Why is Discipline so common in builds?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

This has become quite the discussion.

Discipline isn't what is mandatory, Fast Hands is. The shorter weapon swap should have been built into warrior like dual attacks and initiative were for Thief. I can guarantee that if Fast Hands was made baseline that there would be more build diversity. Many warriors would not feel that they HAVE to run Discipline if FH were baseline.

Now do I run Discipline every time I play? No. Sometimes it is worth taking another traitline. Like Str/Tact/Berz or Str/Tact/SpB. But then I've been running Rifle alot lately and it can pew pew the entire 10s I'm stuck in it.

[Obtena.7952]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:This has become quite the discussion.

Discipline isn't what is mandatory, Fast Hands is. The shorter weapon swap should have been built into warrior like dual attacks and initiative were for Thief. I can guarantee that if Fast Hands was made baseline that there would be more build diversity. Many warriors would not feel that they HAVE to run Discipline if FH were baseline.Now do I run Discipline every time I play? No. Sometimes it is worth taking another traitline. Like Str/Tact/Berz or Str/Tact/SpB. But then I've been running Rifle alot lately and it can pew pew the entire 10s I'm stuck in it.I'm not sure you can't guarantee that at all. If anything, if you give FH as baseline, people will be MORE likely to take Discipline because of all the effects that Discipline gives when you swap weapons. I'm YET to see a reason FH is mandatory because it's not. It's extremely strong with all the procing swap effects ... but it's not mandatory, that's for sure.

Let's put it this way, what mandatory thing couldn't be done if you didn't swap every 5 seconds? Why is a 5 second weapon swap a mandatory thing on EVERY warrior and not some other class? Is there something about how warrior's weapons are designed? I don't see it.

[Sobx.1758]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or

as true as for most other classes

).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.You are asking why 5 second swap is good

What are you even talking about? I never asked "why 5 second swap is good", quite the opposite -I clearly said that it would be good on any other class using incombat weapon swap as well. This alone shows you didn't understand what I wrote. You need to re-read the initial response and answer to each quote separately and accurately instead of just making another "blob of text" with overal broad claims thrown around.

it is the only choice there is no alternative traitline that lets you use your skills

Oh, I am using the skills just fine without disci, must be magic.But lets not get carried away again, the thing to focus on here is: You need to re-read the initial response and answer to each quote separately and accurately instead of just making another "blob of text" with overal broad claims thrown around.

[Vancho.8750]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or

as true as for most other classes

).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.You are asking why 5 second swap is good

I never asked "why 5 second swap is good", quite the opposite -I clearly said that it would be good on any other class using incombat weapon swap as well. This alone shows you didn't understand what I wrote. You need to re-read the initial response and answer to each quuote separately and accurately instead of just making another "blob of text" with overal brad claims thrown around.

And if you read the text you will see that warrior does not have added benefit to auto attacking like the rest of the classes and the skill combos on warrior on most weapons end in about 5 seconds , auto attacks are not anything special on warrior and most of them are DPS loss or in PVP threat loss. There is no added bonus damage for hitting more like guardian or getting into bonus set of abilities like necro.

[Sobx.1758]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or

as true as for most other classes

).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.You are asking why 5 second swap is good

I never asked "why 5 second swap is good", quite the opposite -I clearly said that it would be good on any other class using incombat weapon swap as well. This alone shows you didn't understand what I wrote. You need to re-read the initial response and answer to each quuote separately and accurately instead of just making another "blob of text" with overal brad claims thrown around.

And if you read the text you will see that warrior does not have added benefit to auto attacking like the rest of the classes

That's just false.

Now go re-read the initial response and respond accurately to each point, expanding on some of those vague overal claims (like "warrior's weaponsets are balanced around 5 second swap" for example, but there were more).Again, if at any point of this discussion you thought I was asking "why 5 second swap is good" (and you clearly thought so even in your last post), then you ACTUALLY didn't understand what I wrote in my posts.

and the skill combos on warrior on most weapons end in about 5 seconds

That's as true as it is for most other weapons of most other classes.

auto attacks are not anything special on warrior and most of them are DPS loss or in PVP threat loss.

Autoattacks on any class/weapons aren't "anything special". This is not any different for warrior when compared to most of the other classes.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or

as true as for most other classes

).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.You are asking why 5 second swap is good

I never asked "why 5 second swap is good", quite the opposite -I clearly said that it would be good on any other class using incombat weapon swap as well. This alone shows you didn't understand what I wrote. You need to re-read the initial response and answer to each quuote separately and accurately instead of just making another "blob of text" with overal brad claims thrown around.

