Fun vs Power Creep - We Are Losing Out on Fun

[TheGrimm.5624]

So I am posting this less for players and more for the devs. I am an alt-o-holic by nature and GW2 has lended itself well to this. Once I find a fun build I will typically leave that character and build in place and if I want to alter that one I will pick up a new character slot and build another toon. Needless to say after core game and 2 expansions I am left with a variety of toons over time to choose to play from. Have 23 of 31 toons that were geared for WvW fully ascended and some in legendary armor and weapons. I did this because after some of the earlier releases and balance patches there were a variety of fun and effective builds to choose from. I still remember after one of the later HoT balance patches there was suddenly a much larger group of options that had synergy and could provide fun gameplay be that in HoT or core builds. Patches into PoF there were also some options restricted but some new ones introduced. Now the other thing I will state is that I build more defensive than zerk. Run solo and havoc in WvW so need to plan to run into larger groups and need to be able to take hits or also take out that zerk roamer. The problem is after the most recent patches most of those older builds all now feel off and are not that fun to play. Everything feels it doesn't matter when to trigger skills where before they felt they had more timing. The goal of the patch was to make it feel more meaningful when to trigger an ability but in reality it has translated to less so. Now I know the idea was to bring everything down and then balance from there and bring things back up but we are now overdue on the bring back up part that leaves the player base with the thought that is already done. The concept of bigger hit items should be trigger less and have longer cooldown is good but what we got was less damage and impact and longer cooldowns. So I have to ask, where is the rest of the balance patch and/or when are next set of elites coming out? Game play should allow for fun, creative and skillful game play. It now seems we are in the age of auto-attacks and less build options. Out of 23 fun to play builds, to me that's been reduced to 3. I am the first to say it will be fun theory crafting after any given balance patch and can find a number of new interesting builds to try, but after trying and reviewing after the large one I am still left at not finding anything new or of interest and game play feels more dumbed down, which leads to boring game play. So again I would ask, where is the other side of the patch going to come out.

Appreciate the time, 2 cents from an alt-o-holic. Good gaming!

[keenedge.9675]

I mostly agree. Some of the power-creep is from my learning to be proactive during my game-play. Better at anticipating, dodging attacks, avoiding ground AoE's and have a strategy before the fight begins. But much of the balance mismatch has come when HoT brought Elite skills and higher stat gear.

WvW has suffered from the addition of the Elite classes and new gear stat increases. Balancing those interactions is nearly impossible. What used to be a level playing ground for everyone is now slanted toward the veteran players who have the advantage of years of build crafting (like in any good MMO), plus gold reserves for full ascended level gear.

Core Tyria didn't require much from a player, which is a great place for huge amount of lore and activities. This makes the beginning game enjoyable for new players.

Now, the newer players don't seem to play for immersion, they want flashy moves and sounds. Anet started adding that to the game after HoT. Little by little I noticed the same skills becoming more flashy.

I think fights should be based more on player abilities than a 1 or 2-shot skill to down a player before they have time to react. I don't mind getting squashed by a better player. But I do mind it when it really seems like a macro playback of a skill chain. Short fights mean people with average ISP connections or PCs are disadvantaged. A quick fight(1v1) should be 8-15 sec and well-balanced one maybe 25-50 sec.

Skill splits were a good start. Similar to PvP where you don't bring gear just a build and your ability.

A WvW zerg is just not a fun concept. A WvW team is because a leader uses the team as a weapon instead of a swarm of locusts. Havoc is a fun way to participate in WvW without playing follow the leader for hours, including all of the waiting time for breaks.

Plus, it may be time to overhaul the WvW Server engine and communication code to be more efficient. Cutting all the skill cast events in half by increasing the cooldowns didn't help the lagging. Hmm, just realized .. perhaps the client is becoming bogged down with all the glamour and mount data that now has to be shared via the 'net and rendered.

Perhaps changing WvW to more maps with a smaller footprint would help the throughput issues.

[Yggranya.5201]

@keenedge.9675 said:I mostly agree. Some of the power-creep is from my learning to be proactive during my game-play. Better at anticipating, dodging attacks, avoiding ground AoE's and have a strategy before the fight begins. But much of the balance mismatch has come when HoT brought Elite skills and higher stat gear.

