STOP buffing necro in wvw

[Ya Ya Yeah.7381]

Didn't they remove the cripple from the shades a while back? If so, just move away. I still say just wait and see what happens, I don't think the shades will be much of big deal unless you are running glass builds then of course, its gonna hurt.

[Atticus.7194]

@"Crazy.6029" said:Didn't they remove the cripple from the shades a while back? If so, just move away. I still say just wait and see what happens, I don't think the shades will be much of big deal unless you are running glass builds then of course, its gonna hurt.

when there's 20 scourges all dropping shades"just move away... from the game and you won't get hit!"brilliant

[schokelmei.8271]

@senki.1046 said:

@nomak.8693 said:What is OP smoking? The Necro class has been getting nerfs after nerfs for past year and now finally gets something good, something that already had actually and ppl cry about it? Lol.

i think you are smoking something here. cause necro is already too powerful in wvw squad fights. look at squads, they consist of at least 40% necros. this is surely not balanced. and they deal already most dps without the buffs.

So is Firebrand. Can we get some major nerfs for this too? I mean I'm fine with the Necro nerfs and I totally think the actual buffs are stupid, but that's not a one-sided affair in WvW. There are always two issues: One is the # of scourges and two is always Firebrands. Still Firebrands never get really touched at all.

[Ya Ya Yeah.7381]

@Atticus.7194 said:

@"Crazy.6029" said:Didn't they remove the cripple from the shades a while back? If so, just move away. I still say just wait and see what happens, I don't think the shades will be much of big deal unless you are running glass builds then of course, its gonna hurt.

when there's 20 scourges all dropping shades"just move away... from the game and you won't get hit!"brilliant

Ok, So , what your are saying is the balance with necros are ok, its just the fact that there will be so many of them (hypothetically, cause we haven't even seen the patch). Isn't that a player made problem? Also, from what I read and have been hearing there are gonna be more tempests back in action, just bring a few more eles to the fight for cleanses, if your saying the hypothetical 20 scourges will be to much condi?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I have never been refused entry on a Hammer Herald, Medi-Scrapper or Support Tempest. Not once. Ever. I've been asked to bring one over the other depending on what the group needed (DPS vs. sustain vs. sneak gyro) but, don't create a narrative that the only way to gain entry to a squad is by playing Scourge or FB because it is factually false.

That is, because you are nice person maybe :) Or maybe not focused as muich on optimization. Other commanders do not think the same way. You might even be limited in your choice of guilds to join, because demand for other classes isn't as high.That's not to say it is impossible. But it is easier.

That's fair. I do believe my server has a great host of commanders willing to run open tag. Still, I find it hard to believe a commander would refuse a meta build, which doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just I can't see it as being common. I have literally been on Discord when a player asked what was wanted, and between Scourge or a sustain class, the Commander asked them to bring sustain. There is such a thing as too many Scourges.

That said I am in support of this change solely because ANET majorly shafted PvE Scourges when they changed this mechanic, which was exclusively designed to solve a problem in WvW. It should never have happened and I'm glad they reverted. Now, they need to find a way to adjust this mechanic so it isn't as oppressive as it was before last December.

There is talk about them changing the target cap. Fine. I'm of the opinion they should drastically reduce the co-efficients for the damage surrounding the player vs. that of their shade. Can that even be done? I don't know. But I think that would be a better fix for WvW, as Scourges get to benefit from the utility their shades produce while not being able to do maximum DPS just by running at you...all the while not kicking PvE Scourges in the junk at the same time.

[Atticus.7194]

@Crazy.6029 said:

@Atticus.7194 said:

@Crazy.6029 said:Didn't they remove the cripple from the shades a while back? If so, just move away. I still say just wait and see what happens, I don't think the shades will be much of big deal unless you are running glass builds then of course, its gonna hurt.

when there's 20 scourges all dropping shades"just move away... from the game and you won't get hit!"brilliant

Ok, So , what your are saying is the balance with necros are ok, its just the fact that there will be so many of them (hypothetically, cause we haven't even seen the patch). Isn't that a player made problem? Also, from what I read and have been hearing there are gonna be more tempests back in action, just bring a few more eles to the fight for cleanses, if your saying the hypothetical 20 scourges will be to much condi?

