Quickness Support-Scrapper is a Novel Idea ... but a Fundamentally Flawed Approach

[Cko.8749]

There has been a lot of discussion about the new Quickness changes for Heal Scrapper, but one thing I've not seen brought up very often is, per topic: Granting Quickness from Superspeed is an inherently flawed approach. Apologies in advance, this is a bit of long post.

 

Now don't get me wrong: I love supports, and Scrapper is pretty much my main across the board. I have wanted to have a meaningful cleansing, buffing or defensive, healing Scrapper since the spec came out, but outside of WvW there wasn't much way of making it good. So seeing Scrapper being edged a bit more into that role is exciting, and I'd like to see more of this because I believe this is a positive direction for the class, and with the increase in similar design considerations elsewhere, better for the game overall, but the adjusted the Scrapper traits causes a new problem of negatively-affected priorities and this significantly negates a lot of purpose in the spec as a support.

 

As it currently is, a Scrapper needs to use their near-entire set of Gyros on cooldown and look to their self-heals in order to maintain some level of Superspeed (and thus Quickness) uptime, and have to spec heavily into boon duration to get the most out of it. Simply increasing Quickness duration on this effect is just a band-aid, since while it may free up one skill slot, it doesn't adjust the fundamental problem: We are forced into using some key utility skills in order to maintain offensive upkeep, which will inevitably always be a higher priority. It's also an ineffective approach, because in terms of overall balance, Scrappers will be far less desired than classes which can do these things without losing their other utility or bring something more.

 

Instead of prioritizing our big defensive or utility skills, when we need to get the most use out of them, they're used nearly on-cooldown in a flat rotation just to focus on that uptime %. Therefore, if they are helpful like they're meant to be, it's coincidental. This is the core issue : dropping priority on impactful specific skills in exchange for prioritizing a general and sporadic offensive uptime is inherently a flawed design choice. This goes against the intention, purpose, and effectiveness of these defensive or utility skills. Additionally, Superspeed itself is largely irrelevant and now primarily serves as the vessel through which Quickness is granted rather than impacting the game itself. The resultant flow of skills in combat is not rewarding or engaging to play, and degrades the experience by relegating all meaningful effects into a singular, passive, secondary aspect of gameplay.

 

The only way to address that directly with the current setup is to overtune the buff (in PvE) : Increasing the Quickness effect by upwards of 1-2s in order to allow Heal Scrappers to have their Elixir Gun back, for instance, or even 3s to match most of the Superspeed generation timings and therefore allow non-Concentration builds to maintain high/constant uptime. But the results here are now more problematic: Any duration buff only further cements the use of the Gyros (and possibly your self-heal) as Quickness-generators rather than their existing utility, and high amounts of duration increase will create a completely out-of-control balancing scenario (similar to the current situation with Mirage, the previous issues with Chronomancer, etc., which can maintain their boons and output incredibly high damage without building much into it, largely because of bloated numbers).

 

To address this, we should look at the approach itself and consider it in a different manner, with the underlying intention still being the same : Support Scrapper is trying to be made into something more meta-friendly and viable, with a focus on Quickness generation (as a means of fulfilling one part of the expectations of the support role).

 

Since this is a Scrapper-specific issue, the solution should be found in something that only Scrappers can access, such as Hammer skills, Gyros, or the Scrapper traits, rather than further-inflating the Alchemy line. And preferably without any "When you grant X, also automatically grant Y" type effects because that is just terribly un-engaging. Here are some of my thoughts :

 

→ The biggest offenders of this flawed approach are Gyroscopic Acceleration, Speed of Synergy, and Kinetic Accelerators. Probably pretty obvious here: Gyroscopic Acceleration shunts you into needing to spam your Gyros for this effect over their own, Speed of Synergy does the same but for your healing skill as well, and they become spam-necessary because of Kinetic Accelerators. Replacing the first two with triggered effects that grant Superspeed or Quickness which can occur when fulfilling your role as a support, utilizing control effects, or even for party damage reduction means, using party-oriented skills or tool-belt skills, etc., would be more satisfying to play and less problematic for the overall design. In turn, replacing Kinetic Accelerators with something to cap off or extend the previous support-nature functionality would be necessary. Admittedly, adjusting this would mean two or three fairly-significant trait changes so it's asking a lot.

