Kittymarks - The derpy girl's comprehensive benchmark

[Joxer.6024]

@Raguel.9402 said:

@Ildrid Ildhjertet.2489 said:

@Lunaire.9741 said:It's not wrong to post criticism of the builds or point out there flaws. That doesn't make one elitist.It's not wrong to want people to aim high rather than for mediorce.

Whats with people these days? cant criticise even legit criticisms cause feelings might get hurt :-1:Just gonna leave what Kitty stated on the first page here:@LadyKitty.6120 said:And like usual: don't be a build kitten. If the squad isn't speedrunning or doing No Updrafts-Gors,

pretty much any build with over 20k DPS

works for basic DPS role if played properly.

Note: these aren't "the best of 50 tries"-type benchmarks,

but what Kitty could pull off within 8 tries

(or less if Kitty felt like she did the best she could). Kitty's a kitten player with high ping, slow mind and reaction time and these benchmarks were done with a normal mouse and keyboard, so any player with full ascended gears (including poor multi-classers) should be able to do about as well at least. And speedrunners should do way moar <.< >.>*Emphasis addedThere are plenty of people who, for whatever reason, can't hit qT benchmarks. Having (lower) benchmarks that are more doable (and imo more realistic) is great, so people can go "I like to use power-mesmer, oh, there's a 20k+ dps build that can do that!" Or do anyone expect people to-realistically- hit 38k DPS on DH-guardian during a VG fight?

I also see people complaining about her rotations, as she's using a cc skill "that should only be used when needed, as it drops DPS!" Well, fun fact, the Golem does never require you to cc it, so not using a cc skill against it is absolutely not realistic for an encounter that do require the use of cc skills.

Benchmarks are supposed to be potential maximal dps output of a build. BUT you need to know the fight more than anything.

that right there is the core.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Honestly I'm just glad I can see the outputs of non-meta builds. One of the things about qT is that they'll frequently only show the test results of the top DPS builds or a particularly prominent build. If you want to know how much damage you can output as a scrapper, herald, spellbreaker, power warrior, etc., then you're out of luck. Also, you won't ever learn how much damage you can put out with different weapon choices, or how much damage you can sustain at range.

[FrostDraco.8306]

@Myhr.9108 said:So, we agree then. You won't take this thread seriously, right? So, why not just leave? You don't want to carry people that don't make enough effort? Perfect! You already have all the tools you need to do so. And be reassured, I wouldn't want to raid with you either. But you know what, you came in this topic, so you're the one out of place. It should have been obvious from the very first post that this topic wasn't for you.

I never said this topic was for me. But if someone is teaching people bad habits, and teaching them BS in an attempt for epeen or forum cred, then that's where i speak up. Don't like it? Too bad im here to stay. I've know this person for almost a decade, and they do this every single time they play a game.

The problem isn't that I take the thread seriously. The problem is people are coming here and not giving the slightest bit of critical thought. And that is BAD for the raid community. Unlike you I want people to be better players. And I actually care they reach a standard in which they won't need a group of friends just to kill a boss, or clear a wing.

What do you and this person want? People to feel good about their bad play? You argument rest on feelings, and i for one, simply do not care for them. I am actually making people good raiders. And spend hours out of my own time to do so. Can you say the same?

@Myhr.9108 said:Now, there are some constructive feedback that has been given : skill uses that result in dps-loss, testing conditions with all the buffs that require some minimal amount of organization. Discussion about the method are interesting. But refusing the method's very existence is some serious case of "someone doesn't follow the RULES! Burn them!"

Do you know what a method is? It's a standard. A standard that is used to produce effect of which one can compare. You sound like one of those people that complain about the scientific method. It's there for a reason, and it's not just something people arbitrarily made up. Maybe you can stop it with the pathetic strawmen? Cause your house is almost certainly made of hay by now.

@Myhr.9108 said:In other words, you're using an argument from authority. Authorities existence is justified (in this case, Qt and such), because they answer a demand : they display optimal builds.

I don't consider qT an authority. I consider them people who have peer reviewed studies and test, and who have proven they are trustworthy to produce somewhat accurate results. Are they perfect? No, but they are open and honest about why, and how the things they do are used.

Your argument is a fallacy and a straight up ad hom to attack my character, to make it seem like I am dogmatic. You don't know me, so i would suggest you not make statements about who I do and don't consider an authority.

@Myhr.9108 said:But when you don't follow the same logic, they're useless. Optimal builds have a solid reason to exist. However, I still fail to see why their existence is reason enough to not study viable builds.

No one said this. This is a strawman. There is a difference between viable, and meta. A build can be viable, non-meta, AND optimal. All of these builds she has used, are NEITHER. THAT is the argument. None of the condi duration, crit rate, boon duration, food, or even rotations are the slightest bit optimized. You wanna know a build that isnt even viable, but is optimized? Power reaper.

And look where investing a crap ton of gold in that has gotten us. What we want isn't the be all.

@Myhr.9108 said:You're not interested? Fine, move on. You're interested? Feel free to criticize, there has been some very helpful remarks in this thread. But asking people to shut up?

Citation needed. I asked for something worth even reviewing. Take that as you will. But until i actually tell someone to shut up, don't put words in my mouth.

@Myhr.9108 said:It's not asking the devs to make the content easier, kitten, it's figuring other ways to clear it. It's exactly as if you'd see a squad in the LFG saying "casual raiding, all builds accepted, no guarantee of success, but we'll try our best", jump in and start telling people that "no, you should use X build, no, you should read that site, you're doing it all wrong". Just don't join the squad, is it that hard?

