Constructs and Mechanics that lead to the Death of the Game.

[Seera.5916]

I don't see that the cons of the current system outweigh the cons of the system you wish was in place.

With fewer waypoints and/or no mounts a call for help at a world boss or bounty may not get enough people there because by the time they arrive the thing is either dead or timer done.

It means less time getting to what you want to do in game and to actually do it.

I'd be less inclined to find a safe spot to chat if I had longer distances to travel due to your system. Because the time I spend chatting is time whatever I want to do might happen or end.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@lokh.2695 said:I see merit in your thoughts. However, in this game players are, as I see it, led by events, not the waypoints. Sure the waypoints get you to where an event happens, but people don't stick around a waypoint. It's like a train/bus station. You don't live at the bus station near you home or work at the bus station near your office, but it is where you cross paths with people. You meet another set of people, people you interact with for more time and more intense either at home or at work.

Core maps have many waypoints, where this analogy holds up better. New maps on the other hand, seem to be more railroaded through eventchains on the other hand.

The complete picture is that all things that involve an interaction of some kind have a density. Events, Waypoints, Vendors...just like your analogy about buses and train stations, office and work...those places in real life are analogous to those in guild wars 2...where some places have a higher interaction density than others.

Just to build on your analogy, a party, bar or club has a higher density of interaction than a Walmart for example, where you can count on average, the amount of times one person will interact with another person, and then weigh the two with one another. In some cases, Walmart could have a higher population density than a party or a club, but there are instances where the higher population in Walmart will have a lower interaction density, simply because less people interact with each other there than they would at a club.

So different places will have different interaction density's depending on whether those places actually encourage social interaction. This is the observation i'm pointing out in the OP. It's not a big problem until the convenience becomes too much. In many cases, having tighter population densities (like in parties or clubs) can lead to greater interaction densities by virtue of simply being closer to other people. But even if everyone is close to each other, a party can have a low interaction density if say, everyone is on their phone rather than actually participating in the party...This is what we observe in places like LA, where people don't interact with each other but with NPC's.

[Swagger.1459]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

So how would the removal of waypoints, mounts, and other conveniences prevent the game from dying, increase total active users, and increase revenue?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Swagger.1459 said:@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

So how would the removal of waypoints, mounts, and other conveniences prevent the game from dying, increase total active users, and increase revenue?

Anet is at least trying to take steps in the right direction...even if they aren't addressing the problem directly, changes they are making have so far been in line with fixing player interaction. Now i don't think they are addressing the problem directly, otherwise waypoints and mounts would have been removed a long time ago...but mounts have been nerfed repeatedly in WvW so that roaming can come back...but they are reluctant to actually remove it, and so long as it's there providing it's faster than normal speed boost to bypass content, it will always be a problem in the game mode.

As for PVE, it's not just waypoints and mounts...it's an amalgamation of many many mechanisms that have built a construct. This construct is self full-filling, in that the convenience further reinforces behaviors that desire more convenience over social interaction. like @Ashen.2907 said, if you remove waypoints and nothing else, it won't increase interaction because the open world pve doesn't encourage it (generally).

So the waypoints are one mechanic of many mechanics that need to be addressed in order to change the construct that those mechanics have built over the years. When we talk above increasing total active users, that will naturally increase revenue, and so the goal would be to just achieve more active users, which in turn prevents the game from dying. It's not just the removal of convenience that will solve that problem. It also requires increase in social interaction densities...And there's a number of ways one could go about this. You can use your imagination...but the idea is getting people to actually interact with each other and not look at the phone every 5 minutes...building something (relationships) that are everlasting rather than a temporary cheap high via game design. I'm sure you can connect these analogies with their in-game equivalents.

[Swagger.1459]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

So how would the removal of waypoints, mounts, and other conveniences prevent the game from dying, increase total active users, and increase revenue?

Anet is at least trying to take steps in the right direction...even if they aren't addressing the problem directly, changes they are making have so far been in line with fixing player interaction. Now i don't think they are addressing the problem directly, otherwise waypoints and mounts would have been removed a long time ago...but mounts have been nerfed repeatedly in WvW so that roaming can come back...but they are reluctant to actually remove it, and so long as it's there providing it's faster than normal speed boost to bypass content, it will always be a problem in the game mode.