WvW has suffered from the addition of the Elite classes and new gear stat increases. Balancing those interactions is nearly impossible. What used to be a level playing ground for everyone is now slanted toward the veteran players who have the advantage of years of build crafting (like in any good MMO), plus gold reserves for full ascended level gear.

Core Tyria didn't require much from a player, which is a great place for huge amount of lore and activities. This makes the beginning game enjoyable for new players.

Now, the newer players don't seem to play for immersion, they want flashy moves and sounds. Anet started adding that to the game after HoT. Little by little I noticed the same skills becoming more flashy.

I think fights should be based more on player abilities than a 1 or 2-shot skill to down a player before they have time to react. I don't mind getting squashed by a better player. But I do mind it when it really seems like a macro playback of a skill chain. Short fights mean people with average ISP connections or PCs are disadvantaged. A quick fight(1v1) should be 8-15 sec and well-balanced one maybe 25-50 sec.

Skill splits were a good start. Similar to PvP where you don't bring gear just a build and your ability.

A WvW zerg is just not a fun concept. A WvW team is because a leader uses the team as a weapon instead of a swarm of locusts. Havoc is a fun way to participate in WvW without playing follow the leader for hours, including all of the waiting time for breaks.

Plus, it may be time to overhaul the WvW Server engine and communication code to be more efficient. Cutting all the skill cast events in half by increasing the cooldowns didn't help the lagging. Hmm, just realized .. perhaps the client is becoming bogged down with all the glamour and mount data that now has to be shared via the 'net and rendered.

Perhaps changing WvW to more maps with a smaller footprint would help the throughput issues.

Balance would not be impossible if all game modes had their own balance, PvP is PvP, PvE is PvE, WvW is WvW. Of course, all game developers know that so the question is, why do most of them make the same mistake? My guess is that it's easier initially like that, don't know how but what else could the reason be?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Could have been the reason the Devs gave for doing that.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@keenedge.9675 said:I mostly agree. Some of the power-creep is from my learning to be proactive during my game-play. Better at anticipating, dodging attacks, avoiding ground AoE's and have a strategy before the fight begins. But much of the balance mismatch has come when HoT brought Elite skills and higher stat gear.

WvW has suffered from the addition of the Elite classes and new gear stat increases. Balancing those interactions is nearly impossible. What used to be a level playing ground for everyone is now slanted toward the veteran players who have the advantage of years of build crafting (like in any good MMO), plus gold reserves for full ascended level gear.

Core Tyria didn't require much from a player, which is a great place for huge amount of lore and activities. This makes the beginning game enjoyable for new players.

Now, the newer players don't seem to play for immersion, they want flashy moves and sounds. Anet started adding that to the game after HoT. Little by little I noticed the same skills becoming more flashy.

I think fights should be based more on player abilities than a 1 or 2-shot skill to down a player before they have time to react. I don't mind getting squashed by a better player. But I do mind it when it really seems like a macro playback of a skill chain. Short fights mean people with average ISP connections or PCs are disadvantaged. A quick fight(1v1) should be 8-15 sec and well-balanced one maybe 25-50 sec.

Skill splits were a good start. Similar to PvP where you don't bring gear just a build and your ability.

A WvW zerg is just not a fun concept. A WvW team is because a leader uses the team as a weapon instead of a swarm of locusts. Havoc is a fun way to participate in WvW without playing follow the leader for hours, including all of the waiting time for breaks.

Plus, it may be time to overhaul the WvW Server engine and communication code to be more efficient. Cutting all the skill cast events in half by increasing the cooldowns didn't help the lagging. Hmm, just realized .. perhaps the client is becoming bogged down with all the glamour and mount data that now has to be shared via the 'net and rendered.

Perhaps changing WvW to more maps with a smaller footprint would help the throughput issues.

Balance would not be impossible if all game modes had their own balance, PvP is PvP, PvE is PvE, WvW is WvW.You mean like they are now?Of course, all game developers know that so the question is, why do most of them make the same mistake? My guess is that it's easier initially like that, don't know how but what else could the reason be?The answer is to provide a consistent experience to the players across game modes. The dream the developer has in that the player has the same look, feel and effect of any given power regardles where it is used. Having a power operate differently creates confusion and dissat among a large number of players.

