Where are the trade offs of herald and holo?

[Shiyo.3578]

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Dragon hunter doesn't need a trade off just like tempest doesn't. The base class(f1-f5) skills of base ele and guardian are horrendous.

[Lighter.5631]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Dragon hunter doesn't need a trade off just like tempest doesn't. The base class(f1-f5) skills of base ele and guardian are horrendous.

? you just exampled to yourself why they need trade off

[Ragnar.4257]

@"Lighter.5631" said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

That..... that's the definition of a trade-off. Getting a bonus for one thing (unblockable) as compensation for another thing (range cut). That, that's a trade! You have traded unblockable for range.

Is English not your first language? "Trade-off" doesn't mean "make weaker", it just means "exchange one thing for another thing".

Whether or not you consider a trade-off to be stronger or weaker, is irrelevant. The trade is still there.

Easiest example is Core Necro vs Reaper. Reaper gives up Death-Shroud, in exchange for Reaper-Shroud. Whether you think Reaper-Shroud is stronger than Death-Shroud, or not, is irrelevant. The trade-off is there.

The example above with Reaper is actually the example ANet themselves used to explain what a trade-off is. If you don't think it counts, then, you're wrong. If you don't think that giving up Skill X to get Skill Y is a trade-off, you're wrong.

Trade(verb)to exchange something, or to stop using or doing something and start using or doing something else instead

Strictly speaking, the only elite-spec that doesn't give up anything from Core, and therefore the only one without a trade-off, is Tempest.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

[Shiyo.3578]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Dragon hunter doesn't need a trade off just like tempest doesn't. The base class(f1-f5) skills of base ele and guardian are horrendous.

? you just exampled to yourself why they need trade off

No, base ele needs to be buffed but base guardian has enough trait lines that are strong that base guardian builds are viable.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Lighter.5631" said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

That..... that's the definition of a trade-off. Getting a bonus for one thing (unblockable) as compensation for another thing (range cut). That, that's a trade! You have traded unblockable for range.

Is English not your first language? "Trade-off" doesn't mean "make weaker", it just means "exchange one thing for another thing".

Whether or not you consider a trade-off to be stronger or weaker, is irrelevant. The trade is still there.

Easiest example is Core Necro vs Reaper. Reaper gives up Death-Shroud, in exchange for Reaper-Shroud. Whether you think Reaper-Shroud is stronger than Death-Shroud, or not, is irrelevant. The trade-off is there.

The example above with Reaper is actually the example ANet themselves used to explain what a trade-off is. If you don't think it counts, then, you're wrong. If you don't think that giving up Skill X to get Skill Y is a trade-off, you're wrong.

Trade(verb)to exchange something, or to stop using or doing something and start using or doing something else instead

It's not a trade off when they're getting multiple things in exchange for one thing. You aren't just trading range on steal for unlockable. You're trading range on steal for unblockable, AND a third dodge bar and dodge rolls that are inherently superior to traditional dodge rolls. You're getting 3 things in exchange for 1.

That's not a trade. It's buy 1 get 2 free.

Deadeye should get -50% endurance generation on top of swipe losing unblockable. That would be a lot more even.

[bravan.3876]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

That..... that's the definition of a trade-off. Getting a bonus for one thing (unblockable) as compensation for another thing (range cut). That, that's a trade! You have traded unblockable for range.

Is English not your first language? "Trade-off" doesn't mean "make weaker", it just means "exchange one thing for another thing".

Whether or not you consider a trade-off to be stronger or weaker, is irrelevant. The trade is still there.

Easiest example is Core Necro vs Reaper. Reaper gives up Death-Shroud, in exchange for Reaper-Shroud. Whether you think Reaper-Shroud is stronger than Death-Shroud, or not, is irrelevant. The trade-off is there.

The example above with Reaper is actually the example ANet themselves used to explain what a trade-off is. If you don't think it counts, then, you're wrong. If you don't think that giving up Skill X to get Skill Y is a trade-off, you're wrong.

Trade(verb)to exchange something, or to stop using or doing something and start using or doing something else instead

Strictly speaking, the only elite-spec that doesn't give up anything from Core, and therefore the only one without a trade-off, is Tempest.

You just miss that the range cut on Swipe should be the trade off for Daredevil elite, and that trade off got compensated instantly by unblockable. You either say Daredevil doesn't need a trade off (Swipe range cut was not necessary in the first place then) or you say Daredevil needs a trade off and that has to be the range cut. Otherwise you give a trade off for Daredevil and then neutralize the trade off with unblockable feature.