You don't understand at all how bad scourge spam used to be, their aoe boon removal/corruption, condi spam, damage spike, barrier application shade dropping is so good when you're dealing with clumped up blobs of players that they push everything else out of the meta because nothing is even as close to good vs and with a ton of players. And yes it is a player made problem, one that ArenaNet needs to consider since players will most often play the most effective class in a competitive situation, and right now that's already scourges and in the future will OVERWHELMINGLY be scourges.

So no, these changes are bad and will ruin everything if they go forward as they are.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Galmac.4680 said:Nope, Necro isn't ANsts favorite class. We got nerfs in EVERY recent balance patch, and all are screaming here as we got finally a little change revert. Our AOEs are nerfed and necros can't spam that amount of conditions as long time before. You complain about groups of 20 necros, but have you met a group of 20 thiefs, rangers, mesmer, revs? Imagine that and think about that.

There is a very good reason why 20 rev's in a group would be worthless. One of which is it would be almost entirely condi to deal with the condition spam and with a good batch of guardians, necromancers and warriors the rev's would be spanked so hard. If its power rev? Lol? Like what is it gonna do try to teleport into a blob and die. The class doesn't give the kinda oomph guardians and necromancers give~ Scourge broke the game and will do so once again.

When PoF launched I remember how BAD WvW got with the kinda shenanigans, where a single scourge could in theory just nuke four people and be obnoxious to kill even with condi removal. And this was back when classes like warrior and power rev who excelled at fighting them and killing them with high burst were in better places than they are now, Scourge is still strong as is necromancer as a whole it needed some fine tuning but this.... ? This is gonna replicate the PoF train....

[SWI.4127]

@nthmetal.9652 said:If we have these shade changes, in order ESPECIALLY for melee classes to still be useful, we do need further changes to complement the scourge changes. If it is truly the intention to buff scourges, the result will be that we have more AoEs. That by itself is difficult enough, as in the past WvW servers have shown not to be able to handle this kind of mechanic very well. These AoEs bring additional fear and chill and possible cripple and other hard or soft-cc conditions. Now combine this change with reduced stability across the board, it will lead to melee being derived of options to act, especially if we have size differences between zergs.

So if this is the way to go, can we please also buff stability and resistance again, to make up for this change? I know, we're turning in circles, it's not where I'd like to see things move, but these are the consequences we need if we're to head down this path.

IMO the last thing this mode needs is even more defensive boons, as you alluded to when you said we're turning in circles. In our current (pre-patch) meta, Scourges are used for corrupts mainly, and the damage and barrier is just icing on the cake. The issue is that you need a certain amount of scourges to even break through the boon ball, otherwise you're just not going to do any damage or CC. Warrior is really the only other class that can deal with the boon spam. If there wasn't so much boon spam, then I believe people might naturally drift away from using so many scourges, because that amount of corruption would be redundant.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Atticus.7194 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Atticus.7194 said:

@GummyBearSummoner.7941 said:Why do people get upset when necro finally gets something good?

Finally?? Have you played playing scourge in the last 4 years in WvW?? They've dominated the mode to the point they actually broke the meta for YEARS.

PoF (hence scourge) came out in 22nd of September, 2017. Bit hard for the spec to... Dominate for 4 years.

Oh kitten 3 years and 9 months, that is SUPER RELEVANT.

You might want to check your maths again there bud.

[Potatoface.1287]

@senki.1046 said:Can you please stop buffing necro in wvw? Like give other dps classes a chance to join a squad. Now wvw will be plagued with scourges all over the place. It will be an aoe boredom sneeze fest again in wvw, red circles everywhere with faster cooldowns. WVW is the only game mode i'm interested and why you devs don't know how to handle the classes properly in wvw? Come on please don't add the necro buffs in wvw. Make them for PVP and PVE only.

let's buff thief instead, you like that stealth dont you?