 

→ Providing party-wide Quickness on Hammer would be a massive boost to more offensively-oriented Scrappers, which in itself might be an interesting concept but goes against the idea of this being support-specific and I think without having to invest in skills or passives to get the effect it would be just too strong (there's already far too much power creep via boon generation in many offensive kits as it is). It also doesn't have a good placement and either makes Hammer lose synergies or become more overloaded than some skills already are.

 

→ So as to avoid prioritizing secondary Gyro boon generation effects over their primary purpose, changing a Gyro (other than Bulwark, since that's fairly key to the style of kinda-defensive-oriented Scrapper support) to specifically provide a sizeable chunk of Quickness could be an option. This creates a new problem in that each one serves a purpose already, and one at least would need to be completely reworked to accommodate. One possibility could be Purge Gyro, which might make for a good candidate for rework here, since it largely already fits into the "support" option, but is generally outclassed for its primary role as condi cleanser — Elixir Gun does that as well, while also having extra effects, an actually-useful tool-belt skill, and works well in combination with any number of support-oriented traits. Sneak Gyro could finally have purpose in PvE but it's already unnecessarily potent in PvP and WvW scenarios and any change here would affect that more drastically than it should be or cause an entire identity distinction between game modes.

 

→ Superspeed as the specific "class main benefit" is pretty poor, particularly in terms of PvE. To my understanding — and correct me if I'm mistaken here — there are so few scenarios in which having that actually helps anything that it's almost never considered when it comes to clearing or optimizing, other than for some QoL for the most part. Subsequently, outright removing this would have fairly low, if any, repercussions on an Engineer's impact on the game (some PvP reasons not-withstanding), so it should probably be re-examined entirely. In the short term, simply replacing Superspeed with Quickness and possibly Swiftness in effect would be more immediately beneficial, for instance.

 

This writeup has primarily focused on Quickness, but even adjusting that still might not be enough to make Support Scrapper desirable, as we simply do not have enough of the key offensive or support benefits, and it takes too much to get what we have compared to others. Superspeed does not make up for a lack of Spirits, and some incoming damage shifting with barrier generation isn't as defensively impactful as Aegis-spam (as gameplay-degenerate as that boon can be). Changes in this direction could be possible to make, such as by adjusting the Alchemy line to be more party-oriented. For some examples: change Transmute to make all self-Elixirs affect 5 or 10 characters with reduced durations (and possibly some effects) on allies, and/or change Hidden Flask to something that instead grants Fury when healing self or ally to or above 90% HP or Aegis if they're below 50% HP (with an internal cooldown per character), and/or moving HGH to Master tier with a nerf to Might duration or reduced stacks, etc. Could even push Scrapper more into a "take the hits for others from the front" role by expanding their defensive identity in this direction. But details on these are outside of the scope of the main point here — I just wanted to bring it up because suggestions on making the Quickness-Superspeed adjustments aren't going to be quite enough, most likely, and there are other areas that can be touched upon to make up for that ... as a separate concept.

 

I know there's been a lot of talk already on this topic, but maybe this post can help shift some of the discussions toward theorizing potential other solutions or looking at the issue from a slightly different angle. For the short term, adding 1s or, ehh, even up to 2s, would be significant, but only in the sense of "I can now meet the minimum qualities for this intended change", which would be useful, but should still be re-examined since it doesn't address the core issue.

[Infusion.7149]

Quickness scrapper should have never happened: it breaks 2 modes at once and holo was decent DPS.

If they were going to reduce boon thief to 5 targets they should have let thief have output quickness on Bountiful theft in PvE : thrill of the crime outputs might+ fury so it would have been viable and made quickness 0.25s or negligible in competitive. (It would automatically be kept in check unlike condi RR renegades because trickery typically isn't run on DPS daredevil.)
Nerfing it to 5 targets without making it usable in any fashion outside a few select raids means it is effectively removed.

There's been increasing amounts of one skill doing multiple different things which has led to massive powercreep.