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Dragon hunter doesn't need a trade off just like tempest doesn't. The base class(f1-f5) skills of base ele and guardian are horrendous.

? you just exampled to yourself why they need trade off

No, base ele needs to be buffed but base guardian has enough trait lines that are strong that base guardian builds are viable.

Nothing of what you say has anything to do with mechanical trade offs.

[Lighter.5631]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

Hardly a compensation when the unblockable does jack all, especially with Shortbow 4s recent change. Swipe is just a downgrade, the only reason people play Daredevil now is because DA has become useless.

? are you sure? because swipe shits over rev and warrior and holo and ranger more compared to core power thief. when you interrupt their block, it's easy take down.thanks to this, daredevil is also more braindead as you don't need to watch for block to steal.

[Ragnar.4257]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Lighter.5631" said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

That..... that's the definition of a trade-off. Getting a bonus for one thing (unblockable) as compensation for another thing (range cut). That, that's a trade! You have traded unblockable for range.

Is English not your first language? "Trade-off" doesn't mean "make weaker", it just means "exchange one thing for another thing".

Whether or not you consider a trade-off to be stronger or weaker, is irrelevant. The trade is still there.

Easiest example is Core Necro vs Reaper. Reaper gives up Death-Shroud, in exchange for Reaper-Shroud. Whether you think Reaper-Shroud is stronger than Death-Shroud, or not, is irrelevant. The trade-off is there.

The example above with Reaper is actually the example ANet themselves used to explain what a trade-off is. If you don't think it counts, then, you're wrong. If you don't think that giving up Skill X to get Skill Y is a trade-off, you're wrong.

Trade(verb)to exchange something, or to stop using or doing something and start using or doing something else instead

It's not a trade off when they're getting multiple things in exchange for one thing. You aren't just trading range on steal for unlockable. You're trading range on steal for unblockable, AND a third dodge bar and dodge rolls that are inherently superior to traditional dodge rolls. You're getting 3 things in exchange for 1.

That's not a trade. It's buy 1 get 2 free.

Deadeye should get -50% endurance generation on top of swipe losing unblockable. That would be a lot more even.

Trading 1 thing for 3 things is still a trade. If you disagree, how about you trade your house for these 3 pennies I have. There's 3 of them! What a deal! It's like you're getting 2 pennies for FREE!

And no, daredevil dodges aren't part of the elite-spec, they're grandmaster traits. If you equip the trait-line, but don't select any traits, then you're still using core dodges. It makes as much sense to claim that Elusive Mind is the compensation for Mirage losing a dodge, i.e., it makes no sense at all.

[Shiyo.3578]

It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

[Ragnar.4257]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.

Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.

[Lighter.5631]

you guys are missing the point of the post, we are saying the scale of trade off is completely off, not whether one has trade off or not.of course, swipe trade range for unblockable, also gets 50 more endurance, dodge on grand master don't really count tho, but still, 600 range for unblockable and extra dodge is quiet generous, specially on a already mobile class, also you can negate the some of range lose with a trait that increases your dodge range.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

Scrapper also gets an additional -150 vitality trade off in addition to it's loss of it's elite toolbelt skill.

[Ragnar.4257]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.

Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.

Whether or not the trade-off is too strong/weak is irrelevant to determining whether there is a trade-off at all.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.

Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.

Whether or not the trade-off is too strong/weak is irrelevant to determining whether there is a trade-off at all.

That's the problem and the point of this thread you pedant.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Lighter.5631 said:you guys are missing the point of the post, we are saying the scale of trade off is completely off, not whether one has trade off or not.@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

"not whether one has trade off or not"

"daredevil also literally has 0 trade off"

How embarrassing.

[Lighter.5631]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:you guys are missing the point of the post, we are saying the scale of trade off is completely off, not whether one has trade off or not.@Lighter.5631 said:dragon hunter needs trade off, seriously, skills team is so incompetent..it's insane, daredevil also literally has 0 trade off, because unblockable on swipe is basically a compensation for range cut

"not whether one has trade off or not"

"daredevil also literally has 0 trade off"

How embarrassing.

yea, you don't really need to nitpick the word choice i use, i used the wording "literally has 0 trade off" because to me, range for unblockable and extra dodge is quiet generous to almost none existence. happy now? now can we go back to the actual topic instead of arguing what's the dictionary definition of trade off? unless this is the only argument you can come up for why certain classes shouldn't get more trade offs, then you are the real embarrassment here.

