Do You Find The Game More Fun To Play Now Or Before Revamp

[solemn.9670]

Condi CC meta ... no thxAnet did a lot of things right with that patch, to their credit.But I don't like needing to run sigil cleanse on every single build I play.

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Anyway I barely play the game anymore so this stuff effects u guys more than I:).But I also could care less vanq what u think, if I play war post patch and feel that its weak in comparison to other classes I play and find it now less fun to play that's my deal, how u feel doesnt effect how war feels to me but when pretty much all war mains feel the same as me and hearing vallun,noody, happyno, mighty teapot and sindrener all state war is weak post patch I'm inclined to think I'm on to something where as ur opinion holds literally no weight or backing so.....

Ofc war is weak because what I said about skill who did 3 things per clics.Ofc it's not fun to not 2 shot people anymore by spamming the same combo forever.

Thief prepatch had a ladder representation more than enjoyable, understand the "fun" fact of playing something with diversity and highly represented.

If you can't understand how pushing a button who did 5k + 3 sec hard CC + Mobility + evade versus class who had to push 4 buttons for it isn't healthy I will write it simple for you : the less action you have to do for the same result, the easier it is.

About war, you are right, every skills are predictable, they just throwed way more "predictable" 5k+ (and sometimes CC and/or evade tied in it) than you can counter. Mean duelling boyce or goku to see in log that his main damage came from 8k unblocable evade or attacks with evade tied in it. Hmm you smell the skill...

Literally most high end players that streams competitions give their opinions about class they didn't even play. Just count the amount of time they say mesmers is op while not even being able to perform with it because their current class is way more carrying. But it's hard to admit.

Now warrior isn't in a good spot but it just need a "what this class gameplay is supossed to be" like mirage or chrono. Which has nothing to do with the rework as like everyone said when I say 'but this class can do it' : it's not because something it's bad design that you could use it. (=> argumentation on most mesmers nerfs.)

Now your opinion, like some other eternal whiners who always have to whine about something in this forum, has probably the same height you gave to my post.

Again u have to consider design of the class. If a class burst is highly telegraphed and predictable or its main burst in question is than yes its should be punishing to get hit by or it would not be effective. On the other hand if a class like thief for example requires couple more button presses the fact that it's less predictable and telegraphed makes up for the extra button presses. A class like war will always be more predictable and telegraphed than most classes or basic u could generally say and that wont change so if it is more predictable and has more telegraphed skills than most and requires same input to do same effect of classes that dont suffer the issues it will always feel inferior to play as it does now

I have doubts about the fact that a bullcharge + F1 combo under quickness launched in melee is obviously telegraphed but whatever.They have unblocable skills which mean that even if you know they will do something chance are high you can't counter it with your usual tempo. They are basically immune to cripple, can build to be very resistant to hard CC. I will not make 300 lines about war because I have basics knowledge on it but even by not poping 4k+ minimum each attacks they have strong particularity.They have to turn it more into teamfight than into duellist with atomic buttons full of passive effects IMO.It's all to anet to find what gameplay they want to give to them.

And what about chrono who has highly telegraphed skills but has no sustain or damage.... (Mean getting hit by grav well is the same obviousness to get hit by bullcharge and it didn't give evade to the mes. I didn't even talk about trahs other wells).

wait, what about berserker who has higher telegraphed skills and has worse sustain and worse damage? yes nerf spellbreaker because it was better then chrono, also nerf chrono because it's obviously better then berserker LOL, can we also nerf all mesmer spec because throw bola is so bad? tanks.

Hi we found someone who like to split things out of context.Welcome.We don't nerf spellbreaker because of chrono but telegraphed skills should bot necessary have 5k damage tied in it.

A telegraphed skill needs to have a huge effect tied to it. Otherwise, mistakes dont matter and you can screw up repeatedly and not get punished for it. That way, you get a meta like right now. An awful, awful meta.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Anyway I barely play the game anymore so this stuff effects u guys more than I:).But I also could care less vanq what u think, if I play war post patch and feel that its weak in comparison to other classes I play and find it now less fun to play that's my deal, how u feel doesnt effect how war feels to me but when pretty much all war mains feel the same as me and hearing vallun,noody, happyno, mighty teapot and sindrener all state war is weak post patch I'm inclined to think I'm on to something where as ur opinion holds literally no weight or backing so.....

Ofc war is weak because what I said about skill who did 3 things per clics.Ofc it's not fun to not 2 shot people anymore by spamming the same combo forever.

Thief prepatch had a ladder representation more than enjoyable, understand the "fun" fact of playing something with diversity and highly represented.

If you can't understand how pushing a button who did 5k + 3 sec hard CC + Mobility + evade versus class who had to push 4 buttons for it isn't healthy I will write it simple for you : the less action you have to do for the same result, the easier it is.

About war, you are right, every skills are predictable, they just throwed way more "predictable" 5k+ (and sometimes CC and/or evade tied in it) than you can counter. Mean duelling boyce or goku to see in log that his main damage came from 8k unblocable evade or attacks with evade tied in it. Hmm you smell the skill...

Literally most high end players that streams competitions give their opinions about class they didn't even play. Just count the amount of time they say mesmers is op while not even being able to perform with it because their current class is way more carrying. But it's hard to admit.

Now warrior isn't in a good spot but it just need a "what this class gameplay is supossed to be" like mirage or chrono. Which has nothing to do with the rework as like everyone said when I say 'but this class can do it' : it's not because something it's bad design that you could use it. (=> argumentation on most mesmers nerfs.)

Now your opinion, like some other eternal whiners who always have to whine about something in this forum, has probably the same height you gave to my post.

Again u have to consider design of the class. If a class burst is highly telegraphed and predictable or its main burst in question is than yes its should be punishing to get hit by or it would not be effective. On the other hand if a class like thief for example requires couple more button presses the fact that it's less predictable and telegraphed makes up for the extra button presses. A class like war will always be more predictable and telegraphed than most classes or basic u could generally say and that wont change so if it is more predictable and has more telegraphed skills than most and requires same input to do same effect of classes that dont suffer the issues it will always feel inferior to play as it does now

I have doubts about the fact that a bullcharge + F1 combo under quickness launched in melee is obviously telegraphed but whatever.

The quickness is the telegraph. If they use Quickness, thats when that combo is coming and you should probably dodge.They have the option to brain you by not using this combo and use another skills who did 4k +. Btw their main damage at high level was unblocable evade in their golden time.

Those other skills were also telegraphed and avoidable. And nah, the evade, while decent, was never their main damage. 1.5 is not that high a scaling.

They have unblocable skills which mean that even if you know they will do something chance are high you can't counter it with your usual tempo. They are basically immune to cripple, can build to be very resistant to hard CC. I will not make 300 lines about war because I have basics knowledge on it but even by not poping 4k+ minimum each attacks they have strong particularity.

Most classes rely on evades more than blocks. For that matter, their unblockable skills were not very high damage. So thats an odd thing to complain about.You don't get it I'm not complaining about warrior but about the fact that they have other particularity than throwing 4k every single attack.And apart thief and weaver. Most class rely on block.

I have no idea what youre saying with the first sentence. If you meant "They throw 4k every single attack", then that is simply completely 100% wrong. If thats the basis of your argument, you already lost. And no, for every class their biggest survivability tool is either evade, or invuln.

They have to turn it more into teamfight than into duellist with atomic buttons full of passive effects IMO.It's all to anet to find what gameplay they want to give to them.

The gameplay they had was perfectly fine. Warrior is and was always the most fair class to fight (well, out of the ones actually played). So I have to say, finding people who dislike it is just amusing to me. Though, word of advice: If Arheundel agrees you with, youre most likely wrong.No, they have he more x actions and passive effect tools of every class that's why they get the most umpacted when anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action.

Not much to say here except "youre wrong". They dont. The reason they were impacted the most was not because "anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action." (first of all, they didnt. Most condi skills still do a bunch of things at once. Second as I have explained, those skills arent why Warrior sucks). The reason they were impacted the most is because their damage was hit harder than average and they were already not as powerful.

And what about chrono who has highly telegraphed skills but has no sustain or damage.... (Mean getting hit by grav well is the same obviousness to get hit by bullcharge and it didn't give evade to the mes. I didn't even talk about trahs other wells).

2 wrongs does not make a right. If Chrono was underperforming, then buff up chrono. Dont nerf everything else.Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.

Always with these "oh 3 actions on hit!!1!!1!". The number of things a skill can do shouldnt be limited. And no, highly telegraphed absolutely justifies high damage and additional effects. Else, again, you get this garbage meta.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@mortrialus.3062 :No, it's not a cele ele meta, neither a chrono bunker like meta, people can be killed if they rollface contrary to what few players seems to brainspam in this forum trying to make it a truth like it ever been.

Yes, thats why we saw 2 people dancing in the MOTA because they both knew they couldnt kill each other. Its worse than the Cele Ele meta, Cele Ele actually did damage. As did Cele Engineer.How many time did this happen.

Several times. Other times they fought each other for 7+ minutes without either ever dying. HEre is the better question. How often did those kinds of 1v1 lead to either of them dying within 7 minutes? The answer is never.

It has nothing to do with global balance orientation but wih few class tweak.

Its absolutely global balance. Almost every class can create a build like that. A build that just almost doesnt die because damage right now is too low outside of condi, and condi just has cleanses and resistance to deal with.

With more combat duration you have the time to do complete rotations or combo on some build who never existed before because it was just "spam burst combo".

Yeah except fights were long enough for almost all skills to come up again pre-patch. We already did full rotations and combos. Now however, well fights are so long and so slow that combos or rotations dont matter. You just use everything off cooldown and hope that you can kill them. Its less skillful. Its more spammy.No, prepatch was always the same things for ages.

Yes. The same thing. Fights long enough for everything to come up several times and for rotations and combos to be done, but not so long that you forsake those and just spam everything off CD like you do right now.

@Psycoprophet.8107 :Ho after reading your last answers you obviously being carried by plethore 3 in 1 buttons pre patch, I understand why you get so mad (But hey, just dodge hu :) .).

Yes, because Warrior, the notoriously balanced and fair class, "carried" people. What a load of nonsense.Agains this discussion was about the rework not about warrior being op. It wasn't pre patch ofc.But ot has a bunch of 3 in 1 tools.

Despite your obsession with "3 in 1", as I have explained several times, thats not why Warrior sucks.

Stranghely warriors are the more impacted by the patch because they had the best 3 in 1 buttons in their toolbar, that's all. It's certainly hard to do as much actions as other to have results when you aren't used to.