As for PVE, it's not just waypoints and mounts...it's an amalgamation of many many mechanisms that have built a construct. This construct is self full-filling, in that the convenience further reinforces behaviors that desire more convenience over social interaction. like @Ashen.2907 said, if you remove waypoints and nothing else, it won't increase interaction because the open world pve doesn't encourage it (generally).

So the waypoints are one mechanic of many mechanics that need to be addressed in order to change the construct that those mechanics have built over the years. When we talk above increasing total active users, that will naturally increase revenue, and so the goal would be to just achieve more active users, which in turn prevents the game from dying. It's not just the removal of convenience that will solve that problem. It also requires increase in social interaction densities...And there's a number of ways one could go about this. You can use your imagination...but the idea is getting people to actually interact with each other and not look at the phone every 5 minutes...building something (relationships) that are everlasting rather than a temporary cheap high via game design. I'm sure you can connect these analogies with their in-game equivalents.

All that doesn’t answer those specific questions.

[Trise.2865]

@kharmin.7683 said:Sorry, I kinda glossed over at the first diagram. What problem is this attempting to fix?

Clearly he needs new hair styles and buttcapes.

[Hesione.9412]

What is the problem that requires solving?

What on earth has complexity theory got to do with the supposed problem?

Assuming there is a place for complexity theory, what emergent behaviours do you expect would happen with no waypoints?

Don't assume that you're the only one reading the forums who is working with complexity theory.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

It would seem that Waypoints would bring more players together than having none.
Game says: 'Hey, great event happening here at X. Hurry over for great rewards!"Players use Waypoint, congregate at event.Players don't use Waypoints, each take their own path to X; some make it in time, some don't.

Or, the premise is: if there were no Waypoints, players would interact on the way to wherever.
Well, it's not often that a Waypoint is right next to wherever a player wants to go; where are all those interactions that stem from travel from a Waypoint that congregates more players in the same location? If Waypoints are the reason there is no player interaction?

And, why isn't there more interaction between players since there are events requiring several players that wait for said events to begin? I mean, if proximity is all that's required to avoid 'the death of the game'?

[Swagger.1459]

So how would the devs tailor the message of removing these conveniences? Would it be like...

Hey valued players! X____X dev here, we've got some big new to share today! After careful consideration and discussion we have decided to remove all mounts, waypoints, and other quick travel conveniences from the game, all in an effort for this great community, new and old, to interact and socialize more. Combined, we know that you all have have paid a ton of money, traded in tons of game currencies, and spent a ton of time obtaining convenience items in-game, but we feel that the potential social interaction is well worth sacrificing these conveniences.

Effective XX/XX/XXXX all mounts, waypoints, and other convenience items will be removed from the game.

Good luck! And enjoy your new found friends and relationships!

See you in Tyria!

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Obviously, 'the death of the world' is nigh, as everyone is 'looking at their phones' now. ;)

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:And, why isn't there more interaction between players since there are events requiring several players that wait for said events to begin?

I actually observe that more interaction does occur while people wait for events. The events themselves also feature interaction, especially if the events are actually difficult. One issue however is that once an event fails, it's failed for good, and this actually hinders people interacting further in order to try and overcome that failure. This is why in strike missions I notice, that people will interact way more with one another, than any other content I've played in the game (aside from WvW and SPVP). In addition, typing while playing is also a mechanic that isn't exactly suited for interaction during an encounter that requires a lot more brain capacity allocated to motor functions rather than conversation...but so long as there is that reprieve in between engagements, helps build social interaction in between these engagements.

I mean, if proximity is all that's required to avoid 'the death of the game'?

Proximity isn't the only requirement. It's a mixture of population density and interaction density, and both are actually necessary for the system to have positive, socially emergent behavior to work. @lokh.2695 said this quiet well with his analogy and I said this in the OP, and you can see it in the images in the OP, that waypoints in their own right aren't a bad thing...but its the amalgamation of all the mechanics that amplify convenience and instant gratification that build a construct that leads to less social interaction, in which waypoints are part of this amplified process.