[Black Storm.6974]

It is a good thing that the Shade change will be reverted. It was especially bad for PvP, since it made “impossible” to make Scourge healer/support “viable” (viable = at least decent).Scourge needed to place its Shades to offer some support from range, it could not stay to support in melee range and survive. Then, after the Shade placement it was basically defenceless. It could not work.

The changed mechanic was in general really clunky and made Scourge defence unreliable.It can be seen as a great problem for the profession, since Scourge was supposed to bring support to Necromancer.

Now, if that will cause problems in WvW, they can think to a better way to adjust Scourge. I support that, I don’t want to play any “broken” profession.Anyway, it could be important to remember that what you think could be a good adjustment for WvW could be really bad for PvP and/or PvE. It is not something simple to address, it will require to think deeply about every game mode.

[Destro.9871]

@"Black Storm.6974" said:It is a good thing that the Shade change will be reverted. It was especially bad for PvP, since it made “impossible” to make Scourge healer/support “viable” (viable = at least decent).Scourge needed to place its Shades to offer some support from range, it could not stay to support in melee range and survive. Then, after the Shade placement it was basically defenceless. It could not work.

The changed mechanic was in general really clunky and made Scourge defence unreliable.It can be seen as a great problem for the profession, since Scourge was supposed to bring support to Necromancer.

Now, if that will cause problems in WvW, they can think to a better way to adjust Scourge. I support that, I don’t want to play any “broken” profession.Anyway, it could be important to remember that what you think could be a good adjustment for WvW could be really bad for PvP and/or PvE. It is not something simple to address, it will require to think deeply about every game mode.

Lets disregard the point that every class has a "supportive trait line" and it's impossible to make every class viable at doing so. So its important that we make necros be able to do this even if that ruins the game mode for pvp and wvw. At the same time less disregard the fact that there are plenty of other support specs that are far under performing that even if we buffed them it wouldn't have the same chilling effect as this change. Lets also disregard the fact that at least necro already has builds and roles in pvp and wvw on other specs, yet some of those other classes that have under perfoming support trait lines don't have any roles at all under any specs.

[XenesisII.1540]

It's not a player made problem, it's anet, pushing mass corruption to one class, boon denial to another, while having massive boon spam game play. If they bothered to spread boon corruption around like they do with boon spamming then maybe you wouldn't see 20 scourges in a zerg. We just make use of what they want us to play, if they want boon spam, mass corruption, mass aoes, then so be it, enjoy the red ring dance tomorrow.

[Black Storm.6974]

@Destro.9871 said:

@"Black Storm.6974" said:It is a good thing that the Shade change will be reverted. It was especially bad for PvP, since it made “impossible” to make Scourge healer/support “viable” (viable = at least decent).Scourge needed to place its Shades to offer some support from range, it could not stay to support in melee range and survive. Then, after the Shade placement it was basically defenceless. It could not work.

The changed mechanic was in general really clunky and made Scourge defence unreliable.It can be seen as a great problem for the profession, since Scourge was supposed to bring support to Necromancer.

Now, if that will cause problems in WvW, they can think to a better way to adjust Scourge. I support that, I don’t want to play any “broken” profession.Anyway, it could be important to remember that what you think could be a good adjustment for WvW could be really bad for PvP and/or PvE. It is not something simple to address, it will require to think deeply about every game mode.

Lets disregard the point that every class has a "supportive trait line" and it's impossible to make every class viable at doing so. So its important that we make necros be able to do this even if that ruins the game mode for pvp and wvw. At the same time less disregard the fact that there are plenty of other support specs that are far under performing that even if we buffed them it wouldn't have the same chilling effect as this change. Lets also disregard the fact that at least necro already has builds and roles in pvp and wvw on other specs, yet some of those other classes that have under perfoming support trait lines don't have any roles at all under any specs.

I have a threshold for what I consider “viable” far lower than most people I read here. Making every support Elite Spec “viable” is definitely possible and I hope every profession can get that. I don’t want them to become what people consider “META”.

You are just pushing for “low quality balance”, and that don’t benefit anyone. “Problems” can be solved, it just requires to not be too superficial.

