If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Sobx.1758]

@Firebeard.1746So you want for every raid mechanic to be fully dependable on EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE 10 PEOPLE IN THE RAID (because apparently only then you can have true cooperation), but at the same time on the last page (or 2 pages ago, w/e, not going to bother checking) you complained about being "held hostage by a single person that fails" LOL. I see without a change you still keep going back-and-forth on your own claims.

And now you've also derailed the fresh thread about easy mode RIGHT into talk about legendary armor acquisition between the modes. Are you even trying [to pretend it was EVER about raids] anymore?

Edited May 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

33 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

@Firebeard.1746So you want for every raid mechanic to be fully dependable on EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE 10 PEOPLE IN THE RAID (because apparently only then you can have true cooperation), but at the same time on the last page (or 2 pages ago, w/e, not going to bother checking) you complained about being "held hostage by a single person that fails" LOL. I see without a change you still keep going back-and-forth on your own claims.

 

 

Except: in chains other users can respond as well and move out of the way, so they're not nearly as powerless as people in the scenarios I mentioned.  This is a clear example of you just being contrary to be contrary

 

Quote

And now you've also derailed the fresh thread about easy mode RIGHT into talk about legendary armor acquisition between the modes. Are you even trying [to pretend it was EVER about raids] anymore?

You're the one that started with complaining that people who want to do easy mode just want legendaries and don't deserve them. You also insinuate people will never do the hard modes, even if the drip rate is lower. Neither of these make sense. The first point doesn't because it still takes more effort to do even the 10-man easy strikes than other legendary acquisition methods. Even with me saying fine, make the rewards different than hard mode you still have this aversion. The second point about no participation in hard mode makes no sense when people do T4s all the time with the t1s giving the same rewards at lower drip rates. And I would argue, that it is about raids, because increasing participation, will bring more people into the game mode and I know more people will come, with both a more accessible version and rewards. In fact, my initial OP openly admitted my idea wouldn't work for me, so you're completely wrong about me, I did suggest something that I thought would get more involvement, but it wasn't about me at all. I believe giving people rewards for doing MMO content is a valid way of increasing participation if that's the goal.

So I'd say you derailed this discussion and you've refused to even acknowledge your arguments or make sound ones to the contrary. And now you're sidestepping by attacking me. Gaslight much?

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

Different mechanics in different encounters, still need cooperation, still not sure what point you're going for here.

 

21 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You're the one that started with complaining

 

What? I am talking about the new thread created yesterday that you've already derailed into legendary acquisition with your very first response, lmao.

 

21 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

So I'd say you derailed this discussion and you've refused to even acknowledge your arguments or make sound ones to the contrary. And now you're sidestepping by attacking me. Gaslight much?

Just go read your own posts in the thread "How would you do an easy mode in raids?" and stop randomly throwing "gaslighting" around, oof.

 

...I didn't "refuse to acknowledge my arguments", what are you even talking about?

Edited May 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

Quote

Different mechanics in different encounters, still need cooperation, still not sure what point you're going for here.

Makes no sense in context. You were talking about what good cooperative 10-man mechanics were and asked me, I gave an example.
 

Quote

What? I am talking about the new thread created yesterday that you've already derailed into legendary acquisition with your very first response, lmao.

Except the very first response to the thread said:

 

Quote

No LI or rewards other than the unid.

From infusion. So you guys are the ones talking about leggies first. And I'm merely pointing out how non sequitur it is that you want casual PVE players to be rewarded even less than casual players from other game modes, even if they're doing harder content. You guys are ridiculous. More gaslighting, you guys come in swinging about that crap. I had seen the response from infusion and that's why I stated what I stated. I didn't quote him because I didn't want another useless scuffle like this, but it ended happening anyway when he started understating effort required in other game modes.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Makes no sense in context. You were talking about what good cooperative 10-man mechanics were and asked me, I gave an example.

It does, but I won't be bothered repeating last 2 pages, have fun with that.

 

Quote

Except the very first response to the thread said:

 

From infusion. So you guys are the ones talking about leggies first. And I'm merely pointing out how non sequitur it is that you want casual PVE players to be rewarded even less than casual players from other game modes, even if they're doing harder content. You guys are ridiculous. More gaslighting, you guys come in swinging about that crap.

Oh, so you both derailed it, but at least he wrote some specifics, while you wrote something about "forming the bridge between KP and actually doing the real thing, kind of like T1 fractals to t4, making training runs unnecessary.:" which tbh I have absolutely no idea what it means.

 

Also I don't know why you said "you guys are the ones talking about leggies first" as if I had anything to do with it? 🤔

 

Anyways, I already wrote why leggies in easy mode does nothing for "saving raids" and why it's a good idea to funnel people into regular raiding if you want easier pug group access. Guess I'll just keep copy-pasting stuff soon, because why bother re-typing everything for Xth time.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Also I don't know why you said "you guys" as if I had anything to do with it? 🤔

I'm referring to you and him obviously, are you asserting you have a different platform than him? But it's a sentiment I've seen from more elitist ends of the PVE community that love to troll these forums, so it works in context.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm referring to you and him obviously, are you asserting you have a different platform than him? But it's a sentiment I've seen from more elitist ends of the PVE community that love to troll these forums, so it works in context.