[Swagger.1459]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:And, why isn't there more interaction between players since there are events requiring several players that wait for said events to begin?

I actually observe that more interaction does occur while people wait for events. The events themselves also feature interaction, especially if the events are actually difficult. One issue however is that once an event fails, it's failed for good, and this actually hinders people interacting further in order to try and overcome that failure. This is why in strike missions I notice, that people will interact way more with one another, than any other content I've played in the game (aside from WvW and SPVP). In addition, typing while playing is also a mechanic that isn't exactly suited for interaction during an encounter that requires a lot more brain capacity allocated to motor functions rather than conversation...but so long as there is that reprieve in between engagements, helps build social interaction in between these engagements.

I mean, if proximity is all that's required to avoid 'the death of the game'?

Proximity isn't the only requirement. It's a mixture of population density and interaction density, and both are actually necessary for the system to have positive, socially emergent behavior to work. @lokh.2695 said this quiet well with his analogy and I said this in the OP, and you can see it in the images in the OP, that waypoints in their own right aren't a bad thing...but its the amalgamation of all the mechanics that amplify convenience and instant gratification that build a construct that leads to less social interaction, in which waypoints are part of this amplified process.

Make a guild of like-minded individuals and don’t worry about what other customers are doing with their time.

You are not changing the player base or behaviors. And the devs aren’t removing these convenience things from the game.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Swagger.1459 said:So how would the devs tailor the message of removing these conveniences? Would it be like...

Hey valued players! X____X dev here, we've got some big new to share today! After careful consideration and discussion we have decided to remove all mounts, waypoints, and other quick travel conveniences from the game, all in an effort for this great community, new and old, to interact and socialize more. Combined, we know that you all have have paid a ton of money, traded in tons of game currencies, and spent a ton of time obtaining convenience items in-game, but we feel that the potential social interaction is well worth sacrificing these conveniences.

Effective XX/XX/XXXX all mounts, waypoints, and other convenience items will be removed from the game.

Good luck! And enjoy your new found friends and relationships!

See you in Tyria!

And this here is where we are unveiling the construct. Over the years Anet has built an entire system on these mechanics. And these mechanics are centered towards instant gratification. To remove them so abruptly on a system built on it, leads to catastrophic failures in other places...mainly the uproar in removing mounts from PVE now, rather than not even introducing them from the beginning, means you'll have a serious revolt of players that have spent real money and time into these instant gratification mechanics.

It's like taking the candy away from the baby., The baby will cry...for minutes...maybe hours even. But over the long term, The baby will eventually grow out of eating candy, and the adult version of the baby's teeth will be glad that they didn't eat that candy into adulthood.

But surely as an adult if all your teeth are black and rotting because of mistakes made decades ago, its easy to look back in hindsight to say you shouldn't have eaten candy for the majority of adolescent life.

The exodus of guilds due to a number of mechanics that built a construct in WvW (such as server stacking) has now lead to the death of the game mode. In PVE it's not too late...but we are getting there pretty fast.

[Fuchslein.8639]

Excuse you.You put so much work into a thread and pictures that most people here probably didn't even read (including me) because you met a supposed billionaire in an airbnb (find the mistake) and now draw some causality regarding gw2?Wow this is wild.

I'm really curious to see how this all here continues.

[Swagger.1459]

Just bring honest here.

You’re not going to change players and the devs aren’t going to change the game in the ways you want. Your only option to ensuring the type of social interaction you want is make your own guild and make friends to play with consistently.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Swagger.1459" said:Just bring honest here.

Your "honesty" isn't constructive. I'm just here pointing out the possibility that systems Anet has created is killing their own game. Decreasing playerbase reports, Low marketing presence and decrease in sales all point to this, I'm just putting the pieces together.

Maybe you have a different theory to explain why the game is dying? Or perhaps you don't believe the game is dying at all. Then you have to explain the constant decline in the above. If you are about rational discussion, feel free to explain and i'll humor you. But stop reverting towards personal attacks that are irrelevant to the discussion.

