Hammer rework suggestion

[Jobber.6348]

Goal : Pull it out of it's current Sieging style of use and make it more of a dueling weapon.

Current Hammer skills:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolthttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruinhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smashhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Field_of_the_Mistshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer

Proposed Hammer skills

Damage numbers are pve numbers

Hammering Bolts (Auto)Activation time : 1sRange : 900Combo Finisher : Projectile (25%)Damage : 355 (3x)Description :Rapidly fires 3 shots of mist energy at a target. Animation would be similar to Mesmer's Greatsword auto spin.

Coalescence of Ruin (Skill 2)Energy : 20Recharge : 10sActivation time : 0.75sRange : 900Radius : 400, expanding from casterDamage : 706Targets : 5Description :A conal blast of Energy expanding from the Revenant.

Expel (Skill 3)Energy : 15Recharge : 8sActivation time : 0.25Radius : 350Combo Finisher : BlastDamage : 706Inflicts Chill (3s)Targets : 5Description :The Revenant expels the Mist violently, chilling targets hit.

Field of the Mist (Skill 4)Energy : 10Recharge : 15sActivation time : 0.25Core mechanic : unchanged

Flip skill : Mist RushEnergy : 10Recharge : 12sActivation time : InstantRange : 400Evade : 1sRemoves ImmobTargets : 5Description :The Revenant envelops themselves in the Mist and rushes forward.

HammerfallEnergy : 20Recharge : 20sActivation time : 0.75Damage : 706Range : 900Radius : 350Targets : 5Combo Finisher : LeapEvade : 1sInflicts Knockdown (1.5s)Description :The Revenant launches themselves toward the target location, dealing damage and knocking down enemies.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

You lost me at “20 energy and 10s recharge” on kitten new coalescence of ruin. Also a completely unnecessary nerf to the Hammer’s range from 1200 to 900 for absolutely no reason

Edit: no reason to change hammer drastically. CoR just needs to be fixed or reworked. Phase smash is a good and interesting offensive and defensive skill. Drop the hammer just needs some damage back or a shorter cast time.

[Jobber.6348]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:You lost me at “20 energy and 10s recharge” on kitten new coalescence of ruin. Also a completely unnecessary nerf to the Hammer’s range from 1200 to 900 for absolutely no reason

Edit: no reason to change hammer drastically. CoR just needs to be fixed or reworked. Phase smash is a good and interesting offensive and defensive skill. Drop the hammer just needs some damage back or a shorter cast time.

Yu missed the point of my proposal.The point is to literally rework how Hammer is used entirely.

The focus of my proposal was to remove all its sieging potential entirely, and turn it into a duelist weapon.I even have it big and bold at the start of the post so people won't misunderstand.

If yu want Hammer to still be a sieging weapon, just ignore the post :x

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:You lost me at “20 energy and 10s recharge” on kitten new coalescence of ruin. Also a completely unnecessary nerf to the Hammer’s range from 1200 to 900 for absolutely no reason

Edit: no reason to change hammer drastically. CoR just needs to be fixed or reworked. Phase smash is a good and interesting offensive and defensive skill. Drop the hammer just needs some damage back or a shorter cast time.

Yu missed the point of my proposal.The point is to literally rework how Hammer is used entirely.

If yu want Hammer to still be a sieging weapon, just ignore the post :x

I didn’t miss the point of the proposal I just don’t agree with it. Simply ignoring posts like these is not really an option since these are very real suggestions that Anet devs may or may not see and may or may not take ideas from. As such I decided to throw my opinion into the ring that hammer doesn’t need many/any big changes. A rework like this isn’t something that I would like to see

[Jobber.6348]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:

I didn’t miss the point of the proposal I just don’t agree with it. Simply ignoring posts like these is not really an option since these are very real suggestions that Anet devs may or may not see and may or may not take ideas from. As such I decided to throw my opinion into the ring that hammer doesn’t need many/any big changes. A rework like this isn’t something that I would like to see

If they do change it : good, cos Hammer is filling an unhealthy niche which is not needed in the game. Plus Revenants already have Shortbow which fulfils the same role except better, which is just shameful for Hammer.

