Kodama.6453 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: @Kodama.6453 and @lodjur.1284 , what classes are you playing? Engineer and Elementalist? Well, when one of the 2 best classes in WvW are coming on Ranger's forum and complain so badly about 1 specialization thing that literally is 100% the same as other 2 specialization in downstate, that means you guys don't have a clue about how to play your class. If you, specially you two with your classes who can stomp every classes due to your ability stability/immunity are complain about this, then it is crystal clear how well do you know your class and how good you are. You simply don't get it and instead always resort to personal attacks. I don't have any problems with stomping rangers. I just use elixir s and safe stomp them, no problem. But just because my class can personally ignore it I won't just accept bad game design. I made an entry in the bug forum calling this out right now. Either Anet acknowledges this behaviour to be a bug and fixes it or they embrace it as a mechanic of the game, but then they should also properly communicate it by giving it an UI. This here is literally the only instance in the entire game in which someone can use active skills while the game is not telling you visually that you can use these skills. It is a design failure when it comes to UI. Players should not have to figure out impactful mechanics like these by accidentally pressing buttons and then noticing that they are doing something. I still believe that it is a bug and they should disable these skills in downstate. But if they decide to embrace it as a feature, I can live with that, as long as they properly implement it as a feature. Edited June 3, 2021 by Kodama.6453 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonzhunter.8506 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said: This here is literally the only instance in the entire game in which someone can use active skills while the game is not telling you visually that you can use these skills. It is a design failure when it comes to UI. Players should not have to figure out impactful mechanics like these by accidentally pressing buttons and then noticing that they are doing something. Because Ranger is literally the only class in the entire game with a proper/real pet. Simple 🙂 Ranger's pet is not an accessory for some specific builds as are minions or clones for necro and mesmer. Pet is part of Ranger for all specialization and for all builds. When you, lodjur and other players will understand this, you will understand also the reason of swap pet in downstate. Edited June 3, 2021 by Dragonzhunter.8506 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigo.9037 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 25 minutes ago, Faolain.2374 said: Did you even read my posts? I literally won a 3vs1 on warrior, downed and successfully stomped 2 other players no problems what so ever because each of them only got to interrupt my stomp once, like every profession except ranger. Ofc most professions can cc you again if you mess around and don’t start stomping as soon as your first stomp was interrupted, but this ranger legit interrupted 3 stomps in a row back to back. Nothing else can do this, so I doubt this interaction is intentional. This is not a l2p issue as like I said I won the 3vs1 eventually, it just took 12 seconds to stomp this ranger because of this bs. If it was not the ranger that was the last player in the 3vs1 I would not have been able to stomp or finished this guy. I refuse to believe I should have to take a skill specifically to stomp rangers since this is not a problem with any other professions’ downed state. Imagine if you needed a reveal skill to finish a thief player lmao Remove downedstate period, easy peasy fix 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: Because Ranger is literally the only class in the entire game with a proper/real pet. Simple 🙂 I explain again.... Maybe you don't know this, but for good game design, there are some rules you should follow. One of these is that you have to properly communicate mechanics, what a player can and can't do, etc. Anet was very consistent with this. Whenever you can use an active skill (meaning: the skill activates if you press a specific button to activate it), it is shown on your screen. Doesn't matter if it is a skill from your class, it is something you can interact with in the world (so the [F] interaction pops up on your screen), it is a special skill mechanic, which is usually shown with a new skill icon above your class mechanic skills with [-] as the default key, you name it. Anet is breaking their own game design here by not showing you on your screen "if you press F2 while in downstate, your pet will do their beast skill, if you press F4 while in downstate, you will swap pets!". It doesn't matter that ranger is the only class with a proper pet. This is a fundamental design mistake they made there, since they are not properly telling you what you are able to do while in downstate. Hence why I said "players shouldn't have to press buttons accidentally to figure stuff out". In every other situation, the game shows you on your screen what you are able to do. This is the only exception and why I believe that it is not intended behaviour, because it is such a fundamental thing. If they intended this to work in this situation, they should have built an UI for that. Edited June 3, 2021 by Kodama.6453 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonzhunter.8506 