if you main warrior

[Stalima.5490]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You stated "Berserker can instant kill" with the implication that it was viable to do so or that it mitigated the problems with warrior, when the build you were referring to that can achieve that damage is even more susceptible to the same basic gameplay maneuvers that keep warrior and berserker out of the meta to begin with. There's a reason you don't see rifle oneshot warriors everywhere. It's not just because they don't want to go strength/arms/zerker and wind up for 3-4 seconds for a chance to put one person into downstate; it's because on top of that already egregious telegraph they cannot respond to anyone that decides to port next to them.

 

Just throwing this out there, but what is to stop you from just using volley after berserk mode since it does more damage and you will have quickness meaning if they do not dodge this then they will lose their health bar before even recieving the gunflame in the first place...

 

Damage builds are designed to demolish targets, not to tank damage, any damage heavy build will die quickly on any class, this is why people usually don't play them, because they do not like incorporating the tradeoff of killing multiple enemies at the cost of dieing themselves even if this ends up as better for the team.

 

Why do you think every streamer uses a heavily bunkered up spec with a little bit of cheese burst, because cheese burst is effective and if you can build to be tanky while doing it then it breaks the game a little, they generally do not beat the raw output of a solid damage dealer however who can very quickly pressure an enemy support, you can't support while downed and your allies can't really expect to survive without healing.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Stalima.5490

[fluffypaws.2860]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

Just throwing this out there, but what is to stop you from just using volley after berserk mode since it does more damage and you will have quickness meaning if they do not dodge this then they will lose their health bar before even recieving the gunflame in the first place...

 

Damage builds are designed to demolish targets, not to tank damage, any damage heavy build will die quickly on any class, this is why people usually don't play them, because they do not like incorporating the tradeoff of killing multiple enemies at the cost of dieing themselves even if this ends up as better for the team.

 

Why do you think every streamer uses a heavily bunkered up spec with a little bit of cheese burst, because cheese burst is effective and if you can build to be tanky while doing it then it breaks the game a little, they generally do not beat the raw output of a solid damage dealer however who can very quickly pressure an enemy support, you can't support while downed and your allies can't really expect to survive without healing.

Hey. Look, these glass builds don't work with rifle unless you're zerging in wvw.

 

Let's go in the duelling server for an hour and I'll show you why.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Just throwing this out there, but what is to stop you from just using volley after berserk mode since it does more damage and you will have quickness meaning if they do not dodge this then they will lose their health bar before even recieving the gunflame in the first place...

 

1.) you're still susceptible to the windup of burning several utilities in order to open with berserk.

2.) Even with quickness, volley is still slower than gun flame. 

3.) Nobody will let you hit them for all five shots of volley. you also give them time to escape, LoS or gap close while you are channeling volley.

 

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Damage builds are designed to demolish targets, not to tank damage, any damage heavy build will die quickly on any class, this is why people usually don't play them, because they do not like incorporating the tradeoff of killing multiple enemies at the cost of dieing themselves even if this ends up as better for the team.

 

There's two issues here. One of them is tangentially related to the point. This.

 

.>any damage heavy build will die quickly on any class,

 

This is not necessarily true.

 

DPS Ranger has access to stealth, blocks and a low CD evade to allow them to reposition properly, even on glass builds.

DPS engie (namely holo) has access to stealth, blocks, and a complete invuln to mitigate damage.

DPS Necro has high base health, damage reduction from shroud, swiftness access baked in to their traits, and two ports. 

DPS Ele has a complete invuln, instant cast damage with scepter that doesnt have a telegraph, and a port/blocks on utility.

DPS mesmers and thieves are mesmers and thieves. This shouldn't  need explaining. 

DPS Revenant has multiple evades, an instant gap closer, weakness, and some access to swiftness baked in 

DPS guard (Namely dragonhunter), even if we ignore the access to trapper runes that allows them to function in the role you think rifle warrior also functions in, still has access to several blocks, blinds, and a complete invuln besides this. 

 

DPS warrior has... endure pain? a 75 sec cooldown shout that breaks stuns and clears condis? An interruptible rush?