Obviously by "you guys" you meant at least "him and me", the point is I had nothing to do with bringing up leggies there, take a deep breath and keep up.

(and sure, keep calling anyone that disagrees with you "trolls", that will work well)

 

I guess I'll wait for something more interesting AND relevant to read in this thread. Until then have fun repeating same stuff -maybe I'll hop in to copy/paste the response I already gave before if you summon me with enough "LI/LD/leggies!" repetitions, because apparently this is what this thread currently is  o/

Edited May 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

45 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Oh, so you both derailed it, but at least he wrote some specifics, while you wrote something about "forming the bridge between KP and actually doing the real thing, kind of like T1 fractals to t4, making training runs unnecessary.:" which tbh I have absolutely no idea what it means.

 

100% intentional. I've already given my ideas here. Why repeat them to have this scuffle again? Maybe someone can come up with something better. Establishing a framework for what could accomplish it is fine. That's basically what I was trying to achieve with my suggestion here.

 

Quote

I guess I'll wait for something more interesting AND relevant to read in this thread. Until then have fun repeating same stuff -maybe I'll hop in to copy/paste the response I already gave before if you summon me with enough "LI/LD/leggies!" repetitions, because apparently this is what this thread currently is  o/

 

Except you haven't actually made a good argument as to why the training mode would stop people from doing the harder ones with my T1-t4 fractal question or even explained why your position on rewards for more difficult PVE (strike level difficulty content) gives less than more casual PVP modes in terms of legendary progression, but okay.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Linken.6345]

38 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

100% intentional. I've already given my ideas here. Why repeat them to have this scuffle again? Maybe someone can come up with something better. Establishing a framework for what could accomplish it is fine. That's basically what I was trying to achieve with my suggestion here.

 

 

Except you haven't actually made a good argument as to why the training mode would stop people from doing the harder ones with my T1-t4 fractal question or even explained why your position on rewards for more difficult PVE (strike level difficulty content) gives less than more casual PVP modes in terms of legendary progression, but okay.

 

Except the fractal t1-t4 chests drop not the same stuff mate.

Check the common, uncommon and rare sections.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Initiate's_Chest

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Adept's_Chest

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Expert's_Chest

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Master's_Chest

[Firebeard.1746]

31 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

Except the fractal t1-t4 chests drop not the same stuff mate.

Check the common, uncommon and rare sections.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Initiate's_Chest

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Adept's_Chest

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Expert's_Chest

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_Master's_Chest

Which of those can't you buy with fractal relics or other mats from T1s? Including things purchased with gold? You can still get a full set of ascended armor from the fractal research pages from the t1 chests. You can still advance your account the same amount, it just takes longer.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Linken.6345]

48 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Which of those can't you buy with fractal relics or other mats from T1s? Including things purchased with gold? You can still get a full set of ascended armor from the fractal research pages from the t1 chests. You can still advance your account the same amount, it just takes longer.

 

From the top of my head the Celestial Infusion (Blue)

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

From the top of my head the Celestial Infusion (Blue)

Purchaseable with gold from the TP. It's actually not too bad and cheap compared to other infusions. 

Not only that, but you can make your own +5 stat infusions with the agony essences, while not shiny, they accomplish the same thing

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Linken.6345]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Purchaseable with gold from the TP. It's actually not too bad and cheap compared to other infusions. 

Not only that, but you can make your own +5 stat infusions with the agony essences, while not shiny, they accomplish the same thing

Well with that argument you can buy raid legendary progression aswell from only doing tier 1 fractals.

Just take longer as the sellers require abit of gold.

[Sobx.1758]

56 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Which of those can't you buy with fractal relics or other mats from T1s? Including things purchased with gold? You can still get a full set of ascended armor from the fractal research pages from the t1 chests (or h. You can still advance your account the same amount, it just takes longer.

Luckily you can pay for LI/LD with gold too.

Including that in easy mode does nothing for saving raids, you can stop pretending it was ever about anything else than just leg armor acquisition for you. 😞

 

 

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Not only that, but you can make your own +5 stat infusions with the agony essences, while not shiny, they accomplish the same thing

Not only that, but you can also just easier and faster craft mutliple ascended sets, which accomplish the same thing (while not shiny, except you can use transmutation shards or outfits to make them shiny).

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Luckily you can pay for LI/LD with gold too.

Including that in easy mode does nothing for saving raids, you can stop pretending it was ever about anything else than just leg armor acquisition for you. 😞

Except the game doesn't actually facilitate this, can I purchase it on the TP? Can I purchase the required collections on the TP? No. Being forced to go to outside sellers obfuscates real market value.

You can still also craft a functionally identical equivalent, which you're opposed to in easy mode, so you're being inconsistent.
 

Quote

Not only that, but you can also just easier and faster craft mutliple ascended sets, which accomplish the same thing (while not shiny, except you can use transmutation shards or outfits to make them shiny).

