Give Herald 5 man quickness

[Infusion.7149]

11 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Why does Scrapper's theme suddenly include party-wide quickness 6 years later?

Holo was only taken for DPS and then people complained about scrapper not being good in PvE when it is dominant in WvW. I was against that from the start.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Given that herald has fixed utilities on glint , you do realize it would mean nerfs for power herald right? Do you feel that it would be worth it just for PvE quickness? Why tunnel vision on one mode when revenant doesn't even have issues getting into groups?

My post isn't prescriptive and doesn't even say that I, personally, want Herald to get quickness.  My post was merely aimed at the idea that "it shouldn't be given quickness since then it would do too much."  The truth is it could be given quickness and it would be fine.  Also, if it is given quickness it wouldn't necessarily need power damage nerfs.  It could easily be forced onto/reworked into Elevated Compassion (and Shining Aspects), forcing you to not choose Forceful Persistance for the damage boost.  The damage boost minor could also be reworked into a Major if it's providing too much inherently.  But let's be honest, Power Herald isn't great right now anyway. Like REALLY not great, so I'm not going to be too upset if it gets nerfed slightly in order to give Herald more of a presence overall.  But to be clear, I don't think they would need to do that.  They can absolutely get creative. 

My personal opinion?  I don't care if they give Herald quickness specifically.  They do need to give it something to differentiate it from Renegade and the newer upcoming spec, however.  Currently, it really is just bottom of the barrel regardless of how you look at it, especially after the sustain nerfs to Rev overall last Tuesday. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Holo was only taken for DPS and then people complained about scrapper not being good in PvE when it is dominant in WvW. I was against that from the start.

I actually don't mind Scrapper getting quickness.  I've wanted that for years honestly as it's always been kitten in PvE.  They should make sure to do proper splits though in WvW/PvP, which they don't always do, I will give you that.

[Infusion.7149]

26 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I actually don't mind Scrapper getting quickness.  I've wanted that for years honestly as it's always been kitten in PvE.  They should make sure to do proper splits though in WvW/PvP, which they don't always do, I will give you that.

It wasn't terrible, the DPS was on par with reaper, spellbreaker, or tactics berserker with less involvement because you only ran one kit. People wanted more DPS on a high sustain spec, they already had it with the glass cannon change (33-35K). There was zero reason to overpower scrapper in WVW while making a class with decent DPS (38k holos) have more DPS on a higher sustain variant that happens to also have utility in the form of function gyro and superspeed. In a real scenario the margin is far smaller because scrapper has higher scholar uptime than holo.

Meanwhile thief, which only really had a 35K DPS option before May 11 unless you are running rifle (with zero cleave or actual ability to move around), had boon thief completely gutted because it is now only 5 man and usable in only a few encounters in the entire game.

Revenant is one of the classes that needs the least help in PvE right now. The only thing I can see happening that would actually be positive for the game is more might on herald facets for when you are running as a DPS. Power tempest, the other non heal might provider besides warriors with tactics notably is bad on smaller hitbox and does not provide party fury. This would make both heal quickness scrapper and chrono more usable instead of CQB/HB firebrand. In the heal scrapper scenario particularly, it covers both fury and might which are notably lacking.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Anet has a budget and amazingly they can’t spend all of it on balance.  They don’t make money purely through balance.  That doesn’t mean they don’t want higher parity between classes. The result is not the same as the philosophy or the intent. 

Except they don't need to spend their whole budget on balancing to obtain the balance target they want ... so the fact they don't achieve the balance you think we should have because of 'budget' is pretty absurd. 

 

On the other hand, there has been enough time, patches and changes made to achieve WHATEVER balance target Anet wants by now. So it's not unreasonable to conclude that non-meta builds being successful in instanced content IS evidence that a valid performance balance target has ALREADY been achieved to some significant extent.

 

Also, to reinforce that point ... the the fact that non-meta builds being successful in instanced content is a CONSTANT throughout the lifetime of this game ... what evidence do you think that suddenly it's a balance target that is no longer relevant? If anything, it's MORE likely that since this a constant and it has worked for the last 8+ years ...  it IS the target they want. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

44 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Why does Scrapper's theme suddenly include party-wide quickness 6 years later?

because that's a tool that Anet want's Scrapper to have. I mean, do you have point or is it just your MO to ask the obvious?

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It wasn't terrible, the DPS was on par with reaper, spellbreaker, or tactics berserker with less involvement because you only ran one kit. People wanted more DPS on a high sustain spec, they already had it with the glass cannon change (33-35K). There was zero reason to overpower scrapper in WVW while making a class with decent DPS (38k holos) have more DPS on a higher sustain variant that happens to also have utility in the form of function gyro and superspeed. In a real scenario the margin is far smaller because scrapper has higher scholar uptime than holo.

