[Suggestion] A Proper Trading System Between Players

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@mauried.5608 said:Tax the amount of gold being agreed upon in the trade.eg I sell you a legendary weapon for 3000G , I get 3000 G , you pay 3900 G.The other 900 G goes to the extremely poor CEO of the Black Lion Company.what about item:item trades, with no gold exchanged?

As for all the paranoia about scamming, until Anet actually designed an interface to allow P2P trading its not possible to know.It's not paranoia. There are no games that have found an interface that prevents scamming in P2P trades. It is pretty easy to find methods to circumvent just about any system that any game can reasonably provide.

I personally dont think there is a need for P2P trading, but there needs to be some balance in the discussion other than everyone continually screaming everyone will get scammed.No one is screaming. And no one is claiming everyone will get scammed. People aren't even claiming that most trades will involve scams.But since someone is always willing to try for a deal that sounds too good to be true, someone is all-but-sure to get scammed. That's enough risk that it makes it not worth the cost of designing a system, let alone trying to implement one.And that's before considering the support costs of dealing with allegations of scams.

[mauried.5608]

The original OPs post is somewhat unclear as to what is being asked for.Im unaware of any MMOs which have a direct trading system between players where items are traded directly.They only allow for the direct sale of items for gold .Maybe the OP could clarify the original question.And incidentaly that what the existing TP does, so the name TP isnt really correct.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Another reason why this likely will not get added is because it makes it easier for RMT transactions.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@mauried.5608 said:The original OPs post is somewhat unclear as to what is being asked for.

It's very clear, he wants a P2P trade option that offers some scam protection. What is not stated is the motive, though I suspect the most likely motive is to circumvent the TP tax.

Im unaware of any MMOs which have a direct trading system between players where items are traded directly.They only allow for the direct sale of items for gold .

It was not an MMO per se, but GW P2P trade allowed the exchange of items for items and/or gold. For most of the game's life, it was common practice for Ectoplasm to be used as a currency because the amount of gold that could be traded capped well below the market value of some items.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:It was not an MMO per se, but GW P2P trade allowed the exchange of items for items and/or gold. For most of the game's life, it was common practice for Ectoplasm to be used as a currency because the amount of gold that could be traded capped well below the market value of some items.

There was no TP in GW1, so there was no other way to trade. And even with the so-called protections in place, people got scammed all the time, in all sorts of ways (including a lot of people who would literally buy things like ecto at the mat trader and resell it for a higher price, to people who didn't take the time to check the game's idea of market prices).

[Ravij.9856]

I'm astounded this thread was necro-bumped for a completely unrelated reason. But since it's been bumped from hell.

There are several games out there that have a player to player trading system that prevents either player being scammed. If you've played more than just GW2 over the years you'd know this and I'm a little shocked you all aren't aware of the most obvious ones which tells me you really haven't played any other mainstream MMO's so I'll name two MMO's with a scam prevention trading system that I really liked.

Final Fantasy XIV: The trading in this game is top notch and is by far my favorite player to player trading system. It has a two step process. The first part is putting items in the trade window, both users would place the items/money in and accept that this is what they wanted to trade, this locked the items/money in place so they could not be removed, altered, or changed. The second step had both users confirm or deny that they wished to trade these items, giving them time to review the items locked in to trade and to cancel if they messed up their orders or amount of ingame currency for the item. If the trade was fair and what was asked for then the trade is finalized by confirming a 2nd time.

World of Warcraft: Granted this wasn't a direct player to player trade aspect, but their mail has a COD (Cash on Delivery) option that I think should be a staple in any game, there was even a mailing fee (I believe) to send items via mail.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@Ravij.9856 said:I'm astounded this thread was necro-bumped for a completely unrelated reason. But since it's been bumped from hell.

There are several games out there that have a player to player trading system that prevents either player being scammed. If you've played more than just GW2 over the years you'd know this and I'm a little shocked you all aren't aware of the most obvious ones which tells me you really haven't played any other mainstream MMO's so I'll name two MMO's with a scam prevention trading system that I really liked.