[Yggranya.5201]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@keenedge.9675 said:I mostly agree. Some of the power-creep is from my learning to be proactive during my game-play. Better at anticipating, dodging attacks, avoiding ground AoE's and have a strategy before the fight begins. But much of the balance mismatch has come when HoT brought Elite skills and higher stat gear.

WvW has suffered from the addition of the Elite classes and new gear stat increases. Balancing those interactions is nearly impossible. What used to be a level playing ground for everyone is now slanted toward the veteran players who have the advantage of years of build crafting (like in any good MMO), plus gold reserves for full ascended level gear.

Core Tyria didn't require much from a player, which is a great place for huge amount of lore and activities. This makes the beginning game enjoyable for new players.

Now, the newer players don't seem to play for immersion, they want flashy moves and sounds. Anet started adding that to the game after HoT. Little by little I noticed the same skills becoming more flashy.

I think fights should be based more on player abilities than a 1 or 2-shot skill to down a player before they have time to react. I don't mind getting squashed by a better player. But I do mind it when it really seems like a macro playback of a skill chain. Short fights mean people with average ISP connections or PCs are disadvantaged. A quick fight(1v1) should be 8-15 sec and well-balanced one maybe 25-50 sec.

Skill splits were a good start. Similar to PvP where you don't bring gear just a build and your ability.

A WvW zerg is just not a fun concept. A WvW team is because a leader uses the team as a weapon instead of a swarm of locusts. Havoc is a fun way to participate in WvW without playing follow the leader for hours, including all of the waiting time for breaks.

Plus, it may be time to overhaul the WvW Server engine and communication code to be more efficient. Cutting all the skill cast events in half by increasing the cooldowns didn't help the lagging. Hmm, just realized .. perhaps the client is becoming bogged down with all the glamour and mount data that now has to be shared via the 'net and rendered.

Perhaps changing WvW to more maps with a smaller footprint would help the throughput issues.

Balance would not be impossible if all game modes had their own balance, PvP is PvP, PvE is PvE, WvW is WvW.You mean like they are now?Of course, all game developers know that so the question is, why do most of them make the same mistake? My guess is that it's easier initially like that, don't know how but what else could the reason be?The answer is to provide a consistent experience to the players across game modes. The dream the developer has in that the player has the same look, feel and effect of any given power regardles where it is used. Having a power operate differently creates confusion and dissat among a large number of players.

All abilities have been changed to be different? When did that happen?

[Tails.9372]

I agree, in some aspects the fear of "power creep" (whether justified or not) is holding the game back on multiple occasions. One prominent example of this would be the Field Tech Turrets from LW S4E3.

@mindcircus.1506 said:The dream the developer has in that the player has the same look, feel and effect of any given power regardles where it is used.In that regard they already failed, one of the main reasons I don't like WvW / sPvP is how their changes affect the gameplay of certain builds compared to their PvE counterparts.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Yggranya.5201 said:All abilities have been changed to be different? When did that happen?Over two years ago.@Tails.9372 said:In that regard they already failed, one of the main reasons I don't like WvW / sPvP is how their changes affect the gameplay of certain builds compared to their PvE counterparts.uh...sure.

[Astralporing.1957]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:Balance would not be impossible if all game modes had their own balance, PvP is PvP, PvE is PvE, WvW is WvW.You mean like they are now?They have started to split skills between game modes, and adding some mode-secific balance passes, but that's nowhere close to what separate balance would be about. The best example would be Confusion - the last rework of the system was done with PvP modes (and

only

them) in mind. It also made Confusion completely unbalanced in PvE. They've tried to somewhat correct it with further changes later, but it's still a problem - a system that is built around assumptions that completely disregard the PvE situation. And all that is because the splits Anet is willing to do (or, possibly, is

capable

of doing) are limited only to skill/effect coefficients.