[yann.1946]

While I agree with the general idea that conviences in general negatively impact social interaction.

Their is not really a solution in removing gameplay mechanics. You can't really reduce convinience without pissing of the playerbase.

[Swagger.1459]

And there isn't any value in removing mounts that players spent time on, or mount skins that players spent money on (or converted their game gold for), or removing waypoints, or removing whatever convenience items the devs have provided... Nor is there any value for the devs to cut out a portion or their revenue, while also alienating players who have already invested time, money, and game currencies into certain convenience items.

[Swagger.1459]

And it's pretty far reaching to correlate mounts and waypoints with the state of the game.

[Randulf.7614]

@"Swagger.1459" said:And it's pretty far reaching to correlate mounts and waypoints with the state of the game.

I largely agree.

The Skyscale has probably done more to change the game than anything else because it is so easy to skip over content, but there are prob more positives that outweigh any potential negatives that it brought

Neither waypoints (which have been in since the beginning and can thus be absolutely excluded from any argument they contribute to the game "dying") or mounts have been to the detriment of the game. That latter has certainly changed it dramatically and given it a huge boost to content, player goals and Anets finances, but not to its detriment at all.

There are plenty of reasons why the game might be considered by some "dying" or lesser than it was (age of game, neglect of modes, constant directional changes, poor story, lower map quality, performance issues, grind and so forth), but conveniences are not one of them. Conveniences generally extend the life of a game as the wider audience demands them and gamers in general today have increasinly lower tolerances for things that make life less convenient.

I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions made in the OP about lack of cooperation or convenience over communication. The game has worked better than most MMO's in terms of how it is structured for cooperation. I'm not sure I agree about a lack of communication beyond the general disentegration the internet brings in genertal. Certainly more people are actively playing rather than hanging round a single spot like the old mmo days and that's a good thing

[mezuzel.4987]

@Swagger.1459 said:And it's pretty far reaching to correlate mounts and waypoints with the state of the game.

Agreed. OP seems to be claiming that we'd be having more conversations while running to objectives. But in my experience, if you're running to an objective, you're having to dodge and combat the mobs that are in the way. That's not conducive to typing out a conversation at the same time.

If you look at PoF maps, with far fewer waypoints than core Tyria in order to make mount use more meaningful to players, are people having more conversations on the way to objectives? Not that I've seen. Again, you're busy either avoiding or combating the mobs along the way.

There is most certainly a point to be made about game mechanics encouraging social behavior, something I think GW2 does quite well with its emphasis on cooperation over competition, but I am completely unconvinced that waypoints and mounts are part of it.

[Ashen.2907]

For me the thing that interferes with chatting, in game at least, out in the field is not the convenience of a single, or even a multitude, of features. Its the fact that action playstyle requires that I be playing, not typing. None of which matters as the chatting is going on, just in discord or some other voice chat software. What seems to be the topic in the OP is an attempt to make something out as a problem needing a solution without any grounds to support the supposition.

[Swagger.1459]

“Aside from the above being a social issue”

Customers can do what they want, when they want. Nobody has to interact with anyone. And there are plenty of players interacting in the game at all times.

Stop making up issues and claiming the game is dead because of things like mounts and waypoints.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Ashen.2907" said:For me the thing that interferes with chatting, in game at least, out in the field is not the convenience of a single, or even a multitude, of features. Its the fact that action playstyle requires that I be playing, not typing. None of which matters as the chatting is going on, just in discord or some other voice chat software. What seems to be the topic in the OP is an attempt to make something out as a problem needing a solution without any grounds to support the supposition.

Well...i've thought about whether the theory that "everyone is in discord" was the cause of such problems...and just my experience in discords, to which I've been apart of many, is that discord chat is way less interaction than in the game, because of the relative frequency of activity that occur in discord are still proportionately less than activity that occurs in chats...which they themselves are proportionally lower in comparison to the overall population of a certain area.