Final Fantasy XIV: The trading in this game is top notch and is by far my favorite player to player trading system. It has a two step process. The first part is putting items in the trade window, both users would place the items/money in and accept that this is what they wanted to trade, this locked the items/money in place so they could not be removed, altered, or changed. The second step had both users confirm or deny that they wished to trade these items, giving them time to review the items locked in to trade and to cancel if they messed up their orders or amount of ingame currency for the item. If the trade was fair and what was asked for then the trade is finalized by confirming a 2nd time.

World of Warcraft: Granted this wasn't a direct player to player trade aspect, but their mail has a COD (Cash on Delivery) option that I think should be a staple in any game, there was even a mailing fee (I believe) to send items via mail.

I believe Guild Wars had the same system (as FF mentioned), yet players were able to be scammed, regardless.But, putting aside any issues with scamming, a player-to-player trade system does create such things as Spamadam (even with Trade channels). I, personally, would never want to see that, again.

[mauried.5608]

If people could define what they mean by being "scammed" it would help somewhat.I played WOW for over 8 years and was an extensive user of WOWs player to player trading system and was never scammed once, simply because the player to player trading system uses the exact same data base as WOWs auction house does, so its not possible to sell someone something and then somehow change it so they get something else.Lotro has an almost identical systemIt is possible to sell someone an item for a price thats a lot higher than another player might think is reasonable, but thats simply an issue for player diligence.This is also possible in GW2s TP if you are buying rare high end items where theres only 1 for sale, which can happen with legendary weapons.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Ravij.9856" said:There are several games out there that have a player to player trading system that prevents either player being scammed.Final Fantasy XIV: The trading in this game is top notch and is by far my favorite player to player trading system. It has a two step process. The first part is putting items in the trade window, both users would place the items/money in and accept that this is what they wanted to trade, this locked the items/money in place so they could not be removed, altered, or changed. The second step had both users confirm or deny that they wished to trade these items, giving them time to review the items locked in to trade and to cancel if they messed up their orders or amount of ingame currency for the item. If the trade was fair and what was asked for then the trade is finalized by confirming a 2nd time.

It's not all that hard to substitute scam people even in a double-verification system like that. People ignore warning messages and clever con artists are clever indeed about distracting folks. It's even easier to scam people who don't understand the markets, since the system you described makes no provision for comparing market rates. In an items-for-items trade (with or without coin), both parties have to be very aware of what other players are willing to pay to trade such items... and the vast majority of people aren't good at that.

I can't tell you how many times I traded in GW1 in which someone offered me less than market rate for something and I spent 5-10 minutes trying to convince them it was too little.

Perhaps you don't consider it a scam in which someone says, "I'm willing to pay you 200 gold to make a Legendary Weapon for me using your Gift of Exploration etc", when the going rate is easily demonstrated to be in the 400-500 gold range. Unfortunately, people who learn after the fact that they were misled won't see it that way. It still creates feelings of ill will, a sense of a PvP element to trading, and, worst of all from a business point of view, tons of support tickets.

In short, no, there's no practical way to eliminate scamming or conning in a P2P trading system. In GW2, there's also no need: for commodities, there's the TP (which offers market rates by definition). For high-value items, there's still the TP. And for that subset of players who want to see the 15% fees split between themselves and another player, there's in-game mail. The big advantage is that you know that you have to verify the trade carefully; there's no illusion of protection because there is no protection.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Ravij.9856" said:Final Fantasy XIV: The trading in this game is top notch and is by far my favorite player to player trading system. It has a two step process. The first part is putting items in the trade window, both users would place the items/money in and accept that this is what they wanted to trade, this locked the items/money in place so they could not be removed, altered, or changed. The second step had both users confirm or deny that they wished to trade these items, giving them time to review the items locked in to trade and to cancel if they messed up their orders or amount of ingame currency for the item. If the trade was fair and what was asked for then the trade is finalized by confirming a 2nd time.GW1 Trading system was like that, and scamming was a common, everyday occurence. The key is in the statement "if the trade was fair". The game has no way of checking that, and many of the scams depended on persuading one of the traders that the trade was fair while it really wasn't (all the rest relied on visual sleight of hand). Nothing in the system you mentioned prevents any of those popular GW1 scam methods.

