Where are the trade offs of herald and holo?

[mortrialus.3062]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is nowFor fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho.

That is not a good trade-off at all.

Engineers are

heavily

reliant on toolbelt skills for their builds, it isn't really rare that utility skills are solely taken for their toolbelt skill even.And it would heavily nerf holosmith's damage potential in PvE, while being a damage dealer is engineer's only viable role in that game mode.Some examples:

• med-kit becomes unplayable, since you are removing the self-heal of the skill (which is located on the toolbelt), this change basically
  removes
  1 healing skill option from holo entirely
• rifle turret toolbelt skill is the only reason to take it, remove surprise shot and rifle turret is dead (just like all the other turrets except healing)
• grenade kit: removing grenade barrage removes one of the hard hitters in power holo's rotation
• this change
  removes 3 stun breaks
  (toolbelts from: thumper turret, elixir gun, slick shoes)

Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills....

Seriously, that change you are suggesting here absolutely kills build diversity for holosmith. What other class get 1 healing skill and 3 stun break skills removed from their pool to get access to their elite spec? Answer: no one.And you are also destroying the dps of holosmith in PvE, which is the only role engineer is currently viable in. You would have to

heavily

buff holosmith's damage to justify such a change, especially since holosmith is designed to be a dps spec.

Welcome to what it feels like to play other classes.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is nowFor fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho.

That is not a good trade-off at all.

Engineers are

heavily

reliant on toolbelt skills for their builds, it isn't really rare that utility skills are solely taken for their toolbelt skill even.And it would heavily nerf holosmith's damage potential in PvE, while being a damage dealer is engineer's only viable role in that game mode.Some examples:

• med-kit becomes unplayable, since you are removing the self-heal of the skill (which is located on the toolbelt), this change basically
  removes
  1 healing skill option from holo entirely
• rifle turret toolbelt skill is the only reason to take it, remove surprise shot and rifle turret is dead (just like all the other turrets except healing)
• grenade kit: removing grenade barrage removes one of the hard hitters in power holo's rotation
• this change
  removes 3 stun breaks
  (toolbelts from: thumper turret, elixir gun, slick shoes)

Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills....

Seriously, that change you are suggesting here absolutely kills build diversity for holosmith. What other class get 1 healing skill and 3 stun break skills removed from their pool to get access to their elite spec? Answer: no one.And you are also destroying the dps of holosmith in PvE, which is the only role engineer is currently viable in. You would have to

heavily

buff holosmith's damage to justify such a change, especially since holosmith is designed to be a dps spec.

Welcome to what it feels like to play other classes.

Nah, this is not at all what other classes have to deal with. Itd be more like if playing Chrono meant you lost all shatter skills in exchange for Continuum Split. Or if picking Weaver meant you had to choose 2 attunements to be restricted to.

[Tinkerer.2167]

so many sind dickriders

he's got a wife and kid leave him be

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Eugchriss.2046" said:A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is nowFor fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho.

That is not a good trade-off at all.

Engineers are

heavily

reliant on toolbelt skills for their builds, it isn't really rare that utility skills are solely taken for their toolbelt skill even.And it would heavily nerf holosmith's damage potential in PvE, while being a damage dealer is engineer's only viable role in that game mode.Some examples:

• med-kit becomes unplayable, since you are removing the self-heal of the skill (which is located on the toolbelt), this change basically
  removes
  1 healing skill option from holo entirely
• rifle turret toolbelt skill is the only reason to take it, remove surprise shot and rifle turret is dead (just like all the other turrets except healing)
• grenade kit: removing grenade barrage removes one of the hard hitters in power holo's rotation
• this change
  removes 3 stun breaks
  (toolbelts from: thumper turret, elixir gun, slick shoes)

Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills....

Seriously, that change you are suggesting here absolutely kills build diversity for holosmith. What other class get 1 healing skill and 3 stun break skills removed from their pool to get access to their elite spec? Answer: no one.And you are also destroying the dps of holosmith in PvE, which is the only role engineer is currently viable in. You would have to

heavily

buff holosmith's damage to justify such a change, especially since holosmith is designed to be a dps spec.