This is a public forum that everyone reads. Not a single raid group. Comparing the two is fallacious. People come here looking for accurate info and help. People come here to LEARN. The very thing you, nor Kitty seem to want to do.

@Myhr.9108 said:In short, you're judging people that don't want to make as much effort as you...

Damn straight. Just as you are judging me for judging those people, you hypocrite. But unlike you, i know I'm being judged and I welcome it. Because it means I still have room to improve. If you aren't interested in improving, why are you even on the raid/fractal forums anyway?

Isn't it just full of 'muh toxic elitism'? Of maybe perhaps its not actually elitism and that's just an ad hom because some of us actually have standards?

@Myhr.9108 said:You know what, I actually enjoy being a half-cook potato, and nothing you said give me any incentive to change myself.

I could care less. And by the way, half cooked potatoes are poisonous, as they contain slightly high levels of cyanide, and solanine. So you are just proving my point.

@Myhr.9108 said:Perhaps if you had been more friendly, but with the tone of all the answers? And you know what, inside your own raid group, you're perfectly entitled to that. But in a public forum, I find it frightening that you won't just accept attempts at "casual" raiding.

Casual =\=bad at games. You can be casual and not suck. I know plenty who are. That statement is laughable at best. And I would never be friendly to someone like you. I think people like you are the worst in this community. And I am happy you won't be joining my raids. Less trash to sift through.

[FrostDraco.8306]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Honestly I'm just glad I can see the outputs of non-meta builds. One of the things about qT is that they'll frequently only show the test results of the top DPS builds or a particularly prominent build. If you want to know how much damage you can output as a scrapper, herald, spellbreaker, power warrior, etc., then you're out of luck. Also, you won't ever learn how much damage you can put out with different weapon choices, or how much damage you can sustain at range.

There are better ways to go about doing this, especially because most of the builds she did, are nothing but watered down versions of the meta builds. As for range, you generally want to be in melee range for alacrity, buffs, healing, etc. But there are builds that do great from ranged, like condi mesmer or mirage with a scepter. And that's why that build is meta on a fight like matthias.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:I've know this person for almost a decade, and they do this every single time they play a game.

This makes Kitty wonder a bit, 'cause she has played online games only for half a decade now, and only 2 other games before this. o.o

And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:I've know this person for almost a decade, and they do this every single time they play a game.

This makes Kitty wonder a bit, 'cause she has played online games only for half a decade now, and only 2 other games before this. o.o

And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

Don't get discouraged by haters. It was to be expected people will attack you here because you do not follow status quo blindly. Ignore them and continue with your work. I'm waiting for new videos.

[Henry.5713]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Honestly I'm just glad I can see the outputs of non-meta builds. One of the things about qT is that they'll frequently only show the test results of the top DPS builds or a particularly prominent build. If you want to know how much damage you can output as a scrapper, herald, spellbreaker, power warrior, etc., then you're out of luck. Also, you won't ever learn how much damage you can put out with different weapon choices, or how much damage you can sustain at range.

There are better ways to go about doing this, especially because most of the builds she did, are nothing but watered down versions of the meta builds. As for range, you generally want to be in melee range for alacrity, buffs, healing, etc. But there are builds that do great from ranged, like condi mesmer or mirage with a scepter.

And that's why that build is meta on a fight like matthias

.

This is exactly the thing people do not seem to understand. META stands for Most Effective Tactic Available. Nothing more and nothing less. It is not some scary entity or something those mean elitist guilds decide upon based around nothing more than their personal preference and their hate for all things casual. Neither is something set in stone for all eternity nor is the community perception of the most META builds ever completely flawless.

There are different METAs based around a different set of variables as far as player skill, compositions and builds are concerned. Unless you are talking about what would be META in perfect, sterile environment. Meaning that you might consider something the Pug META rather than the Speedclear META. The only reason why those change over time are factors such as general player experience gain and skill improvements, balance changes, a new tactic being figured out that wasn't very obvious at first and a few other minor factors.

Most people who'd force something on you that won't work simply do not understand that the Most Effective Tactic Avaible still needs you to meet a certain set of requirements before it actually becomes the most effective thing you can run. Meaning that some Non-Meta builds might indeed be better for your squad at this current point of yours. It does however not mean that it wouldn't be better if you improved to the level needed and min-maxed your composition to the point where you are able to run the META stuff well.Some love to point out that 20k ranged DPS is better than a dead person in melee ranged on a build capable of dealing 35k DPS. But you know what would be even better than that? If that guy didn't die, did his job and got close to meeting the possible benchmark.

Builds, strategies and compositions are used because they are just that: effective. Those looking to fully optimize and min-max damage numbers would not wasted their precious time on something they already know to be inferior for obvious reasons. Not to mention that just because they did not spend countless of hours of retrying builds which are in no way capable to come close to META builds and just because they didn't create any videos for those builds it still doesn't mean that they never even tried to run those builds at least once to see if they are truely not worth considering.

[FrostDraco.8306]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:I've know this person for almost a decade, and they do this every single time they play a game.

This makes Kitty wonder a bit, 'cause she has played online games only for half a decade now, and only 2 other games before this. o.o

And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

I know for a fact you've been playing PWI since launch, which was over 8 years ago. Unless you lied about playing it since launch. ::dizzy:

And even then, you think you are the only person testing 'non meta' builds?

Hell, World of Enders (Boots bad builds) has been doing it for years, and some of his builds have even become meta on certain fights. He spends gold, time, and optimizies even his 'bad' builds. He runs a podcast talking about these things, and has made more build videos that are actually interesting. That actually take a concept and work on it.