@blambidy.3216 said:

Question number 1. Disappointments in pricing of mats. Which I mean of value going low. For example globs of ectoplasm use to be around 30 silver a piece. Now it’s about 15-20 a piece. And the thing is they have never gone back up. The highest it’s been around is 25 s maybe?That has nothing to do with TP. The price of mats goes down either because they get easier to farm (supply goes up), or they aren't as needed as before, due to some game changes (demand goes down). Or both. If there was no TP but only the direct trading system, the prices might be different, but they would still change in similar way. If there was a more advanced p2p trading system in addition to TP, it would not impact the prices (and the price changes) at all.

Second question. What I mean by sometimes it’s better. Because when crafting ascended or legendary you don’t have extra gold to give. Especially when you already farmed for 30-40 gold that day. So instead of buying from the trading post, offering a trade to a friend is better depending on they want in return.You can still trade with friends that way. And a better p2p trading system would not help you there, because you can be sure Anet would add a transaction tax to it. You would not escape it.

Third question. Yes everyone doesn’t qualify as friend but I meant someone near as in friend who is near. As much as looking up a friend in composing a message is easy, when new, there are mistakes that have happened. For example mailing something to the wrong person and the person won’t mail it back, if arenanet made an adjustment on mailing where both have to mail in equivalence, putting things in mail wouldn’t be so scary. If your giving something or being cheated.Still wouldn't prevent people from getting scammed occasionally. Which would likely be more common than you mailing a wrong person.

Forth question. Well thousand was an over exaggerating number, however many do get the price wrong. Or it’s too high. For example I shouldn’t be stuck in selling something underpriced that I crafted, if it took me more costy mats to make. Sometimes you lose money. Yes I know that you could wait for price to break even, but that could be few days. And tbh we just want to sell, make gold, and move on instead of worrying about if this gear is going back to an ok price to sell.Direct trading would not help you there. If players think that something is not worth the gold you want for it (because mats used to create it have bigger demand than the item itself), then a different trading system is not going to persuade them. Basically, you want to sell items above their worth. That's not fair trading.

Statement 5. Yes 105-115 is about there. But iv seen more around 100. But iv only been here couple of years. Noticing when it goes higher then 115, pricing for mats get higher, and when it’s under 100 prices get lower. But that could be an assumption.It is an assumption. In general, gem price and mat price changes are independent. In some cases they may seem to be related, because the changes influencing them both happened to be bundled in the same patch, but those would be different changes.And yes, the gem to gold prices remain mostly stable. They may be a bit higher now than they were 2 years ago, but that's still below 10% change.

Question 6. How because everything has value. and Only time prices drop is when more of the mats have been up for sale, or sold. Since pof maps, more ancient and elderwood have been created and the prices have gone lower. But occasionally even though these mat value of rarity dropped because of duplication on maps, they still get higher in value occasionally? That’s what I mean by things aren’t very (fair) per se....what? Do you even understand the basics of supply and demand? (hint: supply is not everything. You might want to correlate price changes with changes to demand as well). The system in TP literally couldn't be any more fairer.There may be some individual mats that are generally considered to be overpriced, but that's due to reasons that have nothing to do with TP itself.

Value of a mat usually is by the rarity of you gathering it. And if the rates barely change.... it shouldn’t really change much. The only things that should be changing much are like skins, dyes and rare items.They also change if the demand change (for example, new legendaries always cause spikes in mat prices when they're released). There's also the (mostly unavoidable) inflation.

Last question. When I meant by avoid is just not sell anything and wait till the price adjusts. During that time is when I would suggest having trading to a person then waiting few days to a week for pricing to come back.The prices on TP are fair. If you thing direct trading would let you sell/buy things at advantage, you are thinking of scamming players that aren't aware of the price changes. Not sure why Anet might want to help you with that.

