New Necro elite spec whishlist - EoD

[LucianDK.8615]

I meant damage sponge as in becomming accepted by groups as a worthy tank.

[Anchoku.8142]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

I'm not sure you can decently add more to:

- 33% damage reduction from prot (can be kept up permanently)

- Perma weakness

- 33% damage reduction from "Rise!" (can be kept up almost permanently)

- Shroud inate damage reduction.

- 20% damage reduction from infusing terror.

 

To which you can add:

- 10% damage reduction from food.

- Augury of Death, Soul Eater, Blighter Boon sustain.

- Blood magic sustain.

- Blind sources (Nightfall, Well of Darkness)

- ... etc.

 

If with all that you can't sponge damage then nothing will.

IMO, the only reason Reaper cannot tank is because it is still subject to control effects and, therefore, cannot reliably control mob positioning. All Necro spec's are susceptible to control effects by design.

 

Toughness and sustain are not what I consider a problem but lack of good anti-contol effect skills and traits is, and I do not mind at all. Plenty of other professions are easily capable of holding aggro and holding position.

 

It is Death Magic and Carapace that I consider poorly thought out.

[Redpawa.4108]

12 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

I'm not sure you can decently add more to:

- 33% damage reduction from prot (can be kept up permanently)

- Perma weakness

- 33% damage reduction from "Rise!" (can be kept up almost permanently)

- Shroud inate damage reduction.

- 20% damage reduction from infusing terror.

 

To which you can add:

- 10% damage reduction from food.

- Augury of Death, Soul Eater, Blighter Boon sustain.

- Blood magic sustain.

- Blind sources (Nightfall, Well of Darkness)

- ... etc.

 

If with all that you can't sponge damage then nothing will.

EDIT: I completely misread this post and attempted to kitten on you, soz.

Fun calculations about Reaper-Tank viability:
With every healing trait (except Soul Eater) you can get up to 282 hp/s under ideal conditions (DM/SR). Which is completely insufficient given you miss out on half of your healer's healing.

Reaper will never be a tank until:
- Allied healing works in shroud, even at a 50% rate. Could be balanced by removing the passive 50% reduction.
- Modify defiance so that defensive condi's such as Weakness, Blind, and Chill work somewhat on bosses. Which almost definitely won't happen.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Redpawa.4108

[Dadnir.5038]

@Anchoku.8142 & @Redpawa.4108

I answer to whether it can sponge damage or not. It can.

 

Furthermore, without healing power and assuming an average of 2 hits per second:

- Vampiric + Vampiric aura = 152 hp/s (without minions and out of shroud) / 187 hp/s (without minion and 50% shroud uptime)

- Mak of evasion -> Regen = 148 hp/s (let's say 74 hp/s with 50% shroud uptime)

- Blighter Boon + Corruptor fervor = 14 hp/s  /  Sigil of courage + Blighter Boon = 42 hp/s (assuming 50% shroud uptime)

- Assuming perma "rise!" and 5 minions out of it at 1 hit every 2s, Vampiric add: 132 hp/s

- Blood fiend by itself can net you 120 hp/s

- Vampiric signet can net you 198 hp/s

- Weapon choice/skill/sigil ... etc.

 

I'm pretty sure we can easily go far above the 282 hp/s under "ideal conditions" even without healing power.

 

Example: PvE (marshal gear/dwayna runeset + mark of evasion, vampiric, vampiric aura) = 557 hp/s -> that's just assuming 2 hits/s, no extra. Add signet of vampirism passive effect and you're at 612 hp/s. Add "You're all weakling!" 5 targets/blighter boon/augury of death for 240 extra hp/s to the total netting you already 852 hp/s... etc. (add dagger#2 always assuming 50% shroud uptime for the fun and you're beyond 1300 hp/s)

 

So, like I said, if you want to soak damage as a reaper, it's easy you got damage reduction and sustain, you just have to build for it.

 

Now, I agree with anchoku that the lack to preemptively deal with hard CC hurt the reaper ability to tank, but if we purely talk about soaking damage you can hardly make better than reaper. More than what the reaper have would even be "to much".

Edited June 9, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Axl.8924]

On 6/6/2021 at 8:38 PM, Wintermute.5408 said:

That's an overly long way of saying "necro is bad in PVE". Thanks, point proven. Do you seriously expect anet to rework the game mode to suit our class? Or maybe it's the class that needs change, or at least option? Either way, we didn't get both for years.