Welcome to what it feels like to play other classes.

Nah, this is not at all what other classes have to deal with. Itd be more like if playing Chrono meant you lost

all

shatter skills in exchange for Continuum Split. Or if picking Weaver meant you had to choose 2 attunements to be restricted to.

You 100% lose access to your shatters unless you have clones meaning you have no capacity to use shatters out of combat at all. You also need clones for shatter making the wait for Phantasms to become clones that much more of a hurdle as well as clones getting cleaved out that much more punishing. Taking Chrono has a severe impact on all aspects of your profession mechanic.

Weavers don't lose attunements but they gain an 4 second ICD for swapping attunments and takes two attunement swaps to access any off-hand skills for a particular element. Again, massive ramifications and restrictions for how you play elementalist.

Holosmith gives up their Elite Toolbelt Skill, none of which are particularly great and none of which come close to comparing to Photon Forge. There's no new restrictions on the profession mechanic. It's one of the freest "Trade offs" in the game.

That losing self shatter and distortion, or the 4s ICD and two attunement swaps to reach offhand skills, are considered perfectly equivalent trade offs to Holosmith's shows how ridiculously misguided and mishandled Anet's direction with "Trade offs" has been.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@White Kitsunee.4620 said:Holo's tradeoff is 2 fold:

1. Removed access to elite tool belt skills.
2. Kits go on CD when you enter forge.

Both of those aren't very good trade offs and truth be told its probably because the rework team hasent gotten to holo and herald yet.Holo is in alot of cases a strict upgrade to core engi since it solves their problem of having crappy weapons.And yes holo is very face-roley, it's not hard to play and its been a strong class since it came out.

Not really applicable tradeoffs.

1. They lose elite tool belt skill, which is replaced with Forge. Forge is like 50x more valuable than any elite tool belt.
2. 5s CD as you go into Forge, which will be gone by the time you're done in Forge, could hardly be viewed as a tradeoff.

Holosmith & Forge are just straight upgrades from Core / Scrapper.

[Kodama.6453]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:

You 100% lose access to your shatters unless you have clones meaning you have no capacity to use shatters out of combat at all. You also need clones for shatter making the wait for Phantasms to become clones that much more of a hurdle as well as clones getting cleaved out that much more punishing. Taking Chrono has a severe impact on all aspects of your profession mechanic.

Weavers don't lose attunements but they gain an 4 second ICD for swapping attunments and takes two attunement swaps to access any off-hand skills for a particular element. Again, massive ramifications and restrictions for how you play elementalist.

Holosmith gives up their Elite Toolbelt Skill, none of which are particularly great and none of which come close to comparing to Photon Forge. There's no new restrictions on the profession mechanic. It's one of the freest "Trade offs" in the game.

That losing self shatter and distortion, or the 4s ICD and two attunement swaps to reach offhand skills, are considered perfectly equivalent trade offs to Holosmith's shows how ridiculously misguided and mishandled Anet's direction with "Trade offs" has been.

The comparison is still not fair.How many stun breaks are you losing by picking chrono or weaver? That's right, none at all, you just get one additional stunbreak option.

Let that sink in: if holosmith removes all toolbelt skills, then you remove 23 skills from their arsenal, to get access to 14 new ones. This is if we "just" remove the utility and elite toolbelt skills, it is worse if we also remove the healing toolbelt skills.And this already includes the skills from sword (3 new ones), photonforge and the new exceed skills.

Picking holosmith gives you a net malus of 9 skills, this would be the far worst elite spec trade off in the history of this game. That is far worse than anything mesmer has to deal with.All the other classes are gaining more skills to chose from. Holosmith would be the only one losing skill choices. And that is just a complete no go.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Eugchriss.2046" said:A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is nowFor fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho.

That is not a good trade-off at all.