P.S. Elixir gun doesn't self clear

Edited May 13, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Noah Salazar.5430]

it wuld be ok if we Replace Expert Examinator for Schocking Speed  that grants 2s Quickness on blast finisher in any field

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Speed

 

As Scrapper got alot blast finishers, and also his all about moving fields

 

If you look on HFB

 

He got 3 traits to quickness

 

First is for aegis+stab, secound on using heal, and 3 on f1-f3 

 

About Scrapper

 

Now First trait Scrapper need take is superspeed on gyros

Secound trait missing

Last trait 2s Quickness on Superspeed

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Cko.8749]

  

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Quickness scrapper should have never happened: it breaks 2 modes at once and holo was decent DPS.
...
P.S. Elixir gun doesn't self clear

 

Scrapper providing Quickness in a support-oriented role is a fine enough idea, but it should be done in a way that doesn't devalue their other utility, mix up priorities on burst healing, and also in a manner that doesn't end up dominating the more offensively oriented builds and create even further boon-based power creep. Holosmith having decent DPS has no bearing on the effectiveness of Scrapper either in a damaging or support role.

 

Replacing Purge Gyro with something else or comparing to Elixir Gun means less self-cleanse,  since Transmute as it currently is ends up being unreliable in activation because of a long internal cooldown, and you're limited to light fields blasting, which is kind of a mess. Still, replacing Purge Gyro I think wouldn't be a bad tradeoff, but some manner of self-cleanse would probably be a nice touch since Fumigate doesn't affect yourself.

 

Changes to Boon Thief have no bearing on the effectiveness or design of Support Scrapper.

 

19 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

it wuld be ok if we Replace Expert Examinator for Schocking Speed  that grants 2s Quickness on blast finisher in any field

 

If you look on HFB ... He got 3 traits to quickness ... First is for aegis+stab, secound on using heal, and 3 on f1-f3 

 

About Scrapper ... Now First trait Scrapper need take is superspeed on gyros ... Secound trait missing ... Last trait 2s Quickness on Superspeed

 

Expert Examination could be a decent prospect for alteration, yeah. However, I think the better approach than bringing back a facet of some deprecated skill (they did phase it out for a reason) — particularly one that would be reliant on prioritizing the Scrapper's lightning fields over other fields to maintain their benefits, which can't be easily guaranteed and possibly not preferred in many scenarios — would be to embolden a component of a support-y playstyle, but in a similar fashion as what Expert Examination currently does. For example, have it still provide some benefit from the application of a stun or daze, but for allies rather than a debuff on the enemy (which as-is can be underwhelming in a number of scenarios; or can be a combination of one or the other based on some criteria to allow some level of usefulness for builds that include that portion of things, but this runs the risk of being overloaded). Like, something along the lines of "Vulnerability Exploitation" and have it provide Fury or Might to allies, or vulnerability to the enemies, based on manner of daze/stun effect : this makes it an offensive benefit for allies with a gameplay aspect, and can be tuned to not compete with more damaging builds that would prefer Object in Motion.

 

I think it's worth bringing up that comparing the number of traits one class has dedicated to one aspect of their gameplay to another isn't necessarily indicative of the performance of either class or the builds' output, and neither should it be considered that for the same relative effect, each class that can do this should dedicate the same amount of traits — this just enforces homogeny, which is generally undesirable, when balancing can be done without that approach. For instance, if it takes fewer traits to have a similar effect to another class, that effect should be harder to access, less able to be maintained, or have some other balancing component. In doing so, comparative outputs can still exist without homogenizing the trait structure for all support variants. But if a role expects a certain amount of X or Y, the priority in the design should be to provide some manner of achieving that, relatively comparable to the others. In the case of Scrapper right now, its relative weakness on this front is due to it having to lose out a lot of its utility and can only just meet the minimum expectations of the role it's meant to participate in with this build.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

Scrapper providing Quickness in a support-oriented role is a fine enough idea, but it should be done in a way that doesn't devalue their other utility

@Cko.8749

with adional 8s of Quickness (16s in 100% boon) you will have alot time to press utilitys whenever you want 

 

Quote

 particularly one that would be reliant on prioritizing the Scrapper's lightning fields over other fields to maintain their benefits,

 

i added fire field as well as you blast in it in order to upkeep 25might

 

For practical reasons it good to have lighting field too in cause someone put it before your blast gyro (guardian/warrior banner) so that way you not lose Quickness

 