But let's be real, they won't.It's too much effort for them.

Just look at their last "big" weapon skill alteration, which is literally just changing Precision Strike to no longer be projectiles and becomes a small AoE around the caster instead.

I made this post already knowing if any weapon reworks is probably gonna be on the same level as Chilling Isolation, aka make a weapon skill dumber and easier to land.That means they gonna just turn CoR into Guardian Hammer 3.

[Jaykay.9641]

I get the desire to change Rev hammer. It really only fills a ranged AoE niche that WvW thrives on and sometimes some PvE meta stuff. As a core Rev weapon, it's severely limiting which limits the whole class even further since there are so few weapons.

@Yasai.3549 As far as your overall suggestions, there are 2 main concerns I have with what you suggested: For a dueling weapon, all of your suggested damage abilities deal damage to 5 enemies. This usually isn't the case for a duelist weapon. 2nd, If it's a ranged weapon, there usually aren't any gap-closers or long ranged dashes on those type of weapons. If there movement skills on ranged weapons (900+ ranged), it's usually a small blink or evade ( Think Mesmer staff 2, Ele staff Fire 4, etc.) Engi does have a rare leap ability on a 1200 ranged weapon, but even then it's telegraphed and expected. Thief does have SB 5 but it's broken IMO, so whatever there. Anyway, first I would decide if you want it to be a ranged or melee weapon and go from there to think of abilities.

As far as specific abilities you suggested:

• Hammer autos need a change I agree. I like the staggered auto attacks. The current 1 sec cast time and travel time make it feel really clunky and doesn't feel like I'm hitting as hard as it should. Any change is welcome here.
• New Hammer 2 - as @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said, 20 energy on a bread and butter damage ability should not be 20 energy. Other than that, I think I see where you want to go with the ability. For a weapon 2 skill, I want it to be super reliable and deal good damage. With a small PbAoE, it will always hit people in melee range and then directed ranged enemies as well.
• New Hammer 3 - Not sure if a PURE pbAoE should be on a ranged weapon. So this is where you need to decide if it's ranged or melee. The Hammer 2 is fine because it does project outward, and the autos are ranged. So maybe think of a way this can be ranged. I can see it being used as some sort of peel when enemies get close, but it's too easy to hit at .25 sec cast time. Not much counter play here.
• Hammer 4 - Nothing changed on your list. Which is fine, it works OK. It's just a boring concept to me, but it works. It's crazy because it's basically a DH's Shield of Courage on a shorter CD and longer uptime. This ability feels OP when it's used at the right times.
• New Hammer 5 - probably my biggest issue with your suggestions. Flip skills are fun and useful, but I feel this is just too OP. A 400 instant evade that removes immob that can turn into a 900 initiation for a total of 1350 range seems absolutely broken to me. That's probably the best travel ability in the game then so I would say this needs to be paired down. As far a flip skill in general, I feel flip skills need a proc to get to the 2nd part. So somethings needs to happen on your suggested Mist Rush to allow the flip skill Hammerfall to be allowed to happen. Is it an evade? a block? Does an enemy need to be targeted and damage? Otherwise there is no counter play. Speaking of Hammerfall, it looks like you want to keep the Drop the Hammer knockdown effect, but it looks like your doing this in melee again, so not sure if this should be ranged or melee. Also, weapons don't need to have movement skills just for the sake of movement. I may just be reading out of context and pulling strings, but I read your comment in the Greatsword thread and it feels like your suggestions feel partly based on that feeling that you want a weapon with the versatility of a Ranger or Warrior Greatsword. I agree that I want some better weapon designs for Rev, so if there is a way to make it work, I'm all for it.

Anyway, that's my feedback. Might be long winded, but maybe it can get some discussion going.

