If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[mindcircus.1506]

2 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

because I've done enough training runs to know that even when it's not my fault, I can still fail a raid for some random person failing their role (slubs, pusher, tank, etc) and if you don't have a reliable way of being a in a group with someone that's learned the particular role, you can end up in training run hell. Which by the way, training runs are everything you've described minus rewards and they don't exactly work as a method for engagement. I'm by no means perfect, but have experienced this. Many times. And is actually why I don't muck around in raids often. I guess I could hypocritically post LF X members for Y raids, 100 kp and spoof KP if people ask me, but that's just dumb and a game shouldn't be asking me to do this.

This is the second time in this thread you have described being on training runs and passed along anecdotes about players fudging mechanics and inferred that you (a player with self-admitted limited raid experience) should not have to play with players like that.
Classic Dunning–Kruger.

[Firebeard.1746]

15 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

This is the second time in this thread you have described being on training runs and passed along anecdotes about players fudging mechanics and inferred that you (a player with self-admitted limited raid experience) should not have to play with players like that.
Classic Dunning–Kruger.

Except I haven't said I shouldn't? Also you're clearly ignoring the part where I'm saying I refuse to post an exp only group in LFG lol.  I'm saying that's why you need a static bro. Clearly not reading my posts (had you read the rest of the convo you would see this. Heck you didn't even read the whole post that I made XD). When I say static, I'm not implying super exp. If I were to make my static, I would do any skill level and work on people from there.

I will say though that the raids in this game are not well designed with people with disabilities in mind either, which could make them exclusive in that sense.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[mindcircus.1506]

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I will say though that the raids in this game are not well designed with people with disabilities in mind either, which could make them exclusive in that sense.

With "disabilities"?

Like.... all of them?

I mean correct me if I am wrong but having only one leg would be considered a disability. Would this impact a player's ability to raid and make them "exclusive"?

 

Does the lack of descriptive audio for the visually impaired make them exclusive?

Because you are certainly correct, raids in this video game are a real crap experience for blind people.

 

Or do you have a list of "acceptable disabilities" that Arenanet should be keeping in mind while designing content?

[Firebeard.1746]

7 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

With "disabilities"?

Like.... all of them?

I mean correct me if I am wrong but having only one leg would be considered a disability. Would this impact a player's ability to raid and make them "exclusive"?

 

Does the lack of descriptive audio for the visually impaired make them exclusive?

Because you are certainly correct, raids in this video game are a real crap experience for blind people.

 

Or do you have a list of "acceptable disabilities" that Arenanet should be keeping in mind while designing content?

Well I'm curious how well people with ADHD perform in them,. particularly in DPS roles. I noticed that there's not a huge difference in the green tint in sloth and my far more experienced RL told me people with colorblindness say sloth is a nightmare.

Both of these are fairly common disabilities.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[mindcircus.1506]

12 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Well I'm curious how well people with ADHD perform in them,. particularly in DPS roles. I noticed that there's not a huge difference in the green tint in sloth and my far more experienced RL told me people with colorblindness say sloth is a nightmare.

Both of these are fairly common disabilities.

-One 2019 study estimates an adult ADHD prevalence in North America of 0.96 percent

-Findings from the 2018 National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) data release established that an estimated 32.2 million adult Americans (or about 13% of all adult Americans) reported they either "have trouble" seeing, even when wearing glasses or contact lenses, or that they are blind or unable to see at all.

 

So ADHD is an acceptable disability to design around because you believe it to be "fairly common", but vision impairment is not?

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/3/2021 at 11:37 PM, Firebeard.1746 said:

The easy mode is pointless if people aren't graduating and I'm pointing out how it will fall apart (especially as you're gaiting the legendaries out, that's what people will want in the long run).

 

You're not "pointing out how it will fall apart", you simply state that to "graduate" you need statics (which you also base on comparing any normal raid squad to... training raids for some reason), which is straight up false. I also told you how people could transition from easy to normal considering easy would have kps. LI is irrelevant if people understand the mechanics, which kps are enough of a proof of.

 

Quote

There's not really a difference between your suggested easy mode and the existence of training groups.

 

...so what was your idea for "saving raids" again?