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said: I explain again.... Maybe you don't know this, but for good game design, there are some rules you should follow. One of these is that you have to properly communicate mechanics, what a player can and can't do, etc. Anet was very consistent with this. Whenever you can use an active skill (meaning: the skill activates if you press a specific button to activate it), it is shown on your screen. Doesn't matter if it is a skill from your class, it is something you can interact with in the world (so the [F] interaction pops up on your screen), it is a special skill mechanic, which is usually shown with a new skill icon above your class mechanic skills with [-] as the default key, you name it. Anet is breaking their own game design here by not showing you on your screen "if you press F2 while in downstate, your pet will do their beast skill, if you press F4 while in downstate, you will swap pets!". It doesn't matter that ranger is the only class with a proper pet. This is a fundamental design mistake they made there, since they are not properly telling you what you are able to do while in downstate. Hence why I said "players shouldn't have to press buttons accidentally to figure stuff out". In every other situation, the game shows you on your screen what you are able to do. This is the only exception and why I believe that it is not intended behaviour, because it is such a fundamental thing. If they intended this to work in this situation, they should have built an UI for that. I am sorry Kodama, but I think you are wrong. There are many things in GW2 without explanations from Anet. Anet/GW2 doesn't have a Compendium about skills/mechanics etc. The only explanations about game are on https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/ , and those are very simple and represent 1% of what they should have. If they have one please tell me where I can find it. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page is not written by Anet. Everything you find there is written and maintained by players. Maybe if someone who is really dedicated and with support of Anet will start a section about skill mechanics of Ranger in downstate. Why and how they can use pet skilss/actions etc. But once again, don't make a bad assumption that what is written on Wiki is Anet/dev things. That's why I am saying you and other guys are trapped in something what nobody said it is white or black. The only thing we have and is the reality it is the fact this mechanic of swap pet was since the beginning, and was what Anet intended to be. Wasn't a bug or a mistake. You guys want to consider this to be one, just because you don't see key commands on the UI. But there are many things "hidden" which are not shown on UI. And this whole problem/discussion about swap pet in downstate comes only because someone doesn't want Soulbeast to be able to do this because in combat Soulbeast can't. Nobody had anything with swap pet in downstate until now. I am already tired to explain you that Soulbeast in downstate is the same as Core Ranger and Druid, and doesn't benefit from Beastmode anymore as was when he was alive. Because the main problem Anet disable swap pet on Soulbeast in combat, was the fact Soulbeast had access to go in 1-2 sec from damage dealer to tank/healer mode, and this was kinda OP from other classes POV. Anyway, I think I should stop argue anymore on this subject. Have a good day or night! Edited June 3, 2021 by Dragonzhunter.8506 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: I am sorry Kodama, but I think you are wrong. There are many things in GW2 without explanations from Anet. Anet/GW2 doesn't have a Compendium about skills/mechanics etc. The only explanations about game are on https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/ , and those are very simple and represent 1% of what they should have. If they have one please tell me where I can find it. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page is not written by Anet. Everything you find there is written and maintained by players. Maybe if someone who is really dedicated and with support of Anet will start a section about skill mechanics of Ranger in downstate. Why and how they can use pet skilss/actions etc. But once again, don't make a bad assumption that what is written on Wiki is Anet/dev things. That's why I am saying you and other guys are trapped in something what nobody said it is white or black. The only thing we have and is the reality it is the fact this mechanic of swap pet was since the beginning, and was what Anet intended to be. Wasn't a bug or a mistake. You guys want to consider this to be one, just because you don't see key commands on the UI. But there are many things "hidden" which are not shown on UI. And this whole problem/discussion about swap pet in downstate comes only because someone doesn't want Soulbeast to be able to do this because in combat Soulbeast can't. No body had anything with swap pet in downstate until now. I am already tired to explain you that Soulbeast in downstate is the same as Core Ranger and Druid, and doesn't benefit from Beastmode anymore as was when he was alive. Because the main problem Anet disable swap pet on Soulbeast in combat, was the fact Soulbeast had access to go in 1-2 sec from damage dealer to tank/healer mode, and this was kinda OP from other classes POV. Anyway, I think I should stop argue anymore on this subject. Have a good day or night! Name