DPS meter policy needs to be revised

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

Should we complain because other players can see our character in game too??

"You're entering a group. People will be able to see how you play. Are you okay to let your model, customized character assets and combat statistics be loaded onto other anonymous players clients?"

Dps meter doesnt hijack data, doesnt steal private data. Everything is already here. If you suck people will see it. This translate what they see into numbers and THATS IT .

How can you not realize how ridiculous that sounds? You could tackle the issue on moral grounds like some have been doing but instead you're talking of security issue at presenting stats???

Come on ....

[Kiamu.8295]

DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

Could you cite a game that does allow dps meters and/or other displays of "behavioral data" where players must agree to have said behavioral data be viewed by other players?

The case is that GW2 shares this data with 3rd party tool without our consent or knowledge its happening and refuses to take responsibility for possible harm by this tool. If ArenaNet provided in-game DPS meter that processes data within game client and ArenaNet servers, this would be no issue.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools.

From what I know EU population is bigger than NA population in Tyria. Can't provide link right now.

[Sagramor.7395]

@Warcry.1596 said:

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are.

And those players have every right to set requirements on which player to play with. It's their time after all isn't it?

Again, META Build is not a requirement for purchasing & playing the game.

No it isn't, but it may be a requirement of the players you're grouped with. That's part of playing a multiplayer game.

There are also many raid groups that aren't as specific about builds. I tend to stick to those :) maybe you guys should too.I prefer them because they are much more casual and it doesn't take anything beyond wearing DPS gear and doing mechanics to win raid fights, regardless of how people try to portray raiding to be.

Precisely, but apparently this line of discussion was off topic so I'll leave it at that. ;-)

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Paladine.6082 said:

@Chris Cleary.8017 said:Since this thread has really exploded, and there seems to be some possible misunderstanding about privacy here, I'll comment.

The current implementation of DPS meters is nothing more than a re-presentation of information already being transmitted by the game server to all clients in the reporting radius. Combat data does not have player ownership as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state.

Essentially since the server is running a calculation/simulation based on actions by all the clients in the area, it owns the subsequent reporting of all calculations both literally and legally.

This is different for situations like chat, where there is no impact or simulation necessary and essentially is a forwarding service that the server is simply handling the reporting of the client action.

Regional laws change, if at some point change is required, we will revisit it at that time. I would suggest visiting the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement if you are unsure of anything privacy related for Guild Wars 2.

Are you a lawyer and if not is this an official position you have been asked to publish from the legal team?

I ask because I wrote an article on this yesterday which has been widely distributed in legal circles and experts on data protection/privacy and there is 100% agreement with my points (from regulators who have commented as well). Any information relating to behaviour of a person (irrespective of where or how that data is generated) is legally classed as personal data under EU law - this is not even a case of stretching interpretation - behavioural data is explicitly written into EU law as qualifying as personal data. Combat data is absolutely generated as a result of a person's behaviour and is therefore, without question, legally defined as personal data.

It is not your place to determine what is or what is not personal data - that is a matter established by law, laws which you as a company are obliged to follow or face the penalties provided for not following.

Also under the law User Agreements, End User License Agreements, Terms and Conditions etc. are not legally permitted to be used to relay information on privacy and data protection - a specific privacy notice is required - I suggest you have your legal team read the General Data Protection Regulation, because they clearly haven't.

So if you are not a lawyer or relaying the information at the request of the legal team, I would respectfully request that you provide me with the official contact information for your legal team so I can discuss this further with them. If you are a lawyer or member of the legal team, please contact me via private message so we can continue discussion on a more formal (and less toxic) basis.

I stopped engaging with this thread because frankly the responses were toxic and utterly unqualified to comment, but it is an issue I will be raising in Brussels next week and given the wide agreement from the legal community I will likely file a test case as well at some point in the near future.

And to everyone else, no I will not be engaging any further in this thread, so save your fingers and don't bother trying to bait me :)

Already showed you the EUs definition of what constitutes personal data, Combat data and usernames don’t fall under the definition. Try again though.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Rhanoa.3960 said:Again, META Build is not a requirement for purchasing & playing the game. This is player driven.

And what's wrong with it?