Edited May 5, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

46 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

 

You're "not pointing out how it will fall apart", you simply state that to "graduate" you need statics (which you also base on comparing any normal raid squad to... training raids for some reason), which is straight up false. I also told you how people could transition from easy to normal considering normal would have kps. LI is irrelevant if people understand the mechanics, which kps are enough of a proof of.

 

 

...so what was your idea for "saving raids" again?

So you think that people will take easy mode KP as currency for exp in PuGGing the normal mode? I don't buy it.

Similar to yours except people actually have incentive to do the easier mode and an easy way of knowing if they can progress right then and there. That's the subtle difference here, you still practice but if you're in a bad group, you still get something, if you're in a good group, you get even more and can safely take them to the harder one. It's basically solving the hole in yours.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

-One 2019 study estimates an adult ADHD prevalence in North America of 0.96 percent

-Findings from the 2018 National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) data release established that an estimated 32.2 million adult Americans (or about 13% of all adult Americans) reported they either "have trouble" seeing, even when wearing glasses or contact lenses, or that they are blind or unable to see at all.

 

So ADHD is an acceptable disability to design around because you believe it to be "fairly common", but vision impairment is not?

Where are you getting the .9% from?

I'm seeing 9.4% from the CDC for children:
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html

I agree visual impairment is bad and can be designed around? I mentioned one example? I feel like you took the one off hand idea in my post ran with it to ignore the fact you made up crap about me clearly ignoring my posts, and I'm fairly certain you're misquoting your article given the CDC's data.

Also note that there are many people who made it into adulthood undiagnosed. A significant number of people I know have been diagnosed as adults, when people were growing up in previous generations it wasn't looked for.

[Linken.6345]

11 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

So you think that people will take easy mode KP as currency for exp in PuGGing the normal mode? I don't buy it.

Similar to yours except people actually have incentive to do the easier mode and an easy way of knowing if they can progress right then and there. That's the subtle difference here, you still practice but if you're in a bad group, you still get something, if you're in a good group, you get even more and can safely take them to the harder one. It's basically solving the hole in yours.

 

So 2 blues a green and 1 guaranteed rare low chance of ascended rings + half gold from normal.

Shouldent that be enough incentive?

[Firebeard.1746]

20 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

So 2 blues a green and 1 guaranteed rare low chance of ascended rings + half gold from normal.

Shouldent that be enough incentive?

So my idea would have a significantly lower drip rate of LIs/LDs for people who can't raid, the incentive there to do the harder content is it's much faster & it's a good thing to jump on it when you have a good group. This idea for rewards doesn't really differentiate the lower tiers enough from other content imo, but I wouldn't be opposed to anet trying it and if enough PuGs end up strong enough to tranisition ala my suggestion, it could work, but if enough don't, then it will fail.

I do want to point out that other MMOs are fine giving people doing the easier version unique rewards associated with raid content. There are differences in armor appearance, often, but they're still unique (sometimes better, there were some raid finder tiers I liked better in WOW). If you guys have your panties in knots over more casual players having animated envoy armor, they could just make a separate version for the "easy mode" legendaries. I mean you can AFK lose for legendary PVP mistforged armor (it takes longer, but you can). And I'd want it to look better than that PVP armor given that you actually have to work with other players to get it. In fact it's kind of funny hearing you guys sneeze about an organized group getting a legendary when this is the case in-game today with PVP armor.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

delete me

Edited May 4, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Linken.6345]

14 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

So my idea would have a significantly lower drip rate of LIs/LDs for people who can't raid, the incentive there to do the harder content is it's much faster & it's a good thing to jump on it when you have a good group. This idea for rewards doesn't really differentiate the lower tiers enough from other content imo, but I wouldn't be opposed to anet trying it and if enough PuGs end up strong enough to tranisition ala my suggestion, it could work, but if enough don't, then it will fail.

I do want to point out that other MMOs are fine giving people doing the easier version unique rewards associated with raid content. There are differences in armor appearance, often, but they're still unique (sometimes better, there were some raid finder tiers I liked better in WOW). If you guys have your panties in knots over more casual players having animated envoy armor, they could just make a separate version for the "easy mode" legendaries. I mean you can AFK lose for legendary PVP mistforged armor (it takes longer, but you can). And I'd want it to look better than that PVP armor given that you actually have to work with other players to get it. In fact it's kind of funny hearing you guys sneeze about an organized group getting a legendary when this is the case in-game today with PVP armor.