Engineers are

heavily

reliant on toolbelt skills for their builds, it isn't really rare that utility skills are solely taken for their toolbelt skill even.And it would heavily nerf holosmith's damage potential in PvE, while being a damage dealer is engineer's only viable role in that game mode.Some examples:

• med-kit becomes unplayable, since you are removing the self-heal of the skill (which is located on the toolbelt), this change basically
  removes
  1 healing skill option from holo entirely
• rifle turret toolbelt skill is the only reason to take it, remove surprise shot and rifle turret is dead (just like all the other turrets except healing)
• grenade kit: removing grenade barrage removes one of the hard hitters in power holo's rotation
• this change
  removes 3 stun breaks
  (toolbelts from: thumper turret, elixir gun, slick shoes)

Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills....

Seriously, that change you are suggesting here absolutely kills build diversity for holosmith. What other class get 1 healing skill and 3 stun break skills removed from their pool to get access to their elite spec? Answer: no one.And you are also destroying the dps of holosmith in PvE, which is the only role engineer is currently viable in. You would have to

heavily

buff holosmith's damage to justify such a change, especially since holosmith is designed to be a dps spec.

Welcome to what it feels like to play other classes.

Nah, this is not at all what other classes have to deal with. Itd be more like if playing Chrono meant you lost

all

shatter skills in exchange for Continuum Split. Or if picking Weaver meant you had to choose 2 attunements to be restricted to.

You 100% lose access to your shatters unless you have clones meaning they have no out of combat utility for shatters at all. You also need clones for shatter making the wait for Phantasms to become clones that much more of a hurdle as well as clones getting cleaved out that much more punishing. Taking Chrono has a severe impact on all aspects of your profession mechanic.

I did not mean figuratively. I meant literally. Imagine if Chrono did not have any shatters. Even if you had clones, there was nothing you could use them for other than Continuum Split/Shift. Thats the level of tradeoff this would be. Wouldnt sound quite as appealing, does it?

Weavers don't lose attunements but they gain an 4 second ICD for swapping attunments and takes two attunement swaps to access any off-hand skills for a particular element. Again, massive ramifications and restrictions for how you play elementalist.

And this too is not even in the same ballpark as Holo not having toolbelt skills.

Holosmith gives up their Elite Toolbelt Skill, none of which are particularly great and none of which come close to comparing to Photon Forge. There's no new restrictions on the profession mechanic. It's one of the freest "Trade offs" in the game.

Youre joking, right? The Elite toolbelt skills are amazing. AoE Full condi clear, AoE Moa elixir, these are great. The Mortar kit one sucks, but core didnt even use mortar kit before the recent nerfs, it sure as hell doesnt now. Additionally it also comes with the tradeoffs of not being able to swap to kits as freely, and the whole overheat thing. Now, you are right that, overall, its not that particularly big of a drawback.

But the photon forge itself (detached from the traits since look at those seperately) is also not that big of an upside either, in its current state. Skill 5 was nerfed so much that its actually very situational, skill 4 is literally useless (I have no idea what the point of it is. It burns through heat like crazy, does almost no damage and provides no utility), Corona Burst is good for damage, Holo Leap is good for mobility, and the autoattack at this point does less damage than the sword one at 50% heat I believe. Or even 0%, Id have to look up the timing for the whole chain. Compare that to, say, Firebrands 3 skill sets with multiple really good skills amongst them orTempests literally free Overloads.

Dont get me wrong, Holo is a bit strong right now, but thats mostly because damage in the game in general is just far too low. Nerfing Holo doesnt really fix the major issues the current meta has, instead we should focus on buffing up everyone elses damage so that the sidenoder meta isnt knockbacks, and kills arent restricted to outnumbered situations.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:

You 100% lose access to your shatters unless you have clones meaning you have no capacity to use shatters out of combat at all. You also need clones for shatter making the wait for Phantasms to become clones that much more of a hurdle as well as clones getting cleaved out that much more punishing. Taking Chrono has a severe impact on all aspects of your profession mechanic.