And if you read the text you will see that warrior does not have added benefit to auto attacking like the rest of the classes and the skill combos on warrior on most weapons end in about 5 seconds , auto attacks are not anything special on warrior and most of them are DPS loss or in PVP threat loss. There is no added bonus damage for hitting more like guardian or getting into bonus set of abilities like necro.

What ARE you talking about? What auto attack benefit on non-warrior classes are you referring to? Have you ACTUALLY assessed the CD's of warrior weapons and compared them to the CD's of other classes? What is a 'skill combo' and how do they 'end' in 5 seconds? Do other classes not have these 'skill combos' that end in 5 seconds? What 'combo' can you not execute with the standard swap CD that you CAN execute with a 5 second swap CD? What 'added bonus damage for hitting more' do Guardians have that Warriors don't? What does ANY of this have to do with FH being baseline? Honestly, It seems like you are making up stuff at random that isn't related to FH at all.

Even if warrior weapon CD were lower than other classes, that most CERTAINLY does not warrant a further baseline weapon swapping advantage over other classes as well. Let's be clear here ... we aren't talking about if Warrior should have a FH as baseline, we are talking about if FH baseline is necessary given that we ALREADY have access to it as a trait.

The bottomline here is that there is NOTHING unique about how warriors weapons are designed vs. non-warrior classes that warrant an overall buff with some random trait. I mean, even if we were asked what we want baseline on Warrior from Anet, FH would be a rather stupid choice because it's not beneficial to every warrior build ... UNLESS it's using Discipline. That in itself is a reason to NOT to make it baseline.

[Vancho.8750]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or

as true as for most other classes

).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.You are asking why 5 second swap is good

I never asked "why 5 second swap is good", quite the opposite -I clearly said that it would be good on any other class using incombat weapon swap as well. This alone shows you didn't understand what I wrote. You need to re-read the initial response and answer to each quuote separately and accurately instead of just making another "blob of text" with overal brad claims thrown around.

And if you read the text you will see that warrior does not have added benefit to auto attacking like the rest of the classes and the skill combos on warrior on most weapons end in about 5 seconds , auto attacks are not anything special on warrior and most of them are DPS loss or in PVP threat loss. There is no added bonus damage for hitting more like guardian or getting into bonus set of abilities like necro.

What

ARE

you talking about? What auto attack benefit on non-warrior classes are you referring to? Have you ACTUALLY assessed the CD's of warrior weapons and compared them to the CD's of other classes? What is a 'skill combo' and how do they 'end' in 5 seconds? Do other classes not have these 'skill combos' that end in 5 seconds? What 'added bonus damage for hitting more' do Guardians have that Warriors don't? What does ANY of this have to do with FH being baseline? Honestly, It seems like you are making up stuff at random that isn't related to FH at all.

Even if warrior weapon CD were lower than other classes, that most CERTAINLY does not warrant a further baseline weapon swapping advantage over other classes as well. Let's be clear here ... we aren't talking about if Warrior should have a FH as baseline, we are talking about if FH baseline is necessary given that we ALREADY have access to it as a trait.

The bottomline here is that there is NOTHING unique about how warriors weapons are designed vs. non-warrior classes that warrant an overall buff with some random trait. I mean, even if we were asked what we want baseline on Warrior from Anet, FH would be a rather stupid choice because it's not beneficial to every warrior build ... UNLESS it's using Discipline. That in itself is a reason to NOT to make it baseline.

Like @Lan Deathrider.5910 said more Options on how to play the game, you know like most of the other classes. Having less skills then other classes puts warrior at disadvantage but having short swap compensates that. The argument is that all of the skills on warrior are balanced around the idea that it will take discipline on every build possible, it has created a bottleneck. To open up the slot of discipline you have to baseline 5s swap or design multiple skills to function on par with everything else in the game without that. Options options options, variety is the spice of life, but warrior works the same on core and elites .

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Dao Jones.6720" said:I’ve got a fairly fresh 80 Warrior that I plan to run through all of the LW story content (which I’ve never actually played before), and as I’m looking to refine my build for solo/open world PvE I keep seeing Discipline crop up in every build, and I’m not sure I understand why.