 

Organized groups already can get legendary the do the mode already availaible.

Easy mode would kinda be like dragon storm level of difficulty right?

That dont award any path to legendarys.

Other gamse got gear threadmills with item levels so the lower tiers dont drop the same levels, Gw2 thankfully dont have that problem hence why you have the drop lesser grades instead.

[Firebeard.1746]

20 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

Organized groups already can get legendary the do the mode already availaible.

Easy mode would kinda be like dragon storm level of difficulty right?

That dont award any path to legendarys.

Other gamse got gear threadmills with item levels so the lower tiers dont drop the same levels, Gw2 thankfully dont have that problem hence why you have the drop lesser grades instead.

By organized I meant working through LFG, you don't have to do that  in PVP. I was comparing the effort between PVP and a hypothetical acquisition method involved in finding and working with other players if they made a strike version of raids. Do you really think it's healthy for a game to have such low participation in the raid scene as designed but hand out legendaries for solo AFK PVPing? We've already talked about PuGGing plenty in this thread and I haven't seen good evidence of it working outside of requiring KP, which I don't think should be the design (nor should spoofing it be required as well).

Though I would say that my idea of a lower drip rate on participation in the strike version of the raids isn't completely foreign to this game either. Fractals are a good example, you can earn everything that fractal vendors sell only doing T1s.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

59 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

So you think that people will take easy mode KP as currency for exp in PuGGing the normal mode? I don't buy it.

 

I mean you also try to pretend that you need to be part of statics to do regular raiding or that I need 100 kp+ so I can join successful pugs, so not sure what else you want me to say here. I know for a fact that's a false statement on your part.

And whether people would honor those kps as a sign of people learning the encounters or not is hard to be absolutely sure about without having it in the game. It depends on what exactly easy modes would be, for now it seems to be just a vague idea and not much more. Maybe some people would, maybe some wouldn't. Maybe most would, beacuse at least it means people successfully went through encounters. Or maybe all of it is just wishful thinking and nothing can truly save raids.

 

59 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Similar to yours except people actually have incentive to do the easier mode and an easy way of knowing if they can progress right then and there. That's the subtle difference here, you still practice but if you're in a bad group, you still get something, if you're in a good group, you get even more and can safely take them to the harder one. It's basically solving the hole in yours.

So what exactly is that difference?

[Firebeard.1746]

23 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I mean you also try to pretend that you need to be part of statics to do regular raiding or that I need 100 kp+ so I can join successful pugs, so not sure what else you want me to say here. I know for a fact that's a false statement on your part.

And whether people would honor those kps as a sign of people learning the encounters or not is hard to be absolutely sure about without having it in the game. It depends on what exactly easy modes would be, for now it seems to be just a vague idea and not much more. Maybe some people would, maybe some wouldn't. Maybe most would, beacuse at least it means people successfully went through encounters. Or maybe all of it is just wishful thinking and nothing can truly save raids.

It's funny for you to be saying this when you sidestepped my questions about requiring KP on your PuG runs and not explaining how/where you're organizing your groups when I asked previously. I mean gee, if it was as simple as just making a PuG group, why aren't more people doing it then? Strikes show people are willing to do this. Pretending the community can just up and PuG these isn't honest to the discussion or the reality of raids. 

 

 

Quote

So what exactly is that difference?

Do you really want me to retype it out for the 3rd time? Or can you just read my OP and my response?

Edited May 4, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

46 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It's funny for you to be saying this when you sidestepped my questions about requiring KP on your PuG runs and not explaining how/where you're organizing your groups when I asked previously.

 

Oh, I initially answered to that and then got rid of it after I've changed the response, because it seemed like too obvious of an answer to even be worth putting in my post.

What do you even mean "how and where do you pug"? Where do you think people usually pug?

I can assure you that I wasn't pugging with "groups asking for 100 kps" and I've started from trainings with randoms on lfg. I rarely even need to create a squad by myself, so I don't need to ask for kp and as I already wrote before it absolutely isn't anywhere near 100kps like you try to repeatedly claim.