Really? I thought the point of crafting the +5s was to upgrade the armor.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Scorgrim.5290]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Which of those can't you buy with fractal relics or other mats from T1s? Including things purchased with gold? You can still get a full set of ascended armor from the fractal research pages from the t1 chests. You can still advance your account the same amount, it just takes longer.

all the things that need unstable fractals essenses(which only drops from doing cms) to buy like the abyssal infusion for example.

[Linken.6345]

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Except the game doesn't actually facilitate this, can I purchase it on the TP? Can I purchase the required collections on the TP? No. Being forced to go to outside sellers obfuscates real market value.

You can still also craft a functionally identical equivalent, which you're opposed to in easy mode, so you're being inconsistent.
 

Really? I thought the point of crafting the +5s was to upgrade the armor.

If people already have easy access to legendary armor, why is another one needed?

Just go do that one.

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Except the game doesn't actually facilitate this, can I purchase it on the TP? Can I purchase the required collections on the TP? No. Being forced to go to outside sellers obfuscates real market value.

The devs know about selling raids and don't punish that. The fact that you think "the game doesn't actually facilitate this" is irrelevant. The fact that "it doesn't use TP" is irrelevant.

 

And you're not "forced" into anything. "You" can learn the content and complete it by "yourself" just like many other people did. And if you for some reason can't because it's hard to get into the raids? Well, that's where the idea of easier training with funnelling those players into actual raiding content comes from.

 

5 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You can still also craft a functionally identical equivalent, which you're opposed to in easy mode, so you're being inconsistent.

...?

 

5 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Really? I thought the point of crafting the +5s was to upgrade the armor.

...?

I was still comparing lege/ascended armor there the same way you did with infusions.

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

If people already have easy access to legendary armor, why is another one needed?

Just go do that one.

This is exactly what people are doing. I don't see how not having an easier method of the content wouldn't be way to get them interested in a more difficult one, maybe if they're bored? Just like people do t4s?

 

2 minutes ago, Scorgrim.5290 said:

all the things that need unstable fractals essenses(which only drops from doing cms) to buy like the abyssal infusion for example.

I said T4s, not CMs. But even then, the only thing you're really missing out on is those skins, there's no functional difference like say a legendary.

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

The devs know about selling raids and don't punish that. The fact that you think "the game doesn't actually facilitate this" is irrelevant. The fact that "it doesn't use TP" is irrelevant.

Except they can scam me every time. There's nothing stopping them from just taking the money and leaving. Or wasting my time with a failed run if they ask for it after, buying and selling on the TP isn't the same as buying and selling outside it. If it's on the TP it's right there and no shenanigans can interrupt my acquisition.

[Sobx.1758]

22 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

If people already have easy access to legendary armor, why is another one needed?

Just go do that one.

...but as he wrote in another thread, he "wants a different way to get legendary armor, because he doesn't like any of the current ones", so while this thread is titled "how would you save raids", in reality it's actually "maybe we could remake raids into something else, so we can get a new way of getting legendary armor".

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758
need => like. "need" makes no sense in that place, so it's a pretty obvious mistake

[Firebeard.1746]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...but as he wrote in another thread, he "wants a different way to get legendary armor, because he doesn't need any of the current ones", so while this thread is titled "how would you save raids", in reality it's actually "maybe we could remake raids into something else, so we can get a new way of getting legendary armor".

No you're twisting my words again, I just want my time in PVE to be worth it. You still haven't explained why sPVP/WvW are more rewarding than strikes.
 

Quote

 

...?

I was still comparing lege/ascended armor there the same way you did with infusions.

 

Except you can't freely swap stats and experiment in the same way with ascended armor that you can with legendaries, free of charge and without losing upgrade items.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Linken.6345]

13 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

No you're twisting my words again, I just want my time in PVE to be worth it.

 

And how is it not worth it if all you cant get from that mode is legendary armor?

Something most people wont even need ever.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Linken.6345

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

This is exactly what people are doing. I don't see how not having an easier method of the content wouldn't be way to get them interested in a more difficult one, maybe if they're bored? Just like people do t4s?

For the exact reason you just spelled out: because those -hypothetical or not- people aren't interested in that content, they just go for the easiest way of acquisition. Woah, mind blown, I know. If you want people to get interested in content, you need to get them interested in content, instead what you're offering is "get this rewards and get out". Just like x pages ago, it does nothing for "saving raids".

 

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Except they can scam me every time. There's nothing stopping them from just taking the money and leaving. Or wasting my time with a failed run if they ask for it after, buying and selling on the TP isn't the same as buying and selling outside it. If it's on the TP it's right there and no shenanigans can interrupt my acquisition.

Except that still doesn't change anything about what was written above, but nice try. I'm also somehow missing all those complaints about people getting scammed there, hmm...

 

5 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

No you're twisting my words again, I just want my time in PVE to be worth it. You still haven't explained why sPVP/WvW are more rewarding than strikes.

No, I'm not, I've already linked that post in this thread, lmao.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

For the exact reason you just spelled out: because those -hypothetical or not- people aren't interested in that content, they just go for the easiest way of acquisition.

This makes no sense when I've already spelled out strikes are more difficult than what I'm doing now, but if you want fewer people engaged in PVE that's fine.