 

Every other class in this game has some means of surviving for a short period of time/mitigating incoming damage long enough to reset their burst. either wholly or in part. Warrior is the only class that does not, least of all zerker because of how its adrenaline gate works. I am not saying that every class is busted, only that warrior is weak and expecting "but zerker gunflame" to be the obvious fix to it is particularly unpleasant. 

 

This:

 

> This is why people usually don't play them

 

This is largely because of bunker scourge. And even with that being the case, you will still see them from time to time paired with a bunker scourge. My hangup is that warrior damage loses to every other classes damage because of how avoidable it is. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Why do you think every streamer uses a heavily bunkered up spec with a little bit of cheese burst, because cheese burst is effective and if you can build to be tanky while doing it then it breaks the game a little, they generally do not beat the raw output of a solid damage dealer however who can very quickly pressure an enemy support, you can't support while downed and your allies can't really expect to survive without healing.

 

I don't understand the significance of the above. I don't care about streamers, I just want the zerker spec to function. 

 

I'm having difficulty understanding why you think so adamantly that standing with line of sight to any class in the game for 3-4 seconds while you set up your burst, is going to work on a large amount of people that know how to play the game, and how you arrived at the conclusion that people don't do this on warrior merely because they want to bunker.

 

Please fight Mack or I.  

[Navinius.2481]

Warrior is decent sidenoder tbh its fine for ranked but if you played against alot of really good players you will feel its weaknesses for sure

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 if they gave warrior reliable access to anything other than small frequent heals that are shut down by weakness and blind spam the PvP forum would be besides itself with outrage.

 

[CaffeeCup.5742]

I'm still fairly new to spvp, and I love warrior and I try a bunch of different builds, but weapon skills (especially core ones) are clunky to use.  Also, why bolas won't hit moving targets like, say, throw axe or bladetrail would. I have to use it on a crippled/immob/ stunned target to reliably connect, otherwise it's 50/50 won't hit a kiting target even at fairly close range.  I like to use it, nice follow up to something like shield bash or dagger 3, but could be more reliable, I think.

 

Also, core melee, especially sword, mace and hammer, with my non-ideal 200ms latency, just won't connect, again, unless target is crippled/immob/stunned.  Hammer aoe constantly fail on varying surface elevations.  Newer e-spec weapons seem much more latency lenient with its attack execution, it feels like.  Axe and GS connect maybe because of wider arc than swords? and better wind up than hammer?  

 

It's tough... condi spam is tough to deal with.  Maybe why SpB is the 'safe pick' meta, in a way.  Full-Counter is like a demo preview to the kind of spammy 'oh kitten' get out of jail free card that some of the more busted classes have.

 

I, honestly don't have opinion on which class I think is broken, and by how I play pvp, I really don't care.  In the end pvp for me is still in the fun learning stages.  I also play Guardian and Ranger, but Warrior is just the class I feel really comfortable with.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, CaffeeCup.5742 said:

I'm still fairly new to spvp, and I love warrior and I try a bunch of different builds, but weapon skills (especially core ones) are clunky to use.  Also, why bolas won't hit moving targets like, say, throw axe or bladetrail would. I have to use it on a crippled/immob/ stunned target to reliably connect, otherwise it's 50/50 won't hit a kiting target even at fairly close range.  I like to use it, nice follow up to something like shield bash or dagger 3, but could be more reliable, I think.

Alot of things about warrior could be more reliable than they currently are, but then the PvP forums would QQ all over it.

17 minutes ago, CaffeeCup.5742 said:

 

Also, core melee, especially sword, mace and hammer, with my non-ideal 200ms latency, just won't connect, again, unless target is crippled/immob/stunned.  Hammer aoe constantly fail on varying surface elevations.  Newer e-spec weapons seem much more latency lenient with its attack execution, it feels like.  Axe and GS connect maybe because of wider arc than swords? and better wind up than hammer?  

Welcome to warrior gameplay circa 2013.

17 minutes ago, CaffeeCup.5742 said:

It's tough... condi spam is tough to deal with.  Maybe why SpB is the 'safe pick' meta, in a way.  Full-Counter is like a demo preview to the kind of spammy 'oh kitten' get out of jail free card that some of the more busted classes have.

and yet some people feel that FC is toxic.

