Alacrity

[Astralporing.1957]

On 5/20/2021 at 3:30 AM, Jski.6180 said:

What about giving it to elite spec vs other elite spec?  It would let all classes get all boons with out having all classes having the same boons.

 

The idea of giving strong support boons to a dps spec isnot one that should be continued. Alac on Mirage was a very, very bad move. Alac on Weaver (because that's what you're really asking for, right?) would be even worse.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The idea of giving strong support boons to a dps spec isnot one that should be continued. Alac on Mirage was a very, very bad move. Alac on Weaver (because that's what you're really asking for, right?) would be even worse.

Two more days until May 25 patch, we'll see what happens with Mirage (#1 offender this patch) and condi deadeye.
 

There's multiple avenues of balancing those, but I suspect the quick and easy method will be taken (scaling back modifiers added in the last patch and changing Chaos Vortex) if not just readjusting torment across the board for the new damage values (see condi scourge, condi renegade which also gained a few thousand damage).

Chaos traitline rework also influenced mirages on axe I believe. Illusionary Membrane's 10% modifier is quite large considering it is a minor trait and so is the +250 expertise bonus on Chaotic Persistence.

I'm not sure how deadeye could be fixed given the only major change this patch was the +25% bleeding modifier on Deadly Ambush , but probably the repeater skill will be reduced a bit if torment isn't changed. Damage split on condi deadeye is 30% bleeding, ~28% torment , ~26% poison. That means a slight reduction in either torment damage (which is likely) or the +25% bleeding damage to say 15 or 20% would already make it less ridiculous. However, because the change was likely meant with dagger+dagger in mind rather than pistol+dagger I would say a repeater bleeding stack reduction will probably end up being the balancing mechanism.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

13 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Two more days until May 25 patch

 

Is this certain? I'm not on my Pc rn and won't be for a while, and this mobile format of the forum doesn't help with searching stuff. 

 

I don't remember any statement on a patch on the 25th. Perhaps I missed something? Or is another update on content coming and you believe a patch in balance is inbound as well? 

 

Thanks for answering in advance. 

[Infusion.7149]

13 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Is this certain? I'm not on my Pc rn and won't be for a while, and this mobile format of the forum doesn't help with searching stuff. 

 

I don't remember any statement on a patch on the 25th. Perhaps I missed something? Or is another update on content coming and you believe a patch in balance is inbound as well? 

 

Thanks for answering in advance. 

Basically 100% certain there is a May 25 patch. It may not be a complete balance retune but in the past unless something broke the game (i.e. most recently Strength runes or Vicious Expression last year) the balance fixes were delayed to reduce server load.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/return-to-living-world-season-2-story-begins-may-25/
"Beginning May 25, we’ll spotlight two episodes of Living World Season 2 each week, in chronological order. "

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-live-summer-2021/
 

Quote

Starting May 25, Living World episodes will be in the spotlight chronologically.
... (removed stuff in between)
May 25: PvP League Season 27 and Weeklong Bonus
Prepare for battle! Call of the Mists will be active during the first week of Season 27

It would make sense that they gather internal metrics on the imbalanced builds (because the May 11 patch was meant as a shakeup to introduce condi into mainstream) and then act on the data rather than knee-jerk nerfing them. All we can do as players is ensure that all the broken builds are at least brought to their attention so they pay attention to those outliers that players can clearly see is broken.

[Jski.6180]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The idea of giving strong support boons to a dps spec isnot one that should be continued. Alac on Mirage was a very, very bad move. Alac on Weaver (because that's what you're really asking for, right?) would be even worse.

I do agree is not a good ideal to give strong boons to dps classes but that is what anet did even with was is though of as an support class but can do high dmg in FB with quinkness boon. The balance is realty messed up with boons mostly because of how easier it is to get boon duration with out giving up dmg and that the base duration of these strong boons are on the kind of high size.

 

@Infusion.7149

 

I did not think about an update on the 25 maybe!

[Infusion.7149]

It's almost certain, also see

We’ve made a few additions to the Edge of the Mists arena that will go live with the May 25^th release

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's almost certain, also see

We’ve made a few additions to the Edge of the Mists arena that will go live with the May 25^th release

Thank you for the heads up!

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I do agree is not a good ideal to give strong boons to dps classes but that is what anet did even with was is though of as an support class but can do high dmg in FB with quinkness boon. The balance is realty messed up with boons mostly because of how easier it is to get boon duration with out giving up dmg and that the base duration of these strong boons are on the kind of high size.