 

 

Quote

I mean gee, if it was as simple as just making a PuG group, why aren't more people doing it then? Strikes show people are willing to do this. The community must be such stupid idiots just not making PuGs for raids when it's so easy and they give so much more. Pretending the community can just up and PuG these isn't honest to the discussion or the reality of raids. 

 

I mean gee, isn't that at least one of the problems we try to solve here? People being scared of failing in raids? Or people not knowing how to start/not knowing where to initially look for help? You can keep pretending that people don't/can't pug raids, but it's just completely false since -as I've already wrote multiple times, zzz- that's pretty much all I did/do in raids since I've started. You can like it, you can dislike it... Apparently you don't even pug (seriously, not sure what other conclusion I'm supposed to get from your last few posts about statics) and then talk about pugs. Not sure why you'd do that, but maybe just for the sake of pretending that "ez loot is the solution regardless of anything, beacuse you either static or fail".

 

And I don't care what you think about people that couldn't make it work or didn't know where to start or w/e, I saw the complaints and I've tried to address them. Who or what those people are to you or anyone else is irrelevant. And no, it's not dishonest, people might just... not want to learn the content and there's nothing you can do about it 😮 It's not "dishonest" just because it doesn't fit your idea/understanding.

 

tl;dr: "to graduate to normal raiding people would need statics" -absolutely not, your claim is just wrong.

 

Quote

Do you really want me to retype it out for the 3rd time? Or can you just read my OP and my response?

I've responded before I've read the rest of the posts below that one.

 

"So my idea would have a significantly lower drip rate of LIs/LDs for people who can't raid" -so there it is again, it's still jsut about legendaries.

1. I fail to see how "lower drip rate of LIs/LDs" is somehow giving people "an easy way of knowing if they can progress right then and there" in any other way regular KP would. You killed a boss? You got the mark for what you did? Well, apparently you're progressing/getting better/learning the content. You don't need LI/LD to know you're making progress, not sure what that weird claim is?

 

2. I fail to see how getting miniscule fragments of li/lds would be supposed to help people move on to actual regular raiding content. If it doesn't then you're not interested in "Saving raids", you're interested in "easy legendary access", so it misses the point of the question from the title of the thread.

 

3. You mention these would be rewards for "people who can't raid" -The whole point is for the people to learn to raid. And once they learn raid encounters (all or not), they can raid and get rewards for completing the content. Instead of... you know, getting rewards for bruteforcing easymode.

 

4. If your idea of "saving raids" is just... "letting people get legendary armor from easy mode even if they don't learn how to actually raid", then you're just pulling in people that would do exactly that: force their way to rewards in easy modes without bothering to learn, get rewarded and abandon the content. So if your goal is to pull some people short-term into stricly easy mode for leges, then yeah, maybe what you say here would work for that -but that's not saving raids.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Oh, I initially answered to that and then got rid of it after I've changed the response, because it seemed like too obvious of an answer to even be worth putting in my post.

What do you even mean "how and where do you pug"? Where do you think people usually pug?

I can assure you that I wasn't pugging with "groups asking for 100 kps" and I've started from trainings with randoms on lfg. I rarely even need to create a squad by myself, so I don't need to ask for kp and as I already wrote before it absolutely isn't anywhere near 100kps like you try to repeatedly claim.

KP in and of itself is bad because it doesn't expand the community. KP is the reason raids have been struggling so bad, but thanks for confirming my suspicions. And 100 isn't uncommon, I've seen it before.

 

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I mean gee, isn't that at least one of the problems we try to solve here? People being scared of failing in raids? Or people not knowing how to start/not knowing where to initially look for help? You can keep pretending that people don't/can't pug raids, but it's just completely false since -as I've already wrote multiple times, zzz- that's pretty much all I did/do in raids since I've started. You can like it, you can dislike it... Apparently you don't even pug (seriously, not sure what other conclusion I'm supposed to get from your last few posts about statics) and then talk about pugs. Not sure why you'd do that, but maybe just for the sake of pretending that "ez loot is the solution regardless of anything, beacuse you either static or fail".