17 minutes ago, CaffeeCup.5742 said:

I, honestly don't have opinion on which class I think is broken, and by how I play pvp, I really don't care.  In the end pvp for me is still in the fun learning stages.  I also play Guardian and Ranger, but Warrior is just the class I feel really comfortable with.

Some classes just seem to 'fit' like a set of well worn in shoes. You know the feeling. All the right grooves sit in all the right places. That makes it extra difficult to swallow some of the design choices that have affected warrior this past year and a half.

 

Welcome to Warrior btw!

[Stalima.5490]

As I said, the warrior more or less has the highest burst damage in the game, even when transferred into a more defensive build the warrior will hold one of the highest burst capabilities, it is only excessified when using a full dps setup.

 

You are also confusing dps and duelist builds, dps are more about critical timing on enemies while duelists are more about 1v1ing people, it makes no sense to ask a dps to duel a duelist because the duelist is designed for fighting the dps while the dps is designed for deleting bunkers and supports, usually while they are already busy.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Stalima.5490

[fluffypaws.2860]

40 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

As I said, the warrior more or less has the highest burst damage in the game, even when transferred into a more defensive build the warrior will hold one of the highest burst capabilities, it is only excessified when using a full dps setup.

 

You are also confusing dps and duelist builds, dps are more about critical timing on enemies while duelists are more about 1v1ing people, it makes no sense to ask a dps to duel a duelist because the duelist is designed for fighting the dps while the dps is designed for deleting bunkers and supports, usually while they are already busy.

Warrior is currently at the bottom of the barrell in competitive play. If we have the highest burst damage and rifle builds are super viable and incredibly bursty , why hasn't there been a shift in the meta?

[Stalima.5490]

3 minutes ago, Mack.3045 said:

Warrior is currently at the bottom of the barrell in competitive play. If we have the highest burst damage and rifle builds are super viable and incredibly bursty , why hasn't there been a shift in the meta?

Probably because Warrior players are generally looking for a tanky melee build like a greatsword bruiser especially.

 

When you think of warrior, you do not think gunner/archer.

 

You can also achieve similar burst results with other burst skills as i showed with the main hand axe (this does not require an offhand axe)

Edited May 26, 2021 by Stalima.5490

[fluffypaws.2860]

4 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Probably because Warrior players are generally looking for a tanky melee build like a greatsword bruiser especially.

 

When you think of warrior, you do not think gunner/archer.

 

You can also achieve similar burst results with other burst skills as i showed with the main hand axe (this does not require an offhand axe)

Of course ! But the value of running such setups as a warrior in competitive play is demonstrated by not being part of the meta 😉

 

You can run whatever you want dueling or in unranked.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

As I said, the warrior more or less has the highest burst damage in the game, even when transferred into a more defensive build the warrior will hold one of the highest burst capabilities, it is only excessified when using a full dps setup.

 

This is an aside, tired but please note at the beginning of this thread I was critting for 8k gunflames on a glass build that didn't focus on burning every utility it had as an opener. Glass DH can hit that on an 8 second CD with true shot. From stealth. 

 

That's besides the point though. I'm fine with 8k gunflames without having to burn utilities, if I had some more mitigation on the zerker line to supplement that. 

 

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Probably because Warrior players are generally looking for a tanky melee build like a greatsword bruiser especially.

 

When you think of warrior, you do not think gunner/archer.

 

Warriors aren't shying away from berserker all-in gun flame because they don't like the aesthetics. It's practically narrow application and bad at doing anything outside of that one shot. 

 

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

You can also achieve similar burst results with other burst skills as i showed with the main hand axe (this does not require an offhand axe)

 

Axe damage is fine.

 

The problem is that the options warriors (namely berserkers) have for mitigating any incoming damage while trying to deliver a single strike burst that can be blinded, culled with weakness, interrupted, cc negated, blocked or a myriad of the other things you can do to evade a single strike burst are not covering the effort it takes to ensure that burst lands cleanly.  That issue remains unresolved no matter how much damage you stack into a particular weapon, on berserker. 