If youre referring to bull rush, thats not the reason warrior sucks right now. Its still a good skill. Same with Rampage. Its everything else that sucks.Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.

Yeah. Because as it turns out, lowering damage so much you cant kill anyone hurts you. Given that it was consistently considered the most fair and fun to face class, there was no reason to remove it.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Anyway I barely play the game anymore so this stuff effects u guys more than I:).But I also could care less vanq what u think, if I play war post patch and feel that its weak in comparison to other classes I play and find it now less fun to play that's my deal, how u feel doesnt effect how war feels to me but when pretty much all war mains feel the same as me and hearing vallun,noody, happyno, mighty teapot and sindrener all state war is weak post patch I'm inclined to think I'm on to something where as ur opinion holds literally no weight or backing so.....

Ofc war is weak because what I said about skill who did 3 things per clics.Ofc it's not fun to not 2 shot people anymore by spamming the same combo forever.

Thief prepatch had a ladder representation more than enjoyable, understand the "fun" fact of playing something with diversity and highly represented.

If you can't understand how pushing a button who did 5k + 3 sec hard CC + Mobility + evade versus class who had to push 4 buttons for it isn't healthy I will write it simple for you : the less action you have to do for the same result, the easier it is.

About war, you are right, every skills are predictable, they just throwed way more "predictable" 5k+ (and sometimes CC and/or evade tied in it) than you can counter. Mean duelling boyce or goku to see in log that his main damage came from 8k unblocable evade or attacks with evade tied in it. Hmm you smell the skill...

Literally most high end players that streams competitions give their opinions about class they didn't even play. Just count the amount of time they say mesmers is op while not even being able to perform with it because their current class is way more carrying. But it's hard to admit.

Now warrior isn't in a good spot but it just need a "what this class gameplay is supossed to be" like mirage or chrono. Which has nothing to do with the rework as like everyone said when I say 'but this class can do it' : it's not because something it's bad design that you could use it. (=> argumentation on most mesmers nerfs.)

Now your opinion, like some other eternal whiners who always have to whine about something in this forum, has probably the same height you gave to my post.

Again u have to consider design of the class. If a class burst is highly telegraphed and predictable or its main burst in question is than yes its should be punishing to get hit by or it would not be effective. On the other hand if a class like thief for example requires couple more button presses the fact that it's less predictable and telegraphed makes up for the extra button presses. A class like war will always be more predictable and telegraphed than most classes or basic u could generally say and that wont change so if it is more predictable and has more telegraphed skills than most and requires same input to do same effect of classes that dont suffer the issues it will always feel inferior to play as it does now

I have doubts about the fact that a bullcharge + F1 combo under quickness launched in melee is obviously telegraphed but whatever.

Quickness didn't increase the speed of Bull's Charge so you still have that. Again if there's issues with tells we could still have address Warrior on an individual level by trimming quickness uptime, I actually agreed with sigil of agility being removed, or upping the time on certain skills like Arcing Slice. Without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It's really funny seeing so many players suddenly have a vendetta against spellbreaker because literally EVERY time a "What is the most fun/fair class to fight" it won every time with like 30-45% of the vote.Man it's crazy how the bunch of perma whiner on this forum jump on everything out of context.To make it clear I take it as an example who can apply to every class before each people here do wall of text defending war.And your most fun fair class did most of his damage with spamming unblocable evade at high level.

Except it didnt. Im starting to notice you havent got a clue about Warrior. I guess that explains why you write so much nonsense.

@viquing.8254 said:@mortrialus.3062 :No, it's not a cele ele meta, neither a chrono bunker like meta, people can be killed if they rollface contrary to what few players seems to brainspam in this forum trying to make it a truth like it ever been.With more combat duration you have the time to do complete rotations or combo on some build who never existed before because it was just "spam burst combo".

Literally go back and youtube Cele Ele 2015 and watch some of the 1v1 duel videos of people still lingering around with people literally fighting for 5-7 minutes. They aren't hard to find. This is a cele ele meta. Builds don't have massive strengths or weaknesses. Everyone is a slushy hybrid that does a little bit of everything and has way too much sustain.

Spamming your Burst Combo would only get you so far because competent players can both predict and react to incoming combos, avoid your attack, and then counter attack with their own combo.

The passive pressure around this coming from 3 in 1 tools took a more important part than predict and react.

Which is what good competitive games ACTUALLY look like. There's high damage. Things are high impact and dangerous. And it's about the mind games that allow you to play your opponent and avoid their attempts to attack you while you land your skills. Of you're you'd probably look at other games like Street Fighter, or LoL and wet the bed about how skill can do 30% of a person's health in one attack.Yeah this is also called FPS games like CS.

Is this ... supposed to be a counterargument? CS is a good competitive game. As opposed to Overwatch, which is closer to current Guild Wars 2 status, and seen as a pretty bad one.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:This whole thread is a farce, in the end you have :

-One side that is biased AF but won't admit it ever, they will "invoke" the L2P argument at every turn to justify their distorted logic

That would be you.

-One side is equally biased but openly admit it, they have their own arguments to counter the L2P crowd

That would probably be what you think you are, but thats what the people you argue against are, actually.

In the end there is only one truth : we have a game with 9 different professions and players acting like humans would act - ride the cart in their own direction and screw the rest, from the TOP to the BOTTOM , each player will favor a meta where his/her class of choice will have a vast majority of easy match ups against all other professions, the least effort to win those match ups the better, in that case the game is balanced and if you die to their class...it's ofc a L2P issue

Fun fact: You are not everyone. You are not representative of everyone. Plenty of people play classes even if they arent the best.I play Core Grenade Engineer. Is it good? Not really. But its fun. But that being said, I can still talk about the general balance, and its pathetic current state.

A doesn't want to die easy to B and B doesn't want to die easy to A

We are all biased and nobody here is a game designer , "your" streamers...entertainers...youtubers....bloggers...jokers......are biased AF as much as you, the devs themselves can be biased even if only subconsciously when applying changes , one class they're not particularly fond of, may receive a 20s CD nerf instead than a more appropriate 15s and so on.

You could argue everyone has a slight bias. But there are different degrees. Your bias dwarfs everyone elses. Your bias is like a mountain to psycoprophets molehill. Also, fun fact, there are probably a few game designers here. They tend to play video games, you know?

The title of thread is misleading...it should be renamed : "Buff my main" and buffed it will be have no fears about that, before long you will go back facerolling across the keyboard and YES...when the first "Nerf profession X" will pop out on the forum, you will be here on the front line armed with all your L2P insults , anecdotal evidence to justify your unreasonable positioning and ofc...your fictional game designing experience

You are projecting again. Noone but you does that. Noone but you wants to faceroll their class and get ez wins.

[Lighter.5631]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:This whole thread is a farce, in the end you have :

-One side that is biased AF but won't admit it ever, they will "invoke" the L2P argument at every turn to justify their distorted logicit is really l2p tho, i can beat you on any class with elite unblind, actually ill beat you on your main with elite unbind.

[viquing.8254]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Let's look at another "3 in 1" tool. The Prestige when used in close range would blind the target and stealth the mesmer. After three seconds the mesmer would unstealth and an explosion would occur around them for burning damage in a melee radius around the mesmer. So it can be used from ranged to engage, or to escape combat, or to deal damage in melee range, but it couldn't be used for all three at once. That's flexibility for sure, but you're always PICKING between two potential options; escape with it or attack with it. As far as I'm concerned. That was fine. Except now the mesmer even on a condition build can't do even 80% of the targets health with one of their primary damage dealing attacks even when fully speced for condition damage.A traited 24 second primary DPS cooldown did 14% of the medium golem's health while carrion stated which means it would take at least literally 168 seconds to kill someone with this skill and it's a PRIMARY damage dealing ability for condition mesmers. And that's IF they don't cleanse and if they don't heal. Almost every build in the game can face tank that skill 4 times back to back, use their healing skill and be back to 80-100% health depending on the class and healing skill.

You are wrong, the prestige is a sustain skill, it's normal that it didn't do damage IMO, the damage should come from the phantasm like with the majority of other mesmer weapon.

This whole idea of "well CC skills need to do basically no damage." Like I literally have no idea where that came from on a philosophical level. There wasn't some huge demand on the forum to eliminate damage dealing CC skills. The most complained about ones were like Photonic Shockwave from stealths or Overcharged Shot when the Engineer had stab and was in melee range making it basically an instant cast blow out. In real fighting games if you whiff and open yourself to getting punished you can expect to be hitstunned for several seconds. Because it was your fault. Because you opened yourself up to being countered.Apart when the opponent is outrotating you because every of his skill has to be evaded while they can face tank half of yours. I extrapolate but it's the idea. And this is what limitate most new build who pop after the patch.I don't recall literally anyone asking for this and it's lead to some for real nonsense like Warrior Hammer having three out of it's six skills do literally no damage including the kit's primary damage dealing skills, Earth Shaker and Backbreaker.Warrior hammer is somthing who need to be adressed yeah.

Or, you know, the other better ones I listed and on page 3 wrote down a breakdown of how at the more deadlier Era before the Megabalance Patch more closely resembled other good NonFPS competative games in a good way? And even then, would anyone even play CS if even after 20 headshots your opponent was still running around with 80% health? That's GW2 right now.Would anyone play CS if you kill everything by throwing grenade randomly ?Today player dance in fight for a lon time, before patch they run at range while not fighting at all because of the pressure. Which wasn't a better situation at all.But keep defending the way things are when Dive Kick's 2019 championship, a literal joke game with one button, has higher championship viewership than GW2's "Masters of the Arena." and by a huge margin. I'm sure you know what you're talking about. Dive Kick is at this point, unambiguously, a better PvP game than GW2 and it's sludge meta. It's literally a kitten joke game and STILL manages to have better fundamentals than GW2 post megabalance..Yeah and you think that prepatch meta Mota should have more viewers ? At last Misha could probably play mesmer (and it's not even sure.), that's all.But if you're such an adamant "Oh go play some other game then". I have been! And it's been tons of fun. I've been playing a bunch of Monster Hunter for my superior PvE fix, and then Blazblue and Guilty Gear Xrd Revelator in anticipation for the upcoming Guilty Gear game for my PvP fix. I gave the megabalance patch a try with 2v2s and the couple of weeks of proper conquest the season after and basically haven't looked back. This kitten is an embarrassment. If i was a part of the PvP team and it came out looking like this I would ask Arenanet to leave me uncredited because I wouldn't want to be associated with having any hand in this going forward with my Game Dev career.