Weavers don't lose attunements but they gain an 4 second ICD for swapping attunments and takes two attunement swaps to access any off-hand skills for a particular element. Again, massive ramifications and restrictions for how you play elementalist.

Holosmith gives up their Elite Toolbelt Skill, none of which are particularly great and none of which come close to comparing to Photon Forge. There's no new restrictions on the profession mechanic. It's one of the freest "Trade offs" in the game.

That losing self shatter and distortion, or the 4s ICD and two attunement swaps to reach offhand skills, are considered perfectly equivalent trade offs to Holosmith's shows how ridiculously misguided and mishandled Anet's direction with "Trade offs" has been.

The comparison is still not fair.How many stun breaks are you losing by picking chrono or weaver? That's right, none at all, you just

get

one additional stunbreak option.

When you get jumped by a target, whether it's a thief while on the roads or a ranger sniping you with longbow at range, Distraction and Distortion can be the ONLY things that save you from dying right then and there. On demand distortion in partricular is THE lynchpin of mesmer survivability.

Again, welcome to what it would feel like to play other classes.

[Kodama.6453]

@"Eugchriss.2046" said:The whole Photon Forge is about dps, so idk what you re talking about.

You are removing many dps skills from the holoforge build (rifle turret toolbelt, grenade kit toolbelt, etc), without giving any replacement. Removing dps skills without compensation is a net loss in dps, meaning you are gutting the damage of the holosmith here.

wait a minute, it sounds like PF#2 . You even have PF#4 for the ranged version.

Rifle turret toolbelt is instacast damage, how is that the same like PF2 and PF4, which both have a cast time and provide less dps than this skill in comparison? I think you are extremely underselling how strong it is to have something as instacast.

Yes, you loose 3 stunbreaks but you gain 3 dps skills and 1 aoe CC. Now it's up to you to choose what you want. Dps or stunbreaks? CHOOSE.

Ok, I am fine with that, as long as we also remove 3 stun breaks from every other dps elite spec, which are: berserker, dragonhunter, renegade, soulbeast, deadeye, weaver, mirage, reaper.These also should have to chose between dps or stun breaks, right?

Yes but you gain another burst skill aka corona burst. You want a ranged burst or a melee burst? CHOOSE.

I don't think you actually know holosmith's skills at that point. Corona burst is not a burst skill, even if the name reads "burst", lmao.

I am not removing 5 skills from the game. There will still be there. If you want them, you take core/scrapper, if not then it your choice. However, I am replacing 5 skills by 5 others. It sounds fair to me. You can keep the F1 if you want but then no auto attack for PF.Right now, holo is just core + photon forge. Nothing else.

And with this, you again demonstrate that you don't seem to have put much thought into that suggested nerf.

Exceed skills are the skill type that holosmith gets access to. These skills currently all have toolbelt skills, obviously.The suggestion is that holosmith have to give up their entire toolbelt.Which means that you are absolutely unable to have access to the exceed skills toolbelts, since these require you to pick holosmith, which would remove toolbelts.You are literally deleting 5 skills from the game with this change.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

You 100% lose access to your shatters unless you have clones meaning you have no capacity to use shatters out of combat at all. You also need clones for shatter making the wait for Phantasms to become clones that much more of a hurdle as well as clones getting cleaved out that much more punishing. Taking Chrono has a severe impact on all aspects of your profession mechanic.

Weavers don't lose attunements but they gain an 4 second ICD for swapping attunments and takes two attunement swaps to access any off-hand skills for a particular element. Again, massive ramifications and restrictions for how you play elementalist.

Holosmith gives up their Elite Toolbelt Skill, none of which are particularly great and none of which come close to comparing to Photon Forge. There's no new restrictions on the profession mechanic. It's one of the freest "Trade offs" in the game.

That losing self shatter and distortion, or the 4s ICD and two attunement swaps to reach offhand skills, are considered perfectly equivalent trade offs to Holosmith's shows how ridiculously misguided and mishandled Anet's direction with "Trade offs" has been.