But we also As Scrapper got 2lighting fields 

 

Quote

. For example, have it still provide some benefit from the application of a stun or daze, but for allies rather than a debuff on the enemy

 

We can merge that bonus with System Schocer making it more interesint to take in pvp/wvw as dps insted of other 2

Edited May 13, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Cko.8749]

I believe that approach will just result in massive inflation of values and relative power, and in turn would overlap with offensive builds that would see far more use in that benefit in multiple game modes. Additionally providing things like fire fields seems thematically out-of-place for the nature of Support Scrapper, but I do agree that the necessity of maintaining 25 might for the party is an additional issue; just not something discussed in this thread as it's a side-conversation to the recent changes.

[Jski.6180]

If anet wants scraper to be support they need to rethink its selfish skills on hammer as well as its traits. Maybe give scraper barrier support (a LOT of ppl though scraper was going to be a build armor for your team mates class before they added in the barrier effect to the game).

[The V.8759]

I find it extremely weird that they even thought about adding Quickness for the scrapper. I can understand that they want to give scrapper a more supportivee role, since a "bruiser" role doesn't really have any use in PvE. However, it just has a lot of antisynergy with hammer skills. it decreases your reflect duration on 2... It reduces dash distance and evade frames on 3, it even decreases the duration you can block with skill 4 (yes, since it does damage, it is affected by quickness). I can't wrap my head around that. 

 

Something that would fit much more IMO, would be to have scrapper give barriers to allies, and then some buff to allies who have that barrier or whatever. But quickness is just flawed

[Kodama.6453]

11 hours ago, The V.8759 said:

I find it extremely weird that they even thought about adding Quickness for the scrapper. I can understand that they want to give scrapper a more supportivee role, since a "bruiser" role doesn't really have any use in PvE. However, it just has a lot of antisynergy with hammer skills. it decreases your reflect duration on 2... It reduces dash distance and evade frames on 3, it even decreases the duration you can block with skill 4 (yes, since it does damage, it is affected by quickness). I can't wrap my head around that. 

 

Something that would fit much more IMO, would be to have scrapper give barriers to allies, and then some buff to allies who have that barrier or whatever. But quickness is just flawed

Scrapper is already a really good healer thanks to med kit. Giving them good barrier support on top might just make them too powerful at protecting allies.

 

Also scrapper already had quickness before this change with applied force. They just shifted it from only personal quickness to team quickness. 

 

You don't have to use hammer on scrapper, btw. Support scrapper actually uses pistol/shield as weapons for the blast finisher and group protection. And you spend the big majority of the time in med kit, which profits from quickness by getting the auto attack off more often, increasing the healing you put out.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Cko.8749]

12 hours ago, The V.8759 said:

I find it extremely weird that they even thought about adding Quickness for the scrapper. ... it just has a lot of antisynergy with hammer skills.

 

Yeah. Tying defensive effects such as block and reflect to the duration of the skill which is universally modified by haste effects is a major approach flaw, which can only be addressed if they provide an exception rule for some skills. It's a bad approach and feels bad to have happen.

 

Quote

Something that would fit much more IMO, would be to have scrapper give barriers to allies, and then some buff to allies who have that barrier or whatever. 

 

Providing some manner of proactive / preventative support rather than reactive healing would be a much more thematically fitting method, opposed to the med kit spam that's currently used. Or, furthering some of the original feel of the spec by allowing the Scrapper to direct received damage from allies to themselves, and then mitigate that through their own actions, for instance, or at least to share some of their barrier generation with their allies, or even converting some % of healing done to barrier provided, etc. Tying those role-expected offensive boons to these defensive actions as part of the playstyle / flow would feel much better, too.

 

12 hours ago, The V.8759 said:

But quickness is just flawed

 

The point I was aiming at with this thread pretty much.

 

Quickness is only being included as a means of fulfilling a certain expectation of what it means to be a "Support" right now. Definitely not because it's thematically fitting.

 

If they want Quickness to be something Scrapper can provide and potentially allow them to fulfill that role in a group environment, then the loss of the other utility that's required just to nearly hit the minimum expectation of that role, is fundamentally a bad approach: The haphazard method of attaching it to and thereby overwriting existing utility priorities is something numbers can't fix. They can buff the Quickness uptime by 50% or 100% in order to avoid the biggest pitfall of the approach, but it's still far from optimal (still requires taking skills we wouldn't normally want, replacing useful kits or other utility).