[Jobber.6348]

@Jaykay.9641 said:I get the desire to change Rev hammer. It really only fills a ranged AoE niche that WvW thrives on and sometimes some PvE meta stuff. As a core Rev weapon, it's severely limiting which limits the whole class even further since there are so few weapons.

@Yasai.3549 As far as your overall suggestions, there are 2 main concerns I have with what you suggested: For a dueling weapon, all of your suggested damage abilities deal damage to 5 enemies. This usually isn't the case for a duelist weapon. 2nd, If it's a ranged weapon, there usually aren't any gap-closers or long ranged dashes on those type of weapons. If there movement skills on ranged weapons (900+ ranged), it's usually a small blink or evade ( Think Mesmer staff 2, Ele staff Fire 4, etc.) Engi does have a rare leap ability on a 1200 ranged weapon, but even then it's telegraphed and expected. Thief does have SB 5 but it's broken IMO, so whatever there. Anyway, first I would decide if you want it to be a ranged or melee weapon and go from there to think of abilities.

Good point. This is noted!

• New Hammer 2 - as @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said, 20 energy on a bread and butter damage ability should not be 20 energy. Other than that, I think I see where you want to go with the ability. For a weapon 2 skill, I want it to be super reliable and deal good damage. With a small PbAoE, it will always hit people in melee range and then directed ranged enemies as well.

Yea that's true, I was thinking more of a good cleave skill so it can be used for clearing groups of enemies as well, without changing the skill too much.

• New Hammer 3 - Not sure if a PURE pbAoE should be on a ranged weapon. So this is where you need to decide if it's ranged or melee. The Hammer 2 is fine because it does project outward, and the autos are ranged. So maybe think of a way this can be ranged. I can see it being used as some sort of peel when enemies get close, but it's too easy to hit at .25 sec cast time. Not much counter play here.

Maybe something more like a Daze or Immob will be good here, and have damage taken out of it.

• New Hammer 5 - probably my biggest issue with your suggestions. Flip skills are fun and useful, but I feel this is just too OP. A 400 instant evade that removes immob that can turn into a 900 initiation for a total of 1350 range seems absolutely broken to me. That's probably the best travel ability in the game then so I would say this needs to be paired down. As far a flip skill in general, I feel flip skills need a proc to get to the 2nd part. So somethings needs to happen on your suggested Mist Rush to allow the flip skill Hammerfall to be allowed to happen. Is it an evade? a block? Does an enemy need to be targeted and damage? Otherwise there is no counter play. Speaking of Hammerfall, it looks like you want to keep the Drop the Hammer knockdown effect, but it looks like your doing this in melee again, so not sure if this should be ranged or melee. Also, weapons don't need to have movement skills just for the sake of movement. I may just be reading out of context and pulling strings, but I read your comment in the Greatsword thread and it feels like your suggestions feel partly based on that feeling that you want a weapon with the versatility of a Ranger or Warrior Greatsword. I agree that I want some better weapon designs for Rev, so if there is a way to make it work, I'm all for it.

Actually the Flip skill Mist Rush is intended to be for Field of the Mist.Not sure if yu misread it.The intention is to have Field of the Mist be triggered first, and people will see it and be aware of them having access to their evade/dash.

I intended Hammerfall to be Phase Smash 2.0 combined with old Drop the Hammer.

The idea here is :Autos, CoR and Field of the Mist is used primarily to kite, and combat opponents from ranged.

Hammerfall and Expel will be used to catch up to running opponents.I want the kit to be able to do this without using Shiro, because frankly speaking, I don't like Shiro that much, and he doesn't support ranged combat that well.

An optimal combo here would be to use Hammerfall to jump on running targets and hitting them with Expel as a burst combo.

Thanks for the feedback, gave me lots to think about.Will probably not update the suggestions with changes, but I would like it if people just kept discussing a version of Hammer that isn't some siege - slave.

[Obtena.7952]

Many unacceptable changes being proposed from a PVE perspective. For example, IF someone is choosing a Hammer in PVE, it's because of it's long range, it's because it keeps you out of harms way. You just nerfed it's range to 900 on it's skills. You made #5 put you in melee range (and the skill looks extremely familiar with #5 staff as well).