The comparison is still not fair.How many stun breaks are you losing by picking chrono or weaver? That's right, none at all, you just

get

one additional stunbreak option.

When you get jumped by a target, whether it's a thief while on the roads or a ranger sniping you with longbow at range, Distraction and Distortion can be the ONLY things that save you from dying right then and there. On demand distortion in partricular is THE lynchpin of mesmer survivability.

Again, welcome to what it would feel like to play other classes.

I dont think you quite understand. If Holo had to give up toolbelt skills for Photon Forge, the trade-off would be 10 times worse than Chrono. Picking holo would be a banworthy offense.

[Kodama.6453]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

You 100% lose access to your shatters unless you have clones meaning you have no capacity to use shatters out of combat at all. You also need clones for shatter making the wait for Phantasms to become clones that much more of a hurdle as well as clones getting cleaved out that much more punishing. Taking Chrono has a severe impact on all aspects of your profession mechanic.

Weavers don't lose attunements but they gain an 4 second ICD for swapping attunments and takes two attunement swaps to access any off-hand skills for a particular element. Again, massive ramifications and restrictions for how you play elementalist.

Holosmith gives up their Elite Toolbelt Skill, none of which are particularly great and none of which come close to comparing to Photon Forge. There's no new restrictions on the profession mechanic. It's one of the freest "Trade offs" in the game.

That losing self shatter and distortion, or the 4s ICD and two attunement swaps to reach offhand skills, are considered perfectly equivalent trade offs to Holosmith's shows how ridiculously misguided and mishandled Anet's direction with "Trade offs" has been.

The comparison is still not fair.How many stun breaks are you losing by picking chrono or weaver? That's right, none at all, you just

get

one additional stunbreak option.

When you get jumped by a target, whether it's a thief while on the roads or a ranger sniping you with longbow at range, Distraction and Distortion can be the ONLY things that save you from dying right then and there. On demand distortion in partricular is THE lynchpin of mesmer survivability.

Again, welcome to what it would feel like to play other classes.

This is ridiculous. You want to tell me that is as bad as having 9 less skills to chose from than core?Ok, lets give chrono the shatters back. Then also don't give them any new wells, no new weapons skills, no new shatters.

And then also remove 5 of their core utility skills. That is what holosmith has to deal with here. You are left with less options than the core profession. You really want to make that trade? Because I think chrono will feel much worse if we go through with these changes, my friend.

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

You 100% lose access to your shatters unless you have clones meaning you have no capacity to use shatters out of combat at all. You also need clones for shatter making the wait for Phantasms to become clones that much more of a hurdle as well as clones getting cleaved out that much more punishing. Taking Chrono has a severe impact on all aspects of your profession mechanic.

Weavers don't lose attunements but they gain an 4 second ICD for swapping attunments and takes two attunement swaps to access any off-hand skills for a particular element. Again, massive ramifications and restrictions for how you play elementalist.

Holosmith gives up their Elite Toolbelt Skill, none of which are particularly great and none of which come close to comparing to Photon Forge. There's no new restrictions on the profession mechanic. It's one of the freest "Trade offs" in the game.

That losing self shatter and distortion, or the 4s ICD and two attunement swaps to reach offhand skills, are considered perfectly equivalent trade offs to Holosmith's shows how ridiculously misguided and mishandled Anet's direction with "Trade offs" has been.

The comparison is still not fair.How many stun breaks are you losing by picking chrono or weaver? That's right, none at all, you just

get

one additional stunbreak option.

When you get jumped by a target, whether it's a thief while on the roads or a ranger sniping you with longbow at range, Distraction and Distortion can be the ONLY things that save you from dying right then and there. On demand distortion in partricular is THE lynchpin of mesmer survivability.

Again, welcome to what it would feel like to play other classes.

I dont think you quite understand. If Holo had to give up toolbelt skills for Photon Forge, the trade-off would be

10 times worse

than Chrono. Picking holo would be a banworthy offense.