I’m not saying tp is bad, I love it. All I’m saying is arenanet should allow trading to players. And players should trade when the value of mats are lower then what their worth. It’s better to have the choice to trade, then wait a week to sell and get your gold.A honest question: why do you think someone would want to buy your mats at a price that would be higher than their market value? I do understand that it might be better for you, but why would that be better for that other person?

[Ravij.9856]

Then why not a COD system for the mail. People have suggested that in this thread and I feel others are too focused on the P2P aspect that was originally the focus of this thread. I haven't seen anyone tell us their words or thoughts on a COD system.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:In short, no, there's no practical way to eliminate scamming or conning in a P2P trading system. In GW2, there's also no need: for commodities, there's the TP (which offers market rates by definition). For high-value items, there's still the TP. And for that subset of players who want to see the 15% fees split between themselves and another player, there's in-game mail. The big advantage is that you know that you have to verify the trade carefully; there's no illusion of protection because there is no protection.

[Linken.6345]

@Ravij.9856 said:Then why not a COD system for the mail. People have suggested that in this thread and I feel others are too focused on the P2P aspect that was originally the focus of this thread. I haven't seen anyone tell us their words or thoughts on a COD system.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:In short, no, there's no practical way to eliminate scamming or conning in a P2P trading system. In GW2, there's also no need: for commodities, there's the TP (which offers market rates by definition). For high-value items, there's still the TP. And for that subset of players who want to see the 15% fees split between themselves and another player, there's in-game mail. The big advantage is that you know that you have to verify the trade carefully; there's no illusion of protection because there is no protection.

Well aslong as it have a 15% or more tax on it i dont see a problem, but what do we and anet gain if they implement such a system when we already have a trading post?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Ravij.9856 said:Then why not a COD system for the mail. People have suggested that in this thread and I feel others are too focused on the P2P aspect that was originally the focus of this thread. I haven't seen anyone tell us their words or thoughts on a COD system.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:In short, no, there's no practical way to eliminate scamming or conning in a P2P trading system. In GW2, there's also no need: for commodities, there's the TP (which offers market rates by definition). For high-value items, there's still the TP. And for that subset of players who want to see the 15% fees split between themselves and another player, there's in-game mail. The big advantage is that you know that you have to verify the trade carefully; there's no illusion of protection because there is no protection.

What's the difference between CoD and the system you described earlier? They don't prevent market cons, they don't prevent substitution scamming, nor most other sorts of scams. They only change the time and/or frequency of double checks. And most importantly, with a robust TP as GW2 has, why should ANet spend any resources at all on it? CoD is just another form of P2P trading, subject to all the same issues and risks.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Ravij.9856" said:Then why not a COD system for the mail.Again, why would you need such a system over TP?

From your earlier responses i can see two possible answers:

1. you may want to circumvent TP tax (you haven't said anything about it, but that's usually the first goal of anyone asking for p2p trading).In this case, too bad. Anet introduced that tax for a reason, and they aren't likely to help anyone circumvent it any more than they already can. If they ever implemented a direct trading system, it would include that tax as well.
2. you may want to circumvent TP prices. In your posts i've seen that you think TP prices are often "wrong", and that trading directly will let you sell your stuff for "fair" prices.In this case, do you even realize what you're saying? You are saying that you want the pvp trading system to sell stuff to others in such a way, that the other person would buy it from you at a loss. If that other person knows what is happening, they likely are your friends and trust you enough to use mail system. If that other person doesn't know, however, (because they're too lazy to check TP, and because they believed you that you are offering a fair deal), then that's a scam, pure and simple.And you want Anet's help with this?

[Kassablanca.5821]

Daoc style player housing with their own TP Agent

Aion style player selling their own stuff sitting down

[Linken.6345]

@Limodriver.4106 said:

1. Daoc style player housing with their own TP Agent
2. Aion style player selling their own stuff sitting down

Neither of those are superior to the trading post.Running around checking all the players/houses to find stuff or press 1 button and trade with the whole community.