I just still can't help but be nostalgic for better times in GW2 and look at what is is now and think "Wow kitten is kitten" and comment on it.I don't care about what you play but I don't want to play a game where I spend 75% of running on a map with 10% hp with only 25% fight because every hits burn you 50% HP. Just by landing burst from time to time.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:

Hi we found someone who like to split things out of context.Welcome.We don't nerf spellbreaker because of chrono but telegraphed skills should bot necessary have 5k damage tied in it.

A telegraphed skill needs to have a huge effect tied to it. Otherwise, mistakes dont matter and you can screw up repeatedly and not get punished for it. That way, you get a meta like right now. An awful,

awful

meta.What If someone have only telegraphed skills who kill you if it hit while you have 4 evade/block ? => you know you will get killed so you don't even fight.Then the problem is when for the same telegraph, the effect greatly vary between class.

They have the option to brain you by not using this combo and use another skills who did 4k +. Btw their main damage at high level was unblocable evade in their golden time.

Those other skills were

also

telegraphed and avoidable. And nah, the evade, while decent, was never their main damage. 1.5 is not that high a scaling.

You don't get it I'm not complaining about warrior but about the fact that they have other particularity than throwing 4k every single attack.And apart thief and weaver. Most class rely on block.I have no idea what youre saying with the first sentence. If you meant "They throw 4k every single attack", then that is simply completely 100% wrong. If thats the basis of your argument, you already lost. And no, for every class their biggest survivability tool is either evade, or invuln.It was, basically you had 10 skill to evade should they be telegraphed. Now if we can get out of war because it's not the point.

No, they have he more x actions and passive effect tools of every class that's why they get the most umpacted when anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action.

Not much to say here except "youre wrong". They dont. The reason they were impacted the most was not because "anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action." (first of all, they didnt. Most condi skills still do a bunch of things at once. Second as I have explained,

those skills arent why Warrior sucks

). The reason they were impacted the most is because their damage was hit harder than average and they were already not as powerful.Lol ? Did you want to talk about mesmer damage reduction then come back about whose damage was gut the most ?

Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.

Always with these "oh 3 actions on hit!!1!!1!". The number of things a skill can do shouldnt be limited. And no, highly telegraphed

absolutely

justifies high damage and additional effects. Else, again, you get this garbage meta.IT SHOULD, I know there is plethora of kids who find fun killing opponent who has to do 10 more clics/ sec than him drink coffee with one hand but it's not healthy at all.Then there was too much efficientcy differences for the same telegraph between classes.

How many time did this happen.

Several times. Other times they fought each other for 7+ minutes without either ever dying. HEre is the better question. How often did those kinds of 1v1 lead to either of them dying within 7 minutes? The answer is never.Yeah before you just "dance" out of point because of the damage or running away on the map.

It has nothing to do with global balance orientation but wih few class tweak.

Its absolutely global balance. Almost every class can create a build like that. A build that just almost doesnt die because damage right now is too low outside of condi, and condi just has cleanses and resistance to deal with.The damage pressure open bunch of new builds who can be played instead of the 4 pre-patch.

No, prepatch was always the same things for ages.

Yes. The same thing. Fights long enough for everything to come up several times and for rotations and combos to be done, but not so long that you forsake those and just spam everything off CD like you do right now.

I think I found the problem

: you have to time if you want to kill someone, that's explain why you think we are in a tank meta. You can do it, just train.

Agains this discussion was about the rework not about warrior being op. It wasn't pre patch ofc.But ot has a bunch of 3 in 1 tools.

Despite your obsession with "3 in 1", as I have explained several times, thats not why Warrior sucks.It is.

Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.

Yeah. Because as it turns out, lowering damage so much you cant kill anyone hurts you. Given that it was consistently considered the most fair and fun to face class, there was no reason to remove it.I met a warrior healing me 4k recently, new build coming ?

Man it's crazy how the bunch of perma whiner on this forum jump on everything out of context.To make it clear I take it as an example who can apply to every class before each people here do wall of text defending war.And your most fun fair class did most of his damage with spamming unblocable evade at high level.

Except it didnt. Im starting to notice you havent got a clue about Warrior. I guess that explains why you write so much nonsense.Or you can continue whinning to get your easy build back while not adapting.

Yeah this is also called FPS games like CS.Is this ... supposed to be a counterargument? CS is a good competitive game. As opposed to Overwatch, which is closer to current Guild Wars 2 status, and seen as a pretty bad one.Not really, it's nice that every game aren't all the same from a gamer view, particulary when the base gameplay is far to promote the same as other game (I always said raids should never exist in gw2 for example.).

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I'm the epitome of biased.I started maining warrior after thief even tho thief was more meta.I personally dislike fighting mesmers but want them buffed or reworked cuz I genuinely hate that a lot of player dont like how the class feels for what imo are legitimate reasons and the game we all like lost players because of it, not the only example either.I like ranger a lot and have a lot of play time on mine. I asked for druid love and slb nerfs and was ok with losing pet swap and with pet nerfs.I like rev and have been playing it or was playing it often and I've stated condi rev needs nerfs and power rev needs only slight shaves.I've spoke about and against all burn builds and believe per tic it's one of the offenders and asked for burning to be nerfed and those builds relying on the op condition to see love on other areas for compensation.Thief my main behind war I've asked for invisibility duration caps and or other healthier approaches to stealth.Yeah I've asked for nerfs I thought were truly justified, spoke up against nerfs to classes I've played as we all have cuz some are just lolz and I've asked for buffs in areas I thought were legitimate.I do have some bias as we all do but I'm far from being the bias monster ur post depicts there arhund.

[UNOwen.7132]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:

Hi we found someone who like to split things out of context.Welcome.We don't nerf spellbreaker because of chrono but telegraphed skills should bot necessary have 5k damage tied in it.

A telegraphed skill needs to have a huge effect tied to it. Otherwise, mistakes dont matter and you can screw up repeatedly and not get punished for it. That way, you get a meta like right now. An awful,

awful

meta.What If someone have only telegraphed skills who kill you if it hit while you have 4 evade/block ? => you know you will get killed so you don't even fight.Then the problem is when for the same telegraph, the effect greatly vary between class.

Then, if youre good enough, you enjoy the free win. Evades and blocks are not the only way to stop telegraphed skills. You also have blinds, interrupts, simply going out of range, LoS-ing, to a lesser degree weakness, protection, barrier, healing and the list goes on and on and on. Though that is if such a hypothetical class would exist, it doesnt, so thats a moot point anyway.

They have the option to brain you by not using this combo and use another skills who did 4k +. Btw their main damage at high level was unblocable evade in their golden time.

Those other skills were

also

telegraphed and avoidable. And nah, the evade, while decent, was never their main damage. 1.5 is not that high a scaling.

You don't get it I'm not complaining about warrior but about the fact that they have other particularity than throwing 4k every single attack.And apart thief and weaver. Most class rely on block.I have no idea what youre saying with the first sentence. If you meant "They throw 4k every single attack", then that is simply completely 100% wrong. If thats the basis of your argument, you already lost. And no, for every class their biggest survivability tool is either evade, or invuln.It was, basically you had 10 skill to evade should they be telegraphed. Now if we can get out of war because it's not the point.

Or interrupt. Or move out of the range, or, or, or. There is a reason warrior was considered the most fair and most fun class to fight, and thats because there was a lot of counterplay.

No, they have he more x actions and passive effect tools of every class that's why they get the most umpacted when anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action.

Not much to say here except "youre wrong". They dont. The reason they were impacted the most was not because "anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action." (first of all, they didnt. Most condi skills still do a bunch of things at once. Second as I have explained,

those skills arent why Warrior sucks

). The reason they were impacted the most is because their damage was hit harder than average and they were already not as powerful.Lol ? Did you want to talk about mesmer damage reduction then come back about whose damage was gut the most ?

Who was talking about Mesmer damage reduction?

Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.

Always with these "oh 3 actions on hit!!1!!1!". The number of things a skill can do shouldnt be limited. And no, highly telegraphed

absolutely

justifies high damage and additional effects. Else, again, you get this garbage meta.IT SHOULD, I know there is plethora of kids who find fun killing opponent who has to do 10 more clics/ sec than him drink coffee with one hand but it's not healthy at all.Then there was too much efficientcy differences for the same telegraph between classes.

Again, it SHOULDNT. Here is what you get when you limit it. Telegraphed skills become bad (because why use a telegraphed skill when a not telegraphed one is just as good). Skill deteriorates as everyone just spams non-telegraphed skills and concepts like timing become a thing of the past. But let me perhaps hammer the point why that logic is idiotic home. Im playing Core Grenade Engineer. I have to press approximately 4 times as many buttons as whatever class you are playing to accomplish the same thing. Does that mean I want everyone else to perform worse, or to have to press as many buttons as I do?

Of course not. If you do the former, then I just win without a challenge. What would ever be interesting about that? If you do the latter, then the reason I play Nade Engi, the reason its special, goes away, as everyone is basically the same. There is a reason why "number of inputs", or even "difficulty" is not even a factor in balancing for any dev worth their salt. There is a reason Carl isnt baseline better than Ragna, just because he is much harder and has to press more buttons. Why Ryu isnt underpowered just because he is easy.

How many time did this happen.

Several times. Other times they fought each other for 7+ minutes without either ever dying. HEre is the better question. How often did those kinds of 1v1 lead to either of them dying within 7 minutes? The answer is never.Yeah before you just "dance" out of point because of the damage or running away on the map.

Except that didnt happen. Sure, you ran away from fights you would lose, but you still do that. That hasnt changed. You just fought, and people could actually die.

It has nothing to do with global balance orientation but wih few class tweak.

Its absolutely global balance. Almost every class can create a build like that. A build that just almost doesnt die because damage right now is too low outside of condi, and condi just has cleanses and resistance to deal with.The damage pressure open bunch of new builds who can be played instead of the 4 pre-patch.

Except Id argue we are seeing fewer meta builds than before. Before the patch, all classes were viable, and most elite specs were. Now? Warrior and Mesmer arenon-existent, and for most classes only 1 elite spec is viable. Necro and Thief being just about the only exception. Oh and you better like playing bunkers, because almost everyone is forced to play bunkers. It reduced the total number of viable builds. Sure, its nice that Tempest is back, but we lost Weaver for it, and god knows how much else.

No, prepatch was always the same things for ages.

Yes. The same thing. Fights long enough for everything to come up several times and for rotations and combos to be done, but not so long that you forsake those and just spam everything off CD like you do right now.

I think I found the problem

: you have to time if you want to kill someone, that's explain why you think we are in a tank meta. You can do it, just train.

Hahahahaha, no. You dont. There is no point timing, because what exactly are you going to time? Mistakes cant be punished, and damage is low. You just spam everything other than defensive skills off-cooldown, because thats just about the only way you would even have enough damage to kill them. But again, there is a reason we saw people in the MOTA dance, or fight each other for 7+ minutes without anyone dying.