 

And I don't care what you think about people that couldn't make it work or didn't know where to start or w/e, I saw the complaints and I've tried to address them. Who or what those people are to you or anyone else is irrelevant. And no, it's not dishonest, people might just... not want to learn the content and there's nothing you can do about it 😮 It's not "dishonest" just because it doesn't fit your idea/understanding.

 

tl;dr: "to graduate to normal raiding people would need statics" -absolutely not, your claim is just wrong.

Raid participation says otherwise, heck the NA discord for organizing raids for outsiders has fewer successfully organized groups than when I first started. It used to be no matter what time of night there was usually enough interested parties to start a run.

For me, it's correct because I don't always have the KP required to get into groups. And when I do, I still end up in raid hell because those 3 people.

 

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"So my idea would have a significantly lower drip rate of LIs/LDs for people who can't raid" -so there it is again, it's still jsut about legendaries.

1. I fail to see how "lower drip rate of LIs/LDs" is somehow giving people "an easy way of knowing if they can progress right then and there" in any other way regular KP would. You killed a boss? You got the mark for what you did? Well, apparently you're progressing/getting better/learning the content. You don't need LI/LD to know you're making progress, not sure what that weird claim is?

1) You obviously didn't read my whole post, because I explicitly talk about giving indicators to help groups decide if they can keep going and do the real version. This is basically a help to keep people involved in case they keep getting bad luck with groups, which is basically the issue with pugging raids. And they'll have every incentive to do the encounter when their group did well on the strike.

 

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

3. You mention these would be rewards for "people who can't raid" -The whole point is for the people to learn to raid. And once they learn raid encounters (all or not), they can raid and get rewards for completing the content. Instead of... you know, getting rewards for bruteforcing easymode.

 

4. If your idea of "saving raids" is just... "letting people get legendary armor from easy mode even if they don't learn how to actually raid", then you're just pulling in people that would do exactly that: force their way to rewards in easy modes without bothering to learn, get rewarded and abandon the content. So if your goal is to pull some people short-term into stricly easy mode for leges, then yeah, maybe what you say here would work for that -but that's not saving raids.

Edited just now by Sobx.1758

2) It is about the legendaries on some level, because there has to be something unique to keep people involved. I've already in other parts of the thread addressed this. Every MMO under the sun still gives unique rewards for content, even their easier raids, I've even suggested different versions of the rewards in case your panties just can't stand having a casual in animated envoy armor.

This isn't any different than fractal rewards. You can do T1s to get the ascended armors and trinkets It just takes longer.. I don't see why for some reason raids get to be the special snowflake.

 

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

2. I fail to see how getting miniscule fragments of li/lds would be supposed to help people move on to actual regular raiding content. If it doesn't then you're not interested in "Saving raids", you're interested in "easy legendary access", so it misses the point of the question from the title of the thread.

O and here you go assuming "easy mode" some raids are easy mode if you aren't doing the specialized role, especially compared to WoJ/Boneskinner. I don't see why raiders deserve an LD for CA if they're not running swords/shields but strike groups don't for those encounters? This is about elitism on your end, plain and simple.
 

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

3. You mention these would be rewards for "people who can't raid" -The whole point is for the people to learn to raid. And once they learn raid encounters (all or not), they can raid and get rewards for completing the content. Instead of... you know, getting rewards for bruteforcing easymode.

 

4. If your idea of "saving raids" is just... "letting people get legendary armor from easy mode even if they don't learn how to actually raid", then you're just pulling in people that would do exactly that: force their way to rewards in easy modes without bothering to learn, get rewarded and abandon the content. So if your goal is to pull some people short-term into stricly easy mode for leges, then yeah, maybe what you say here would work for that -but that's not saving raids.

Edited just now by Sobx.1758

You don't think giving people better access to the content is going to help drive people to do it more. That's weird. This is basically what other MMOs did. And we've covered this and your response was basically "GW2 doesn't need to do this" I don't see why when they're competing with other MMOs directly. BDO is introducing raids, and new world is coming out this summer. GW2 has plenty to compete with.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

  

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

KP in and of itself is bad because it doesn't expand the community. KP is the reason raids have been struggling so bad, but thanks for confirming my suspicions. And 100 isn't uncommon, I've seen it before.