[Ragnar.4257]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.

Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.

Whether or not the trade-off is too strong/weak is irrelevant to determining whether there is a trade-off at all.

That's the problem and the point of this thread you pedant.

Then you should qualify that that is the problem, and stop making posts that say things like "it's not a trade off when.....".

If you mean to say that the trade is too strong/weak, then say that. Don't say that the trade isn't there. Language means things.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.

Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.

Whether or not the trade-off is too strong/weak is irrelevant to determining whether there is a trade-off at all.

That's the problem and the point of this thread you pedant.

Then you should qualify that that is the problem, and stop making posts that say things like "it's not a trade off when.....".

If you mean to say that the trade is too strong/weak, then say that. Don't say that the trade isn't there. Language means things.

Again, you're a fucking pedant.

[Ragnar.4257]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.

Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.

Whether or not the trade-off is too strong/weak is irrelevant to determining whether there is a trade-off at all.

That's the problem and the point of this thread you pedant.

Then you should qualify that that is the problem, and stop making posts that say things like "it's not a trade off when.....".

If you mean to say that the trade is too strong/weak, then say that. Don't say that the trade isn't there. Language means things.

Again, you're a kitten pedant.

I assume that by 'pedant' you mean 'exceptionally brilliant individual'. Because words can mean whatever we want them to mean right? :)

[Lighter.5631]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.

Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.

Whether or not the trade-off is too strong/weak is irrelevant to determining whether there is a trade-off at all.

That's the problem and the point of this thread you pedant.

Then you should qualify that that is the problem, and stop making posts that say things like "it's not a trade off when.....".

If you mean to say that the trade is too strong/weak, then say that. Don't say that the trade isn't there. Language means things.

Again, you're a kitten pedant.

I assume that by 'pedant' you mean 'exceptionally brilliant individual'. Because words can mean whatever we want them to mean right? :)

arent you a smart ass, you are arguing because other people used metaphor in their sentences while completely ignoring the main point, amazing.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It does make sense, all 3 of the final traits are buffing dodge. You would literally not have to spend a trait point to not buff your dodge, which is a silly comparison to make.

The same is true of every class. Every class has grandmaster traits. In no other case do you consider the grandmaster traits when assessing trade-offs.

Hey, Mirage is going to pick either Inf Horizon, Elusive Mind, or Dune Cloak, you would literally not have to spend a trait point to not get one of these benefits. That means we need to give Mirage another trade-off right? To compensate for these benefits yeah?

Silly argument to try and make. Traits are out of scope for discussing trade-offs.

Mirage gets 2 condi-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster, Daredevil gets a movement-cleanse on dodge from a grandmaster trait. Explain why the former is just a trait, but the latter is a core feature of the specialisation? As a reminder, which one is "stronger" is irrelevant to this discussion.

And mirage loses an entire bar of endurance for that.

Daredevil should have -50% endurance in exchange for the third dodge roll bar.

Whether or not the trade-off is too strong/weak is irrelevant to determining whether there is a trade-off at all.

That's the problem and the point of this thread you pedant.

Then you should qualify that that is the problem, and stop making posts that say things like "it's not a trade off when.....".

If you mean to say that the trade is too strong/weak, then say that. Don't say that the trade isn't there. Language means things.

Again, you're a kitten pedant.

I assume that by 'pedant' you mean 'exceptionally brilliant individual'. Because words can mean whatever we want them to mean right? :)

arent you a smart kitten, you are arguing because other people used metaphor in their sentences, amazing.

It's not actually to be a smart ass.

It's to actually move the conversation along.

If you post "X has no trade-off" when you mean "X trade-off is too strong" then other people will reply with "but X does have a trade-off" and you just end up arguing in circles.

No progress will be made in that conversation. If you want to have a meaningful discussion, you can't have people talking at cross-purposes.

This is the problem in basically every internet debate ever. People say things other than what they mean, and assume that the other person will be able to magically understand what they really meant. It's the internet forum version of your girlfriend saying "no, I'm fine, nothings the problem".

[Shiyo.3578]

Daredevil shouldn't be able to stealth, at all.Mesmer stealth utilities are ok though.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Daredevil shouldn't be able to stealth, at all.Mesmer stealth utilities are ok though.

No class but thief shoukd have stealth.