Agains this discussion was about the rework not about warrior being op. It wasn't pre patch ofc.But ot has a bunch of 3 in 1 tools.

Despite your obsession with "3 in 1", as I have explained several times, thats not why Warrior sucks.It is.

Dont talk about classes you dont understand. The reason Warrior sucks is that the damage is just far too low, as is survivability. Its as simple as that. Greatsword is barely holding on, but Dagger is just way too far behind. Its practically impossible to kill classes fast as is, but for Warrior, they cant even outpace the enemy healing with their damage. And of course, they cant survive for 7 minutes of fighting either, so thats not an option either. Rampage, and Bull Rush, theyre nerfs that mattered, but not really that much.

Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.

Yeah. Because as it turns out, lowering damage so much you cant kill anyone hurts you. Given that it was consistently considered the most fair and fun to face class, there was no reason to remove it.I met a warrior healing me 4k recently, new build coming ?

What are you talking about?

Man it's crazy how the bunch of perma whiner on this forum jump on everything out of context.To make it clear I take it as an example who can apply to every class before each people here do wall of text defending war.And your most fun fair class did most of his damage with spamming unblocable evade at high level.

Except it didnt. Im starting to notice you havent got a clue about Warrior. I guess that explains why you write so much nonsense.Or you can continue whinning to get your easy build back while not adapting.

Mate, I havent even played Warrior pre-patch. Ive been playing nothing but Core Grenade Engineer. Which spoiler: Far harder to play than anything you got. So your ad hominem backfires entirely. You just want to continue whining so the matchup you are too bad to deal with doesnt come back. Or whatever you would say. I dont really know, nor care. Fact is, this patch, this meta, is garbage.

Yeah this is also called FPS games like CS.Is this ... supposed to be a counterargument? CS is a good competitive game. As opposed to Overwatch, which is closer to current Guild Wars 2 status, and seen as a pretty bad one.Not really, it's nice that every game aren't all the same from a gamer view, particulary when the base gameplay is far to promote the same as other game (I always said raids should never exist in gw2 for example.).

Even with different games, some things are universal truths. For example, you NEVER balance around difficulty or "number of buttons pressed". Practically no game in the world does it, and the few that do are universally considered some of the worst designed and balanced games ever made. And of course, when damage is low and mistakes cant be punished ,you get boring games. That too is a universal truth, and the reason why TF2 or Gigantic or even Apex worked, but Overwatch didnt.

[viquing.8254]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:

Hi we found someone who like to split things out of context.Welcome.We don't nerf spellbreaker because of chrono but telegraphed skills should bot necessary have 5k damage tied in it.

A telegraphed skill needs to have a huge effect tied to it. Otherwise, mistakes dont matter and you can screw up repeatedly and not get punished for it. That way, you get a meta like right now. An awful,

awful

meta.What If someone have only telegraphed skills who kill you if it hit while you have 4 evade/block ? => you know you will get killed so you don't even fight.Then the problem is when for the same telegraph, the effect greatly vary between class.

Then, if youre good enough, you enjoy the free win. Evades and blocks are not the only way to stop telegraphed skills. You also have blinds, interrupts, simply going out of range, LoS-ing, to a lesser degree weakness, protection, barrier, healing and the list goes on and on and on. Though that is if such a hypothetical class would exist, it doesnt, so thats a moot point anyway.Yeah and you can kie with cripple, ho wait...

They have the option to brain you by not using this combo and use another skills who did 4k +. Btw their main damage at high level was unblocable evade in their golden time.

Those other skills were

also

telegraphed and avoidable. And nah, the evade, while decent, was never their main damage. 1.5 is not that high a scaling.

You don't get it I'm not complaining about warrior but about the fact that they have other particularity than throwing 4k every single attack.And apart thief and weaver. Most class rely on block.I have no idea what youre saying with the first sentence. If you meant "They throw 4k every single attack", then that is simply completely 100% wrong. If thats the basis of your argument, you already lost. And no, for every class their biggest survivability tool is either evade, or invuln.It was, basically you had 10 skill to evade should they be telegraphed. Now if we can get out of war because it's not the point.

Or interrupt. Or move out of the range, or, or, or. There is a reason warrior was considered the most fair and most fun class to fight, and thats because there was a lot of counterplay.I surely miss the plot about the fairest class. You can take your reasons where I think they should be.

No, they have he more x actions and passive effect tools of every class that's why they get the most umpacted when anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action.

Not much to say here except "youre wrong". They dont. The reason they were impacted the most was not because "anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action." (first of all, they didnt. Most condi skills still do a bunch of things at once. Second as I have explained,

those skills arent why Warrior sucks

). The reason they were impacted the most is because their damage was hit harder than average and they were already not as powerful.Lol ? Did you want to talk about mesmer damage reduction then come back about whose damage was gut the most ?

Who was talking about Mesmer damage reduction?You thinking warrior hit like a noddle ?

Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.

Always with these "oh 3 actions on hit!!1!!1!". The number of things a skill can do shouldnt be limited. And no, highly telegraphed

absolutely

justifies high damage and additional effects. Else, again, you get this garbage meta.IT SHOULD, I know there is plethora of kids who find fun killing opponent who has to do 10 more clics/ sec than him drink coffee with one hand but it's not healthy at all.Then there was too much efficientcy differences for the same telegraph between classes.

Again, it SHOULDNT. Here is what you get when you limit it. Telegraphed skills become bad (because why use a telegraphed skill when a not telegraphed one is just as good). Skill deteriorates as everyone just spams non-telegraphed skills and concepts like timing become a thing of the past. But let me perhaps hammer the point why that logic is idiotic home. Im playing Core Grenade Engineer. I have to press approximately 4 times as many buttons as whatever class you are playing to accomplish the same thing. Does that mean I want everyone else to perform worse, or to have to press as many buttons as I do?

Of course not. If you do the former, then I just win without a challenge. What would ever be interesting about that? If you do the latter, then the reason I play Nade Engi, the reason its special, goes away, as everyone is basically the same. There is a reason why "number of inputs", or even "difficulty" is not even a factor in balancing for any dev worth their salt. There is a reason Carl isnt baseline better than Ragna, just because he is much harder and has to press more buttons. Why Ryu isnt underpowered just because he is easy.Where things derails if when the said kiddies rage about others.

How many time did this happen.

Several times. Other times they fought each other for 7+ minutes without either ever dying. HEre is the better question. How often did those kinds of 1v1 lead to either of them dying within 7 minutes? The answer is never.Yeah before you just "dance" out of point because of the damage or running away on the map.

Except that didnt happen. Sure, you ran away from fights you would lose, but you still do that. That hasnt changed. You just fought, and people could actually die.And again I prefer fight than running on amap with 15 %HP, 75% of my time.

It has nothing to do with global balance orientation but wih few class tweak.

Its absolutely global balance. Almost every class can create a build like that. A build that just almost doesnt die because damage right now is too low outside of condi, and condi just has cleanses and resistance to deal with.The damage pressure open bunch of new builds who can be played instead of the 4 pre-patch.Even facing nec, rev or tank gard they still die, dunno where did you see your immortal players.Except Id argue we are seeing

fewer

meta builds than before. Before the patch, all classes were viable, and most elite specs were. Now? Warrior and Mesmer arenon-existent, and for most classes only 1 elite spec is viable. Necro and Thief being just about the only exception. Oh and you better like playing bunkers, because almost everyone is forced to play bunkers. It reduced the total number of viable builds. Sure, its nice that Tempest is back, but we lost Weaver for it, and god knows how much else.I can play 3 mes spec, rev, gard, nec too, many other has 2. little has 1 globally there is more playable things we meet when playing.

No, prepatch was always the same things for ages.

Yes. The same thing. Fights long enough for everything to come up several times and for rotations and combos to be done, but not so long that you forsake those and just spam everything off CD like you do right now.

I think I found the problem

: you have to time if you want to kill someone, that's explain why you think we are in a tank meta. You can do it, just train.

Hahahahaha, no. You dont. There is no point timing, because what exactly are you going to time? Mistakes cant be punished, and damage is low. You just spam everything other than defensive skills off-cooldown, because thats just about the only way you would even have enough damage to kill them. But again, there is a reason we saw people in the MOTA dance, or fight each other for 7+ minutes without anyone dying.Rupt heal to begin with, a nec can have 3 health bar if you rupt every heal he will die.

Agains this discussion was about the rework not about warrior being op. It wasn't pre patch ofc.But ot has a bunch of 3 in 1 tools.

Despite your obsession with "3 in 1", as I have explained several times, thats not why Warrior sucks.It is.

Dont talk about classes you dont understand. The reason Warrior sucks is that the damage is just far too low, as is survivability. Its as simple as that. Greatsword is barely holding on, but Dagger is just way too far behind. Its practically impossible to kill classes fast as is, but for Warrior, they cant even outpace the enemy healing with their damage. And of course, they cant survive for 7 minutes of fighting either, so thats not an option either. Rampage, and Bull Rush, theyre nerfs that mattered, but not really that much.Don't talk about balance when you are tunnelvisionning in one class discussion.

Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.

Yeah. Because as it turns out, lowering damage so much you cant kill anyone hurts you. Given that it was consistently considered the most fair and fun to face class, there was no reason to remove it.I met a warrior healing me 4k recently, new build coming ?

What are you talking about?I'm talking about some warriors trying news things apart just doing damage.

Man it's crazy how the bunch of perma whiner on this forum jump on everything out of context.To make it clear I take it as an example who can apply to every class before each people here do wall of text defending war.And your most fun fair class did most of his damage with spamming unblocable evade at high level.

Except it didnt. Im starting to notice you havent got a clue about Warrior. I guess that explains why you write so much nonsense.Or you can continue whinning to get your easy build back while not adapting.

Mate, I havent even played Warrior pre-patch. Ive been playing nothing but Core Grenade Engineer. Which spoiler: Far harder to play than anything you got. So your ad hominem backfires entirely. You just want to continue whining so the matchup you are too bad to deal with doesnt come back. Or whatever you would say. I dont really know, nor care. Fact is, this patch, this meta, is garbage.Nop it isn't and it will not be more or less gargbage by trying to spampush your view on forum.

Yeah this is also called FPS games like CS.Is this ... supposed to be a counterargument? CS is a good competitive game. As opposed to Overwatch, which is closer to current Guild Wars 2 status, and seen as a pretty bad one.Not really, it's nice that every game aren't all the same from a gamer view, particulary when the base gameplay is far to promote the same as other game (I always said raids should never exist in gw2 for example.).