Of course, all game developers know that so the question is, why do most of them make the same mistake? My guess is that it's easier initially like that, don't know how but what else could the reason be?The answer is to provide a consistent experience to the players across game modes. The dream the developer has in that the player has the same look, feel and effect of any given power regardles where it is used. Having a power operate differently creates confusion and dissat among a large number of players.And yet that already happens. The playstyle between modes is very different. As a result, the same power, that operates exactly the same way, can mean something completely different in PvE and PvP. It's already at the point where the experience from one mode does not translate to another mode. If you move from one mode to the other, you will still end up using different skills, or using them differently, and will need to relearn all that anyway. As such, all this self-imposed limitation on balance does is creating new balance issues with each balance pass.

[Kulvar.1239]

The only way to balance PvP is to have a lot more map modes than conquest.The only way to bridge PvE and PvP balance is to have monsters as threatening as players so you need to dodge, block, cleanse, CC, ...

[Astralporing.1957]

@Kulvar.1239 said:The only way to bridge PvE and PvP balance is to have monsters as threatening as players so you need to dodge, block, cleanse, CC, ...That didn't work even in GW1, where mobs used exactly the same skill system as players. The difference between mob AI and player behavious was simply too great, and players ended up being able to operate in ways mobs could never duplicate. As such, skill splits between modes were also a case there.

[Yggranya.5201]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:Balance would not be impossible if all game modes had their own balance, PvP is PvP, PvE is PvE, WvW is WvW.You mean like they are now?They have started to split skills between game modes, and adding some mode-secific balance passes, but that's nowhere close to what separate balance would be about. The best example would be Confusion - the last rework of the system was done with PvP modes (and

only

them) in mind. It also made Confusion completely unbalanced in PvE. They've tried to somewhat correct it with further changes later, but it's still a problem - a system that is built around assumptions that completely disregard the PvE situation. And all that is because the splits Anet is willing to do (or, possibly, is

capable

of doing) are limited only to skill/effect coefficients.

Of course, all game developers know that so the question is, why do most of them make the same mistake? My guess is that it's easier initially like that, don't know how but what else could the reason be?The answer is to provide a consistent experience to the players across game modes. The dream the developer has in that the player has the same look, feel and effect of any given power regardles where it is used. Having a power operate differently creates confusion and dissat among a large number of players.And yet that already happens. The playstyle between modes is very different. As a result, the same power, that operates exactly the same way, can mean something completely different in PvE and PvP. It's already at the point where the experience from one mode does not translate to another mode. If you move from one mode to the other, you will still end up using different skills, or using them differently, and will need to relearn all that anyway. As such, all this self-imposed limitation on balance does is creating new balance issues with each balance pass.

Indeed.

[Kulvar.1239]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The only way to bridge PvE and PvP balance is to have monsters as threatening as players so you need to dodge, block, cleanse, CC, ...That didn't work even in GW1, where mobs used exactly the same skill system as players. The difference between mob AI and player behavious was simply too great, and players ended up being able to operate in ways mobs could never duplicate. As such, skill splits between modes were also a case there.

But trying helps

[Tails.9372]

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The only way to bridge PvE and PvP balance is to have monsters as threatening as players so you need to dodge, block, cleanse, CC, ...That didn't work even in GW1, where mobs used exactly the same skill system as players. The difference between mob AI and player behavious was simply too great, and players ended up being able to operate in ways mobs could never duplicate. As such, skill splits between modes were also a case there.

But trying helpsUnless is doesn't, depending on what you value A-Nets balance through nerfing approach has made several things less fun for many people. A-Net might say stuff like "we increased cooldowns to make the choice of using a skill more meaningful" but all I read here is "were going to make the gameplay slower and duller".

Not to mention the countless times where their "trying" made the whole thing worse because of all the collateral damage it caused.

[Kulvar.1239]

@Tails.9372 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The only way to bridge PvE and PvP balance is to have monsters as threatening as players so you need to dodge, block, cleanse, CC, ...That didn't work even in GW1, where mobs used exactly the same skill system as players. The difference between mob AI and player behavious was simply too great, and players ended up being able to operate in ways mobs could never duplicate. As such, skill splits between modes were also a case there.

But trying helpsUnless is doesn't, depending on what you value A-Nets balance through nerfing approach has made several things less fun for many people. A-Net might say stuff like "we increased cooldowns to make the choice of using a skill more meaningful" but all I read here is "were going to make the gameplay slower and duller".

Not to mention the countless times where their "trying" made the whole thing worse because of all the collateral damage it caused.