me just one single example of an active skill in the game which isn't shown as an icon on the UI. You say there is alot of stuff not shown in the game, so it should be easy to just name 1 example except ranger downstate pet skills, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonzhunter.8506 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said: Name me just one single example of an active skill in the game which isn't shown as an icon on the UI. You say there is alot of stuff not shown in the game, so it should be easy to just name 1 example except ranger downstate pet skills, right? I didn't say skill, I said things. I am too tired now, maybe next days. Even I don't see the point anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faolain.2374 Posted June 3, 2021 Author Share Posted June 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: I didn't say skill, I said things. I am too tired now, maybe next days. Even I don't see the point anymore. @Kodama.6453 I think you won 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Faolain.2374 said: @Kodama.6453 I think you won 😂 Can you blame them for defending such a bug though really? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Marshal.4098 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 As if ranger pet swap on downstate actually impacts anything. If you are a good ranger you don't even care, cause you know how to kite and pick your fights. I know 3 amazing rangers who don't even care to use f skills while downed cause they know they will probably die in WvW, since 1 man roaming does not exist and enemy groups can focus on downies far more effectively. I understand wanting to defend such a mechanic for your main class but it's a design failure and you cannot dictate whether it's intentional or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Substance E.4852 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 Someone identified one of the last few things the pet does well and naturally immediately calls for it to be removed from the game Hilarious 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonzhunter.8506 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: Can you blame them for defending such a bug though really? I am not defending anything, just want to open their eyes/mind about the fact swap pet in downstate for Soulbeast should be the same as for Core Ranger and Druid. Why? I explained many times in this post. As Grand Marshal said: 42 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said: I know 3 amazing rangers who don't even care to use f skills while downed cause they know they will probably die in WvW, since 1 man roaming does not exist and enemy groups can focus on downies far more effectively. Agree, in WvW using all downstate skills 99% of the time is useless, because you will get rekt by the enemies group/raid in a sec. I don't care if they will change it or not, in fact I wish the downstate to be take out from the game, at least in sPVP and WvW. When you die you should stay dead. But I don't like this hate for Soulbeast. Have a good day/night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotejjeken.1267 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 15 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said: You are seriously saying that locking skills in downstate would be a difficult task because it is related to the pet? And because Anet has stated that the merge mechanic was difficult to code? No offense, but I get the feeling you don't know how coding actually works. Disabling skills would be really easy, it wasn't hard for Anet to disable pet swap for soulbeasts either. Creating the merge mechanic was problematic because of entirely different mechanics than locking specific skills from getting used. No offense, but I'm not sure you do either. I bet you didn't realize that ranger pets are tied to the general creature AI of the game right? So doing anything with them is extremely difficult? Whereas UI coding is literally the easiest form of coding? Anyway, the answer is essentially this: 18 minutes ago, Substance E.4852 said: Someone identified one of the last few things the pet does well and naturally immediately calls for it to be removed from the game Hilarious 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said: No offense, but I'm not sure you do either. I bet you didn't realize that ranger pets are tied to the general creature AI of the game right? So doing anything with them is extremely difficult? Whereas UI coding is literally the easiest form of coding? Anyway, the answer is essentially this: Disabling a button to get activated has nothing to do with creature AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotejjeken.1267 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said: Disabling a button to get activated has nothing to do with creature AI. Are you sure about this? The fact the ranger has identical pet mechanics in downstate as in not means that you have to tamper with the swap and F2 altogether to disable them. Tampering with the swap and F2 likely means breaking some other aspect of the pet due to how it is interwoven with other AI behaviors. You act like anet has the most modular code ever when it's been proven over the past nine years they can't change a single thing without breaking three others. Just see the latest issue with breaking llama interaction by re-enabling living story quests...it's all over the game. So yeah, it'd be far easier to add some UI elements to downstate rather than try to manipulate an entire structure to please the what, three people concerned about this? I mean it might be a newsflash but they don't care about adding UI elements like this because there are far bigger fish to fry. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said: Are you sure about this? The fact the ranger has identical pet mechanics in downstate as in not means that you have to tamper with the swap and F2 altogether to disable them. Tampering with the swap and F2 likely means breaking some other aspect of the pet due to how it is interwoven with other AI behaviors. You act like anet has the most modular code ever when it's been proven over the past nine years they can't change a single thing without breaking three others. Just see the latest issue with breaking llama interaction by re-enabling living story quests...it's all over the game. So yeah, it'd be far easier to add some UI elements to downstate rather than try to manipulate an entire structure to please the what, three people concerned about this? I mean it might be a newsflash but they don't care about adding UI elements like this because there are far bigger fish to fry. They literally already disabled pet swap for soulbeasts while in combat without any problems. Now you gonna tell me they can't do this stuff without "tampering with pets as a whole". Sure. Whatever, I am done with rangers keeping to pull excuses why it is oh so hard for Anet to disable 2 buttons or that it must be an intended interaction "because muh pet is my soulbound companion". I just put it on the bug forum and hope anet is not too lazy to fix this stuff (but unfortunately I think they will be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonzhunter.8506 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 55 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said: They literally already disabled pet swap for soulbeasts while in combat without any problems. Now you gonna tell me they can't do this stuff without "tampering with pets as a whole". It's not so easy, because they must add something in exchange. I already explained to you why. I have one question for you, seems you know a lot about coding, if you guys are so good in coding, and all the time I see all ppl saying they know everything about coding and it is so easy to change this, to change that ... why in the world in absolute all games, even it is about MMO, FPS, RTS etc, when the dev is changing 1 thing they broke another 3? If you guys from the forums are so good at coding, why don't you work for these companies? Anet, Blizzard etc, and do the things right? Do you want to tell me that these big companies are hiring only incompetent ppl? Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 15 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: It's not so easy, because they must add something in exchange. I already explained to you why. I have one question for you, seems you know a lot about coding, if you guys are so good in coding, and all the time I see all ppl saying they know everything about coding and it is so easy to change this, to change that ... why in the world in absolute all games, even it is about MMO, FPS, RTS etc, when the dev is changing 1 thing they broke another 3? If you guys from the forums are so good at coding, why don't you work for these companies? Anet, Blizzard etc, and do the things right? Do you want to tell me that these big companies are hiring only incompetent ppl? Thank you! Oh God believe me segfaults happen all th time when trying to fix some other Bozo's mistakes. Nothing needs to be given in return fyi, it's a bug. It is wrong in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonzhunter.8506 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 30 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: Oh God believe me segfaults happen all th time when trying to fix some other Bozo's mistakes. Nothing needs to be given in return fyi, it's a bug. It is wrong in the first place. It is a bug and wrong in the first place just because you are saying this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 15 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: It is a bug and wrong in the first place just because you are saying this? It is because no other class can access their profession mechanic skills while in downstate. Indeed all of the published statements about downstate from Anet imply that only the displayed downstate skills should be available during downstate. If your stance is that rangers should be able to access their profession skills in downstate, then other professions should also have access to their profession skills while in downstate. That is what equitable and balanced game design is (note that I did not reference skill balance there, but game design balance itself). So you want to keep your F skills in downstate? Cool. Then you should also be in favor of scrapper being able to use Function Gyro on itself. If that sounds imbalanced to you, it's because it is. Rangers having access to F skills while others do not in downstate is imbalanced, obviously an oversight, and a bug to needs fixing if Anet wants to maintain anything resembling credibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonzhunter.8506 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: It is because no other class can access their profession mechanic skills while in downstate. Indeed all of the published statements about downstate from Anet imply that only the displayed downstate