Even with different games, some things are universal truths. For example, you

NEVER

balance around difficulty or "number of buttons pressed". Practically no game in the world does it, and the few that do are universally considered some of the worst designed and balanced games ever made. And of course, when damage is low and mistakes cant be punished ,you get boring games. That too is a universal truth, and the reason why TF2 or Gigantic or even Apex worked, but Overwatch didnt.

Lol ? The most competitive game should it be FPS, combat, racing have exatly the same result for the same buttons pushed. Very few distinguish after with the combo who follow. But you never had one player smashing 2 times more damage per action than other. When you spend all you life running away low life you get boring games too.

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

Hi we found someone who like to split things out of context.Welcome.We don't nerf spellbreaker because of chrono but telegraphed skills should bot necessary have 5k damage tied in it.

A telegraphed skill needs to have a huge effect tied to it. Otherwise, mistakes dont matter and you can screw up repeatedly and not get punished for it. That way, you get a meta like right now. An awful,

awful

meta.What If someone have only telegraphed skills who kill you if it hit while you have 4 evade/block ? => you know you will get killed so you don't even fight.Then the problem is when for the same telegraph, the effect greatly vary between class.

Then, if youre good enough, you enjoy the free win. Evades and blocks are not the only way to stop telegraphed skills. You also have blinds, interrupts, simply going out of range, LoS-ing, to a lesser degree weakness, protection, barrier, healing and the list goes on and on and on. Though that is if such a hypothetical class would exist, it doesnt, so thats a moot point anyway.Yeah and you can kie with cripple, ho wait...

Just out of curiosity, you do know that Warrior only has 1 cripple skill in its played builds, right? And its a pretty slow and telegraphed one, Bladetrail. So yeah, Warrior cant really kite with cripple. Ignoring the fact that most melee classes shrug off crippled anyway.

They have the option to brain you by not using this combo and use another skills who did 4k +. Btw their main damage at high level was unblocable evade in their golden time.

Those other skills were

also

telegraphed and avoidable. And nah, the evade, while decent, was never their main damage. 1.5 is not that high a scaling.

You don't get it I'm not complaining about warrior but about the fact that they have other particularity than throwing 4k every single attack.And apart thief and weaver. Most class rely on block.I have no idea what youre saying with the first sentence. If you meant "They throw 4k every single attack", then that is simply completely 100% wrong. If thats the basis of your argument, you already lost. And no, for every class their biggest survivability tool is either evade, or invuln.It was, basically you had 10 skill to evade should they be telegraphed. Now if we can get out of war because it's not the point.

Or interrupt. Or move out of the range, or, or, or. There is a reason warrior was considered the most fair and most fun class to fight, and thats because there was a lot of counterplay.I surely miss the plot about the farest class. You can take your reasons where I think they should be.

Once again, I have no idea what youre trying to say.

No, they have he more x actions and passive effect tools of every class that's why they get the most umpacted when anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action.

Not much to say here except "youre wrong". They dont. The reason they were impacted the most was not because "anet want to make 1 skill do 1 action." (first of all, they didnt. Most condi skills still do a bunch of things at once. Second as I have explained,

those skills arent why Warrior sucks

). The reason they were impacted the most is because their damage was hit harder than average and they were already not as powerful.Lol ? Did you want to talk about mesmer damage reduction then come back about whose damage was gut the most ?

Who was talking about Mesmer damage reduction?You thinking warrior hit like a noddle ?

Given that they are, yes? Dagger straight up has no skill doing any amount of damage that isnt laughable. Greatsword fares better, but not by much. There are pretty much only 2 skills Warrior has access to that do decent damage. Hundred blades, and Arcing Slice. The former requires them to be CCd without any stunbreaks or defense (in which case, theyre just dead in general), so you pretty much have just arcing slice. One skill. And if they avoid it, well, youre screwed.

Again the point was about high telegraphed didn't justify 3 actions on hit + high damage on every clics.

Always with these "oh 3 actions on hit!!1!!1!". The number of things a skill can do shouldnt be limited. And no, highly telegraphed

absolutely

justifies high damage and additional effects. Else, again, you get this garbage meta.IT SHOULD, I know there is plethora of kids who find fun killing opponent who has to do 10 more clics/ sec than him drink coffee with one hand but it's not healthy at all.Then there was too much efficientcy differences for the same telegraph between classes.

Again, it SHOULDNT. Here is what you get when you limit it. Telegraphed skills become bad (because why use a telegraphed skill when a not telegraphed one is just as good). Skill deteriorates as everyone just spams non-telegraphed skills and concepts like timing become a thing of the past. But let me perhaps hammer the point why that logic is idiotic home. Im playing Core Grenade Engineer. I have to press approximately 4 times as many buttons as whatever class you are playing to accomplish the same thing. Does that mean I want everyone else to perform worse, or to have to press as many buttons as I do?

Of course not. If you do the former, then I just win without a challenge. What would ever be interesting about that? If you do the latter, then the reason I play Nade Engi, the reason its special, goes away, as everyone is basically the same. There is a reason why "number of inputs", or even "difficulty" is not even a factor in balancing for any dev worth their salt. There is a reason Carl isnt baseline better than Ragna, just because he is much harder and has to press more buttons. Why Ryu isnt underpowered just because he is easy.Where things derails if when the said kiddies rage about others.

Let me rephrase what you said. "I realise that your arguments is solid and I have absolutely no counterpoint, so I will try to deflect in a very poor way making clear that I realised Im wrong but have no response". The only "kiddy" here is you, who rages against good design.

How many time did this happen.

Several times. Other times they fought each other for 7+ minutes without either ever dying. HEre is the better question. How often did those kinds of 1v1 lead to either of them dying within 7 minutes? The answer is never.Yeah before you just "dance" out of point because of the damage or running away on the map.

Except that didnt happen. Sure, you ran away from fights you would lose, but you still do that. That hasnt changed. You just fought, and people could actually die.And again I prefer fight than running on amap with 15 %, 75% of my time.

If you were at 15% hp 75% of the time, then you were simply bad. I guess its no surprise then that you favour the meta where you can keep making mistake after mistake and not be punished. Where fights never end unless outnumbered.

It has nothing to do with global balance orientation but wih few class tweak.

Its absolutely global balance. Almost every class can create a build like that. A build that just almost doesnt die because damage right now is too low outside of condi, and condi just has cleanses and resistance to deal with.The damage pressure open bunch of new builds who can be played instead of the 4 pre-patch.Even facing nec, rev or tank gard they still die, dunno where did you see your immortal players.Except Id argue we are seeing

fewer

meta builds than before. Before the patch, all classes were viable, and most elite specs were. Now? Warrior and Mesmer arenon-existent, and for most classes only 1 elite spec is viable. Necro and Thief being just about the only exception. Oh and you better like playing bunkers, because almost everyone is forced to play bunkers. It reduced the total number of viable builds. Sure, its nice that Tempest is back, but we lost Weaver for it, and god knows how much else.I can play 3 mes spec, rev, gard, nec too, many other has 2. little has 1 globally there is more playable things we meet when playing.

And I can tell you, all of the mesmer specs are non-viable. Theyre worse than even my core nade engineer. Here is the funny thing. All of the things you mention were either just as, or more viable pre-patch. There were far more good builds. Now? Not so much.

No, prepatch was always the same things for ages.

Yes. The same thing. Fights long enough for everything to come up several times and for rotations and combos to be done, but not so long that you forsake those and just spam everything off CD like you do right now.

I think I found the problem

: you have to time if you want to kill someone, that's explain why you think we are in a tank meta. You can do it, just train.

Hahahahaha, no. You dont. There is no point timing, because what exactly are you going to time? Mistakes cant be punished, and damage is low. You just spam everything other than defensive skills off-cooldown, because thats just about the only way you would even have enough damage to kill them. But again, there is a reason we saw people in the MOTA dance, or fight each other for 7+ minutes without anyone dying.Rupt heal to begin with, a nec can have 3 health bar if you rupt every heal he will die.

I see you dont know Necro very well either. Nevermind that interrupting their heal doesnt even work because they will use it after fearing or CCing you. Or that they have plenty of healing besides their main healing skill. Or that interrupting it only puts it on a 5 second cooldown meaning they can try again shortly, and you wont ever kill them before you run out of interrupts. Or that they have plenty of healing sources outside of their active heal. Doesnt work.

Agains this discussion was about the rework not about warrior being op. It wasn't pre patch ofc.But ot has a bunch of 3 in 1 tools.

Despite your obsession with "3 in 1", as I have explained several times, thats not why Warrior sucks.It is.

Dont talk about classes you dont understand. The reason Warrior sucks is that the damage is just far too low, as is survivability. Its as simple as that. Greatsword is barely holding on, but Dagger is just way too far behind. Its practically impossible to kill classes fast as is, but for Warrior, they cant even outpace the enemy healing with their damage. And of course, they cant survive for 7 minutes of fighting either, so thats not an option either. Rampage, and Bull Rush, theyre nerfs that mattered, but not really that much.Don't talk about balance when you are tunnelvisionning in one class discussion.

Another attempt to deflect from your lack of knowledge.

Losing the ability to take away 40 % hp in one button impact it as well.

Yeah. Because as it turns out, lowering damage so much you cant kill anyone hurts you. Given that it was consistently considered the most fair and fun to face class, there was no reason to remove it.I met a warrior healing me 4k recently, new build coming ?

What are you talking about?I'm talking about some warriors trying news things apart just doing damage.

Yeah spoiler: People have been trying that for a while. Do you know why you dont see them often? Those builds are even worse. Support Warrior is Tempest with less damage, a fraction of the healing, utility, or CC. Its awful.

Man it's crazy how the bunch of perma whiner on this forum jump on everything out of context.To make it clear I take it as an example who can apply to every class before each people here do wall of text defending war.And your most fun fair class did most of his damage with spamming unblocable evade at high level.

Except it didnt. Im starting to notice you havent got a clue about Warrior. I guess that explains why you write so much nonsense.Or you can continue whinning to get your easy build back while not adapting.

Mate, I havent even played Warrior pre-patch. Ive been playing nothing but Core Grenade Engineer. Which spoiler: Far harder to play than anything you got. So your ad hominem backfires entirely. You just want to continue whining so the matchup you are too bad to deal with doesnt come back. Or whatever you would say. I dont really know, nor care. Fact is, this patch, this meta, is garbage.Nop it isn't and it will not be more or less gargbage by trying to spampush your view on forum.