 

There are certainly other flaws with the whole Support Scrapper as-is currently, but that was the key point I wanted to make since it was the big change with this patch.

 

On 5/13/2021 at 9:53 PM, Jski.6180 said:

If anet wants scraper to be support they need to rethink its selfish skills on hammer as well as its traits. Maybe give scraper barrier support (a LOT of ppl though scraper was going to be a build armor for your team mates class before they added in the barrier effect to the game).

 

That's how I thought of Scrapper would go early in its life, as well, as a sort of aggressive, bulky bruiser with defensively-oriented teamwork synergies. There are some components to this kind of bruiser style, like Bulwark Gyro, or Damage Dampener, which is strong on paper but not very useful and could be improved for team-play, but... well, it is what it is, haha. 

 

Now, this is a bit of an aside from the original topic, but ...

 

Since Scrapper's unique weapon type is hammer, I feel that there should be some incentive in its skills to use it in all playstyles the spec is sort of designed for; while maybe Scrapper wasn't ever "meant" to be a Support or a Healer at all, they've nudged it in that direction enough that it's fair to say it could be considered one (with perhaps a bit more work). So yeah, less-selfish hammer skills could at least provide some potential strengths when compared to the currently-necessary pistol-shield combo (which doesn't serve much purpose for the most part since you spend near-all your time in kits anyway).

 

However, a lot of hammer skills are pretty loaded already, so they'd need some effects removed. But for some examples, as briefly touched on above, sharing some of their barrier effect with one of their hammer skills would be nice and potentially one way to go, such as by toning back some of the effects of Rocket Charge and instead providing a % of the Scrapper's barrier generation from Impact Savant over the next X seconds to allies (to help enforce an aggressive playstyle outside of Med Kit spam in some scenarios). Or an effect provided from Shock Shield instead of the Vulnerability component that improves the team's defense (Protection/Resolution, or ... ugh, Aegis, I guess), or redirects some portion of team damage to the Scrapper, or something along those lines. Just examples, but in any case, idea being to provide team benefits without too adversely impacting other builds.

 

Med Kit is pretty strong and one of the key components to any support-y Scrapper, but it doesn't really matter if you're a Scrapper or not when it comes to using it, since basically nothing you take on Scrapper has any effect on the kit at all. But that's probably not something reasonably changed, and I think our time would be better spent considering how to make it more impactful to use in combination with our other lines like Alchemy, or how those lines could be better optimized for a team-oriented support. But that's all kinda outside the scope of the topic, haha.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Cko.8749
Minor adjustment to phrasing in one part.

[The V.8759]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Scrapper is already a really good healer thanks to med kit. Giving them good barrier support on top might just make them too powerful at protecting allies.

 

Also scrapper already had quickness before this change with applied force. They just shifted it from only personal quickness to team quickness. 

 

You don't have to use hammer on scrapper, btw. Support scrapper actually uses pistol/shield as weapons for the blast finisher and group protection. And you spend the big majority of the time in her kit, which profits from quickness by getting the auto attack off more often, increasing the healing you put out,

 

Lets get a few things straight:

 

- It is just a random suggestion. I aggree it might be too powerful, but at least mroe thematic to the specialisation

- Scrappers indeed had quickness before, which was even more flawed since it was self-quickness

- I know you don't have to use hammer. But elite specialisations are designed to work well with the weapon they get. I'm fine with the weapon lacking synergy with a few traits, but this is straight up anti-synergy. I know you use many other weapons and kits, but the point is that elite specialisation traits and weapon should not be working against one another. 

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

- I know you don't have to use hammer. But elite specialisations are designed to work well with the weapon they get. I'm fine with the weapon lacking synergy with a few traits, but this is straight up anti-synergy. I know you use many other weapons and kits, but the point is that elite specialisation traits and weapon should not be working against one another

Once thay add https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Speed insted of Expert Examinator

"Using Leap or Blast finisher in fire/lighting field applies 2s Qucikness around you"

You will have small interaction with hammer 3 as it's x2 leap

@The V.8759

Edited May 17, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[ArchonWing.9480]

So how much quickness uptime can you get with scrapper anyways?