The solution to broken balance is to try to fix it back. Not to mess it up even further. that's why being generous in giving out important boons like candies to everyone is a very, very bad idea.

So, if someone wants to add something specific to a specific class/espec, it's possible to talk about the pros and cons of that idea, but a general idea of just adding boons all around will (hopefully) get shut down anytime someone brings it up.

[Jski.6180]

23 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The solution to broken balance is to try to fix it back. Not to mess it up even further. that's why being generous in giving out important boons like candies to everyone is a very, very bad idea.

So, if someone wants to add something specific to a specific class/espec, it's possible to talk about the pros and cons of that idea, but a general idea of just adding boons all around will (hopefully) get shut down anytime someone brings it up.

I realty do not think you can fix it back unless your willing to take away a LOT from the meta classes. These meta classes are very "un-fun" to play and the only reason why ppl run them is because they have strong boons and the ability to play high dps.

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I realty do not think you can fix it back unless your willing to take away a LOT from the meta classes. These meta classes are very "un-fun" to play and the only reason why ppl run them is because they have strong boons and the ability to play high dps.

Let's just say i disagree with you on that last part. Many of the meta classes are actually quite fun to play - and i am sure that those that are not fun to me also have their fans.

 

Firebrand, for example, is a very good condi dps class. It does not need boons to be good. Those should have been left solely for its heal/support setup. Unfortunately, as it is now, it is able to both dps and heal or support at the same time. If willing to sacrifice a significant amount of dps, even all 3 together. Compare that with original chrono builds, before Anet started tampering with it - those, in order to offer boons had to sacrifice majority of its dps (or practically all of its dps, if you wanted to gain some very mediocre healing options). Compare that with tempest healer, that originally offered no boons (which was a mistake, btw) and had three-digit dps values.

 

Like i said, adding too much boons (or too strong boons) to dps builds does break things. And, again, the solution to that is never to keep breaking stuff even more.

 

I completely agree with you that in order to fix things, you will need to take away a lot of stuff from several classes. As long as it is being done with a plan (because those classes will still need to be useful even after that - just in one role at a time, not in many). I don't see that plan at this moment, unfortunately, but that's not a reason to encourage devs to make even more bad decisions.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Grzechu.2564]

On 5/16/2021 at 4:43 PM, Raffrey.5271 said:

I don't understand...

 

The symbol of alacrity is a clock, it was meant to be a boon as a result of time manipulation. How can any class be better than a chronomancer, when it comes to time manipulation?

 

Some random idea:

-Orders From Above: split the 1.5s of alacrity into 0.75s of alacrity and quickness.

-Chaos Vortex: quickness instead of alacrity, or split into 1.5s of alacrity and quickness.

 

........or maybe change the symbol for alacrity? 🤔

 

I'm sorry but are you gate keeping alacrity because of Icon? . . . so I shouldn't be able to give and use might unless I have a sword becuase might icone is a sword or I can't give and use quickness unless I'm using light class beucase they don't use heavy armour and therefore are fast.

[Jski.6180]

@Infusion.7149

 

I do not have the class unlocked though it would not too bad too to do but did they nerf the 10 target in wvw or not? If not i do not know what anet is thinking but it dose seem they nerfed the duration in pve some what.

[Infusion.7149]

22 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

@Infusion.7149

 

I do not have the class unlocked though it would not too bad too to do but did they nerf the 10 target in wvw or not? If not i do not know what anet is thinking but it dose seem they nerfed the duration in pve some what.

It was a PVE only change, mirage only has 1 dodge in WvW anyway. If you run a staff mirage in WvW you're at a disadvantage in any non-roaming situation , especially since Winds of Chaos autoattack on clones was nerfed this May 25 patch as well.

[Jski.6180]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It was a PVE only change, mirage only has 1 dodge in WvW anyway. If you run a staff mirage in WvW you're at a disadvantage in any non-roaming situation , especially since Winds of Chaos autoattack on clones was nerfed this May 25 patch as well.

You would be shocked how much they can still pull it off in wvw. 10 target boons realy need to not be in the wvw environment (spvp dose not madder) or at least bring back the other 10 target boon effects.

 

Thank you for the info though.

[ZDragon.3046]

On 5/16/2021 at 11:43 AM, Raffrey.5271 said:

I don't understand...

 

The symbol of alacrity is a clock, it was meant to be a boon as a result of time manipulation. How can any class be better than a chronomancer, when it comes to time manipulation?