Well I guess you dont know core grenade engineer either. But dont worry, your ignorance of the truth doesnt change the truth. It is harder than what you play. Quite a lot. So by your logic, you should shut up, no?

Yeah this is also called FPS games like CS.Is this ... supposed to be a counterargument? CS is a good competitive game. As opposed to Overwatch, which is closer to current Guild Wars 2 status, and seen as a pretty bad one.Not really, it's nice that every game aren't all the same from a gamer view, particulary when the base gameplay is far to promote the same as other game (I always said raids should never exist in gw2 for example.).

Even with different games, some things are universal truths. For example, you

NEVER

balance around difficulty or "number of buttons pressed". Practically no game in the world does it, and the few that do are universally considered some of the worst designed and balanced games ever made. And of course, when damage is low and mistakes cant be punished ,you get boring games. That too is a universal truth, and the reason why TF2 or Gigantic or even Apex worked, but Overwatch didnt.

Lol ? The most competitive game should it be FPS, combat, racing have exatly the same result for the same buttons pushed. Very few distinguish after with the combo who follow. But you never had one player smashing 2 times more damage per action than other. When you spend all you life running away low life you get boring games too.

I see understanding design isnt quite your strong suit. Let me explain why that is completely wrong. First of, "Same results for the same buttons pushed" means having just one character. That is a solved game. Solved games are not interesting. Second, no, it shouldnt. Because "the same button" can have very different impacts. Let me give you an example. Take a look at Es' 6C, and at Iron Tagers 6C in BBCF. In terms of Raw damage, Iron Tagers 6C does more than twice the damage. But there is a reason for that. Tagers 6C is slow. It has 28 frames of startup, compared to Es' 6Cs 17 frames. Whats more, Tagers 6C has a frame advantage of -18, while Es' has a frame advantage of -4. What this means is that Es' 6C is safe on block, as no move can start up faster than she has to recover, while Tagers is very unsafe on block. This is no different to the different level of impact based on telegraphs.

Also, as I have said before, if you were always running away low life, then that just means you kept making mistakes. But thats the point, mistakes have to be punishable, or the game gets boring and stale, and loses skill expression. If you played well however, then you would either kill the enemy, or if they were better than you, you would die. But thats good.

[Lighter.5631]

you know pvp more dead then ever when it takes 5+mins to Q pop with even soloq at only low plat 1 rating and matching you with gold 1, on prime time. season just started too. kewl

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Lighter.5631 said:you know pvp more dead then ever when it takes 5+mins to Q pop with even soloq at only low plat 1 rating and matching you with gold 1, on prime time. season just started too. kewl

Man the pop is tanked, even 2 seasons ago I was plat 1 solo q for a whole 4 days before sinking to gold and I swear during one of those days a player reconfirmed the mechanics of conquest.

[Senqu.8054]

I voted for yes because I thought the huge balance patch was just one of many many patches. My whole guild was online again :(. Now 4 month after the patch no one is online again and I regret my vote. What bothers me the most is the fact that they basically deleted traits with 2, 3 and 5 minutes CDs but didn’t replace them.

[viquing.8254]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Just out of curiosity, you do know that Warrior only has 1 cripple skill in its played builds, right? And its a pretty slow and telegraphed one, Bladetrail. So yeah, Warrior cant really kite with cripple. Ignoring the fact that most melee classes shrug off crippled anyway.Given that they are, yes? Dagger straight up has no skill doing any amount of damage that isnt laughable. Greatsword fares better, but not by much. There are pretty much only 2 skills Warrior has access to that do decent damage. Hundred blades, and Arcing Slice. The former requires them to be CCd without any stunbreaks or defense (in which case, theyre just dead in general), so you pretty much have just arcing slice. One skill. And if they avoid it, well, youre screwed.Just open a post about war if you want to only focus and discuss about an example taken on the overall pre patch discussion.

Let me rephrase what you said. "I realise that your arguments is solid and I have absolutely no counterpoint, so I will try to deflect in a very poor way making clear that I realised Im wrong but have no response". The only "kiddy" here is you, who rages against good design.Let me rephrase it more explicitly : you just want to rollface opponent by throwing half life bar each attack whiwh I don't find healthy.

And again I prefer fight than running on amap with 15 %, 75% of my time.

If you were at 15% hp 75% of the time, then you were simply bad. I guess its no surprise then that you favour the meta where you can keep making mistake after mistake and not be punished. Where fights never end unless outnumbered.Yeah again I'm pretty bad and being carried by build since launch, thanks.And every streamers who don't go into fight but spend time looking at range instead of fighting probably was.

I can play 3 mes spec, rev, gard, nec too, many other has 2. little has 1 globally there is more playable things we meet when playing.

And I can tell you, all of the mesmer specs are non-viable. Theyre worse than even my core nade engineer. Here is the funny thing. All of the things you mention were either just as, or

more

viable pre-patch. There were far more good builds. Now? Not so much.You have to chose between :1) I'm a noob being carried to p3 thanks to build.2) all mesmers spec are non-viable and I'm good enough to go p3.

Same for many build who aren't in metabattle on other class.Some incompatibility here.

I see you dont know Necro very well either. Nevermind that interrupting their heal doesnt even work because they will use it after fearing or CCing you. Or that they have plenty of healing besides their main healing skill. Or that interrupting it only puts it on a 5 second cooldown meaning they can try again shortly, and you wont ever kill them before you run out of interrupts. Or that they have plenty of healing sources outside of their active heal. Doesnt work.OMG, we have another egocentric guy who know all the game while nobody get a point on it...You clear fear, you anticipate when they will heal as much as they will try to cover it, that's what make the game interesting.

Don't talk about balance when you are tunnelvisionning in one class discussion.

Another attempt to deflect from your lack of knowledge.Or to hide yours.

I'm talking about some warriors trying news things apart just doing damage.

Yeah spoiler: People have been trying that for a while. Do you know why you dont see them often? Those builds are even worse. Support Warrior is Tempest with less damage, a fraction of the healing, utility, or CC. Its awful.Spoiler : which have more window after patch than before.

Well I guess you dont know core grenade engineer either. But dont worry, your ignorance of the truth doesnt change the truth. It is harder than what you play. Quite a lot. So by your logic, you should shut up, no?I already faced this kind of guys who was all about burst or die. And no, I will not shut up because :1) I have the right to post here.2) You didn't have the abosulute truth.3) You didn't know the game better than me.

Now if you want to go on a ego battle here I'm all yours. I kinda love posting here discussing with some players like you.

I see understanding design isnt quite your strong suit. Let me explain why that is completely wrong. First of, "Same results for the same buttons pushed" means having just one character. That is a solved game. Solved games are not interesting. Second, no, it shouldnt. Because "the same button" can have very different impacts. Let me give you an example. Take a look at Es' 6C, and at Iron Tagers 6C in BBCF. In terms of Raw damage, Iron Tagers 6C does more than twice the damage. But there is a reason for that. Tagers 6C is slow. It has 28 frames of startup, compared to Es' 6Cs 17 frames. Whats more, Tagers 6C has a frame advantage of -18, while Es' has a frame advantage of -4. What this means is that Es' 6C is safe on block, as no move can start up faster than she has to recover, while Tagers is very unsafe on block. This is no different to the different level of impact based on telegraphs.Wtf with this example, take SF or MC.Also, as I have said before, if you were always running away low life, then that just means you kept making mistakes. But thats the point, mistakes have to be punishable, or the game gets boring and stale, and loses skill expression. If you played well however, then you would either kill the enemy, or if they were better than you, you would die. But thats good.Yeah or it mean that some class could do high pressure with every action while other has less sustain and output.Mistakes are punishable. There is more than 15 kills overall in each of my game which is no that bad considering game duration.

[Lighter.5631]

n we > @viquing.8254 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Anyway I barely play the game anymore so this stuff effects u guys more than I:).But I also could care less vanq what u think, if I play war post patch and feel that its weak in comparison to other classes I play and find it now less fun to play that's my deal, how u feel doesnt effect how war feels to me but when pretty much all war mains feel the same as me and hearing vallun,noody, happyno, mighty teapot and sindrener all state war is weak post patch I'm inclined to think I'm on to something where as ur opinion holds literally no weight or backing so.....

Ofc war is weak because what I said about skill who did 3 things per clics.Ofc it's not fun to not 2 shot people anymore by spamming the same combo forever.

Thief prepatch had a ladder representation more than enjoyable, understand the "fun" fact of playing something with diversity and highly represented.

If you can't understand how pushing a button who did 5k + 3 sec hard CC + Mobility + evade versus class who had to push 4 buttons for it isn't healthy I will write it simple for you : the less action you have to do for the same result, the easier it is.

About war, you are right, every skills are predictable, they just throwed way more "predictable" 5k+ (and sometimes CC and/or evade tied in it) than you can counter. Mean duelling boyce or goku to see in log that his main damage came from 8k unblocable evade or attacks with evade tied in it. Hmm you smell the skill...

Literally most high end players that streams competitions give their opinions about class they didn't even play. Just count the amount of time they say mesmers is op while not even being able to perform with it because their current class is way more carrying. But it's hard to admit.

Now warrior isn't in a good spot but it just need a "what this class gameplay is supossed to be" like mirage or chrono. Which has nothing to do with the rework as like everyone said when I say 'but this class can do it' : it's not because something it's bad design that you could use it. (=> argumentation on most mesmers nerfs.)

Now your opinion, like some other eternal whiners who always have to whine about something in this forum, has probably the same height you gave to my post.

Again u have to consider design of the class. If a class burst is highly telegraphed and predictable or its main burst in question is than yes its should be punishing to get hit by or it would not be effective. On the other hand if a class like thief for example requires couple more button presses the fact that it's less predictable and telegraphed makes up for the extra button presses. A class like war will always be more predictable and telegraphed than most classes or basic u could generally say and that wont change so if it is more predictable and has more telegraphed skills than most and requires same input to do same effect of classes that dont suffer the issues it will always feel inferior to play as it does now

I have doubts about the fact that a bullcharge + F1 combo under quickness launched in melee is obviously telegraphed but whatever.They have unblocable skills which mean that even if you know they will do something chance are high you can't counter it with your usual tempo. They are basically immune to cripple, can build to be very resistant to hard CC. I will not make 300 lines about war because I have basics knowledge on it but even by not poping 4k+ minimum each attacks they have strong particularity.They have to turn it more into teamfight than into duellist with atomic buttons full of passive effects IMO.It's all to anet to find what gameplay they want to give to them.