[Infusion.7149]

9 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

So how much quickness uptime can you get with scrapper anyways?

100% but it's clunky and not much might + no real source of fury

[Cko.8749]

17 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

So how much quickness uptime can you get with scrapper anyways?

 

You generally use five skills (including tool-belt skills) on cooldown, with which you can maintain 100% Quickness uptime.

 

You'll additionally bring some Might (up to 11 stacks, or 13 if you spec HGH over Purity of Purpose), a decent amount of Protection, Regeneration, some Swiftness, and frequent Superspeed. No consistent source of Fury or Alacrity, and no way to get the rest of the Might stacks, though.

 

Other downside, as well, is that a sizeable portion of your actions become dedicated to a single effect irrespective of their original or primary purpose, as Quickness is often more worthwhile a priority than the other effects the Gyros currently have. 

[Imba.9451]

I tried around with the idea of a dps-boon-hybrid scrapper. I really liked the idea, and keeping it's skills on CD isn't as much of a probleme here than with a support scrapper, since you want to keep you damage gyros on cd anyway.

However, the main problem coming into place here is the length of it`s cooldowns to keep sufficient dps up. Additionally, some skills that really should not have long cast times do have cast times that actively keep your dps down as well.

 

I feel like the quickness change does really suit scrapper as a dps-class, it needs some numbers tweaking though.

And when it comes to support, HFB is still king. It simply excels at anything support related. As much as I love Guardian as my main class, Anet need to either lift other classes to it's level or get out the nerf hammer. There really is no reason not to play HFB if you need a support.

Even if you play dps-hybrid scrappe, you still need alacrity. This means either Mesmer or Rev. Then you need a healer. You could take a druid for that i guess. This means, in order to have Quickness, Alacrity and Heal covered, you need 3 Players. Take a HFB + Mesmer or Rev and you need only 2. The balance is way off here.

 

Edit: Btw, Object in motions seems to synergize too well with the concept of a dps-quickness-hybrid.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Imba.9451

[Infusion.7149]

On 5/20/2021 at 5:09 AM, Imba.9451 said:

I tried around with the idea of a dps-boon-hybrid scrapper. I really liked the idea, and keeping it's skills on CD isn't as much of a probleme here than with a support scrapper, since you want to keep you damage gyros on cd anyway.

However, the main problem coming into place here is the length of it`s cooldowns to keep sufficient dps up. Additionally, some skills that really should not have long cast times do have cast times that actively keep your dps down as well.

 

I feel like the quickness change does really suit scrapper as a dps-class, it needs some numbers tweaking though.

And when it comes to support, HFB is still king. It simply excels at anything support related. As much as I love Guardian as my main class, Anet need to either lift other classes to it's level or get out the nerf hammer. There really is no reason not to play HFB if you need a support.

Even if you play dps-hybrid scrappe, you still need alacrity. This means either Mesmer or Rev. Then you need a healer. You could take a druid for that i guess. This means, in order to have Quickness, Alacrity and Heal covered, you need 3 Players. Take a HFB + Mesmer or Rev and you need only 2. The balance is way off here.

 

Edit: Btw, Object in motions seems to synergize too well with the concept of a dps-quickness-hybrid.

The problem is in sustained damage, power quickness scrapper can't really keep up with CQB and because CQB is busted and does as much burst as a power build that is an issue.
https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/scrapper-quickness

I would only consider using heal quickness scrapper in a squad because you can have 10 man might/fury from another source whether it is tempest , power herald, or druid.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[cat.8975]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

CQB is busted and does as much burst as a power build that is an issue.

Not anymore. It takes around 17-20 seconds to reach its peak now. This is perfectly in line with other existing condi builds.
If the quickness on scrapper is buffed a little bit, I could see the dps variant being a potential contender for tryhard runs where they phase bosses in <15s, and the heal variant being a solid stand-in for HB.

People often overvalue aegis in parties with a healer. If you have strong enough healing and access to stability, the lack of aegis really wont matter. The only place where aegis is "overpowered" are full damage comps, but you could easily argue it as a risk-reward tradeoff where you're rewarded for the well-timed block. With scrapper, you could do a partial version of this via bulwark gyro + hammer block to nullify 35% of the damage from those big hits.