Let's take a step back. Hammer is and always will be a long range to have some damage mitigation and maintain some functions like CC and evades. Seems to me like it's more likely if you want to 'rework' a weapon for dueling, it's not the hammer you should be looking at, it's the staff; it's MUCH closer to being the weapon you are envisioning than the hammer ever will be.

[Jobber.6348]

@Obtena.7952 said:Many unacceptable changes being proposed from a PVE perspective. For example, IF someone is choosing a Hammer in PVE, it's because of it's long range, it's because it keeps you out of harms way. You just nerfed it's range to 900 on it's skills. You made #5 put you in melee range (and the skill looks extremely familiar with #5 staff as well).

Let's take a step back. Hammer is and always will be a long range to have some damage mitigation and maintain some functions like CC and evades. Seems to me like it's more likely if you want to 'rework' a weapon for dueling, it's not the hammer you should be looking at, it's the staff; it's MUCH closer to being the weapon you are envisioning than the hammer ever will be.

Good points.Maybe that's one of the reasons why Engi Rifle performs rather poorly, because it attempts to mix long ranged autos with short ranged burst and gapcloser.

I initially thought that hammer should be reworked because its status as a zerg sieging weapon kind of contributes to its poor application in almost everywhere else (like Fractals or Raids) because it does long ranged damage pretty well but everything else kind of poorly, and when Quickness was stripped from Impossible Odds, its performance plummeted once again.

I've also mentioned how Shortbow does its job better as well.

Maybe yu are right there, this rework should be applied to Staff instead, especially since I've also suggested giving staff ranged autos before.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"Yasai.3549" said:Take what I say with a grain of salt as Rev is one of my least played classes, though I really like its weapon sets. (The legend swapping sucks imho, but that is me and is in no way a disrespect at the class)

Goal : Pull it out of it's current Sieging style of use and make it more of a dueling weapon.

Current Hammer skills:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolthttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruinhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smashhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Field_of_the_Mistshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer

Proposed Hammer skills

Damage numbers are pve numbers

Hammering Bolts (Auto)Activation time : 1sRange : 900Combo Finisher : Projectile (25%)Damage : 355 (3x)Description :Rapidly fires 3 shots of mist energy at a target. Animation would be similar to Mesmer's Greatsword auto spin.Make it 1200 range instead of 900 and a 20% Projectile finisher like other ranged AA's.Coalescence of Ruin (Skill 2)Energy : 20Recharge : 10sActivation time : 0.75sRange : 900Radius : 400, expanding from casterDamage : 706Targets : 5Description :A conal blast of Energy expanding from the Revenant.Again Hammer is the only core Ranged weapon for Rev, keep it to 1200 range.Expel (Skill 3)Energy : 15Recharge : 8sActivation time : 0.25Radius : 350Combo Finisher : BlastDamage : 706Inflicts Chill (3s)Targets : 5Description :The Revenant expels the Mist violently, chilling targets hit.I don't like self roots on principal though this one DOES offer evade frames, so one could argue that the self root is fine unlike with 100B, Flurry, and Killshot. That said I hate all self roots. Vanilla version is good with someone in your face so you can buy time while doing damage, but as a ranged skill is bad in competitive play. Honestly allowing you to 'move' during the activation so that you reappear where you 'moved' too during the channel time would be the best change. Imagine the headgames :wink: I say 'moved' in quotes since your character is in melee during the animation but your camera never moves. Just let the camera keep moving at normal character movement speeds, adjusted for speed buffs if applicable, and let you reappear wherever the camera is once the skill ends.Field of the Mist (Skill 4)Energy : 10Recharge : 15sActivation time : 0.25Core mechanic : unchanged