There was/is a thread about it somewhere. KP is bad on one hand, because it makes it harder for new players to enter. But it's also not bad, because new players randomly joining squads that require knowledge of the encounter would still clearly fail and get kicked wasting time his as well of the rest of the squad. So it's great you're hard set about making it so "black and white", but it's not exactly that easy and obvious.

I didn't say 100 kp is something never seen, it seems you're not responding to what I wrote in my last few posts.

...what suspricions? What's the point of typing anything like that? Am I supposed to guess now? Am I supposed not to guess so you can pretend you know something that you most probably don't?

 

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

Raid participation says otherwise, heck the NA discord for organizing raids for outsiders has fewer successfully organized groups than when I first started. It used to be no matter what time of night there was usually enough interested parties to start a run.

Raid participation says otherwise what? Because the quote you were responding to with that contains a few different "maybies".

 

I literally never had a need to join discord for raiding and yet didn't fail, hmmm... I must be some kind of a gaming genius. Or maybe I just wanted to learn the raids, so I've read a bit before joining (or while waiting for the squad to fill up), boss after boss. Guess we'll never know.

 

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

For me, it's correct because I don't always have the KP required to get into groups. And when I do, I still end up in raid hell because those 3 people.

So what you've just said is: "sometimes I take people that can't raid into my pug groups and fail so it's a proof that pugs can't raid and you need statics"?

This claim remains as false as it was before.

 

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

1) You obviously didn't read my whole post, because I explicitly talk about giving indicators to help groups decide if they can keep going and do the real version. This is basically a help to keep people involved in case they keep getting bad luck with groups, which is basically the issue with pugging raids. And they'll have every incentive to do the encounter when their group did well on the strike.

If you're talking about your first post of the thread, then no, I didn't read that now (but I did before). I've read what you wrote on this page about it though and the point about "partial li/ld" remains.

People don't need "indicators". They learn the raid encounters, get some kp as proof of not failing and then when they feel comfortable enough, they move up. That's it. Player's feeling based on actually succeeding is enough of an "indicator" whther or not they should/could move to regular raiding.

 

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

2_) It is about the legendaries on some level, because there has to be something unique to keep people involved. I've already in other parts of the thread addressed this. Every MMO under the sun still gives unique rewards for content, I've even suggested different versions of the rewards in case your panties just can't stand having a casual in animated envoy armor.

How is this any different than fractal rewards? You can do T1s to get the ascended armors and trinkets. yet for some reason raids get to be the special snowflake.

Yee... I see it's about legendaries for you, that's not exactly nothing new. But it shouldn't be about that and I already wrote multiple times why. It has nothing to do with saving raids. If legendaries are enough of a pull then the players will want to try learning anyways (but maybe they don't know how, because normal raids punish them too hard for mistakes, so it's too stresfull or maybe they don't know how to find a training group or... whatever). If the players are interested in legendary gear, but not enough to bother learning the content, then they won't do anything for saving the raids.

And "great point" with that whole ITS NOT ABOUT LEGE BUT IT'S ABOUT LEGE WOAH YOUR PANTIES CAN'T STAND IT. Grow up and stop pretending it was ever about saving raids for you so you won't need to come up with your silly insults when people call you out for not making sense, thanks.
 

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

O and here you go assuming "easy mode" some raids are easy mode if you aren't doing the specialized role, especially compared to WoJ/Boneskinner. Why do you deserve and LD for CA if you're not running swords/shields but strike groups don't for those encounters? This is about elitism on your end, plain and simple.

What do you mean "I'm assuming easy mode"? What do you think we were talking about for the past few posts (more like "pages")? "assuming easy mode"? What?

 

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

You don't think giving people better access to the content is going to help drive people to do it more. That's weird. This is basically what other MMOs did.

Easy mode isn't "better access" now for some reason? What are you talking about? Seriously, maybe consider taking a nap or something.

[Firebeard.1746]

6 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Raid participation says otherwise what? Because the quote you were responding to with that contains a few different "maybies".

 

I literally never had a need to join discord for raiding and yet didn't fail, hmmm... I must be some kind of a gaming genius. Or maybe I just wanted to learn the raids, so I've read a bit before joining (or while waiting for the squad to fill up), boss after boss. Guess we'll never know.