[Imba.9451]

I think Quickness Scrapper needs only a few number tweaks to be viable as a dps. Especially since scrappers talents would go so incredibly well with a damage-build.

You could either reduce a few cooldowns, wether it be on hammer-, toolbelt- or gyro-skills.

You could increase the damage of said skills a bit.

You could reduce cast times on certain skills, of erase casttime from gyros altogether.

You could add a one (or more( damage instances to hammer2.

You could increase the quickness duration you get from the talent, so you don't have to spec into concentration that much.

 

The way I look at it, quickness healer is a nice idea, but fundamentally flwaed due to having to keep so many skills on cd just to keep quickness up. However, DPS-scrapper only needs a few tweaks and it would be viable instantly.

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

Not anymore. It takes around 17-20 seconds to reach its peak now. This is perfectly in line with other existing condi builds.
If the quickness on scrapper is buffed a little bit, I could see the dps variant being a potential contender for tryhard runs where they phase bosses in <15s, and the heal variant being a solid stand-in for HB.

People often overvalue aegis in parties with a healer. If you have strong enough healing and access to stability, the lack of aegis really wont matter. The only place where aegis is "overpowered" are full damage comps, but you could easily argue it as a risk-reward tradeoff where you're rewarded for the well-timed block. With scrapper, you could do a partial version of this via bulwark gyro + hammer block to nullify 35% of the damage from those big hits.

Doesn't change the fact that you would need to use a utility (bulwark gyro). If the damage is potentially lethal then that means bulwark gyro is far worse because the block doesn't apply to others.

Mantra of solace should have never been such low cooldown considering the cooldown on aegis aources such as from mace, shield, or even "Retreat!". That's why it was nerfed in competitive modes as well (see sagebrand), but the recent lack of revert from <200 health base heal is an issue for those modes. Ever since distortion on mesmers was changed to share aegis (while traited mind you) instead of the distortion effect, this is especially true.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Cko.8749]

12 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

The way I look at it, quickness healer is a nice idea, but fundamentally flwaed due to having to keep so many skills on cd just to keep quickness up. 

 

This is basically the primary point I wanted to make, and what I had hoped would be the focus of the thread, though not necessarily for the reason you mention: having several skills on cooldown isn't a problem, assuming that the purpose of those skills is to provide their specific benefit. Having skills that are primarily focused around granting boons of some useful kind don't result in a case of "oh no I have to push buttons to keep my boon uptime", because that's what they're being used for, after all — the problem here is that the intentioned effects of the Gyros that now grant Quickness now are completely overshadowed and largely made irrelevant by the inclusion of Quickness onto them.

 

Secondarily, however, yes, the amount of Gyros that a Scrapper needs to bring does cut into other possible utility options, and that causes its own issues. Well, a Scrapper in a support sort of role is already kinda poor in this regard, and especially so when seen in comparison to the meta classes. "Support Scrapper" doesn't really have an identity in this regard, and while I would love to see that become an option (and thereby become more generally accepted to have something like a healer scrapper or a defensive/tank support), I think they're really going to need to hone-in on what they want this class to be able to do and where they can fit in a group, and actually all-in on making that happen instead of these rushed or half-baked incremental adjustments.

 

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Doesn't change the fact that you would need to use a utility (bulwark gyro). If the damage is potentially lethal then that means bulwark gyro is far worse because the block doesn't apply to others.

 

I'm a big fan of Bulwark Gyro as a whole, but it definitely isn't risk-free and to an extent, is reliant on the player skill of allies (that's fine, though, honestly). It's plenty useful for its intended purpose, and so I don't think it needs something like Aegis to band-aid the issue of making it another source of Quickness ... On the other hand, because it is a Quickness-provider, players are all-but required to use it in their uptime rotation, and should things line up poorly in some fights with certain burst phases and such, the support/healer's down. If they opt not to use Bulwark Gyro during this time, they're not fulfilling the expectation of their current role as "Quickness provider", which kind of defeats the purpose of bringing them along anyway, right?