What do you do? Slap nightmare and trapper rune on every condi build and call it a day. Slap scholar runes and call it a day. Slap vipers gear and call it a day.

Most of the current condi builds don't even use nightmare and trapper after the condition duration food nerf, which i know you were present for, because i had spoke to you about PWI a week earlier.

And you keep on saying 'alternative', as if the weapons are interchangeable. Almost like those people that think 'alternative' aka quack medicine is actual medicine. There are people that work their asses off to provide good benchmarks, builds, and guide for this community just to be written off as 'elitist' by some lazy twats with a chip on their shoulder. You want nice, and praising criticism?

Do some competent work that shows you understand the game more than the people you are taking to. Because the 'casuals' you are catering to, probably understand the game better than you do.

[nextgen.3750]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

The reason for that would probably be that, like in the case of your condi staff earth only tempest, with a little theory crafting you should see that this build offers little to no abilitys to apply conditions in a manner being enough to compete with let's say condi tempest.Some builds might be fun playing in open world because nobody care, but have no application in high end content.

How is see it is, why would you test-drive a car that you know can go 180mph max because it's proven and write an article saying " we tested this car and it can go 120mph"

I'm sorry if this offendes someone, again, but I for myself don't care what the avg is, I care for the max something can go

[FrostDraco.8306]

@nextgen.3750 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

The reason for that would probably be that, like in the case of your condi staff earth only tempest, with a little theory crafting you should see that this build offers little to no abilitys to apply conditions in a manner being enough to compete with let's say condi tempest.Some builds might be fun playing in open world because nobody care, but have no application in high end content.

How is see it is, why would you test-drive a car that you know can go 180mph max because it's proven and write an article saying " we tested this car and it can go 120mph"

I'm sorry if this offendes someone, again, but I for myself don't care what the avg is, I care for the max something can go

Several people have tried to make it work, and have failed every time. Staff just isn't set up for condition application.

But somehow people want me and others like me, to be the bad guy for saying that.

[nextgen.3750]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

The reason for that would probably be that, like in the case of your condi staff earth only tempest, with a little theory crafting you should see that this build offers little to no abilitys to apply conditions in a manner being enough to compete with let's say condi tempest.Some builds might be fun playing in open world because nobody care, but have no application in high end content.

How is see it is, why would you test-drive a car that you know can go 180mph max because it's proven and write an article saying " we tested this car and it can go 120mph"

I'm sorry if this offendes someone, again, but I for myself don't care what the avg is, I care for the max something can go

Several people have tried to make it work, and have failed every time. Staff just isn't set up for condition application.

But somehow people want me and others like me, to be the bad guy for saying that.

I'm with you 100%

In my opinion, if you want to raid and get your kills fast (Monday in 120min max) than adapt what's best for the class or what class is best for serten bossIf you just want kills no matter what and how much, play whatever you want, let the boss go enrage, wipe a view time idk. But if you want to be like that, please let those be elitists that don't want to waste to much time on, in w1's case, 2 year old content

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@nextgen.3750 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

The reason for that would probably be that, like in the case of your condi staff earth only tempest, with a little theory crafting you should see that this build offers little to no abilitys to apply conditions in a manner being enough to compete with let's say condi tempest.Some builds might be fun playing in open world because nobody care, but have no application in high end content.

How is see it is, why would you test-drive a car that you know can go 180mph max because it's proven and write an article saying " we tested this car and it can go 120mph"

I'm sorry if this offendes someone, again, but I for myself don't care what the avg is, I care for the max something can go

Several people have tried to make it work, and have failed every time. Staff just isn't set up for condition application.

But somehow people want me and others like me, to be the bad guy for saying that.

I'm with you 100%

In my opinion, if you want to raid and get your kills fast (Monday in 120min max) than adapt what's best for the class or what class is best for serten bossIf you just want kills no matter what and how much, play whatever you want, let the boss go enrage, wipe a view time idk. But if you want to be like that, please let those be elitists that don't want to waste to much time on, in w1's case, 2 year old content

Kitty's thread is not for elitists to be used so there's no issue here. It's for relaxed players who would likt to see how off meta buids perform and many of them are still viable and provide dps that allows bosses to be killed within enrage timer. People who are interested in optimized meta gameplay are not target for this thread and following your advice are welcome to go away.

[nextgen.3750]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

The reason for that would probably be that, like in the case of your condi staff earth only tempest, with a little theory crafting you should see that this build offers little to no abilitys to apply conditions in a manner being enough to compete with let's say condi tempest.Some builds might be fun playing in open world because nobody care, but have no application in high end content.

How is see it is, why would you test-drive a car that you know can go 180mph max because it's proven and write an article saying " we tested this car and it can go 120mph"

I'm sorry if this offendes someone, again, but I for myself don't care what the avg is, I care for the max something can go

Several people have tried to make it work, and have failed every time. Staff just isn't set up for condition application.

But somehow people want me and others like me, to be the bad guy for saying that.

I'm with you 100%

In my opinion, if you want to raid and get your kills fast (Monday in 120min max) than adapt what's best for the class or what class is best for serten bossIf you just want kills no matter what and how much, play whatever you want, let the boss go enrage, wipe a view time idk. But if you want to be like that, please let those be elitists that don't want to waste to much time on, in w1's case, 2 year old content

Kitty's thread is not for elitists to be used so there's no issue here. It's for relaxed players who would likt to see how off meta buids perform and many of them are still viable and provide dps that allows bosses to be killed within enrage timer. People who are interested in optimized meta gameplay are not target for this thread and following your advice are welcome to go away.