 

Some random idea:

-Orders From Above: split the 1.5s of alacrity into 0.75s of alacrity and quickness.

-Chaos Vortex: quickness instead of alacrity, or split into 1.5s of alacrity and quickness.

 

........or maybe change the symbol for alacrity? 🤔

 

Yes and a warrior can just yell and scream at you to to give might making your muscles and mental focus stronger with sheer confidence while other professions infuse you with magic to achieve the same result.

 

Just because its a clock does not mean the base idea must be time manipulation.

Take rev for example renegade provides alacrity, Renegade's legend is a charr who micro managed an army which likely took a great deal of efficiency.  

The boon is a clock, but perhaps renegade is not manipulating time but simply inspiring its allies to use their abilities and actions in combat more efficiently than they other wise would on their own, thus cutting down time between each use.

 

I like to think most boons can be provided in many different ways through different thematic perspectives based on the profession that is providing the boon. 

 

 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

On 5/16/2021 at 5:43 PM, Raffrey.5271 said:

I don't understand...

 

The symbol of alacrity is a clock, it was meant to be a boon as a result of time manipulation. How can any class be better than a chronomancer, when it comes to time manipulation?

 

Some random idea:

-Orders From Above: split the 1.5s of alacrity into 0.75s of alacrity and quickness.

-Chaos Vortex: quickness instead of alacrity, or split into 1.5s of alacrity and quickness.

 

........or maybe change the symbol for alacrity? 🤔

 

 

 

Are you suggesting to replace "scrapper", Chrono, Q/Hfb, Aren, druid combinations... in squads, by only 2 renegades or 2 mirages?

How does it solve the issue ?

Edited May 26, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Yes and a warrior can just yell and scream at you to to give might making your muscles and mental focus stronger with sheer confidence while other professions infuse you with magic to achieve the same result.

 

Just because its a clock does not mean the base idea must be time manipulation.

Take rev for example renegade provides alacrity, Renegade's legend is a charr who micro managed an army which likely took a great deal of efficiency.  

The boon is a clock, but perhaps renegade is not manipulating time but simply inspiring its allies to use their abilities and actions in combat more efficiently than they other wise would on their own, thus cutting down time between each use.

 

I like to think most boons can be provided in many different ways through different thematic perspectives based on the profession that is providing the boon. 

 

 

This here is absolutely the case. Different classes are using different thematical methods to grant the same boons to allies. Some examples:

 

Might

• Warrior inspires and hypes up allies around them, you tend to become more confident if you have a big strong dude at your side
• Engineer literally throws concoctions with steroids at allies (for anyone not knowing: HGH stands for human growth hormone and is a steroid to help muscle growth)
• Necromancer can use blood magic, sacrificing their own life essence to strengthen their allies (blood is power)

 

Quickness

• Guardians as firebrands are inspiring their allies with speeches and tales, encouraging them with the power of words
• Engineer (scrapper) uses the momentum of their mechanical devices (gyros) to speed up their allies both in movement and their attacks

 

Protection

• Elementalist uses earth magic to protect their allies, like covering them with a shell of sand or rocks
• Engineer is using magnetic fields created by their shield to weaken the force of the enemy hits

 

Swiftness

• Elementalist uses air magic, like giving you backwind to fasten you
• Engineer uses different concoctions to make your body faster
• Guardiansnrally you with their shouts to go faster

 

Alacrity started as a time themed boon at first, since this is the thematical explanation how chronomancer is granting it as the first spec to get access to it.

But other classes can get access to the boon as well with a completely different thematic behind it.

 

For example, they could give it to engineer with an alchemy themed elite spec and the explanation is that their concoctions are speeding up the metabolism of their allies, which lets them recover faster from exhaustion and therefore they can uses their attacks which require great strength and endurance more frequently.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

This here is absolutely the case. Different classes are using different thematical methods to grant the same boons to allies. Some examples:

 

Might

• Warrior inspires and hypes up allies around them, you tend to become more confident if you have a big strong dude at your side
• Engineer literally throws concoctions with steroids at allies (for anyone not knowing: HGH stands for human growth hormone and is a steroid to help muscle growth)
• Necromancer can use blood magic, sacrificing their own life essence to strengthen their allies (blood is power)

 

Quickness

• Guardians as firebrands are inspiring their allies with speeches and tales, encouraging them with the power of words
• Engineer (scrapper) uses the momentum of their mechanical devices (gyros) to speed up their allies both in movement and their attacks

 

Protection

• Elementalist uses earth magic to protect their allies, like covering them with a shell of sand or rocks
• Engineer is using magnetic fields created by their shield to weaken the force of the enemy hits

 

Swiftness

• Elementalist uses air magic, like giving you backwind to fasten you
• Engineer uses different concoctions to make your body faster
• Guardiansnrally you with their shouts to go faster

 

Alacrity started as a time themed boon at first, since this is the thematical explanation how chronomancer is granting it as the first spec to get access to it.