Flip skill : Mist RushEnergy : 10Recharge : 12sActivation time : InstantRange : 400Evade : 1sRemoves ImmobTargets : 5Description :The Revenant envelops themselves in the Mist and rushes forward.I am a fan of more flip overs as they add depth of gameplay and more head games. I think that keeping Phase Smash, but unrooting it so you can 'move' would be best, and then giving Mist Rush as a flip over to Field of the Mist for another evade would be better synergy. I would reduce the evade frames to 3/4s like other such skills, cause ya know balance and what not.HammerfallEnergy : 20Recharge : 20sActivation time : 0.75Damage : 706Range : 900Radius : 350Targets : 5Combo Finisher : LeapEvade : 1sInflicts Knockdown (1.5s)Description :The Revenant launches themselves toward the target location, dealing damage and knocking down enemies.Ideally it would be 0.5s activation time. IF Phase smash becomes mobile AND Mist Rush is added as a flipover skill to Field of the Mists then I would say take the evade frames off of your Hammerfall and add in 1s of Stability instead.

My 2 copper fwiw as a warrior main who wants to love rev more but is too attached to his main to deal with legend swapping.

[Justine.6351]

CoR,

Has a garbage cascade.Has a slow cast, a slow cascade and is ground targeted.Has a long recharge.Has weak damage.

With all of those stacked its just frustrating to use.

Your changes don't really bring it back into play for any type of rev. You would be better off suggesting changes to shortbow for a mid range damage weapon. I remember when they split ranger longbow and shortbow by changing their effective range, up for longbow and down for shortbow. It pretty much killed shortbow as it ended up with no damage, short range and no survivability. I played something I called Condi longbow probably more effectively than a ranger using shortbow as Condi. That's how mediocre shortbow for ranger is. That's how even more so mediocre your hammer would be.

Hammer Rev as a whole was fine a couple years ago. but when they remove 99% of damage from 4 of its skills and slow it down in cast, animation and cooldown it is no wonder it just up and died. It has no teeth and all it has to show for it is just slow and awkward.

[Fueki.4753]

Arenanet ought to revert the rework on Coalescence of Ruin (and Surge of the Mists) and make it enemy-targetted again.But them reverting things is extremely rare.

[Justine.6351]

@Fueki.4753 said:Arenanet ought to revert the rework on Coalescence of Ruin (and Surge of the Mists) and make it enemy-targetted again.But them reverting things is extremely rare.

If it was mesmer they would merge cor and phase smash while removing the evade and not giving a new skill 2 to hammer :s

[Tapi.7329]

You'd take away 2 skills why I'm playing revenant for: Hammer skill 2 & 3 named coalescence of ruin and phase smash. I love both animations and the only reason I'm playing this class...

[Jobber.6348]

@Tapi.7329 said:You'd take away 2 skills why I'm playing revenant for: Hammer skill 2 & 3 named coalescence of ruin and phase smash. I love both animations and the only reason I'm playing this class...

If yu only play Rev for 2 skills on a single weapon set, one of which has horrible consistency problems, maybe yu shouldn't play Rev.Just saying.

[Tapi.7329]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Tapi.7329 said:You'd take away 2 skills why I'm playing revenant for: Hammer skill 2 & 3 named coalescence of ruin and phase smash. I love both animations and the only reason I'm playing this class...

If yu only play Rev for 2 skills on a single weapon set, one of which has horrible consistency problems, maybe yu shouldn't play Rev.Just saying.

Sadly in this game most skills that I find interesting are useless. and liking hammer 2&3 are fine for WvW

[Sereath.1428]

Can we just please have the old Hammer 2? At the very least?

Even after the numerous nerfs to its damage and increased cooldown (from 2 to 4 to 10 seconds) they still had the audacity to slow down its animation even more. And at the same time it fails more than ever now to deal any damage over uneven terrain.

Sorry for the ranting inside your thread OP. It's just that we shouldn't overthink things too much, neither should ANET.

[Virdo.1540]

Imo we are at the point, where hammer could be removed.

I mean i would prefer throwing Axe 4 & Dwarf Chain, just to have some ranged skills.