Meanwhile thief, which only really had a 35K DPS option before May 11 unless you are running rifle (with zero cleave or actual ability to move around), had boon thief completely gutted because it is now only 5 man and usable in only a few encounters in the entire game.

Revenant is one of the classes that needs the least help in PvE right now. The only thing I can see happening that would actually be positive for the game is more might on herald facets for when you are running as a DPS. Power tempest, the other non heal might provider besides warriors with tactics notably is bad on smaller hitbox and does not provide party fury. This would make both heal quickness scrapper and chrono more usable instead of CQB/HB firebrand. In the heal scrapper scenario particularly, it covers both fury and might which are notably lacking.

The topic isn’t “how is revenant doing versus other classes,” but “how is Herald doing versus other Elite specs.”  The answer is “not great.”  Obviously other classes lag behind in some ways too; no one is saying they can’t be buffed either.  It’s also not as if the balance team only focuses on one class at a time; they’re almost always looking at all classes holistically. With that in mind it’s 100% reasonable to discuss the shortcomings of a class even if parts of it are performing well.   
 

also, again, your WvW concerns just require proper splits and further attention. Waving around the “but WvW/PvP” card is irrelevant Imo since they’ve demonstrated its 100% feasible to buff in PvE while simultaneously nerfing in WvW/PvP.  I don’t think PvE buffs shouldn’t be done simply because of WvW/PvP concerns.  If something is overperforming in WvW/PvP it can easily be tweaked in those modes.  If Anet doesn’t properly split skills, then that can be directed to them as complaints, but shouldn’t be used as a weapon to try to further reduce PvE balance and diversity.  PvP/WvW oriented changes are half the reason classes were continually shredded in PvE up until a few years ago when they started actually splitting skills 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except they don't need to spend their whole budget on balancing to obtain the balance target they want ... so the fact they don't achieve the balance you think we should have because of 'budget' is pretty absurd. 

 

On the other hand, there has been enough time, patches and changes made to achieve WHATEVER balance target Anet wants by now. So it's not unreasonable to conclude that non-meta builds being successful in instanced content IS evidence that a valid performance balance target has ALREADY been achieved to some significant extent.

 

Also, to reinforce that point ... the the fact that non-meta builds being successful in instanced content is a CONSTANT throughout the lifetime of this game ... what evidence do you think that suddenly it's a balance target that is no longer relevant? If anything, it's MORE likely that since this a constant and it has worked for the last 8+ years ...  it IS the target they want. 

Yes, let’s completely ignore budget/man power concerns as if that doesn’t have a huge impact on game development.  Let’s also ignore the layoffs, the lagging sales for a year, the coronavirus, the shift of focus to the expansion etc. I’m sure all of those have zero affect on being able to spend money on developers to release more frequent balance patches.  They even had to cutback on their LS releases for IBS due to their shift in focus onto the expansion due to parent company monetary concerns (implied by several developers now). If they can’t even hit their target level of LS output, what makes you think they can hit their targeted balance output?  Story is the bread and butter of this game and if they’re even cutting back on that you sure as hell know they’re cutting back on areas that don’t bring in money, like balance patches. It’s also not the first time they’ve done this; it’s a many years long pattern at this point. 

 

Infrequent balance/no balance patches does not mean they’ve achieved their targeted balance.  Time spent over years does not mean they’ve achieved their targeted balance.  It’s a fallacy to assume that just because effort has been put in for years means it’s achieved the desired result 

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

because that's a tool that Anet want's Scrapper to have. I mean, do you have point or is it just your MO to ask the obvious?

 

 

 

I was responding to what you said. You said “classes are given access to boons based on theme.”  Scrapper has been around for 6 years and suddenly its theme is party-wide quickness support?  You see how that’s a weird point of view right?  And saying “cuz anet wants it to have it” goes totally against the “classes are given boons based on theme.”  No, if “anet wants it to have it” is a valid justification then it doesn’t matter what the theme is at all since Anet could just be like “I want this class to have it.”  Weird justifications you’re using here and you’ve now contradicted yourself as well. 

[Kodama.6453]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

because that's a tool that Anet want's Scrapper to have. I mean, do you have point or is it just your MO to ask the obvious?

 

 

 

Sorry, but I don't think it is true that they just hand out tools because of theme.

Sure, the tools they hand out have to be thematically appropriate for the class (hence why they gave scrapper quickness, since this boon was thematically already integrated in scrapper with applied force and the whole momentum theme it has going on).