 

There is meta in PVE. Specific requirements formulated in HoT and never changed since then. You may like it, you may dislike it, but class either fits in, or it doesn't. Except other classes get updated over time. When I left GW2 somewhere in the middle of LW4, Scrapper was never played in PVE period. Now it's suddenly a healer option with boon gen - option, mind you, not mandatory. What did necro get in the same time span? Oh, right, we lost ability to generate protection.

UM scourge got improved.

I don't know when you quit but scourge is meta now for raids as support and has higher dps than reaper. Granted its bound to be nerfed though. Even if you nerf the dmg, the support is still at least viable for pve raids.

 

Also multiple classes are being nerfed down in pve.

 

Ele got hit, mesmers got hit in pve hard with condi mirage nerfs, guardian i believe got hit and so did rev.

 

A nerf to other classes isn't necessarily a buff to us, but it certainly lowers the wall of entry to raid.

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Redpawa.4108]

34 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm pretty sure we can easily go far above the 282 hp/s under "ideal conditions" even without healing power.

Sorry that was the number left over after I edited passive aggressive math out of the post.

The assumption made was that as Reaper provides no unique utility it will be doing the Tank/DPS hybrid rather than the Tank/Support hybird used in comps right now. When splitting for tank and dps the most efficient lines tend to be Death Magic - Soul Reaping, and that number specifically refers to the sustain available in that type of build.

Ideally Blighter's Boon would be swapped to a trait that provides better stability/CC denial access, and Soul Eater would be fully focused around the life leech aspect (allowing it to be accessed in shroud again).

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Redpawa.4108 said:

Sorry that was the number left over after I edited passive aggressive math out of the post.

The assumption made was that as Reaper provides no unique utility it will be doing the Tank/DPS hybrid rather than the Tank/Support hybird used in comps right now. When splitting for tank and dps the most efficient lines tend to be Death Magic - Soul Reaping, and that number specifically refers to the sustain available in that type of build.

Ideally Blighter's Boon would be swapped to a trait that provides better stability/CC denial access, and Soul Eater would be fully focused around the life leech aspect (allowing it to be accessed in shroud again).

 

Unfortunately ANet won't give reaper more way to deal with hard CC because it's meant to be the necromancer's weakness. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a viable tank/dps. People see "tank" they think no damage. Technically, along with blood magic reaper have enough support to "tank" as a tank/support, the only reason it doesn't is that the support offered by the necromancer don't really satisfy the need that a group can have where a tank is needed (or at least this support is less interesting than what other tank offer).

 

In the end it all boil down to PvE not being adapted to what the necromancer offer. Which bring us back to one of my other posts in this thread where I say that defiance need some work, PvE's outgoing condition design need some work and some bosses could afford to be immun to crit and have high condition damage reduction (leading to an improvement of the standing of boon conversion, condition manipulation and life leeching in PvE end game).

[Nimon.7840]

14 hours ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

IMO, the only reason Reaper cannot tank is because it is still subject to control effects and, therefore, cannot reliably control mob positioning. All Necro spec's are susceptible to control effects by design.

 

Toughness and sustain are not what I consider a problem but lack of good anti-contol effect skills and traits is, and I do not mind at all. Plenty of other professions are easily capable of holding aggro and holding position.

 

It is Death Magic and Carapace that I consider poorly thought out.

I don't think they are the only reasons why necro isn't a good tank.

 

In the meta, a tank either needs to be able to buff/heal the group, or needs to do good damage while also tanking.

Most of the times it's the first case: you need to be able to buff or heal. Core necro and reaper are both not really able to do so.

Also they handle high pressure fight very poorly.

 

Sure, I can go into a raid with my 42k HP necro +30k shroud. But some encounter will still easily kill you, because necro has no active damage reduction (blocks, evades, invulns). And the other problem: that build won't really heal nor give any considerable buffs/boons to the group.

 

Because necro doesn't have active defense, you need to invest into defensive stats.

 

And playing some better equip like minstrel, maybe something like this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSQAYlZwYYgMHYqfp1qA-zRJYjRBfIoPA-e

 

Still won't help. Can you tank? Yes.

is it effective? No.

 

Literally all other classes do the job as well but better (maybe not thief, at least not on every raid boss)

 

 

[Anchoku.8142]

6 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

I don't think they are the only reasons why necro isn't a good tank.

 

In the meta, a tank either needs to be able to buff/heal the group, or needs to do good damage while also tanking.