 

Berserker's bad and it needs hard mitigation built into its line so it can more aggressively pursue that big damage. I'm fine with gunflame doing 8k with utilities unburned. 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[crewthief.8649]

4 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Probably because Warrior players are generally looking for a tanky melee build like a greatsword bruiser especially.

 

When you think of warrior, you do not think gunner/archer.

 

You can also achieve similar burst results with other burst skills as i showed with the main hand axe (this does not require an offhand axe)

Come on. Players will use what is optimal, period. If that build was as rock-solid as you claim it is, it would be run in PvP. You are making some huge leaps in logic here.

[felix.2386]

On 5/26/2021 at 3:31 AM, Stalima.5490 said:

Probably because Warrior players are generally looking for a tanky melee build like a greatsword bruiser especially.

 

When you think of warrior, you do not think gunner/archer.

 

You can also achieve similar burst results with other burst skills as i showed with the main hand axe (this does not require an offhand axe)

its funny because if you play rifle build or just power berserker in general anyone with a brain will farm you all game and make you useless 

[Stalima.5490]

16 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

its funny because if you play rifle build or just power berserker in general anyone with a brain will farm you all game and make you useless 

 

This is only 1 way to use the rifle... even if using demolisher for increased toughness as an example, you will still have substantial damage output.

 

I don't doubt that there are other busted ways to play the warrior as with any proffesion.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

This is only 1 way to use the rifle... even if using demolisher for increased toughness as an example, you will still have substantial damage output.

 

I don't doubt that there are other busted ways to play the warrior as with any proffesion.

 

Using Demolisher will not resolve the issue. All it does is introduce the possibility that classes that would otherwise die if hit by gunflame/all of volley will now survive. That 500 toughness will not buy you 10 seconds once you swap off of rifle, or prevent any of the other issues mentioned above. It'll only put you 200 toughness above a full glass amulet since zerker by nature removes 300 toughness from you for even entering the mode. 

 

You're arguing that a broken or busted build for berserker exists in theory as the reason for why berserker doesn't need some more mitigation in its line? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If you have a rifle build that mitigates the problems mentioned above, let's hear it. I have no problem playing rifle if it is effective on berserker. 

 

That spar request is still open. I just want to see it in action.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Stalima.5490]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Using Demolisher will not resolve the issue. All it does is introduce the possibility that classes that would otherwise die if hit by gunflame/all of volley will now survive. That 500 toughness will not buy you 10 seconds once you swap off of rifle, or prevent any of the other issues mentioned above. It'll only put you 200 toughness above a full glass amulet since zerker by nature removes 300 toughness from you for even entering the mode. 

 

You're arguing that a broken or busted build for berserker exists in theory as the reason for why berserker doesn't need some more mitigation in its line? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If you have a rifle build that mitigates the problems mentioned above, let's hear it. I have no problem playing rifle if it is effective on berserker. 

 

That spar request is still open. I just want to see it in action.

 

you can simply spec into bottom line berserker if you want a tough berserker so i still don't see your point, if any...

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

you can simply spec into bottom line berserker if you want a tough berserker so i still don't see your point, if any...

 

On 5/26/2021 at 4:51 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The problem is that the options warriors (namely berserkers) have for mitigating any incoming damage while trying to deliver a single strike burst that can be blinded, culled with weakness, interrupted, cc negated, blocked or a myriad of the other things you can do to evade a single strike burst are not covering the effort it takes to ensure that burst lands cleanly.  That issue remains unresolved no matter how much damage you stack into a particular weapon, on berserker. 

 

Berserker's bad and it needs hard mitigation built into its line so it can more aggressively pursue that big damage. 

 

Giving back 300 toughness that was taken from the class merely for existing is not hard mitigation. Neither is minorly healing them and revoking their mechanic if they happen to down while in it.

 

Feel no pain is a good trait. There needs to be more of it. @ZDragon.3046 had some good suggestions about how to resolve it. See below. 

-----------------------------------------------------------

My suggestion is to increase berserkers viability to keep up with core and spellbreaker builds without just making it hit bigger numbers than the other two options. I feel like adding more raw dps is not the solution needed here. (seeing as how the other two options sometimes already hit bigger numbers in the majority of players hands) I think the utility side needs to be adjusted not the outgoing damage.