On a practical level, no it would not be as bad as losing self shatter on Chrono. Toolbelt skills tend to be smaller bonuses to your utility skills. They aren't typically the lynchpin of both your offense and your defense the way Mesmer's profession mechanic is.

You're delusional if you think the current trade off is perfectly in line with what other elite specializations are losing as it is now and you shouldn't be defending it.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

You 100% lose access to your shatters unless you have clones meaning you have no capacity to use shatters out of combat at all. You also need clones for shatter making the wait for Phantasms to become clones that much more of a hurdle as well as clones getting cleaved out that much more punishing. Taking Chrono has a severe impact on all aspects of your profession mechanic.

Weavers don't lose attunements but they gain an 4 second ICD for swapping attunments and takes two attunement swaps to access any off-hand skills for a particular element. Again, massive ramifications and restrictions for how you play elementalist.

Holosmith gives up their Elite Toolbelt Skill, none of which are particularly great and none of which come close to comparing to Photon Forge. There's no new restrictions on the profession mechanic. It's one of the freest "Trade offs" in the game.

That losing self shatter and distortion, or the 4s ICD and two attunement swaps to reach offhand skills, are considered perfectly equivalent trade offs to Holosmith's shows how ridiculously misguided and mishandled Anet's direction with "Trade offs" has been.

The comparison is still not fair.How many stun breaks are you losing by picking chrono or weaver? That's right, none at all, you just

get

one additional stunbreak option.

When you get jumped by a target, whether it's a thief while on the roads or a ranger sniping you with longbow at range, Distraction and Distortion can be the ONLY things that save you from dying right then and there. On demand distortion in partricular is THE lynchpin of mesmer survivability.

Again, welcome to what it would feel like to play other classes.

I dont think you quite understand. If Holo had to give up toolbelt skills for Photon Forge, the trade-off would be

10 times worse

than Chrono. Picking holo would be a banworthy offense.

On a practical level, no it would not be as bad as losing self shatter on Chrono. Toolbelt skills tend to be smaller bonuses to your utility skills. They aren't typically the lynchpin of both your offense and your defense the way Mesmer's profession mechanic is.

It would be worse. Toolbelt skills are not "smaller bonuses to your utility skills". Theyre typically, in fact, the lynchpin of both your offense and your defense. Moreso than even Mesmers stuff. Grenade barrage is Holos burst. The elixirs both their offense through HGH and their defense through their own effects. Which is to say nothing of skills like Slick shoes where the toolbelt is the stunbreak, or other skills like rifle turret where the toolbelt skill is the only reason to ever use it.

You're delusional if you think the current trade off is perfectly in line with what other elite specializations are losing as it is now and you shouldn't be defending it.

The point of a tradeoff is to be proportional to what you gain, not proportional to everyone else. Holo doesnt lose much. But in terms of non-trait specific things, Holo also doesnt gain much. The Photon Forge, in PvP and WvW, is honestly not that great. Corona Burst is a good skill. Holo Leap is useful for mobility, and ok as a damage filler. Holographic shockwave is situationally decent. Photon Blitz is useless, and the autos outclassed. In simpler terms, you basically get 2-3 skills, which are not even particularly impressive.

But just to hammer the point across just how useless Holo would be if it couldnt use the Toolbelt skills, your tradeoff is that you lose 5 amazing skills, and in exchange you get 1 good and 2 mediocre ones. You lose strictly more than you gain. Why would anyone ever use Holo at that point, if Core Engineer is strictly far better?

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

I suggest nerfs for herald and holo to be like these:Herald :Glint 6 heal cooldown increased to 40 seconds, shield 5 skill cooldown increased to 30 seconds. Malyx 0 ultimate spell torment duration reduced by 20% since it applies so much torment in area of effect.Holosmith :Nerf trait that allows holo to have 150% of its heat and pulsing might OR allow 25 might but nerf its defenses(shield spells, mobility, stealth, elixir for few second invulnerability) OR third option is to make overheating damage more lethal and more often if player goes too opressive. On explosive entrance, remove blind or either remove that trait to crit.