But other classes can get access to the boon as well with a completely different thematic behind it.

 

For example, they could give it to engineer with an alchemy themed elite spec and the explanation is that their concoctions are speeding up the metabolism of their allies, which lets them recover faster from exhaustion and therefore they can uses their attacks which require great strength and endurance more frequently.

That is how boon should be looked at how they are applyed not what they do for each class. That means you should be able to open up boons for all classes but have each class apply them in there own way. Also i am starting to realize maybe alacrity and quinkness are too powerful for what they do to this game and what they mean for any class to have them applyed to them by support classes.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

7 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Yes and a warrior can just yell and scream at you to to give might making your muscles and mental focus stronger with sheer confidence while other professions infuse you with magic to achieve the same result.

 

Just because its a clock does not mean the base idea must be time manipulation.

Take rev for example renegade provides alacrity, Renegade's legend is a charr who micro managed an army which likely took a great deal of efficiency.  

The boon is a clock, but perhaps renegade is not manipulating time but simply inspiring its allies to use their abilities and actions in combat more efficiently than they other wise would on their own, thus cutting down time between each use.

 

I like to think most boons can be provided in many different ways through different thematic perspectives based on the profession that is providing the boon. 

 

 

Revenants explicitly manipulate time though. That's what the Mists are. Renegade's f2 even says "Open a portal through the mists of time, unleashing a storm of artillery from the united legions."

Edited May 26, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daniel Handler.4816]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

This here is absolutely the case. Different classes are using different thematical methods to grant the same boons to allies. Some examples:

 

Might

• Warrior inspires and hypes up allies around them, you tend to become more confident if you have a big strong dude at your side
• Engineer literally throws concoctions with steroids at allies (for anyone not knowing: HGH stands for human growth hormone and is a steroid to help muscle growth)
• Necromancer can use blood magic, sacrificing their own life essence to strengthen their allies (blood is power)

 

Quickness

• Guardians as firebrands are inspiring their allies with speeches and tales, encouraging them with the power of words
• Engineer (scrapper) uses the momentum of their mechanical devices (gyros) to speed up their allies both in movement and their attacks

 

Protection

• Elementalist uses earth magic to protect their allies, like covering them with a shell of sand or rocks
• Engineer is using magnetic fields created by their shield to weaken the force of the enemy hits

 

Swiftness

• Elementalist uses air magic, like giving you backwind to fasten you
• Engineer uses different concoctions to make your body faster
• Guardiansnrally you with their shouts to go faster

 

Alacrity started as a time themed boon at first, since this is the thematical explanation how chronomancer is granting it as the first spec to get access to it.

But other classes can get access to the boon as well with a completely different thematic behind it.

 

For example, they could give it to engineer with an alchemy themed elite spec and the explanation is that their concoctions are speeding up the metabolism of their allies, which lets them recover faster from exhaustion and therefore they can uses their attacks which require great strength and endurance more frequently.

Alacrity

Mesmers use ether to manipulate the rules of physics in an area, in this case the time/space continuum.

Revenants manipulate the fabric of time and space itself (mists).

 

The method of time manipulation is different. But the theme is the same.

[Kodama.6453]

11 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Alacrity

Mesmers use ether to manipulate the rules of physics in an area, in this case the time/space continuum.

Revenants manipulate the fabric of time and space itself (mists).

 

The method of time manipulation is different. But the theme is the same.

Even if this is the case (I doubt it, because how is a skill called "Orders from Above" representing time manipulation thematically? The explanation that the strict orders of the revenant make allies use their skills more efficiently makes more sense), this does not mean that all classes applying alacrity have to use time thematically.

 

As explained, all boons in the game are created differently when it comes to thematics. There is no reason to think alacrity is different.