You are in groups that ask for KP. you've admitted this, and there have been groups I've offered to join where I'd studied before but it wasn't enough. But if it was really that easy, the game mode wouldn't be struggling. Anet I guess would still have the best numbers for this.

 
 

Quote

So what you've just said is: "sometimes I take people that can't raid into my pug groups and fail so it's a proof that pugs can't raid and you need statics"?

This claim remains as false as it was before.

Except I'm joining other groups like you. You're basically proving I need to have a static where I know people have the experience. Basically I don't want to take people for granted. If I could make a static, I have some guarantee that person is learning something over time and I can benefit from it. Otherwise, I have to be a jerk and do KP only groups like you.

 

Quote

If you're talking about your first post of the thread, then no, I didn't read that now (but I did before). I've read what you wrote on this page about it though and the point about "partial li/ld" remains.

People don't need "indicators". They learn the raid encounters, get some kp as proof of not failing and then when they feel comfortable enough, they move up. That's it. Player's feeling based on actually succeeding is enough of an "indicator" whther or not they should/could move to regular raiding.

 

There is no point to the training mode you suggested if it's the same as the original (which is not what I thought you meant). If it's not, then there needs to be something telling people whether or not they did well enough to survive mechanics in the real thing if it's a soft training run.

I've already stated that I'm fine with trying this approach, it's just not going to work. And KP will become worthless. People will want people hardened in the raid version. Or maybe it will and KP runs get to take the same hits other ones do ; P
 

Quote

Yee... I see it's about legendaries for you, that's not exactly nothing new. But it shouldn't be about that and I already wrote multiple times why. It has nothing to do with saving raids. If legendaries are enough of a pull then the players will want to try learning anyways (but maybe they don't know how, because normal raids punish them too hard for mistakes, so it's too stresfull or maybe they don't know how to find a training group or... whatever). If the players are interested in legendary gear, but not enough to bother learning the content, then they won't do anything for saving the raids.

And "great point" with that whole ITS NOT ABOUT LEGE BUT IT'S ABOUT LEGE WOAH YOUR PANTIES CAN'T STAND IT. Grow up and stop pretending it was ever about saving raids for you so you won't need to come up with your silly insults when people call you out for not making sense, thanks.

Totally wrong. There's no need in continuing this conversation. I'm already close to halfway to conflux in terms of tickets and I have great WvW guild. I can get slumbering conflux and equip both at the same time if I want. Heck I'm getting better at organizing ad-hoc groups when I'm on on my own now too. With the release of the new neck, I can use those shards on armor instead. I don't need legendaries from raids if that's all I was going for. I would like to do some type of more difficult 10-man content that requires working with other people, but don't want to give up working on legendaries. I find it absolutely telling that you're happy with me spending more time in uber casual content than in a more PuG friendly version of content you enjoy that still requires group coordination on some level in order to progress/advance my account. I find that absolutely ridiculous actually which is why I feel done here. There's nothing logical about your position on legendaries from strike-like versions of raids,it shows contempt for the community at large and for the content you love so much, that you wouldn't want to make it worth others' time to do it under the conditions they can do it, even if it's harder than other content that can award legendaries. The irony being I know some raiders that were asking for the neck coming from IB Saga because they couldn't handle sPVP XD (and you actually have to win for it, by the way, which makes them that much more shy). I already have the grindy mats (shards, tickets + Emblem), just needed the cash, so I have more tolerance than them.

 

Quote

Easy mode isn't "better access" now for some reason? What are you talking about? Seriously, maybe consider taking a nap or something.

I don't know how many times I have to say Puggable =/= easy mode on this thread. But that's what you want, an easy mode that means nothing to you and your friends and to the people doing it. (or actually I think you really don't want one at all).
 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 But that's what you want, an easy mode that means nothing to you and your friends and to the people doing it. (or actually I think you really don't want one at all).

You're right, he doesn't. He admitted this early in this thread.

[Gudradain.3892]

Sadly, I don't know why the raiding community is its own worse enemy.

We know that raids are not very popular with the GW2 population in general. It's not up to debate, it's a fact. And, we know that if a game mode is not popular it will not receive a lot of new content from ArenaNet.