So for every 10 or so interactions in discord that happen in a day in a 300 person server, in a 500 man guild has 30-50 active online members at any given time through out that day...and so the frequency of interactions is some proportion higher in guild chat in comparison to discord chat...for many guilds i'm sure this proportionality is somewhat universal. Some guilds have higher actual in-game participation, especially WvW guilds (which have been waning for years now and it's on its death throws). But the above leads me to believe that, most players aren't actually on discord partaking in actual interactions that involve gw2, more-so than they would be interacting if they were just in the game. Since both are proportionally low in comparison to the population, I'm just putting 2 and 2 together that discord isn't the main tool of communication over just simply typing in the game.

[Seera.5916]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"mezuzel.4987" said:Agreed. OP seems to be claiming that we'd be having more conversations while running to objectives.But in my experience, if you're running to an objective, you're having to dodge and combat the mobs that are in the way. That's not conducive to typing out a >conversation at the same time.

This isn't exactly what i said, so ill elaborate so you can understand what I'm saying more clearly. The point is that, because waypoints exist, the chance that you will engage in a meaningful interaction with another human being from point A to point B is 0% because you get from point A to Point B instantaneously. Any possible interaction you could have had along the way is thus not explored. In the case of mounts, the chance that you will engage with another human being is although not 0%, it is less than if you would have been walking, because mounts allows you to get from point A to point B faster, thus reducing the time in which interactable events could occur.

The mobs and the combat is one of the reasons that players come together in the first place...and that depends on how well these mobs generate social interaction. If they are braindead easy (to the point where you don't actually need to engage with another person in order to defeat said mob) then why would there be an interaction? The amount of self-sufficiency becomes more and more amplified by these mechanics that i'm listing off...and the problem gets worse and worse to the point where a player can go from Point A to Point B to Point C without ever having an interaction with any other player.

Aside from the above being a social issue, it's one you can't actually control because it's a construct. There might be a player out there who needs help with a mob...or might even just want to party with someone or just in general interact with another human being and not an NPC...but if no other players are around to help or interact with, then that player will, whether they wanted to or not, not be able to socially interact because nobody is around (since they are all taking way points and mounts to their own self sufficient objectives and goals.

Anyway i was standing in LA for about an hour just now, and i had witnessed only 2 meaningful interactions (A player teleporting players to a JP, and those that took the Portal saying thank you, and this happened twice, for a total of 2 meaningful interactions). The majority of people standing in LA were completely still at vendors, hopping around on mounts or just standing around in the middle somewhere. I even hovered over multiple name plates to see if any of these players were in a group (perhaps engaging with others in party chats) and found only 1 of them was in a party.

So I'm here in this thread trying to explain why there is so little interaction in this game because i observe it quiet clearly. It's not just LA where this is happening, but in a majority of places, some less severe than others. My post focuses on waypoints, but it's not just waypoints. Its a combination of many mechanics that are causing this "phenomenon."

How do you do know only 2 meaningful conversations took place?

Say doesn't cross the entire map.

People may have been whispering to each other.

People may have been in guild chat.

People may have had plenty of meaningful conversations earlier and were at a NPC reducing the items in their bags before either heading off to fill up their bags again or to hop off the game for some bed or work or other real life event.

Maybe they were at the bank digging for an item a friend they had met while doing RIBA earlier in the day had wanted and they were feeling generous. Maybe their friend had gifted them the last item they needed to make their first legendary and they were at the bank getting the final items out of the bank to stick in the Mystic Forge.

Also many players have moved to using services like Discord to chat while gaming. Because it's a lot easier and a lot safer to play an MMO and voice chat than it is to use an in game typed chat.

I don't disagree with your argument for your case. I just think that the cons of your solution are worse the cons of the current situation and that the pros of your solution aren't as good as the pros of the current situation.

No system is perfect, it's just choosing the one that's best. And at this point, they can't change the system to what you're suggesting. All you can do is try to work within it to make those meaningful conversations happen more frequently.

Whether that's you out in the maps trying to get people to band together to do a group event in some random map or making/joining a guild with the mindset of being social in game while actually playing or striking up conversations in Lion's Arch.