I'm pretty sure you can read, so can I.

1. How about no, it's an open discussion in the official forums from the game we all play
2. She asked openly to benchmark those off meta builds "if not kitty, who would". I gave an answer to that. As simple as that.
3. It's not an off meta build just because you use the same gear, traits, food and just swap the weapons. Off meta would be regen druid at it's beginning.
4. Also I didn't call myself an elitist

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@nextgen.3750 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

The reason for that would probably be that, like in the case of your condi staff earth only tempest, with a little theory crafting you should see that this build offers little to no abilitys to apply conditions in a manner being enough to compete with let's say condi tempest.Some builds might be fun playing in open world because nobody care, but have no application in high end content.

How is see it is, why would you test-drive a car that you know can go 180mph max because it's proven and write an article saying " we tested this car and it can go 120mph"

I'm sorry if this offendes someone, again, but I for myself don't care what the avg is, I care for the max something can go

Several people have tried to make it work, and have failed every time. Staff just isn't set up for condition application.

But somehow people want me and others like me, to be the bad guy for saying that.

I'm with you 100%

In my opinion, if you want to raid and get your kills fast (Monday in 120min max) than adapt what's best for the class or what class is best for serten bossIf you just want kills no matter what and how much, play whatever you want, let the boss go enrage, wipe a view time idk. But if you want to be like that, please let those be elitists that don't want to waste to much time on, in w1's case, 2 year old content

Kitty's thread is not for elitists to be used so there's no issue here. It's for relaxed players who would likt to see how off meta buids perform and many of them are still viable and provide dps that allows bosses to be killed within enrage timer. People who are interested in optimized meta gameplay are not target for this thread and following your advice are welcome to go away.

I'm pretty sure you can read, so can I.

1. How about no, it's an open discussion in the official forums from the game we all play
2. She asked openly to benchmark those off meta builds "if not kitty, who would". I gave an answer to that. As simple as that.
3. It's not an off meta build just because you use the same gear, traits, food and just swap the weapons. Off meta would be regen druid at it's beginning.
4. Also I didn't call myself an elitist

That's okay. I'm merely responding to premise of your previouos post - hang out with likeminded people. If you want casuals to stick to other casuals and not bother you when you (or anyone else) provide your optimized gameplay for the glory of the holy benchmark, you should follow your own advice first and not stick around casuals who don't share your way of life here.

As always, you are free to voice your opinion but it would make you look much more constructive if you followed same rules you try to inject onto others.

[Lunaire.9741]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

The reason for that would probably be that, like in the case of your condi staff earth only tempest, with a little theory crafting you should see that this build offers little to no abilitys to apply conditions in a manner being enough to compete with let's say condi tempest.Some builds might be fun playing in open world because nobody care, but have no application in high end content.

How is see it is, why would you test-drive a car that you know can go 180mph max because it's proven and write an article saying " we tested this car and it can go 120mph"

I'm sorry if this offendes someone, again, but I for myself don't care what the avg is, I care for the max something can go

Several people have tried to make it work, and have failed every time. Staff just isn't set up for condition application.

But somehow people want me and others like me, to be the bad guy for saying that.

I'm with you 100%

In my opinion, if you want to raid and get your kills fast (Monday in 120min max) than adapt what's best for the class or what class is best for serten bossIf you just want kills no matter what and how much, play whatever you want, let the boss go enrage, wipe a view time idk. But if you want to be like that, please let those be elitists that don't want to waste to much time on, in w1's case, 2 year old content

Kitty's thread is not for elitists to be used so there's no issue here. It's for relaxed players who would likt to see how off meta buids perform and many of them are still viable and provide dps that allows bosses to be killed within enrage timer. People who are interested in optimized meta gameplay are not target for this thread and following your advice are welcome to go away.

with the exception apparently for your support classes which do have to be meta as per her benchmarks. Hypocrites :-1:

[nextgen.3750]

@"Kheldorn.5123" "Again, I get your point.But please don't white knight something if someone reply to a comment OP made.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@nextgen.3750 said:@Keldros.2087Again, I get your point.But please don't white knight something if someone reply to a comment OP made.

oh I am all for the comments, through feedback and discussion everyone can learn something new, but please, focus on the subject, not on person as a lot of people here simply insult each other which is against forum rules and general good taste

@Lunaire.9741 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@nextgen.3750 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And then Kitty does still have the question: who would go testing alternative weapon-combos and the "horrible" builds if Kitty didn't? Only answer Kitty's gotten this far was something like "we experienced raiders already know that they are worse than meta-builds so..." . And that didn't quite answer directly to the question.

The reason for that would probably be that, like in the case of your condi staff earth only tempest, with a little theory crafting you should see that this build offers little to no abilitys to apply conditions in a manner being enough to compete with let's say condi tempest.Some builds might be fun playing in open world because nobody care, but have no application in high end content.

How is see it is, why would you test-drive a car that you know can go 180mph max because it's proven and write an article saying " we tested this car and it can go 120mph"

I'm sorry if this offendes someone, again, but I for myself don't care what the avg is, I care for the max something can go

Several people have tried to make it work, and have failed every time. Staff just isn't set up for condition application.

But somehow people want me and others like me, to be the bad guy for saying that.