I do not think this is strictly true. A tank's sole purpose is to control mob position. Other players can do buffing, healing, debuff and dps. However, hate-management can vary between games because of how the game calculates it. Other games I have played take into account dps, healing and other factors where GW2 only seems to rely on toughness. 

 

I played FFXI when it came out on PS2 and it took a brutal view on aggro generation and removal:

* Healing anyone produced aggro according to the heal amount. If an Ele in GW2 dropped a massive AoE heal, the formula in FFXI would focus the boss entirely on punishing the Ele.

* Pure dps professions could steal hate from the tank simply by doing too much damage so they often had to meter out the dps instead of maximizing it.

* Tanks had to generate hate using skills and keep holding aggro by avoiding or reducing imcoming damage. GW2 would take conditions like Taunt to add a large amount of aggro, boons like Protection to reduce loss of aggro resulting from taking damage and damage avoidance skills like Mesmer's sword skill, Blurred Frenzy. If a mob was unable to sufficiently punish a player, the player would retain that much aggro and the boss' attention.

 

The aggro calculation in GW2 is pretty simple. The "tank" has only two things to consider: high toughness in the build and ways to avoid or prevent control effects from disabling the ability to control mob position.

 

With that said, Arenanet has added wandering and movement skills to bosses that make controlling position difficult or impossible. Still, toughness rules for simpler mobs and bosses.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Anchoku.8142

[Mik.3401]

On 5/20/2021 at 2:08 PM, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Mainhand weapon, no shroud, no minions. 

You cannot disable the present utility skills. I think a profession with no shroud would need to be either a healer or minion master indeed. Both of the roles can kind of be used already so it’s kind of awkward to think about new elite spec.

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 hour ago, Mik.3401 said:

You cannot disable the present utility skills. I think a profession with no shroud would need to be either a healer or minion master indeed. Both of the roles can kind of be used already so it’s kind of awkward to think about new elite spec.

I think you misunderstood. I want the spec to have a mainhand weapon and use lifeforce for something that isn't a shroud, like reaper or core.  When I say no minions I mean no focus on extra minions since a) it's already covered by core and b) they will not be competitive. The Devs have outright said that they don't want AI playstyle to be very dominant in the competitive game modes. 

 

Why would no shroud need minions or be a healer? Seems a very arbitrary limitation to me. They can literally do whatever they want with no shroud as a spec. 

 

Shroud in and of itself is one of the limiting factors preventng certain tools being available on the class. It's very hard to add something like stealth, blocks, evasion etc when you have up to an effective ~140% to 165% max hp barrier available. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082
Spelling...

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Shroud in and of itself is one of the limiting factors preventng certain tools being available on the class. It's very hard to add something like stealth, blocks, evasion etc when you have up to an effective ~140% to 165% max hp barrier available. 

Sadly, Shroud is a necessary function for any Necromancer elite specialization. Without it, some traits just don't work.

Since they have to include a type of Shroud, no matter what the specialization will be, the best you can hope for is that they make it closer to Scourge's shroud and not too close to Reaper's Shroud or Death Shroud.

 

As for Stealth, I hope it's not going to pollute the new Necromancer elite specialization.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Sadly, Shroud is a necessary function for any Necromancer elite specialization. Without it, some traits just don't work.

Since they have to include a type of Shroud, no matter what the specialization will be, the best you can hope for is that they make it closer to Scourge's shroud and not too close to Reaper's Shroud or Death Shroud.

 

As for Stealth, I hope it's not going to pollute the new Necromancer elite specialization.

I didn't think it was  really that hard to understand when I say "no shroud" I mean no shroud like core or reaper...

 

I mean I directly referenced the HP buffer that those two give you which is , and has been, used as a reason for the specs not having certain features of the game available to them. 

 

Scourge is a no shroud spec. This is what I was referring to when I say the spec shouldn't have one and instead have some more interesting mechanics that press F1 to shift modes and absorb damage. 

 

Again didn't think this was such a mental leap to understand from what I said but hey ho. 

 

Life force is just a resource. They can have it be used for literally anything. As long as you have something to consider F1 , F2,F3,F4, and entering / exiting shroud for traits. Scourge is an example of having it be used to cast skills at a fixed cost but since it's just you have X amount of resource to do something with that something could be, again, almost anything. 

 

A set of skills, a kit, a set of facet like buffs etc etc the list goes on. I just do not what something that would be considered a conventional shroud ala core / reaper. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082