 

Savage Instinct Activating berserk mode breaks stuns and reduces incoming damage. Activating Primal Burst reduces incoming damage.

Feel No Pain (2s): -100% Incoming Damage.

Feel No Pain (1s): -100% Incoming Damage (Primal Burst Activation)

(This change promotes the ideal play style of berserker and increases risk for reward. Using a burst to punish a foes burst)

 

Burst of Aggression Gain a burst of speed when entering berserk mode. 

Quickness (3s) / Super speed (3s)

The next trait highlights this one as this changes is kind of needed. It makes no sense that this is a one off minor that basically does nothing. There should be an risky optional to expand upon it. (see Bloody Roar Grand Master suggestion)

 

Bloody Roar: Deal increased damage while in berserk mode. Gain Burst of Aggression when using a Primal Burst.

15% Damage increase. 

BoA: Quickness (3s) / Super speed (3s) 

This change is just outright needed somewhere in the berserker elite if not under the BoA trait itself then some where else. It makes no sense that the Burst of Aggression trait is a one off activation with no options to make more use of it. This is a perfect addition to bloody roar!

 

Outrage: Break out of stun and extend the duration of berserk mode. The extension of berserk mode increases and conditions are removed if a stun was broken.

Duration Increase: 1 second

Stun-Break Duration Increase: 5 seconds

Stun-Break Condition removal: 2 conditions removed.

I would say this is more than fair as the suggested buff implies that you must be stunned to even take advantage of it.

 

Headbutt: Stun your target and stun yourself. Gain adrenaline and extend berserk duration if you hit. This skill ignores the blind and immobilize conditions, removes all stability, and deals increased damage if stability was removed.

Berserker use to have a few skills that ignored the blind condition. I think that should make a return specifically on this skill.

 

Rupturing Smash (Hammer Primal Burst): This skill now impacts a full circle at the target location around the berserker instead of a half circle. 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Stalima.5490]

I think that proves it, you just lost to a thief and are now mad about it... seriously if you hate thiefs just take berserker stance and disable blind along with multi hit weapons.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

I think that proves it, you just lost to a thief and are now mad about it... seriously if you hate thiefs just take berserker stance and disable blind along with multi hit weapons.

 

You're trolling at this point. It's fine to not have any retort beyond Ad Hominems. 

I secondary thief by the way. 

 

@ "Multi hit weapons" 

Which one?

 

@"Berserker stance"

 

Not dignifying that. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Stalima.5490]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

You're trolling at this point. It's fine to not have any retort beyond Ad Hominems. 

I secondary thief by the way. 

 

what else is it when you are asking for hard mitigation when you have 3 traits specifically designed as hard mitigation on the bottom row of berserker or are you expecting to be able to use a berserker set's damage while being able to use a soldier set's toughness?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

what else is it when you are asking for hard mitigation when you have 3 traits specifically designed as hard mitigation on the bottom row of berserker or are you expecting to be able to use a berserker set's damage while being able to use a soldier set's toughness?

 

See above for why only one of those traits is hard mitigation (and should be taken anyway because of the breakstun). 

 

I don't want this thread to get closed for not being productive, so I'll stop here. We obviously disagree about what is suitable for berserker. You can fight me with rifle berserker whenever you want if you want me to see the error of my ways. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Ewon.5903]

I'm trying to get back into some pvp this season on warrior. What sort of builds are currently the best option on warrior? I've been trying to watch some streamers, but I'm seeing them all swap off to rev/ranger/engi.

 

Alternatively, what might be a natural swap for a war main to another class

Edited May 28, 2021 by Ewon.5903

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

58 minutes ago, Ewon.5903 said:

I'm trying to get back into some pvp this season on warrior. What sort of builds are currently the best option on warrior? I've been trying to watch some streamers, but I'm seeing them all swap off to rev/ranger/engi.

 

Alternatively, what might be a natural swap for a war main to another class

 

Power Herald and Soulbeast are suitable warriors.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Headbutt could have some boonrip tbh. Like 1 or 2 boons, baseline with no sigils. I think it's appropriate. That with an attack speed increase of 25% and an improved range of 50 to compensate for the visual tell, as well as to allow more movement for the warrior would make this an elite worthy skill.