I'm with you 100%

In my opinion, if you want to raid and get your kills fast (Monday in 120min max) than adapt what's best for the class or what class is best for serten bossIf you just want kills no matter what and how much, play whatever you want, let the boss go enrage, wipe a view time idk. But if you want to be like that, please let those be elitists that don't want to waste to much time on, in w1's case, 2 year old content

Kitty's thread is not for elitists to be used so there's no issue here. It's for relaxed players who would likt to see how off meta buids perform and many of them are still viable and provide dps that allows bosses to be killed within enrage timer. People who are interested in optimized meta gameplay are not target for this thread and following your advice are welcome to go away.

with the exception apparently for your support classes which do have to be meta as per her benchmarks. Hypocrites :-1:

As mentioned before, there is always room for improvements, Kitty's work is not finished, she's currently working on dps option but in future videos it's very possible (I mean I hope to) we will see other support option, might stacking necro, other healing specs etc. give it time, this is work in progress. Feel free to participate in the discussion but please do not insult people, stop with name calling and focus on the subject.

[DutchRiders.2871]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And yet none of you people have answered to Kitty's simple question: if Kitty didn't test the alternative builds and post some results on what kind of DPS they can do, who would? People always keep saying about how horrible any alternatives are yet none's really posting ANY numbers for anything but the metabuilds.

Playing the same weapon combo with absolutely same build gets friggin boring at some point unless you're the kind of person who just likes repeating stuff the exact same way over, over and over again for years. Kitty's quite certain that not everyone are as enthusiastic about playing like that.

E: Now that Kitty started thinking about it, it's prolly small wonder that Anet doesn't beef up the "weak builds/weapon combos". Balance team most likely doesn't have the time to test them all themselves and without any numbers from players, they do have very difficult time trying to estimate what they could change without going overboard or beefing too little. So, if Kitty's apparently too bad to give any numbers... https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78m6ay/versatile_benchmarking_challenge/

The thing is if you do not even try to get the most out of your results, I still do not known jack about the dps potentional of builds cause your numbers essentially mean nothing. They are numbers from a player that doesn't even try.

[maddoctor.2738]

The major issue with these tests is this part:

The test parameters will be pretty much same as qT’s, expecting the player’s party to have Chrono+Druid+PS Warrior(+engi for condibuilds) and 2 DPS. Thus…

1. Boons: 25 Might, Fury, Quickness, Vigor, Swiftness.
   2. Class-specific: Alacrity, Spotter, Frost Spirit, Sun Spirit, 5xGrace of the Land, Empower All, Banner of Strenght, Banner of Discipline
   3. Golem:-Small hitbox, 4.000.000 health, 25 vulnerability (and possibly some class-specific condition)

On one hand you are trying to prove that many more builds can reach the dps target of the bosses and kill them and on the other hand you assume that the non-dps builds used will be the meta builds with perfect rotations.To me, this is like saying: "Please all you meta players, accept people with terrible builds in your -otherwise optimal- group", so once you get 6/10 full meta, experienced, optimal players, the rest 4 dps slots can be filled by none-optimal builds. This isn't fair for those 6 players though.Again, this is my feeling from this thread. In a real situation, not-optimal dps builds, will be paired with not-optimal support builds.

Now about the benchmarks.There are some choices of Power weapons used in condi builds (Condi Dragonhunter using Longbow/Greatsword)Other than that, I do hope that the developers have their own benchmarks to figure out which build to buff and which one to nerf (although it doesn't seem obvious at times) but as a rough comparison on which builds to avoid, and why the meta builds are meta builds, it's a valuable guide

[Henry.5713]

@maddoctor.2738 said:The major issue with these tests is this part:

The test parameters will be pretty much same as qT’s, expecting the player’s party to have Chrono+Druid+PS Warrior(+engi for condibuilds) and 2 DPS. Thus…

1. Boons: 25 Might, Fury, Quickness, Vigor, Swiftness.
   2. Class-specific: Alacrity, Spotter, Frost Spirit, Sun Spirit, 5xGrace of the Land, Empower All, Banner of Strenght, Banner of Discipline
   3. Golem:-Small hitbox, 4.000.000 health, 25 vulnerability (and possibly some class-specific condition)

On one hand you are trying to prove that many more builds can reach the dps target of the bosses and kill them and on the other hand you assume that the non-dps builds used will be the meta builds with perfect rotations.To me, this is like saying: "Please all you meta players, accept people with terrible builds in your -otherwise optimal- group", so once you get 6/10 full meta, experienced, optimal players, the rest 4 dps slots can be filled by none-optimal builds. This isn't fair for those 6 players though.Again, this is my feeling from this thread.

In a real situation, not-optimal dps builds, will be paired with not-optimal support builds.

Now about the benchmarks.There are some choices of Power weapons used in condi builds (Condi Dragonhunter using Longbow/Greatsword)Other than that, I do hope that the developers have their own benchmarks to figure out which build to buff and which one to nerf (although it doesn't seem obvious at times) but as a rough comparison on which builds to avoid, and why the meta builds are meta builds, it's a valuable guide

This is exactly the core of the problems.Most squads would never be able to finish any boss if they only went with exactly the amount of everything that was required to beat a certain encounter. This is the very reason why people tend to follow the META as closely as possible and why pointing out that bosses do in no way require that amount of damage to be killed on time is a little silly. It is the reason why you have to aim to be as efficient as possible as an individual as well as a part of the group unless you can expect perfect play from everyone else and already know you will be carried.Commanders prefer to go rather safe than sorry. They usually expect the worst things to happen and already know or at least assume that nobody will come even close to reaching any benchmarks. They will go with 200% of the potential DPS required and still hardly even hit the timer. This is especially true for pugs. People also seem to assume that the majority of player would be able to meet the benchmarks set by Kitty which is not going to happen. Meaning that some of these builds are not "good enough" after all and only seem enough when seen on paper or in a perfect golem test.Neither will you ever have the perfect boon and buff uptime with such players or the proper healing when needed. Something the majority of players seem quite quick to ignore and only really seems to bother the two of us here.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@maddoctor.2738 said:The major issue with these tests is this part:

The test parameters will be pretty much same as qT’s, expecting the player’s party to have Chrono+Druid+PS Warrior(+engi for condibuilds) and 2 DPS. Thus…

1. Boons: 25 Might, Fury, Quickness, Vigor, Swiftness.
   2. Class-specific: Alacrity, Spotter, Frost Spirit, Sun Spirit, 5xGrace of the Land, Empower All, Banner of Strenght, Banner of Discipline
   3. Golem:-Small hitbox, 4.000.000 health, 25 vulnerability (and possibly some class-specific condition)

On one hand you are trying to prove that many more builds can reach the dps target of the bosses and kill them and on the other hand you assume that the non-dps builds used will be the meta builds with perfect rotations.To me, this is like saying: "Please all you meta players, accept people with terrible builds in your -otherwise optimal- group", so once you get 6/10 full meta, experienced, optimal players, the rest 4 dps slots can be filled by none-optimal builds. This isn't fair for those 6 players though.Again, this is my feeling from this thread. In a real situation, not-optimal dps builds, will be paired with not-optimal support builds.

Now about the benchmarks.There are some choices of Power weapons used in condi builds (Condi Dragonhunter using Longbow/Greatsword)Other than that, I do hope that the developers have their own benchmarks to figure out which build to buff and which one to nerf (although it doesn't seem obvious at times) but as a rough comparison on which builds to avoid, and why the meta builds are meta builds, it's a valuable guide

Kitty's half-assuming such, due to the inflexibility of raid community. Yush, Kitty does dream that people weren't so stuck to basic mirror comp and could see the potential (not so great as metacomp's but still...) of alternative squad compositions and how they are also viable for most bosses. Another 2, greater reasons for Kitty to use that comp are......so Kitty could somewhat compare her performance to qT's and how close she can get to qT's results with her max. 8 tries....to somewhat simulate a squad situation. Doing the tests without any support would give results about how the class would fare without any support from other players, which mainly happens in open-world and Kitty doesn't happen to be interested in open-world performance 'cause anything works at that, more or less. Also, some builds have way stronger self-support capabilities, which would warp the test results and comparability even further than Kitty's oh-so-flawless (read that in sarcastic tone) gameplay.

One thingie Kitty could say is that even the worse pure DPS-builds (around 20-23k range in Kitty's tests) should still be able to pull at least 8k DPS in boss situations without any of those metasupport builds. Let's imagine we have 2 healer elementalists (one tanks), and 8 decently played pure DPSers, each doing 8k DPS. That's already 64k DPS. That's more than enough for majority of raid encounters. Yes, it does mean more mechanics to survive through, but if the squad really knows the mechanics, that shouldn't be an issue. Kitty's far from the best when it comes to evading the mechanics at times, but she's not really scared of meeting them either ('cause she happens to be used to fights taking 'til 30 secs before enrage 'cause pugs). So, why really skilled peoples keep bringing up "more mechanics means higher chance of failure"? That's mainly true if peoples don't clear the mechanics properly and if people don't clear them properly, do they really have much chance of getting the kill regardless?By the way, Kitty's "boss DPS requirements"-numbers weren't just randomly pulled from boss HP. They were pulled from actual raid videos, calculated from the Arcmeter readings shown on them at the last second of the encounter(while the squad wasn't ignoring mechanics) and the time spent, then calculating from that what kind of DPS that would be if fight lasted 'til enrage timer. And since arcmeter reading happens to include the DPS to possible adds and doesn't reset over the raid encounter, the calculation does quite well present what kind of DPS is really required. And then Kitty added extra 5-10k to that number so the recommendation wouldn't lead people trying to actually take the fight 'til 5 secs left in enrage timer but about 30 secs left at least. So, in fact, the bosses can be done with even lower squad DPS than what Kitty's recommendations say.

And, you guys keep constantly ignoring a couple major points.