skills should be available during downstate. If your stance is that rangers should be able to access their profession skills in downstate, then other professions should also have access to their profession skills while in downstate. That is what equitable and balanced game design is (note that I did not reference skill balance there, but game design balance itself). So you want to keep your F skills in downstate? Cool. Then you should also be in favor of scrapper being able to use Function Gyro on itself. If that sounds imbalanced to you, it's because it is. Rangers having access to F skills while others do not in downstate is imbalanced, obviously an oversight, and a bug to needs fixing if Anet wants to maintain anything resembling credibility No other class has a pet who is part of class himself. (clones and minions are nor real pets, they are part of some specialization and builds only) "Indeed all of the published statements about downstate from Anet imply that only the displayed downstate skills should be available during downstate." - can you please link me where Anet published what are you saying? (should be is not equal with will be ) "If your stance is that rangers should be able to access their profession skills in downstate, then other professions should also have access to their profession skills while in downstate." - If I am correct Sic'Em was the only one reveal stealth skill in the game ... later they add stealth reveal to other classes too. Thank you! Edited June 3, 2021 by Dragonzhunter.8506 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 Just now, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: No other class has a pet who is part of class himself. (clones and minions are nor real pets, they are part of some specialization and builds only) That is a red herring. Just now, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: "Indeed all of the published statements about downstate from Anet imply that only the displayed downstate skills should be available during downstate." - can you please link me where Anet published what are you saying? Go RTFM. It's on the wiki for everyone to read. Just now, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: "If your stance is that rangers should be able to access their profession skills in downstate, then other professions should also have access to their profession skills while in downstate." - If I am correct Sic'Em was the only one reveal stealth skill in the game ... later they add stealth reveal to other classes too. So you're absolutely fine with a scrapper using Function Gryo on itself? Okay. Just now, Dragonzhunter.8506 said: Thank you! No problem. This spin in this thread could power a small country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonzhunter.8506 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: Go RTFM. It's on the wiki for everyone to read. I see you are not reading everything on this post. Wiki is not published by Anet! Wiki is written and maintained by the players. 2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: So you're absolutely fine with a scrapper using Function Gryo on itself? Okay. If at some point Anet will consider this, yes, why not? I am pretty sure when they decide this, they will balance the other downstate skills of other classes too. Now ranger is the only one because pet is part of class mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotejjeken.1267 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 31 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: That is a red herring. It absolutely is not a red herring, otherwise half of ranger's damage output wouldn't be centered on the pet. The pet literally IS the ranger (and literally LITERALLY in the case of soulbeast merge). I think this is where people get confused with ranger...the pet isn't just an expendable class mechanic; like calling turrets, clones, or minions 'pets' and then attempting to apply this back to ranger is a gross simplification. Therefore it's not a 'bug', it is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the class operates. But feel free to keep attempting to prove this 'bug' based on 'other classes'. At most we've discovered in this overly long topic that there are missing UI elements for those somehow unaware they can command the pet during downstate (because surely no one would try without an appropriate icon telling them it is possible). Everything else is just banter, because pet access in downstate makes perfect sense even down to theme (unless we want to start arguing rangers go mute while downed as well and cannot issue commands). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Substance E.4852 Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said: So you want to keep your F skills in downstate? Cool. Then you should also be in favor of scrapper being able to use Function Gyro on itself. If that sounds imbalanced to you, it's because it is. Rangers having access to F skills while others do not in downstate is imbalanced, obviously an oversight, and a bug to needs fixing if Anet wants to maintain anything resembling credibility Okay, cool In exchange, every other class gets a little npc that follows them around at ~300-2000 units and if it's killed, their class mechanic goes on cooldown for 15-45 seconds No more adrenaline gain, no more clones, no more initiative regeneration Fair is fair, after all 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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