Giving classes unrelated to time alacrity is fine and chronomancer doesn't have to be the best alacrity source just because they have a time theme.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

4 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Even if this is the case (I doubt it, because how is a skill called "Orders from Above" representing time manipulation thematically? The explanation that the strict orders of the revenant make allies use their skills more efficiently makes more sense), this does not mean that all classes applying alacrity have to use time thematically.

 

As explained, all boons in the game are created differently when it comes to thematics. There is no reason to think alacrity is different.

Giving classes unrelated to time alacrity is fine and chronomancer doesn't have to be the best alacrity source just because they have a time theme.

Where/when do you think Above is?  If you need the tool tip to literally spell it out for you their other citadel order says "open a portal through the mists of time, unleashing a storm of artillery from the united legions." 

 

All traps in this game are created different. That doesn't change what a trap skill is.

Chronomancer also isn't even the best alacrity source. That would be renegade or mirage.

 

This is not to say other class can't get alacrity. But thematically it should be some sort of time manipulation. 

 

[Kodama.6453]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Where/when do you think Above is?  If you need the tool tip to literally spell it out for you their other citadel order says "open a portal through the mists of time, unleashing a storm of artillery from the united legions." 

 

All traps in this game are created different. That doesn't change what a trap skill is.

Chronomancer also isn't even the best alacrity source. That would be renegade or mirage.

 

This is not to say other class can't get alacrity. But thematically it should be some sort of time manipulation. 

 

And my point is: no, alacrity does not need to always get created by time manipulation.

 

All that is required is that a cooldown reduction has some sense thematically.

Like I explained with my example for engineer using chemicals to increase the metabolism of allies, so they can use attacks which require alot of strength or endurance more frequently.

 

It's the same with other boons, they don't have a thematic hard locked for them. Mesmer is creating quickness through time manipulation as well, but this didn't stop scrapper from getting quickness with a mechanical theme (using momentum).

 

For me, it seems like you just lack the imagination to come up with other proper explanations for improved cooldown times beside time manipulation.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

26 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

And my point is: no, alacrity does not need to always get created by time manipulation.

 

All that is required is that a cooldown reduction has some sense thematically.

Like I explained with my example for engineer using chemicals to increase the metabolism of allies, so they can use attacks which require alot of strength or endurance more frequently.

 

It's the same with other boons, they don't have a thematic hard locked for them. Mesmer is creating quickness through time manipulation as well, but this didn't stop scrapper from getting quickness with a mechanical theme (using momentum).

 

For me, it seems like you just lack the imagination to come up with other proper explanations for improved cooldown times beside time manipulation.

First off they are never going to give it to engineers because they have kits. They would give it to something like thieves.

 

Second you don't see fire fields giving regeneration. And every skill that does is related to water, light, or life (or a random effect). So yes, not all boons are locked to a single theme, but they do have shared concepts. 

 

I'm aware you could come with more themes for how alacrity is applied.  But they currently have not. Most likely because it was originally not a boon. It's treated more like a skill type.

There are multiple professions that can shout. They all do it different ways. It is thematically the same thing.

Similarly there are two professions who can mess with time.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

First off they are never going to give it to engineers because they have kits. They would give it something like thieves.

 

Second you don't see fire fields giving regeneration. And every skill that does is related to water, light, or life (or a random effect). So yes, not all boons are locked to a single theme, but they do have shared concepts. 

 

I'm aware you could come with with multiple themes for how alacrity is applied. But they currently have not. Most likely because it was originally not a boon. It's treated more like a skill type.

There are multiple professions that can shout. They all do it different ways. It is thematically the same thing.

Similarly there are two professions who can mess with time.

I don't say that engineer will get the effect. With scrapper getting quickness, I doubt that we will get alacrity as well. It was just the first example coming to my mind as an engineer main how it could get implemented without using time manipulation.

 

About regeneration being always tied thematically to water, light or life: let's test that claim.

• Bandage blast, not related to water, light or life, they are literally just bandages
• Hide in shadows, not related to these
• "Hold the Line", just an encouraging shout, not related
• Dogged march, just discipline from a warrior, not related
• Upper hand, implies that thief takes advantage by taking the enemy by surprise after an attack

 

There are probably more examples, but I guess this gets the point across. It's not true that regeneration is always themed around these. Unless you want to claim that literally everything a living being does is "life themed", at which point it becomes meaningless since it applies to everything in the game then.

 

That alacrity used to not be a boon doesn't matter, it is one now. There is nothing dictating anet that they have to theme it around time always. They can easily implement it in other ways and I guess they will do so in the future.

•