1. Kitty's benchmarks weren't even meant to be the highest possible damage the build can do. They're meant to present what the builds can at least do in hands of semi-decent full ascended geared player (with multiclasser's gears) and the basic assumption is that a player with stat infusions, better optimized gears and who mains the class should do way better damage with the same build. Kitty doesn't even have the time, gears nor skills to go for highest possible. Already giving 8 tries to a build means about 30-40 minutes of just testing time (excluding time spent on adjustments when changing build). And foods for 30 minutes costs about 60-90s. Thus, if Kitty tests 180 pure DPS-builds, that's already about 150g spent on consumables alone. And about 100-120 hours of benchmarking time (and Kitty's not benchmarking when she's tired so that time is already very limited). If Kitty gave them 50 tries each, that would mean about 600-700 hours of benchmarking time. That would be equal to 4 months of doing benchmarking as full-time work, 8 hours a day. And that doesn't even include DPS/support hybrid builds, which Kitty will also benchmark later on. Nor farming all the coins for stat infusions and runes and new runes for the time when Kitty's done benchmarking and she can play again. And Kitty doesn't even have all gears for benchmarking, so she needs to farm those as well at some point. There's just so much a lone girl can do and Kitty chose to go for quantity over quality here 'cause she wants to see what all the possible alternatives can do and she does have a quirk of trying to make all kinds of builds playable regardless of the game she plays. If anyone else wants to use her benchmarks, she lets them decide if they are useful or not. For someone interested in optimizing stuff, Kitty's benchmarks are quite useless indeed.Also, while the builds mentioned in Kitty's benchmarks might be too weak for raids indeed, they do work in normal T4-fractals well enough 'cause just to be honest, average player damage there is horrible (at least when exclusively pugging, like Kitty does). Kitty's done fractals with some plain horrible DPS-builds and still done just fine. It doesn't friggin matter what kind of squad comp fractal squad has as long as people evade well enough and do the mechanics properly.By the way, PS+druid+chrono+2DPS comp does make things smoother in fractals (and seems to be the only fractal comp on EU, from what Kitty saw during her 1-week-visit there), but NA-pugs rarely bother with such, usually going with whatever joins the squad (Kitty's not sure if she's ever been in half-raidmeta fractal squad on NA yet, she usually gets 5 DPS 0 support T4-squads).
2. You keep saying that Kitty's trying to teach the newbies how to play badly. Kitty did upload videos of each benchmark, but she didn't do that with educating newbies in mind. If she had, the video would have long text description (including every possible detail). Kitty has quit making educational video business, just to tell you. She did that just to show how she got what she did just like any benchmarker should do 'cause otherwise you guys would most likely go on usual "oh, so you pulled those numbers from your hat, you idiot". Though Kitty's not the best player, she's asura enough to always provide evidence (and to try to mention all the variables and possible known bugs/flaws in her research, listed in Informations-tab). But she forgot to bring a scapegoat.Anyway, Kitty's skill level ish actually enough to pull off her role as DPS in pug raids (and though some of you have taken a liking towards linking Kitty's bad firebrand-DPS at that one VG, you always forget to mention that Kitty wasn't playing pure DPS'er that time). And if someone goes to watch her videos, takes example of it (while playing even worse than Kitty does) and does horrible DPS, choosing to play the build in role it doesn't work at yadayadayada, is it really on Kitty's responsibility? 'Cause if it is, then guess we better indeed point at qT for responsibility over all dem horrible metatempests and DHs. If some DPSer does so low DPS that boss cannot be completed (even despite the very low DPS checks on most bosses), then that said DPSer does deserve to be kicked. That being said, if Kitty herself feels like she's not filling her role if she's playing a DPSers, she does leave the squad herself.

And Kitty ends this text with something qT's lately added to their website:"Please understand that we are a speed clear guild, our opinions are based around achieving the highest DPS possible on every boss. It is not necessary to be a class nazi to kill any boss; DPS checks in Guild Wars 2 Raids are very lenient. You and your team can do the job with just about every team comp. Just because we say something is not recommended doesn’t mean it’s not viable."

[Static.9841]

You know, if this was "I just benchmarked a bunch of random weapons and builds for funsies" I wouldn't even bat an eye. The fact you're actually 100% serious about this and vehemently defending bad choices in abilities, traits, random weapon changes using meta builds and bad rotations without any real care or thorough testing is where the problem lies. When something is pointed out to you, you won't even consider the argument, instead you either cry "elitist" or "speedrunner" or you just continue to defend your decision and stubbornly refuse to learn anything.

The worst part of this is your lack of credibility, here is the video from your Cairn run -

You didn't even pull your weight here and it was painful watching your performance because you don't even seem to know the mechanics of the fight - you got hit by just about everything and you actively walked into as many teleports as you possibly could, at one point you even decide to give up even going for green circles and just mindlessly attack the boss until you're inevitably downed. You downed many, many times and thoroughly got carried through that raid. You made a previous claim that in pug groups you typically perform highest DPS and keep touting this 20k DPS number and yet you came nowhere close to either claim in this raid video. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you don't even know raid mechanics let alone the ability to play any of the classes you have benchmarked with any degree of competency regardless of the builds or weapons used and actively had to be carried? Just because you label something "derpy" doesn't excuse terrible performance and zero boss knowledge when you're trying to be taken seriously and have your videos and website used as some kind of resource.

You are trying to push these 'benchmarks' as a resource to newbie raiders and casual raiders and all this is going to do is teach them terrible habits, not to care about their builds or rotations (despite you using your own rotations) and to just tear straight in with whatever they feel like because it's ok as long as the support and everyone else are running proper builds. You're actively trying to make a newbie pug experience worse because all they will gain from this will be getting kicked or flamed for their performance which you can then wash your hands of because you can claim once again that it's toxicity of "elitists" and "speedrunners" and no fault of theirs or your 'resource', this entire attitude is hugely disrespectful and dismissive to the raid community.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Static.9841 said:You know, if this was "I just benchmarked a bunch of random weapons and builds for funsies" I wouldn't even bat an eye. The fact you're actually 100% serious about this and vehemently defending bad choices in abilities, traits, random weapon changes using meta builds and bad rotations without any real care or thorough testing is where the problem lies. When something is pointed out to you, you won't even consider the argument, instead you either cry "elitist" or "speedrunner" or you just continue to defend your decision and stubbornly refuse to learn anything.

The worst part of this is your lack of credibility, here is the video from your Cairn run -

You didn't even pull your weight here and it was painful watching your performance because you don't even seem to know the mechanics of the fight - you got hit by just about everything and you actively walked into as many teleports as you possibly could, at one point you even decide to give up even going for green circles and just mindlessly attack the boss until you're inevitably downed. You died many, many times and thoroughly got carried through that raid. You made a previous claim that in pug groups you typically perform highest DPS and keep touting this 20k DPS number and yet you came nowhere close to either claim in this raid video. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you don't even know raid mechanics let alone the ability to play any of the classes you have benchmarked with any degree of competency regardless of the builds or weapons used?