[Aenaos.8160]

@Panda.1967 said:We've seem to be getting a bit off topic here... but the direction the discussion has gone has brought up something rather annoying... Ya'll do realize that this is the only game where people don't seem to grasp the concept that PUGs are random. In any other game it's a perfectly understood concept, if you go to LFG you're party is open to anyone and everyone, if you want to restrict your party you join a guild of like-minded individuals and/or bring friends along. Wish I could say this issue came from refugees from other games, but sadly it didn't. I've played all of the games they came from, some of them I still play, in all of them no one makes requirements in LFG because they understand, LFG is made for PUGs and PUGs are random. Sadly, this problem has existed since GW1, despite the lack of an LFG tool, people would advertise in LFG chat for specific party requirements, sometimes they would simply advertise "LF Elementalist" and get bent out of whack if you're build didn't match meta.

The LFG tool is there for players to form parties according to their preferences.It is a tool that you can use to easily find like minded players without having to spam in chat,and without having tonarrow the pool of potential group members to the confines of a guild.It is not a random match maker where the game automatically pulls players and puts them in random parties.But if you want to join a party with no requirements,you can easily do so.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools.

From what I know EU population is bigger than NA population in Tyria. Can't provide link right now.

EU population is multilanguage and and they have their own forum per language.

Anyway. That wasnt my point.

[Kiamu.8295]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism.

People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they?

[Substatic.6958]

Instead of revising the DPS meter policy, how about they instead strive to not have THE worst PVE balance i've ever seen in an online RPG?

This would probably make things less problematic.

Given their recent answer on power balance, that seems unlikely. Apparently they can't do what a majority of other MMO developers can do.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Kiamu.8295 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

@Kiamu.8295 said:DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job.

Thanks

Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws.

People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism.

People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they?

They're not toxic about the tool. They're toxic to people they believe are inferior to them.

Dps meters arent used in pvp. Is there no toxism there?

[Sagramor.7395]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

Could you cite a game that does allow dps meters and/or other displays of "behavioral data" where players must agree to have said behavioral data be viewed by other players?

The case is that GW2 shares this data with 3rd party tool without our consent or knowledge its happening and refuses to take responsibility for possible harm by this tool. If ArenaNet provided in-game DPS meter that processes data within game client and ArenaNet servers, this would be no issue.

Anet is not explicitly sharing this data with a 3rd party tool. It's data that's already being broadcast to the clients that are capable of reading it in the DPS meter. Nobody is getting the data that doesn't already have it. All that's happening is a parse and display of data that is already being sent to the clients.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

Could you cite a game that does allow dps meters and/or other displays of "behavioral data" where players must agree to have said behavioral data be viewed by other players?

The case is that GW2 shares this data with 3rd party tool without our consent or knowledge its happening and refuses to take responsibility for possible harm by this tool. If ArenaNet provided in-game DPS meter that processes data within game client and ArenaNet servers, this would be no issue.

Anet is not explicitly sharing this data with a 3rd party tool.

It's data that's already being broadcast to the clients

that are capable of reading it in the DPS meter. Nobody is getting the data that doesn't already have it. All that's happening is a parse and display of data that is already being sent to the clients.

And game clients are under protection of ArenaNet and we can always expect their assistance with any problems caused by this. Meanwhile, they allowed 3rd party to use this data (without our consent) and take no responsibility for this. This tool isn't required for correct delivery of the service or game integrity.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

Could you cite a game that does allow dps meters and/or other displays of "behavioral data" where players must agree to have said behavioral data be viewed by other players?

The case is that GW2 shares this data with 3rd party tool without our consent or knowledge its happening and refuses to take responsibility for possible harm by this tool. If ArenaNet provided in-game DPS meter that processes data within game client and ArenaNet servers, this would be no issue.

You consent when you login and when you join groups, since that is the policy on the matter, you can’t say you don’t consent when you do it everytime you are part of a group, and it is not any account information being put into a visual graph it is only data already sent to every player, it is public information.

Again nothing about your account is being monitored, you give consent when joining any group content so you can’t say you didn’t give consent if you join a party.

