 (though they were all weavers) and .... wait thats almost all of them. Only Mesmer didnt have more than 1 build. As opposed to now, where Warrior has 0, Mesmer has 0, Guardian has 2, Ranger has 1, Engineer has 1 (I love core grenadier but I aint gonna act like its good), Elementalist has 1, Revenant has 3, Necro has 2. Note how most of them are a lot lower, and the

only

class to have more viable builds is Revenant.And sure, some were boring, but some being boring is better than the current state of "almost

all

builds are boring". And no, the gap was very narrow. More than 1k miles away is the

current

patch, the old patch was much less wide. But sure, lets compare. Tempest before the patch was just below viable, and Weaver was great. Post-patch Tempest is great and Weaver isnt viable at all. Thats 1 point to the old patch. FB/DH, pre-patch was pretty narrow with DH even being viable. Post-patch, DH is nowhere near viable and FB no less dominant. Thats 2 points to the old patch. Renegade Herald, unclear. No one really tried Renegade pre-patch, and its not exactly common even now. But I did say Revenant was the exception. Now, lets compare Warrior and Mesmer pre-patch to now. Ooof, they both went from good to unplayable. Thats worth double. So thats 6 points to the old patch, and 1 to the new patch. Yeah it aint even close.No, I totally disagree the viability gap about what you describa was way more important than after. I never saw a tempest, DH were pretty rare, regenade was subpar.

You can disagree, it doesnt matter, we saw what was played at the highest level before, and after the patch. Spoiler: DH was played a lot more than right now.

Warriors and mesmers saw a hudge gap reduction between their specs (even if they got destroyed at least your aren't tied to one spec to carry.). Pre patch mesmer was the boring clone passive setup who wasn't even that good or the PU one shot who was eaten alive by rev and thieves.

Not really, the gap got even bigger. Its just that Warrior and Mesmer as a whole are useless anyway, and different levels of useless dont matter. But Core Warrior is a lot worse compared to spellbreaker now than it was pre-patch. And I see you failed to address the other ones. Realising that you have no counter for the fact that diversity was much higher pre-patch, I guess?

And top players complained about being obliterated by condi thief after spamming skills under confusion this patch. Individual complaints are meaningless. Besides, there was no "spam" before the patch, spamming skills off cooldown is new as a result of the patch. Its the overall thing that matters. And no, people absolutely only die if outnumbered if they play correctly. Ive told you, watch MOTA, you wont find even fights leading to kills.Indeed you are. But as I said, if you want to see what the meta and its diversity

actually

looks like, just look at the MOTA. Tanks everywhere, with a couple supports and the utility roamer that is thief. Extremely low diversity, with only 7 classes being played

at all

and only 6 commonly. Every team had one of either Tempest or Firebrand, one Necro, one Herald, the obvious thief, and one of either Ranger or Holosmith. Much as I enjoyed the game, that was purely because of the macro, because outnumbering is the only way kills ever happened, and we of course had the 1v1s where people either just danced because they knew neither would die without outnumbering and noone would outnumber them because it hurts their macro, or they fought for 7+ minutes without dying.Because you think MOTA pre-patch would had better diversity ?

Of course it wouldve, are you kidding? Its not even close. Just compare MATs now to MATs pre-patch, and the difference is staggering. You wouldnt have had the same cookie cutter teamcomp be used so much.

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

I used to play mirage before, i know it was OP but i had fun on it, when it had 2 dodges, also before chrono destructions... Right now, game is ok but some classes got just destroyed/overnerfed instead of being changed/reworked. It is not funny to play mesmer anymore.

[Lighter.5631]

@"viquing.8254" said:where did I write that "instant casts and range skills spam with more button to face roll is completely fine and is more skilled. " ?

the moment you say that meta now is better then pre feb 25th, think two moments before you type anything,

[viquing.8254]

@UNOwen.7132My my, it's lovely how some players here try to describilise other by writting for them and do the questions and answers I'm sad for you, really.

First having impact can be different to having muliple effects. Look at sniper ambush. Highly telgraphed and only does damage.Secondly one more time more precisely :I have no problem with few telegraphed skill being impactfull.

Then I dunno what you were playing prepatch but it look kinda tanky and full of sustain looking at how you laugh, probably not all time on grenade engi. I totally understand that by playing this tank tou can't kill anything post patch.Hint : go play squich build then enjoy the game.

I have the same rank prepatch and post patch. Who are you before yelling about other level because I don't remember seeing you in game aprt whinig on forum.

Prepatch was 10 min fighting(moving) around points. Post patch is 10 min fighting on point.Tdlr.