[Shiyo.3578]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is nowFor fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho.

That is not a good trade-off at all.

Engineers are

heavily

reliant on toolbelt skills for their builds, it isn't really rare that utility skills are solely taken for their toolbelt skill even.And it would heavily nerf holosmith's damage potential in PvE, while being a damage dealer is engineer's only viable role in that game mode.Some examples:

• med-kit becomes unplayable, since you are removing the self-heal of the skill (which is located on the toolbelt), this change basically
  removes
  1 healing skill option from holo entirely
• rifle turret toolbelt skill is the only reason to take it, remove surprise shot and rifle turret is dead (just like all the other turrets except healing)
• grenade kit: removing grenade barrage removes one of the hard hitters in power holo's rotation
• this change
  removes 3 stun breaks
  (toolbelts from: thumper turret, elixir gun, slick shoes)

Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills....

Seriously, that change you are suggesting here absolutely kills build diversity for holosmith. What other class get 1 healing skill and 3 stun break skills removed from their pool to get access to their elite spec? Answer: no one.And you are also destroying the dps of holosmith in PvE, which is the only role engineer is currently viable in. You would have to

heavily

buff holosmith's damage to justify such a change, especially since holosmith is designed to be a dps spec.

Welcome to what it feels like to play other classes.

Seriously, Eng players are so used to having everything for free they don't understand what actual balanced class design looks like.

Remove holosmiths access to kits as a trade off.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:A good trade-off for holo would have been something like: They loose all their F-skills and they re replaced by holo skills. The heat mechanic stays as it is nowFor fb: They loose their 3 virtues and instead can choose to specialize in one (or 2) of them called tomes. Tomes cds are reduced by huge amount tho.

That is not a good trade-off at all.

Engineers are

heavily

reliant on toolbelt skills for their builds, it isn't really rare that utility skills are solely taken for their toolbelt skill even.And it would heavily nerf holosmith's damage potential in PvE, while being a damage dealer is engineer's only viable role in that game mode.Some examples:

• med-kit becomes unplayable, since you are removing the self-heal of the skill (which is located on the toolbelt), this change basically
  removes
  1 healing skill option from holo entirely
• rifle turret toolbelt skill is the only reason to take it, remove surprise shot and rifle turret is dead (just like all the other turrets except healing)
• grenade kit: removing grenade barrage removes one of the hard hitters in power holo's rotation
• this change
  removes 3 stun breaks
  (toolbelts from: thumper turret, elixir gun, slick shoes)

Not to mention that you are entirely removing 5 skills from the game entirely by removing the toolbelt skills of the exceed skills....

Seriously, that change you are suggesting here absolutely kills build diversity for holosmith. What other class get 1 healing skill and 3 stun break skills removed from their pool to get access to their elite spec? Answer: no one.And you are also destroying the dps of holosmith in PvE, which is the only role engineer is currently viable in. You would have to

heavily

buff holosmith's damage to justify such a change, especially since holosmith is designed to be a dps spec.

Welcome to what it feels like to play other classes.

Seriously, Eng players are so used to having everything for free they don't understand what actual balanced class design looks like.

Remove holosmiths access to kits as a trade off.

Dont you play Tempest, which literally does not have a Tradeoff? Sure, if you agree to taking away Glyphs from Tempest, we can take Kits from Holo (though most likely that just means no one plays Holo again, so eh).

[Shiyo.3578]

I don't think there will ever be a version of GW2 where engineer isn't not only played, but also isn't the top3 best class in the entire game for PvP.

Just what happens when a class has literally everything all the time.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shiyo.3578 said:I don't think there will ever be a version of GW2 where engineer isn't not only played, but also isn't the top3 best class in the entire game for PvP.

Just what happens when a class has literally everything all the time.

Engineer hasnt been played much a lot of the time in GW2 PvP, and its rarely top 3. Youre thinking of Elementalist.

[SevlisBavles.3059]

Holo and Herald sacrifice the following:

Holo - your prideHerald - your dignity