Is weapon switching really just super common for everyone? I run Axe/Axe as my primary weapon set, and it doesn’t feel like I’m so short of things to do off cool down that a weapon swap would be super useful. Additionally, I like to keep a ranged weapon on swap for those few scenarios where I want to keep my distance (also out of habit from doing a lot of WvW roaming on my Ranger). Are the on swap synergies in the Discipline trait line plus swap runes in weapons really better than just leaning in on your primary weapon? Because if so, then that’s a PEBKAC issue for me, and I should get used to swapping.

nobody care about swap weapons, ignore it.Discipline just cumulate "passives" / free damage boost, free moviment boost.is also a gw2 general rule, just less effort gameplay(cumulating passives) traitlines are kings on builds.

but if u are in wvw/pvp scene the swap weapon triggers stuff is very useful, even a big advantage.

A pvp player have very different gameplay pace, what matters to pvper is trigger right stuff at right time, also have all skills on cooldown can be a death setence to pvp player, so to warrior swap weapons more faster(and fresh skills) is a advantage trademark. Skills cooldowns are a very important stuff to guys into pvp scene.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or

as true as for most other classes

).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.You are asking why 5 second swap is good

I never asked "why 5 second swap is good", quite the opposite -I clearly said that it would be good on any other class using incombat weapon swap as well. This alone shows you didn't understand what I wrote. You need to re-read the initial response and answer to each quuote separately and accurately instead of just making another "blob of text" with overal brad claims thrown around.

And if you read the text you will see that warrior does not have added benefit to auto attacking like the rest of the classes and the skill combos on warrior on most weapons end in about 5 seconds , auto attacks are not anything special on warrior and most of them are DPS loss or in PVP threat loss. There is no added bonus damage for hitting more like guardian or getting into bonus set of abilities like necro.

What

ARE

you talking about? What auto attack benefit on non-warrior classes are you referring to? Have you ACTUALLY assessed the CD's of warrior weapons and compared them to the CD's of other classes? What is a 'skill combo' and how do they 'end' in 5 seconds? Do other classes not have these 'skill combos' that end in 5 seconds? What 'added bonus damage for hitting more' do Guardians have that Warriors don't? What does ANY of this have to do with FH being baseline? Honestly, It seems like you are making up stuff at random that isn't related to FH at all.

Even if warrior weapon CD were lower than other classes, that most CERTAINLY does not warrant a further baseline weapon swapping advantage over other classes as well. Let's be clear here ... we aren't talking about if Warrior should have a FH as baseline, we are talking about if FH baseline is necessary given that we ALREADY have access to it as a trait.

The bottomline here is that there is NOTHING unique about how warriors weapons are designed vs. non-warrior classes that warrant an overall buff with some random trait. I mean, even if we were asked what we want baseline on Warrior from Anet, FH would be a rather stupid choice because it's not beneficial to every warrior build ... UNLESS it's using Discipline. That in itself is a reason to NOT to make it baseline.

Like @Lan Deathrider.5910 said more Options on how to play the game, you know like most of the other classes. Having less skills then other classes puts warrior at disadvantage but having short swap compensates that. The argument is that all of the skills on warrior are balanced around the idea that it will take discipline on every build possible, it has created a bottleneck. To open up the slot of discipline you have to baseline 5s swap or design multiple skills to function on par with everything else in the game without that. Options options options, variety is the spice of life, but warrior works the same on core and elites .

It's true that having less skills than other classes appears to put warriors at a disadvantage, but that isn't a reason to put FH as baseline. FH really doesn't address that problem because it's not like I open up my world of warrior skills with a reduced swap CD. Maybe you think FH being baseline would make people less likely to use Discipline? Why would anyone think that? Again, let's not sit here and pretend that FH is a mandatory trait that every warrior needs to make up for some disadvantage the class has intrinsically.

All that to say ... is that you are trying to solve the problem of 'balancing low access to skills' with 'FH as baseline vs. a trait' ... then it's not really a solution since you get the 5 second weapon swap either way. So again ... what problem are we solving here is FH as baseline vs. a trait? It's definitely not 'more options'.

The truth is that the only 'option' your opening up here is getting a new, unknown trait that would replace FH and you have no idea how that trait would impact warrior.

[Sobx.1758]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or

as true as for most other classes

).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.You are asking why 5 second swap is good

I never asked "why 5 second swap is good", quite the opposite -I clearly said that it would be good on any other class using incombat weapon swap as well. This alone shows you didn't understand what I wrote. You need to re-read the initial response and answer to each quuote separately and accurately instead of just making another "blob of text" with overal brad claims thrown around.