Also saying well I’m the futures this can happen is a very bad way to base an argument on, Especially when Chris so kindly goes over the 3rd party programs and makes sure they conform to Anets standards, guess what happens when Anet found out about a tool that didn’t comply, this should be easy for you since it was the Tool you Wave a banner of the best Combat Meter ever, oh right they banned him and people still using that tool...

In all honesty they don’t need your consent to display their public data, but they gave you the option of consent since it only shows data from group members.

[Joxer.6024]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

or at the very least require all members of the party to consent to the use of it..ie if 1 has it but the rest don't.. it will only be able to parse that persons own dat.. you want the others then they have to consent, install it and run it, surely that isn't too much of a rocket science request.

I believe maybe it was ESO that had this for addons, not 100% but there was such a game that require ALL to agree.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

I already posted, numerous times if I may add, why changing this policy cannot happen, and why the implementation of the tool is the way it is. I also clearly explained that the alternatives have their own important issues. I even gave the only possible solution: for Anet to create such a tool.Discussing the implementation is pointless due to technical reasons. If they changed their policy they'd need to create a tool themselves, to bypass the shortcomings of any other implementation. The more important one being a tool running on your own computer, so it doesn't "know" when someone gives consent or not.

Therefore the question is "Will (Should) Anet create their own dps meter?"

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

I already posted, numerous times if I may add, why changing this policy cannot happen, and why the implementation of the tool is the way it is. I also clearly explained that the alternatives have their own important issues. I even gave the only possible solution: for Anet to create such a tool.Discussing the implementation is pointless due to technical reasons. If they changed their policy they'd need to create a tool themselves, to bypass the shortcomings of any other implementation. The more important one being a tool running on your own computer, so it doesn't "know" when someone gives consent or not.

Therefore the question is "Will (Should) Anet create their own dps meter?"

Any technical problems are for 3rd party dev to be resolved after the policy is changed. His tool is not required for the game to run or its integrity. If dev can't make his tool compliant to the rules, the tool would be forbidden under he abides to the rules or new, better 3rd party dev presents new, compliant tool.

[Sylvari.2953]

And this is exactly why I only play open world content. People can't kick me out of the map for playing what I truly enjoy, the Celestial Engineer. Meanwhile, I laugh at all the squishy meta freaks who go downed in one hit and then deal less dps than me because they just lie there dead... Pathetic.

[Sagramor.7395]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

Could you cite a game that does allow dps meters and/or other displays of "behavioral data" where players must agree to have said behavioral data be viewed by other players?

The case is that GW2 shares this data with 3rd party tool without our consent or knowledge its happening and refuses to take responsibility for possible harm by this tool. If ArenaNet provided in-game DPS meter that processes data within game client and ArenaNet servers, this would be no issue.

Anet is not explicitly sharing this data with a 3rd party tool.

It's data that's already being broadcast to the clients

that are capable of reading it in the DPS meter. Nobody is getting the data that doesn't already have it. All that's happening is a parse and display of data that is already being sent to the clients.

And game clients are under protection of ArenaNet and we can always expect their assistance with any problems caused by this. Meanwhile, they allowed 3rd party to use this data (without our consent) and take no responsibility for this. This tool isn't required for correct delivery of the service or game integrity.

What responsibility are you expecting anet to take here? What exactly should they be responsible for?

[Coconut.7082]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sagramor.7395 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action.

As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet.

As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play.

This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default.

This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data.

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

Could you cite a game that does allow dps meters and/or other displays of "behavioral data" where players must agree to have said behavioral data be viewed by other players?

The case is that GW2 shares this data with 3rd party tool without our consent or knowledge its happening and refuses to take responsibility for possible harm by this tool. If ArenaNet provided in-game DPS meter that processes data within game client and ArenaNet servers, this would be no issue.

Anet is not explicitly sharing this data with a 3rd party tool.

It's data that's already being broadcast to the clients

that are capable of reading it in the DPS meter. Nobody is getting the data that doesn't already have it. All that's happening is a parse and display of data that is already being sent to the clients.

And game clients are under protection of ArenaNet and we can always expect their assistance with any problems caused by this.

Can you specify what problems can be caused by ArcDPS?

[Feanor.2358]

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rhanoa.3960 said:

You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are.

And those players have every right to set requirements on which player to play with. It's their time after all isn't it?