 

But if you look at their reasoning why they made this rework:

Quote

While the Scrapper can be played as an effective healer, it hasn't had access to the offensive boons it needs to be truly valuable as a support role in group PvE content. As a result, we've seen the Scrapper get very little play outside of WvW. With this update, we're reworking the Scrapper trait Kinetic Stabilizers so that Scrappers can apply the quickness boon on up to five targets, opening up a powerful boon support role for the specialization.

 all their reasoning for this change is about scrapper's performance in PvE, how it lacks a successful role in that environment and so on. Heal scrapper, according to your reasoning, was already able to succeed in PvE end game content, yet they still say they want it to be better there.

 

Obviously, performance matters here.

this being said, I don't think that herald should get access to quickness either.

if herald needs buffing in the boon department, I would suggest to make their might application better so they can maintain 25 stacks of might on 5-10 allies permanently.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Yes, let’s completely ignore budget/man power concerns

That's my point ... I'm NOT ignoring those concerns. I AM considering that in the last 8 years, there has been enough resources and opportunities put into balancing to achieve whatever balance Anet is targeting. The fact that the game remains true for its lifetime to the concept that people can play a wide range of builds and be successful is EVIDENCE that THIS is a balancing target Anet is trying to maintain. The fact that we DON'T have content that is only completable with a narrow range of meta builds is ALSO evidence Anet is NOT balancing to meta. 

 

Weird justifications you’re using here and you’ve now contradicted yourself as well. 

 

There is no contradiction. you asked me a question, I answered it. I don't see a problem with Anet giving Scrapper quickness boon share; it's thematically relevant to the class and Anet desired to give Scrapper an offensive team support tool. Herald isn't short on team support tools, defensive and offensive. If you're point is trying to relate Scrapper's situation to Herald to justify Herald getting a quickness boon share, it's a big failure to do so because Herald is light years ahead of Scrapper in terms of team support.  

Edited June 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Sorry, but I don't think it is true that they just hand out tools because of theme.

 

I'm just going to repeat the reasons I think this isn't a good idea:

 

1. The game 'health' is not affected by Herald having 5-man quickness boon share or not. I would actually argue that expanding quickness boon share over more classes is pretty UNHEALTHY thing to happen for the game. 

2. What is meta in different kinds of content is irrelevant to why something should be changed because the game is designed around balancing on the content side of things, allowing players to choose and play how they want. 

 

I'm not arguing Anet doesn't change things only because of theme and never for performance. That's not my point. That's something I have never said. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's my point ... I'm NOT ignoring those concerns. I AM considering that in the last 8 years, there has been enough resources and opportunities put into balancing to achieve whatever balance Anet is targeting. The fact that the game remains true for its lifetime to the concept that people can play a wide range of builds and be successful is EVIDENCE that THIS is a balancing target Anet is trying to maintain. The fact that we DON'T have content that is only completable with a narrow range of meta builds is ALSO evidence Anet is NOT balancing to meta. 

 

Again, time and effort spent =/= balance target met.  It’s 100% possible (and likely) to fail to achieve a goal despite putting time and effort towards it. 
 

And honestly if you’re unable to see that Anet DOES balance around the meta despite 8 years of patch notes and justifications focused around the meta verbatim from Anet’s mouth, then I’m not going to be able to make you see that so it’s a waste of my breath to continue trying to do so 

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The topic isn’t “how is revenant doing versus other classes,” but “how is Herald doing versus other Elite specs.”  The answer is “not great.”  Obviously other classes lag behind in some ways too; no one is saying they can’t be buffed either.  It’s also not as if the balance team only focuses on one class at a time; they’re almost always looking at all classes holistically. With that in mind it’s 100% reasonable to discuss the shortcomings of a class even if parts of it are performing well.   
 

also, again, your WvW concerns just require proper splits and further attention. Waving around the “but WvW/PvP” card is irrelevant Imo since they’ve demonstrated its 100% feasible to buff in PvE while simultaneously nerfing in WvW/PvP.  I don’t think PvE buffs shouldn’t be done simply because of WvW/PvP concerns.  If something is overperforming in WvW/PvP it can easily be tweaked in those modes.  If Anet doesn’t properly split skills, then that can be directed to them as complaints, but shouldn’t be used as a weapon to try to further reduce PvE balance and diversity.  PvP/WvW oriented changes are half the reason classes were continually shredded in PvE up until a few years ago when they started actually splitting skills 

No the topic is "giving herald 5 man quickness".

Has scrapper quickness been retroactively split in May 25th hotfix patch? No. It also didn't rebalance staff mirage properly but that is a separate topic altogether.