And if you read the text you will see that warrior does not have added benefit to auto attacking like the rest of the classes and the skill combos on warrior on most weapons end in about 5 seconds , auto attacks are not anything special on warrior and most of them are DPS loss or in PVP threat loss. There is no added bonus damage for hitting more like guardian or getting into bonus set of abilities like necro.

What

ARE

you talking about? What auto attack benefit on non-warrior classes are you referring to? Have you ACTUALLY assessed the CD's of warrior weapons and compared them to the CD's of other classes? What is a 'skill combo' and how do they 'end' in 5 seconds? Do other classes not have these 'skill combos' that end in 5 seconds? What 'added bonus damage for hitting more' do Guardians have that Warriors don't? What does ANY of this have to do with FH being baseline? Honestly, It seems like you are making up stuff at random that isn't related to FH at all.

Even if warrior weapon CD were lower than other classes, that most CERTAINLY does not warrant a further baseline weapon swapping advantage over other classes as well. Let's be clear here ... we aren't talking about if Warrior should have a FH as baseline, we are talking about if FH baseline is necessary given that we ALREADY have access to it as a trait.

The bottomline here is that there is NOTHING unique about how warriors weapons are designed vs. non-warrior classes that warrant an overall buff with some random trait. I mean, even if we were asked what we want baseline on Warrior from Anet, FH would be a rather stupid choice because it's not beneficial to every warrior build ... UNLESS it's using Discipline. That in itself is a reason to NOT to make it baseline.

Like @Lan Deathrider.5910 said more Options on how to play the game, you know like most of the other classes. Having less skills then other classes puts warrior at disadvantage but having short swap compensates that.

I see this repeated all over the place, but this completely ignores the fact that warrior's Fkey skills (because that's what you're talking about right?) are split between weapon sets AND have significantly lower cooldown than the other profession's Fkey skills. This results in having lower "up front" potential related to those skills (as in casting 3 skills in quick succession one-after-another and then waiting out the cds), but it more-or-less evens out as times go on, which is also in line with warrior's supposed extended-combat playstyle (as well as the free hp stats it has to make it harder to burst down).It's super convenient to just "count the available button presses" out of context and end on that, but I don't think that's how it works.

The argument is that all of the skills on warrior are balanced around the idea that it will take discipline on every build possible, it has created a bottleneck.

How exactly are they "balanced around it"?

To open up the slot of discipline you have to baseline 5s swap or design multiple skills to function on par with everything else in the game without that.

Those skills ARE "designed on par with everything else in the game without that". If not then explain exactly how. Even the burst skills are on their own ICD, so just saying "baseline FH because burst" doesn't really work as well.

Options options options, variety is the spice of life, but warrior works the same on core and elites .

Not "options options options", more like "random buffs under the cover of a false claim about warrior somehow being designed around 5 sec weapon swap outside of discipline spec". The only meaningful thing "designed around 5 second weapon swap" for warrior is disci spec itself. Other than that it's pretty much the same as for other classes.

[Vancho.8750]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or

as true as for most other classes

).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.You are asking why 5 second swap is good

I never asked "why 5 second swap is good", quite the opposite -I clearly said that it would be good on any other class using incombat weapon swap as well. This alone shows you didn't understand what I wrote. You need to re-read the initial response and answer to each quuote separately and accurately instead of just making another "blob of text" with overal brad claims thrown around.

And if you read the text you will see that warrior does not have added benefit to auto attacking like the rest of the classes and the skill combos on warrior on most weapons end in about 5 seconds , auto attacks are not anything special on warrior and most of them are DPS loss or in PVP threat loss. There is no added bonus damage for hitting more like guardian or getting into bonus set of abilities like necro.

What

ARE

you talking about? What auto attack benefit on non-warrior classes are you referring to? Have you ACTUALLY assessed the CD's of warrior weapons and compared them to the CD's of other classes? What is a 'skill combo' and how do they 'end' in 5 seconds? Do other classes not have these 'skill combos' that end in 5 seconds? What 'added bonus damage for hitting more' do Guardians have that Warriors don't? What does ANY of this have to do with FH being baseline? Honestly, It seems like you are making up stuff at random that isn't related to FH at all.