Again, META Build is not a requirement for purchasing & playing the game. This is player driven.

Again, it's my time. If I want to play with folks using meta builds, that's my decision. You don't get to make it, ANet's marketing doesn't get to make it, Angela Merkel doesn't get to make it, I and only I do. And if you're not willing to do so, you won't be playing with me. Get that already. It doesn't matter if I kick you or I leave, you won't be in my party. If you want to play it your way - which you have every right to do - do it in another party. Why is that simple concept so hard to grasp?

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.

I already posted, numerous times if I may add, why changing this policy cannot happen, and why the implementation of the tool is the way it is. I also clearly explained that the alternatives have their own important issues. I even gave the only possible solution: for Anet to create such a tool.Discussing the implementation is pointless due to technical reasons. If they changed their policy they'd need to create a tool themselves, to bypass the shortcomings of any other implementation. The more important one being a tool running on your own computer, so it doesn't "know" when someone gives consent or not.

Therefore the question is "Will (Should) Anet create their own dps meter?"

Any technical problems are for 3rd party dev to be resolved after the policy is changed. His tool is not required for the game to run or its integrity. If dev can't make his tool compliant to the rules, the tool would be forbidden under he abides to the rules or new, better 3rd party dev presents new, compliant tool.

Thats implying they should change their policy in the first place.You're talking like it "had" to happen but you would need to convince people as to why in the first place. You cant always hide behind security of information non sense.

[Panda.1967]

@Aenaos.8160 said:

@Panda.1967 said:We've seem to be getting a bit off topic here... but the direction the discussion has gone has brought up something rather annoying... Ya'll do realize that this is the only game where people don't seem to grasp the concept that PUGs are random. In any other game it's a perfectly understood concept, if you go to LFG you're party is open to anyone and everyone, if you want to restrict your party you join a guild of like-minded individuals and/or bring friends along. Wish I could say this issue came from refugees from other games, but sadly it didn't. I've played all of the games they came from, some of them I still play, in all of them no one makes requirements in LFG because they understand, LFG is made for PUGs and PUGs are random. Sadly, this problem has existed since GW1, despite the lack of an LFG tool, people would advertise in LFG chat for specific party requirements, sometimes they would simply advertise "LF Elementalist" and get bent out of whack if you're build didn't match meta.

The LFG tool is there for players to form parties according to their preferences.It is a tool that you can use to easily find like minded players without having to spam in chat,and without having tonarrow the pool of potential group members to the confines of a guild.It is not a random match maker where the game automatically pulls players and puts them in random parties.But if you want to join a party with no requirements,you can easily do so.

Which is fine, when people actually put their requirements in their advertisement. But when people post things such as "LF (insert class here)" they are leaving themselves open to anyone playing that class to join. Even worse, is that there are quite a few people who believe that a blank LFG listing = meta required. If you leave your LFG blank, you have set no rules, and it is automatically assumed to be CASUAL by the vast majority of the community. If you intended to have rules and you leave your LFG blank and someone joins who doesn't fit your unlisted rules, CHANGE YOUR LFG LISTING.

The issue I see with people's "requirements" is that people post completely vague requirements that leave them open to tons of builds that do not fit with the requirements that they actually have. If you say "LF Mesmer" and I join on my mesmer, but you don't want me because I'm not running Chrono, it's not my fault for joining based on your posted requirements, if you wanted Chrono you should have posted "LF Chrono" then I wouldn't have joined in the first place. If you post a blank LFG listing and I join on Core Ranger and you don't want rangers, who's at fault? Not me, you didn't post any requirements.

But still, the fact remains, LFG is for PUGs. You may be able to get people who fit you're requirements in builds with restrictions posted in your LFG, but you have to accept the fact that you have been joined by randoms. Their DPS output and skill level is never guaranteed to be up to the level you expect. The only way to ensure your party reaches your standards is to pre-build your party out of other players that you know, AKA friends and guildmates. In a PUG you will always have an element of randomness that is completely out of your control. You will rarely ever get a group that completely meets your expectations when using LFG. In most games, when LFG is used to find people of specific builds, it's almost always used to fill the last few slots after putting together the rest of the party out of friends and guildmates.