You are trying to push these 'benchmarks' as a resource to newbie raiders and casual raiders and all this is going to do is teach them terrible habits, not to care about their builds or rotations (despite you using your own rotations) and to just tear straight in with whatever they feel like because it's ok as long as the support and everyone else are running proper builds. You're actively trying to make a newbie pug experience worse because all they will gain from this will be getting kicked or flamed for their performance which you can then wash your hands of because you can claim once again that it's toxicity of "elitists" and "speedrunners" and no fault of theirs or your 'resource'.

They killed the boss - mission complete. There is always way to improve, for everyone. But in this example she managed to kill raid boss with the chosen builds. That's enough of the justification.

[Coconut.7082]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Static.9841 said:You know, if this was "I just benchmarked a bunch of random weapons and builds for funsies" I wouldn't even bat an eye. The fact you're actually 100% serious about this and vehemently defending bad choices in abilities, traits, random weapon changes using meta builds and bad rotations without any real care or thorough testing is where the problem lies. When something is pointed out to you, you won't even consider the argument, instead you either cry "elitist" or "speedrunner" or you just continue to defend your decision and stubbornly refuse to learn anything.

The worst part of this is your lack of credibility, here is the video from your Cairn run -

You didn't even pull your weight here and it was painful watching your performance because you don't even seem to know the mechanics of the fight - you got hit by just about everything and you actively walked into as many teleports as you possibly could, at one point you even decide to give up even going for green circles and just mindlessly attack the boss until you're inevitably downed. You died many, many times and thoroughly got carried through that raid. You made a previous claim that in pug groups you typically perform highest DPS and keep touting this 20k DPS number and yet you came nowhere close to either claim in this raid video. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you don't even know raid mechanics let alone the ability to play any of the classes you have benchmarked with any degree of competency regardless of the builds or weapons used?

You are trying to push these 'benchmarks' as a resource to newbie raiders and casual raiders and all this is going to do is teach them terrible habits, not to care about their builds or rotations (despite you using your own rotations) and to just tear straight in with whatever they feel like because it's ok as long as the support and everyone else are running proper builds. You're actively trying to make a newbie pug experience worse because all they will gain from this will be getting kicked or flamed for their performance which you can then wash your hands of because you can claim once again that it's toxicity of "elitists" and "speedrunners" and no fault of theirs or your 'resource'.

They killed the boss - mission complete. There is always way to improve, for everyone. But in this example she managed to kill raid boss with the chosen builds. That's enough of the justification.

This boss can be soloed. As long as there are at least a few mildly competent players in the group, killing the boss does not show much about a specific build.In the video, Kitty has an entire utility kit she doesn't use (Bomb Kit, the major DPS kit of this build), an elite skill never used, absolutely no knowledge of how the class works (cancelling Photon-forge therefore not overheating, not getting Laser's Edge = 15% damage loss) among other stuff.It effectively showed how to get less DPS than a competent Chrono, on a DPS class.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Static.9841 said:You know, if this was "I just benchmarked a bunch of random weapons and builds for funsies" I wouldn't even bat an eye. The fact you're actually 100% serious about this and vehemently defending bad choices in abilities, traits, random weapon changes using meta builds and bad rotations without any real care or thorough testing is where the problem lies. When something is pointed out to you, you won't even consider the argument, instead you either cry "elitist" or "speedrunner" or you just continue to defend your decision and stubbornly refuse to learn anything.

The worst part of this is your lack of credibility, here is the video from your Cairn run -

You didn't even pull your weight here and it was painful watching your performance because you don't even seem to know the mechanics of the fight - you got hit by just about everything and you actively walked into as many teleports as you possibly could, at one point you even decide to give up even going for green circles and just mindlessly attack the boss until you're inevitably downed. You died many, many times and thoroughly got carried through that raid. You made a previous claim that in pug groups you typically perform highest DPS and keep touting this 20k DPS number and yet you came nowhere close to either claim in this raid video. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you don't even know raid mechanics let alone the ability to play any of the classes you have benchmarked with any degree of competency regardless of the builds or weapons used?

You are trying to push these 'benchmarks' as a resource to newbie raiders and casual raiders and all this is going to do is teach them terrible habits, not to care about their builds or rotations (despite you using your own rotations) and to just tear straight in with whatever they feel like because it's ok as long as the support and everyone else are running proper builds. You're actively trying to make a newbie pug experience worse because all they will gain from this will be getting kicked or flamed for their performance which you can then wash your hands of because you can claim once again that it's toxicity of "elitists" and "speedrunners" and no fault of theirs or your 'resource'.

They killed the boss - mission complete. There is always way to improve, for everyone. But in this example she managed to kill raid boss with the chosen builds. That's enough of the justification.

This boss can be soloed. As long as there are at least a few mildly competent players in the group, killing the boss does not show much about a specific build.In the video, Kitty has an entire utility kit she doesn't use (Bomb Kit, the major DPS kit of this build), an elite skill never used, absolutely no knowledge of how the class works (cancelling Photon-forge therefore not overheating, not getting Laser's Edge = 15% damage loss) among other stuff.It effectively showed how to get less DPS than a competent Chrono, on a DPS class.

if the boss can be soloed, clearly her build deals enough damage to kill it in party