Even if warrior weapon CD were lower than other classes, that most CERTAINLY does not warrant a further baseline weapon swapping advantage over other classes as well. Let's be clear here ... we aren't talking about if Warrior should have a FH as baseline, we are talking about if FH baseline is necessary given that we ALREADY have access to it as a trait.

The bottomline here is that there is NOTHING unique about how warriors weapons are designed vs. non-warrior classes that warrant an overall buff with some random trait. I mean, even if we were asked what we want baseline on Warrior from Anet, FH would be a rather stupid choice because it's not beneficial to every warrior build ... UNLESS it's using Discipline. That in itself is a reason to NOT to make it baseline.

Like @Lan Deathrider.5910 said more Options on how to play the game, you know like most of the other classes. Having less skills then other classes puts warrior at disadvantage but having short swap compensates that. The argument is that all of the skills on warrior are balanced around the idea that it will take discipline on every build possible, it has created a bottleneck. To open up the slot of discipline you have to baseline 5s swap or design multiple skills to function on par with everything else in the game without that. Options options options, variety is the spice of life, but warrior works the same on core and elites .

It's true that having less skills than other classes appears to put warriors at a disadvantage, but that isn't a reason to put FH as baseline. FH really doesn't address that problem because it's not like I open up my world of warrior skills with a reduced swap CD. What makes you conclude FH being baseline would make people less likely to use Discipline? Again, let's not sit here and pretend that FH is a mandatory trait because of all the disadvantage warrior has ... there are more than one way to address that.

All that to say ... is that you are trying to solve the problem of 'balancing low access to skills' with 'FH as baseline vs. a trait' ... that's a pretty bad solution since that 5 sec swap CD only affects a small number of rather insignificant weapon skills.

The truth is that the only 'option' your opening up is getting a new, unknown trait and you have no idea if that trait is going to address the 'low skills access' warrior has.Arenannet has tried to address discipline as the default go to traitline multiple times, they added adrenaline generator on the hammer trait or the tactics cd reduction Martial Cadence. The idea is to able to camp on one weapon set . They managed to create a set that would work without Discipline at least for PVE one Berserker with Axe Axe but the trait is in Discipline. They could pull something like that with sword and arms for a condi variation, but does it truly change much.Maybe a synergy between two traitline options that gives you enough presence. Lets say you pick up hammer and mace/shield on a build with Strength Defense + Elite so you pick up both hammer and mace traits and they function better than Discipline under these specific rules.

Another option is for the next elite to have an extra weapon set bundle with less attention to burst skill (which would be hard to pull of since all the traitlines on core have multiple on burst triggers), like Necro or Holo. And maybe it works with its utility skills like lets say DH or scrapper.The problem with these are too many ifs and buts, and the fact that arenanet just forgets to fix up problems after it makes a rework.For now though Warrior is defined by Discipline, you face tank do burst skills and swap weapons.

[Obtena.7952]

I won't speculate why Anet does things or what leads them to the solutions they have. What I do know is that nothing about how warrior is designed, including it's weapon skills, should result in people concluding FH should be baseline. Things that are baseline are made to the benefit (or detriment if a nerf is needed) of EVERY build for that class. If you are telling me FH baseline addresses 'low skill access deficiency' as a general warrior issue, I'm going to tell you it doesn't because not every build benefits from a 5 second Weapon Swap. I would even go as far as saying almost NO build benefits from a 5 second weapon swap because the interesting skills you want to apply from weapons tend to have CD's LARGER than 5 seconds.

Maybe people think we open up a world of options if you can press 1 on different weapons more often. I think those people have convinced themselves of something that sounds good but isn't.

Honestly, I don't think the 5 sec swap is that good. It's the combination of 'on-swap' effects with it that make Discipline so good, as well as the Axe trait. If anything, I think if there is a case here to spread some of that love around to other traits, not start packing in more or even passing it around as baseline.

[felix.2386]

low skill access deficiency is fine if you have teleportlike thief and rev actually have pretty low SAD for their skills being linked to limited energybut why they are fine, you can say that thief has shortbow so they can range or goes for stealth and decapbut what about power rev with double meleebecause they have teleport that allows them to kit and have skill combo comes up and goes back to fight immediatelybut if a warrior starts running, you will take forever to go back and might not even catch the enemy.

warrior needs to constantly stay close to the enemy which is why they need to continuosly be using skill more then others, anet already gave warrior very low CD, but it's barely enough for warrior's playstyle without fast hands.