 

Obviously, a highly optimized group that's incredibly familiar with the encounter can adjust their timings on skills to ensure that their Quickness-granting Gyro during that period isn't Bulwark Gyro so it doesn't down the Scrapper. But this is a tiny, tiny, fraction of the player base and most people are just going to use it as part of their Quickness-uptime rotation and are situationally / even randomly punished for having done so, or are just randomly lucky that it helped any of their allies like it was meant to in the first place.

[Obtena.7952]

It's interesting that someone would conclude the approach is flawed. I actually think it's clever ... you basically have dual mode skills and can choose how you want to use it depending on the situation. Do you execute a skill to get the base effect or the proc'ed effect? What I like is that it's a painful choice for players to make but that's not really flawed because while there is risk in making a choice in skill execution, the reward is great in either case. I can only wish we had more of that kind of thing in the game. 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

On 5/25/2021 at 2:26 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

It's interesting that someone would conclude the approach is flawed. I actually think it's clever ... you basically have dual mode skills and can choose how you want to use it depending on the situation. Do you execute a skill to get the base effect or the proc'ed effect? What I like is that it's a painful choice for players to make but that's not really flawed because while there is risk in making a choice in skill execution, the reward is great in either case. I can only wish we had more of that kind of thing in the game. 

 

 

The problem is that this approach, no matter how interesting, does not fit how the meta evolved. A dedicated player giving Quickness and a dedicated player healing is usually more efficient, thus making Quickness support scrapper simply not good enough to compete with those options. Or option, considering HFB delivers both.

You either decide to keep Quickness up, thus greatly cutting down the other utility of your spells, or you wait for a good situation to use your skills, cutting down quickness uptime. Thats why I prefer the talent to be used on DPS-Scrappers. But that leaves Support scrappers with alot less utility than other healers in the game.

I mean, sure, you can play it because it's fun. And it is. But it's not really efficient.

 

The idea on paper is nice - it simply doesn't fit right now. Additionally, but I admit that this is just me, I prefer dedicated classes/builds over being a bit of everything.

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

The problem is that this approach, no matter how interesting, does not fit how the meta evolved. A dedicated player giving Quickness and a dedicated player healing is usually more efficient, thus making Quickness support scrapper simply not good enough to compete with those options. Or option, considering HFB delivers both.

You either decide to keep Quickness up, thus greatly cutting down the other utility of your spells, or you wait for a good situation to use your skills, cutting down quickness uptime. Thats why I prefer the talent to be used on DPS-Scrappers. But that leaves Support scrappers with alot less utility than other healers in the game.

I mean, sure, you can play it because it's fun. And it is. But it's not really efficient.

 

The idea on paper is nice - it simply doesn't fit right now. Additionally, but I admit that this is just me, I prefer dedicated classes/builds over being a bit of everything.

Except the meta isn't relevant to how the game itself is designed to begin with because you can be successful with a WIDE range of non-meta builds. So no, it's not a problem with the approach. It's a problem with players that can't overcome the fact that you don't need optimal builds to be successful in the game. The only thing that prevents a player from playing something that is 'not efficient' ... is that player.  The game completely allows for playing 'not efficient' builds. ... and it fits always, since the begining of the game

Edited May 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Imba.9451]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except the meta isn't relevant to how the game itself is designed to begin with. So no, it's not a problem with the approach. It's a problem with players that can't overcome the fact that you don't need optimal builds to be successful in the game. The only thing that prevents a player from playing something that is 'not efficient' ... is that player.  The game completely allows for playing 'not efficient' builds. ... and it fits always, since the begining of the game

A Meta is a meta because it evolves around the most efficient way to play a game. It evolves out of the games design. In high level content, you want the most efficient builds in order to tackle said content. And if there are options that are just better, then there is no real variety in builds, it just makes one build objectively better than the other.

 

Additionally, you arguingin favor of a less efficient build is kinda ironoc, since you seem to like trashing down on build because they are "bad" for certain type of content, even if they allow a player to tackle said content - even if not in the most efficient way.

 

The concept of providing Quickness via spamming Gyros is nice, but the flaws in the current version are pretty much apparent. Or were apparent, since I dunno how viable it is with the 2.5 seconds Quickness the talent now provides. The tradeoff was (or maybe still is) not worth it and especially in case of a support build, makes this build a worse version of something another build can provide.

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451