And what about chrono who has highly telegraphed skills but has no sustain or damage.... (Mean getting hit by grav well is the same obviousness to get hit by bullcharge and it didn't give evade to the mes. I didn't even talk about trahs other wells).

wait, what about berserker who has higher telegraphed skills and has worse sustain and worse damage? yes nerf spellbreaker because it was better then chrono, also nerf chrono because it's obviously better then berserker LOL, can we also nerf all mesmer spec because throw bola is so bad? tanks.

Hi we found someone who like to split things out of context.Welcome.We don't nerf spellbreaker because of chrono but telegraphed skills should bot necessary have 5k damage tied in it.

telegraphed skills should not have big effect? LMAO dudes out of his mind.

[Liewec.2896]

before, no contest.build diversity was murdered, as i expected the game became tank/condi meta.my favourite character was a hammer mace/shield warrior with a full utility bar of physical skills,i only played it in unranked because it wouldn't have been practical in competitive play, but it was a fun little niche,but Anet decided that such a niche unused weapon as hammer on warrior needed to be "smite-booned"...i've deleted that character now.

lets be honest, when was the last time you saw a warrior/guard using a hammer in pvp? even before the patch.Anet absolutely destroyed a weapon that noone was even using.a weapon that perhaps needed buffs was instead nerfed out of existence.

[viquing.8254]

@Lighter.5631 said:

Hi we found someone who like to split things out of context.Welcome.We don't nerf spellbreaker because of chrono but telegraphed skills should bot necessary have 5k damage tied in it.

telegraphed skills should not have big effect? LMAO dudes out of his mind.One more out of context things, congratulation, you continue to dig into the meanders of not having hindsight.We were talking about what is around thoses said telegraph but continue react on each word seraparly while not understanding the content behind. LMAO, this forum's always gold.

[Lighter.5631]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

Hi we found someone who like to split things out of context.Welcome.We don't nerf spellbreaker because of chrono but telegraphed skills should bot necessary have 5k damage tied in it.

telegraphed skills should not have big effect? LMAO dudes out of his mind.One more out of context things, congratulation, you continue to dig into the meanders of not having hindsight.We were talking about what is around thoses said telegraph but continue react on each word seraparly while not understanding the content behind. LMAO, this forum's always gold.

LOL dude, then tell me in which context telegraphed skills should not have big effect? im so eager to see whatever BS context you about to make up

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Just out of curiosity, you

do

know that Warrior only has 1 cripple skill in its played builds, right? And its a pretty slow and telegraphed one, Bladetrail. So yeah, Warrior cant really kite with cripple. Ignoring the fact that most melee classes shrug off crippled anyway.Given that they are, yes? Dagger straight up has no skill doing any amount of damage that isnt laughable. Greatsword fares better, but not by much. There are pretty much only 2 skills Warrior has access to that do decent damage. Hundred blades, and Arcing Slice. The former requires them to be CCd without any stunbreaks or defense (in which case, theyre just dead in general), so you pretty much have just arcing slice. One skill. And if they avoid it, well, youre screwed.Just open a post about war if you want to only focus and discuss about an example taken on the overall pre patch discussion.

Warrior is representative of the problems this patch caused, and the loss in diversity. We are of course going to include it in discussion.

Let me rephrase what you said. "I realise that your arguments is solid and I have absolutely no counterpoint, so I will try to deflect in a very poor way making clear that I realised Im wrong but have no response". The only "kiddy" here is you, who rages against good design.Let me rephrase it more explicitly : you just want to rollface opponent by throwing half life bar each attack whiwh I don't find healthy.

You really have no clue, huh? No, not every attack was "throwing half life bar". Some, very specific VERY TELEGRAPHED attacks were. And if you were trying to rollface, well you would instantly lose as the enemy just stops your telegraphed attacks and you are looking silly without any threat. If you want faceroll gameplay, its this patch that provides it. The pre-patch didnt have it.

And again I prefer fight than running on amap with 15 %, 75% of my time.

If you were at 15% hp 75% of the time, then you were simply bad. I guess its no surprise then that you favour the meta where you can keep making mistake after mistake and not be punished. Where fights never end unless outnumbered.Yeah again I'm pretty bad and being carried by build since launch, thanks.

Apparently so. Well, Im not sure about the second part. But at least youre honest.

And every streamers who don't go into fight but spend time looking at range instead of fighting probably was.

Yeah except, of course, that didnt happen. They fought. There is no reason to just sit at range doing nothing.

I can play 3 mes spec, rev, gard, nec too, many other has 2. little has 1 globally there is more playable things we meet when playing.

And I can tell you, all of the mesmer specs are non-viable. Theyre worse than even my core nade engineer. Here is the funny thing. All of the things you mention were either just as, or

more

viable pre-patch. There were far more good builds. Now? Not so much.You have to chose between :1) I'm a noob being carried to p3 thanks to build.2) all mesmers spec are non-viable and I'm good enough to go p3.

Given enough time and some variance, you can reach p3 even with a bad build. Hell, some of the Mesmer bots managed it, and theyre literally basic bots.

Same for many build who aren't in metabattle on other class.Some incompatibility here.

Not really. People played Urgot in challenger back in season 4 in League. He was still useless and the fourth-worst champion. Or third.

I see you dont know Necro very well either. Nevermind that interrupting their heal doesnt even work because they will use it after fearing or CCing you. Or that they have plenty of healing besides their main healing skill. Or that interrupting it only puts it on a 5 second cooldown meaning they can try again shortly, and you wont ever kill them before you run out of interrupts. Or that they have plenty of healing sources outside of their active heal. Doesnt work.OMG, we have another egocentric guy who know all the game while nobody get a point on it...You clear fear, you anticipate when they will heal as much as they will try to cover it, that's what make the game interesting.

Hahahaha, no. They wont heal until you cant clear the fear. Why would they, anyway? They have way too much health for you to be a threat until then. And no, it doenst make the game interesting, it (or rather the fact that that nice ideal scenario doesnt work) makes it boring. Its faceroll to the max.

Don't talk about balance when you are tunnelvisionning in one class discussion.

Another attempt to deflect from your lack of knowledge.Or to hide yours.

Im not deflecting though. So this comeback fails, it just makes clear you have no answer.

I'm talking about some warriors trying news things apart just doing damage.

Yeah spoiler: People have been trying that for a while. Do you know why you dont see them often? Those builds are even worse. Support Warrior is Tempest with less damage, a fraction of the healing, utility, or CC. Its awful.Spoiler : which have more window after patch than before.

Going from useless to useless, even if its an improvement, doesnt matter. But even so, thats not even true. If anything, those builds were better before the patch. Theyre even worse now.

Well I guess you dont know core grenade engineer either. But dont worry, your ignorance of the truth doesnt change the truth. It is harder than what you play. Quite a lot. So by your logic, you should shut up, no?I already faced this kind of guys who was all about burst or die. And no, I will not shut up because :

Thats not what Core Engineer is. Its a bursty class, but it has so much more beyond just that little burst. Thats where the difficulty comes in.

1) I have the right to post here.2) You didn't have the abosulute truth.3) You didn't know the game better than me.

On 2 and 3, I do actually. On 1, Im just using your logic.

Now if you want to go on a ego battle here I'm all yours. I kinda love posting here discussing with some players like you.

It has nothing to do with ego, Im just using your example against you.

I see understanding design isnt quite your strong suit. Let me explain why that is completely wrong. First of, "Same results for the same buttons pushed" means having just one character. That is a solved game. Solved games are not interesting. Second, no, it shouldnt. Because "the same button" can have very different impacts. Let me give you an example. Take a look at Es' 6C, and at Iron Tagers 6C in BBCF. In terms of Raw damage, Iron Tagers 6C does more than twice the damage. But there is a reason for that. Tagers 6C is

slow

. It has 28 frames of startup, compared to Es' 6Cs 17 frames. Whats more, Tagers 6C has a frame advantage of -18, while Es' has a frame advantage of -4. What this means is that Es' 6C is safe on block, as no move can start up faster than she has to recover, while Tagers is

very

unsafe on block. This is no different to the different level of impact based on telegraphs.kitten with this example, take SF or MC.

Im more familiar with BBCFs frame Data than SFs. Also, MC? Do you mean Mortal Kombat? If so, Mortal Kombat is pretty badly designed by fighting game standards, of course I wouldnt use it. But I see you have no answer to the example. On a sidenote, spoiler: Its no different with SF. Same buttons ,different results, because anything else makes no sense.

Also, as I have said before, if you were always running away low life, then that just means you kept making mistakes. But thats the point, mistakes have to be punishable, or the game gets boring and stale, and loses skill expression. If you played well however, then you would either kill the enemy, or if they were better than you, you would die. But thats good.Yeah or it mean that some class could do high pressure with every action while other has less sustain and output.

No? For one, those classes didnt exist, each of them had a downtime (or was condi which meant cleanses worked). Second, no, that simply wasnt the case, the difference between meta and not was a lot closer than it is now. If you were constantly at 15% hp, you were either getting outnumbered, in which case nothing has changed because being outnumbered will always do that, or you were a squishy build fighting another squishy build and constantly making mistakes you got punished for.

Mistakes are punishable. There is more than 15 kills overall in each of my game which is no that bad considering game duration.

Not really. The only "mistake" that is punishable is "being outnumbered", and thats not a mistake. You shouldnt ask "how many kills are there" ,but "how often does someone get a kill in an even fight". You will find the number to be shockingly low.

[viquing.8254]

@Lighter.5631 said:LOL dude, then tell me in which context telegraphed skills should not have big effect? im so eager to see whatever BS context you about to make upLOL dude, when you have more telegraphed skills than opponent have counter, when you have unblocage thing to land them, when you can reduce the telegraph with quickness/melee, when you have plethora os sustain, should I continue or you can't get something this simple ?

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Let me rephrase it more explicitly : you just want to rollface opponent by throwing half life bar each attack whiwh I don't find healthy.You really have no clue, huh? No, not

every

attack was "throwing half life bar". Some,

very specific

VERY TELEGRAPHED

attacks were. And if you were trying to rollface, well you would instantly lose as the enemy just stops your telegraphed attacks and you are looking silly without any threat. If you want faceroll gameplay, its

this

patch that provides it. The pre-patch didnt have it.Not at all, we went to hudge perma pressure with some even more spike to a normal output with only mind spike who can shutdown opponent.

And every streamers who don't go into fight but spend time looking at range instead of fighting probably was.

Yeah except, of course, that didnt happen. They fought. There is no reason to just sit at range doing nothing.Because after 10 sec in fight you have to resustain because of damage ?

Given enough time and some variance, you can reach p3 even with a bad build. Hell, some of the Mesmer bots managed it, and theyre literally basic bots.Just for curiosity, is it in NA ladder where mesmer bots reach p3 ?