[Aeolus.3615]

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@senki.1046 said:

@nomak.8693 said:What is OP smoking? The Necro class has been getting nerfs after nerfs for past year and now finally gets something good, something that already had actually and ppl cry about it? Lol.

i think you are smoking something here. cause necro is already too powerful in wvw squad fights. look at squads, they consist of at least 40% necros. this is surely not balanced. and they deal already most dps without the buffs.

So is Firebrand. Can we get some major nerfs for this too? I mean I'm fine with the Necro nerfs and I totally think the actual buffs are stupid, but that's not a one-sided affair in WvW. There are always two issues: One is the # of scourges and two is always Firebrands. Still Firebrands never get really touched at all.

IMO FB now can be somewaht more stronger with the heal on block, didnte they changed retreat to a amunition based skill as well?

[schokelmei.8271]

The issue is that there is one class that's viable in that defensive, heal role that outshines every other already and that's Firebrand. It's even the best choice for commanders. That's basically the same you have with Scourge for corrupts.I don't understand why Scourges and Firebrand should be the #1 choice for it while everyone else is mediocre at best. I can understand, at least a bit, that they try to keep Scourge important, because Scourge is utterly useless in the whole rest of the game, but why not touching Firebrand is beyond me, because it's in a great spot everywhere and not only in WvW.

[Kylar.2046]

Can we stop with the doom and gloom about shades? It will not be anywhere near as bad as the last time scourges had shades on both the necro and the casted shade. Since then there have been considerable nerfs to it's damage.

December 03, 2019
This skill no longer inflicts cripple in all game modes

February 25, 2020 Competitive content update:(competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 0.666 to 0.1. Reduced torment duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.

February 25, 2020 Competitive content update:(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.45 to 0.3.

That's like a, I'm going to say, 80% damage nerf to F1-4 and 33% on F5, as well as losing the soft cc to keep you in the shades and half the torment for condis. Since Feb, the top damage for power scourges is well of suffering by far, followed by some combination of well of corruption, unholy feast/unholy burst, devouring darkness, breach, then maybe desert shroud. (other skills do appear in the top few sometimes, but i'm generalizing.)

The target cap, is 5 per shade still, so in many cases that means 5-10 (I'm giving the small shade people the benefit of the doubt that they can hit 10 people with multiple shades at the same time) enemy players hit per use of F1-5 and now 5 friendly effects. The main exception being scourges dropping shades on themselves as enemy zergs move into melee range.

You all act like scourges couldn't get melee shades before this patch. If a shade wasn't dropped scourges used F1-5 anyways. If you use cc like you should before running into zergs, the effect will likely be the same. Stun the scourge and they can't drop a shade before F1-5. Stability overall is down, and for most scourges, the only stunbreak they're running is trail of anguish which has a 40s cooldown if traited. It's not that hard to cc scourges.

Also for all the people talking about shade corruption, that's 3 traitlines to corrupt 2-3 boons. That's a lot of no utility traits, no damage traits, and no support traits, or less corrupting if they choose the other traits, that's a heavy investment.

What will be op is the fact that wells and shades will have similar cooldowns and can be dropped at the same time for bigger well bombs more often. I'll find it fun while it exists, like when meteors hit for 20k but in a different sense. Scourge is currently boring to play but needed for the corrupts, a little something extra will be nice.

But really, leave the shades alone, necro has little to no group utility, give them back this without so much complaining.

[Voltekka.2375]

@Warlord.9074 said:Everyone is complaining about the shade revert like that was the only bad decision.It's not like making wells baseline, giving them a free grand master basically does any harm.It's not like giving them permanent barrier in wvw, if they ran bloodmagic in wvw because you can never be overhealed in zergs.It's not like giving Necros permanent quickness in WvW zergs is bad either.These changes are literally the worst thing ANET coud of done to WVW and it take them 6 months to do this.So essentially you are now faster, unkillable, can spam wells and shades all over, and you have even more boonrip and perma quickness.

Great patch. Necro needed this. WvW needed this.

Lol at blobscourge run blood magic in wvw