So, here we are, after 22 pages, and most posts are not even trying to be constructive and find a solution to make this game mode that we all love more popular but are rather trying to ignore or dismiss the problem.

The first step to fix a problem is to acknowledge the problem.

[Astralporing.1957]

8 hours ago, Gudradain.3892 said:

Sadly, I don't know why the raiding community is its own worse enemy.

We know that raids are not very popular with the GW2 population in general. It's not up to debate, it's a fact. And, we know that if a game mode is not popular it will not receive a lot of new content from ArenaNet.

So, here we are, after 22 pages, and most posts are not even trying to be constructive and find a solution to make this game mode that we all love more popular but are rather trying to ignore or dismiss the problem.

The first step to fix a problem is to acknowledge the problem.

Well, what can we do if the most prolific poster in this thread is someone that admitted would rather see raids dead than changed in any way that might actually make them more popular. And when many raiders still think that it's not a problem with the content, but with the players, and so the players are the only thing that needs to be "fixed" (as if it would ever work).

[maddoctor.2738]

9 hours ago, Gudradain.3892 said:

So, here we are, after 22 pages, and most posts are not even trying to be constructive and find a solution to make this game mode that we all love more popular but are rather trying to ignore or dismiss the problem.

 

I don't see a solution presented in your post either, so complaining about others not posting constructive solutions, while not posting any solution, or join in the discussion of the solutions already presented in the thread, yourself, is nothing other than hypocritical. You can at least try to see the solutions presented in these 22 pages, which you claim have no solutions presented.

[mindcircus.1506]

12 hours ago, Gudradain.3892 said:

Sadly, I don't know why the raiding community is its own worse enemy.

Yeah I am going to call Shenanigans on this.

Anyone who pops into Raid Academy Discord will tell you how easy it is to get involved in a training group and the fact they are literally organizing all the time. They can tell you about the fact that they have a regular bunch of volunteers ready to jump in on discord  and lead a any group through just about any encounter at a moment's notice, as long as 9 people can be gathered.

We can look at Snowcrows which offers a resource that anyone can access, shares all the info that works and even shows a player which buttons to press and which order. A website run out of pocket by a small group of people for no other reason but to share what they consider to be the best tactics available.

We can look at Metabattle, which offers a variety of builds to support people looking to raid and is again funded out of pocket.

Go to Youtube and search any encounter and see just how many people have taken the time to make guides on how the encounters work.

 

All of the above represent a significant investment of time and money by people dedicated to the game and the content, doing what they can to help onboard people into the content and achieve the best results.

 

And yet we have a significant number of people telling flat out lies about what raiding is like, disparaging the people who enjoy the encounters and purposefully sowing fear, prejudice and mistrust.
They flatly call community resources like Snowcrows and Metabattle "bad for the game", and they paint all raid groups as some kind of pressure-cooker filled with sociopaths and speed-freaks.
We have a signifcant number of people on these forums that have never set foot into a raid but will pen 14 paragraph essays about how bad they are and how bad the community enjoying them is.

The raid community's "worse enemy" is people making snap judgements and talking in worn out memes about content they are afraid will pop the bubble of their power fantasy.

Always has been.

Edited May 5, 2021 by mindcircus.1506

[yann.1946]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, what can we do if the most prolific poster in this thread is someone that admitted would rather see raids dead than changed in any way that might actually make them more popular.

 

TBH the post about raid being rather dead then changed was not representative necessarily of the total raid community. And in some sense makes sense. (For example if someone makes a vegan restaurant, the restaurant is doing badly and someone suggest selling hamburgers you would expect the same reaction)

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And when many raiders still think that it's not a problem with the content, but with the players, and so the players are the only thing that needs to be "fixed" (as if it would ever work).

 

This is an extremely deceptive way to look at all the discussion that has been going on, you've been long enough on the fora to know that this is not completely true.

 

Most of the time when people talk about the player problem they talk about

 

-How the well has always been poisoned in regards to raids. (posts about how people where persuaded of trying raids because of prejudice or others peoples opinion and then later realizing they enjoy the content.)

-How the barriers of entry are not actually steep when people claim they have no way to start raiding.

-And how it is not bad if someone cant do some piece of content.