I see you dont know Necro very well either. Nevermind that interrupting their heal doesnt even work because they will use it after fearing or CCing you. Or that they have plenty of healing besides their main healing skill. Or that interrupting it only puts it on a 5 second cooldown meaning they can try again shortly, and you wont ever kill them before you run out of interrupts. Or that they have plenty of healing sources outside of their active heal. Doesnt work.OMG, we have another egocentric guy who know all the game while nobody get a point on it...You clear fear, you anticipate when they will heal as much as they will try to cover it, that's what make the game interesting.

Hahahaha, no. They wont heal until you cant clear the fear. Why would they, anyway? They have way too much health for you to be a threat until then. And no, it doenst make the game interesting, it (or rather the fact that that nice ideal scenario doesnt work) makes it

boring

. Its faceroll to the max.It's not what I saw in game.

Or to hide yours.

Im not deflecting though. So this comeback fails, it just makes clear you have no answer.Because you have ?

I'm talking about some warriors trying news things apart just doing damage.

Yeah spoiler: People have been trying that for a while. Do you know why you dont see them often? Those builds are even worse. Support Warrior is Tempest with less damage, a fraction of the healing, utility, or CC. Its awful.Spoiler : which have more window after patch than before.

Going from useless to useless, even if its an improvement, doesnt matter. But even so, thats not even true. If anything, those builds were better before the patch. Theyre even worse now.I NEVER saw thoses builds before patch.Before patch there were same build and same class for ages.

Well I guess you dont know core grenade engineer either. But dont worry, your ignorance of the truth doesnt change the truth. It is harder than what you play. Quite a lot. So by your logic, you should shut up, no?I already faced this kind of guys who was all about burst or die. And no, I will not shut up because :

Thats not what Core Engineer is. Its a bursty class, but it has so much more beyond just that little burst. Thats where the difficulty comes in.

1) I have the right to post here.2) You didn't have the abosulute truth.3) You didn't know the game better than me.

On 2 and 3, I do actually. On 1, Im just using your logic.Yeah on 2 and 3 you are an egocentric guy with universal truth we already know this and you aren't alone in this forum.

Yeah or it mean that some class could do high pressure with every action while other has less sustain and output.

No? For one, those classes didnt exist, each of them had a downtime (or was condi which meant cleanses worked). Second, no, that simply wasnt the case, the difference between meta and not was a lot closer than it is now. If you were constantly at 15% hp, you were either getting outnumbered, in which case nothing has changed because being outnumbered will always do that, or you were a squishy build fighting another squishy build and constantly making mistakes you got punished for.What are you even talking about ?Did you meet renegade, tempest, core mesmers, DH, core gards and so on pre-patch ? Me not (You probably had more diversity in gold 1 though...).I even meet more core grenade engi than before after patch if you want to know.

[Hadi.3167]

PVP you do no damage, and need to rely on your team mates double teaming 1 guy. PVE the game is still the same just with stupid PVP mechanics like 1 ranger pet soul beast lol.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

The pvp is joke now in gw2, the population is a reflection of the gbage pvp this game has even during a pandemic with the most players stuck at home that this game will ever see lmao.The pvp literally consists of brainless zero skill condi spam with the addition of zero skill carry oh shit buttons to add to the gbage pile that is this game pvp right now lol ie oh I'm getting out played and almost dead bam sec hp or barrier among the other completely cheese mechanics that players jump on.I'll be suprised if pvp has a population of 200 by next yr.

[Hadi.3167]

oh and please don't forgetWho is leaving Anet next? The company is too incompetent.

[Hadi.3167]

Mind you they didn't even completely fix 1 shot builds which was the whole purpose of it. There's still skills that do insane amounts of damage , I.E Necro Lich form auto attacks , Grenades on Engineer , Assassin signet + Malicious Backstab on Thief. New players can't adapt. The patch was suppose to be for them, but this patch just felt like punishment for vet players now having to deal with an imbalanced game for 6 months.

[UNOwen.7132]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Lighter.5631" said:LOL dude, then tell me in which context telegraphed skills should not have big effect? im so eager to see whatever BS context you about to make upLOL dude, when you have more telegraphed skills than opponent have counter, when you have unblocage thing to land them, when you can reduce the telegraph with quickness/melee, when you have plethora os sustain, should I continue or you can't get something this simple ?

Nice theory. Such a deck never existed, so we cant verify it. But, its an easy thing to counter as well. "You can reduce the telegraph with quickness/melee" the latter makes no sense. The former means the quickness is the telegraph. So that doesnt work. Besides, the enemy has their own skills with telegraphs.

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Let me rephrase it more explicitly : you just want to rollface opponent by throwing half life bar each attack whiwh I don't find healthy.You really have no clue, huh? No, not

every

attack was "throwing half life bar". Some,

very specific

VERY TELEGRAPHED

attacks were. And if you were trying to rollface, well you would instantly lose as the enemy just stops your telegraphed attacks and you are looking silly without any threat. If you want faceroll gameplay, its

this

patch that provides it. The pre-patch didnt have it.Not at all, we went to hudge perma pressure with some even more spike to a normal output with only mind spike who can shutdown opponent.

No, we went from normal output with occasional larger spikes to pathetic levels of damage far lower than the previous lowest point in the games history. We went from a diverse, skillfull and fast-paced meta to a boring slow faceroll slog where if you dont outnumber the enemy, you dont kill them. Fun.

And every streamers who don't go into fight but spend time looking at range instead of fighting probably was.

Yeah except, of course, that didnt happen. They fought. There is no reason to just sit at range doing nothing.Because after 10 sec in fight you have to resustain because of damage ?

Sustain is constant, and the enemy wont let you just walk away without trying to hit you if you need to resustain. Plus, again, that didnt really happen. Most of the time fights lasted longer than 10 seconds unless you were bad.

Given enough time and some variance, you can reach p3 even with a bad build. Hell, some of the Mesmer bots managed it, and theyre literally basic bots.Just for curiosity, is it in NA ladder where mesmer bots reach p3 ?

Not a clue about NA, Im an EU player. But EU is better than NA, so shouldnt be much of a difference.

I see you dont know Necro very well either. Nevermind that interrupting their heal doesnt even work because they will use it after fearing or CCing you. Or that they have plenty of healing besides their main healing skill. Or that interrupting it only puts it on a 5 second cooldown meaning they can try again shortly, and you wont ever kill them before you run out of interrupts. Or that they have plenty of healing sources outside of their active heal. Doesnt work.OMG, we have another egocentric guy who know all the game while nobody get a point on it...You clear fear, you anticipate when they will heal as much as they will try to cover it, that's what make the game interesting.

Hahahaha, no. They wont heal until you cant clear the fear. Why would they, anyway? They have way too much health for you to be a threat until then. And no, it doenst make the game interesting, it (or rather the fact that that nice ideal scenario doesnt work) makes it

boring

. Its faceroll to the max.It's not what I saw in game.

Shrug. You seem to see a lot of mysterious and inexplicable thing. I cant really comment on those.

Or to hide yours.

Im not deflecting though. So this comeback fails, it just makes clear you have no answer.Because you have ?

I asked the question. Of course I dont have an answer to it, the point was to show that there is no answer.

I'm talking about some warriors trying news things apart just doing damage.

Yeah spoiler: People have been trying that for a while. Do you know why you dont see them often? Those builds are even worse. Support Warrior is Tempest with less damage, a fraction of the healing, utility, or CC. Its awful.Spoiler : which have more window after patch than before.

Going from useless to useless, even if its an improvement, doesnt matter. But even so, thats not even true. If anything, those builds were better before the patch. Theyre even worse now.I NEVER saw thoses builds before patch.

And I never saw them this patch. But I saw them pre-patch.Turns out with useless nearly unplayed builds there is too much variance to make any conclusive result, other than "theyre so bad theyre nearly unplayed".

Before patch there were same build and same class for ages.

Yeah, like thief, which went from Power S/D, to Daredevil D/P, to core Shadow Arts D/P to Shadow Arts DD D/P with a brief interlude of Staff. Or Warrior, which cycled through traitlines several times, and even had a brief window of Berserker being played. Or any of the other classes that changed a lot. Or the lineups that also all changed a lot. No instead the current version is much better, where we have had the same 5 classes being viable with only 3 build changes in the entire 4 month span since. Diversity went down the drain.

Well I guess you dont know core grenade engineer either. But dont worry, your ignorance of the truth doesnt change the truth. It is harder than what you play. Quite a lot. So by your logic, you should shut up, no?I already faced this kind of guys who was all about burst or die. And no, I will not shut up because :

Thats not what Core Engineer is. Its a bursty class, but it has so much more beyond just that little burst. Thats where the difficulty comes in.

1) I have the right to post here.2) You didn't have the abosulute truth.3) You didn't know the game better than me.

On 2 and 3, I do actually. On 1, Im just using your logic.Yeah on 2 and 3 you are an egocentric guy with universal truth we already know this and you aren't alone in this forum.

"Egocentric". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Yeah or it mean that some class could do high pressure with every action while other has less sustain and output.

No? For one, those classes didnt exist, each of them had a downtime (or was condi which meant cleanses worked). Second, no, that simply wasnt the case, the difference between meta and not was a lot closer than it is now. If you were constantly at 15% hp, you were either getting outnumbered, in which case nothing has changed because being outnumbered will always do that, or you were a squishy build fighting another squishy build and constantly making mistakes you got punished for.What are you even talking about ?Did you meet renegade, tempest, core mesmers, DH, core gards and so on pre-patch ? Me not (You probably had more diversity in gold 1 though...).

Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. The latter 3 were quite common, far more common than right now, the former 2 were weird builds. Counter-question: Have you seen Core Warrior, Berserker, Scourge, Scrapper, Weaver or even Deadeye? No, of course not. Even spellbreaker is basically vanished because of how useless it is.

I even meet more core grenade engi than before after patch if you want to know.

Its one of the few builds that got better. And I admit, I enjoy that. But the meta, and balance overall, has gone down the drain. Even at the cost of losing my precious build, Id prefer if we cut our losses and reverted most of this nonsense.

[Jasonbdj.4021]

It was horrible with the limted build options (all-in-builds like mesmer had or your dead).

Step 1 - select targetStep 2 - facerollStep 3 - if the target is not dead, run untill cool down then return to step1.end.

HP pool and toughtness was pointless, usually 2 mes of each team.

Mesmer has been gutted soo many times but the main problem was that every HP pool including nerco was not designed take that amount of damage.

Mesmer isnt that bad, you just have to play it right not faceroll like the pre-patch

Everything is gettin tune down, these hard to kill builds will get a hit soon.