You misunderstood. I said : Trying to make PvE monsters fight like players (with heal, CC, dodge, block, boon, conditions) helps have a similar balance between PvE and PvP.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Kulvar.1239" said:You misunderstood. I said : Trying to make PvE monsters fight like players (with heal, CC, dodge, block, boon, conditions) helps have a similar balance between PvE and PvP.And i already pointed out to you, using a preexisting example of GW1, that it still doesn't matter, and you will still end up needing to balance modes separately.Mob AI simply cannot mimic human players well enough. Depending on the level of scripting and AI mobs will get, even with the same skillset they might end up better than players in some areas, but will still remain way worse in others, which will still result in different balancing factors for PvE and PvP modes.In fact, mobs using a lot of the same mechanics players do might introduce an additional balancing factor to the whole balance equation. You'd need to balance with not only PvE and PvP in mind, but also balance for additional "mode": MvP, creating even bigger mess than what we already have. Or introducing even more reason to split skills (and actual skill mechanics, not just coefficients).

[Kulvar.1239]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Kulvar.1239" said:You misunderstood. I said : Trying to make PvE monsters fight like players (with heal, CC, dodge, block, boon, conditions) helps have a similar balance between PvE and PvP.And i already pointed out to you, using a preexisting example of GW1, that it still doesn't matter, and you will still end up needing to balance modes separately.Mob AI simply cannot mimic human players well enough. Depending on the level of scripting and AI mobs will get, even with the same skillset they might end up better than players in some areas, but will still remain way worse in others, which will still result in different balancing factors for PvE and PvP modes.In fact, mobs using a lot of the same mechanics players do might introduce an

additional

balancing factor to the whole balance equation. You'd need to balance with not only PvE and PvP in mind, but also balance for additional "mode": MvP, creating even bigger mess than what we already have. Or introducing even more reason to split skills (and actual skill mechanics, not just coefficients).

I disagree with you on its futility.

[LadyKitty.6120]

If you make some mobs act like players, big question is: what would be their skill level? Like mentioned at least somehow, somewhere there's always a post asking to nerf difficulty as lots of stuff that experienced players can beat without even thinking can be impossible for majority of playerbase. AI like casual players? "Boooring, too easy" will the raiders, PvPers and WvWers say. AI like hardcore players? "GW2 too difficult, we don't play it for PvP" will the casuals say.There's certainly been a power creep in PvE, especially with latest major balance patch, but it's mostly noticeable at the top 5% most skilled portion of playerbase who play the builds to close enough of maximum potential to matter. And even within that 5%, a good player with 40% weaker, totally not powercrept build can still easily outperform a semi-decent player with most efficient build available so it's actually even less than 5%.

Though Kitty does agree that there's too much of difference between weapons' performance and stuff like engi's Tool Kit, Mortar Kit, hammer on everyone (except scrapper), warr's rifle maces and greatsword, necromancer as whole, thief's condi stuffs, sword, dagger and shortbow, ele's Frost Bow and Flame Axe conjures and mesmer's staff need boosts to become serious options (again) at top-end as those all are severely underperforming (Kitty's tested) by being 30-60% less effective than the more effective commonly played alternatives.

[TheGrimm.5624]

I admit I post more from the WvW side versus PvE. Since combat is a type of endgame it needs to be engaging. Since WvW doesn't (and shouldn't) use the amulet style system there needs to be many viable builds on all classes core and elite. There should be fun and effective builds for all. Now if these can carry over into PvE then all the more plus. But just increasing cooldowns, removing damage, removing synergy and combos while just increasing cooldowns just means more auto-attacks. So when is the next stage of the balance changes that now addresses the underperforming abilities? I would prefer fun and unbalanced over everyone has an auto-attack. And please don't balance just zerk versus zerk.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:~ snip ~So when is the next stage of the balance changes that now addresses the underperforming abilities?

I think this is the key question. Statements were made to the effect of 4-6 week balance passes, though it’s been 3+ months since the last big one.

Of course there have been one or two skill tweaks for one or two classes, but no significant, or really small changes since.

I am kinda trying to give a pass as the virus has been a large issue, but... It’s not like healthcare: they can work from home.....