PvE buffs should make sense, giving herald quickness makes no sense as they just gave scrapper quickness this past patch and revenant is not without viable builds regardless of if it is a power fight or condition fight.

As it is now:

Heal scrapper needs might + fury and so does StM chrono (which you chose to just disregard in my prior post because it fits your agenda); herald has the fury output but not the might and the alacrity uptime just isn't reliable because it relies on Ventari combined with Salvation traitline.
* With a heal scrapper needing might+fury as well as alacrity and producing even less DPS than healbrand due to med kit , it suffers especially in a 5 man scenario. With alacrity renegade covering 10 people if you can get sufficient might+fury from a herald then herald could be used here but more likely you run druid or tempest in the other subgroup for squads. Comp would be heal scrapper, alac renegade , StM/cQB, druid,  BS, 5x DPS. For condi fight it would be heal scrapper, staff mirage (might,fury, alac) / condi RR x2 (replace one DPS), cQB, druid, cBS, 5x DPS.
* For power quickness scrapper you'd need to pair it with alacrity , might, fury, and healing. Power quickness scrapper doesn't have that high DPS (<27K) so it isn't particularly an attractive option if you need to run healing separately as you end up with two supports that do lower damage. It's workable if paired with druid and with a renegade supplying alacrity. Comp would be power quickness scrapper, druid, StM/cQB/HB, alac renegade, BS, 5x DPS.

* In the situation of StM chrono you're missing actual healing (healing on wells is rather shoddy), not just fury+might so bolstering the herald might output and Glint healing would make it able to pair with full boon chrono (conversely bolstering might output and alacrity output would help it pair with heal scrapper) much like a druid did. This would not be a strong combination as DPS on full boon chrono is not high either (<18K). In a squad, more likely you have alacrity from renegade and heal druid paired with the chrono for might+fury.

* Of all those scenarios , upping alacrity duration while traiting salvation seems less likely because then you end up with needing to heal as you need to be in Ventari for the alacrity (i.e. you'd only pair alacrity herald with power quickness scrapper or a StM chrono that lacks alacrity) and it'd be a nightmare to play while maintaining all those boons. If herald were able to do 30K DPS and put out 25 might to and fury for 10 people, then you could replace druid when heal scrapper is used in 10 man squads as herald has assassin's presence which is more beneficial for classes that don't need spotter.

Theoretical:
Let's say herald does get quickness with no other changes. What's going to happen is you still need alacrity because alacrity won't be sufficient even if you run Salvation traitline. So people will try to end up using double revenant , but you can't really run heal renegade anymore because soulcleave was nerfed so you end up with a huge dilemma. You also can't pair it with a staff mirage really since it is not great against trash mobs at all or anywhere you use power damage typically.  Revenant is one of the least played according to gw2efficiency and pushing a double revenant meta is a horrible idea just as bad as dual chrono. It would only even be conceivable in 10 man content. Comp would be herald quickness, druid, HB/heal scrapper (must have heals for 2nd subgroup unless low damage scenario), alac renegade , BS, DPS x5. The role compression just isn't there.

Do you honestly think people will ask for herald quickness unless alacrity is improved on Salvation traitline and/or healing is not necessary to be supplied from somewhere else? (That would result in boon chrono issue were one class does all boons , but even more than that also healing.) Do you know how long it took to go from chrono+druid to healbrand+alac renegade in fractals? Unless it is as simple as pressing a button for high uptime, it won't be taken. If the quickness is tied on to a herald exclusive skill or trait it likely would only be active in Glint (rather than on True Nature), making it unwieldy unless duration is long enough so you can swap legends.
 

The only reason alacrity mirage caught on for TL+SH mainly (also works on Cairn and others) is because it is so broken, confusion proc was strong there even before staff mirage but staff mirage stacks even more confusion. Since it is stacked in a squad and the damage is so high if confusion is abused, nobody cares if you need four or five of them for alacrity uptime. Elsewhere people are more likely to still ask for alacrity renegade or condi RR , especially when there's trash mobs such as in fractals.

If you want to talk about overall classes , thief could have gotten 5 man quickness on bountiful theft. It has might+fury on Trickery traitline, while having no appreciable healing or alacrity output. Running trickery was already a large damage loss on top of required 100% boon duration. In addition, because boon thief was already an accepted provider of quickness and people had the gear for it the adoption would  be quicker. Due to the change to trickery to have a condition focus, this will not likely happen as it has both power and condi DPS covered now. Even if implemented it would not supplant cQB or even StM chrono.

All in all this suggestion doesn't seem well thought out at all. As I wrote in a prior post in this thread, just seems a kneejerk request to buff herald with a wanted boon "give herald quickness". There's no mention of :
* where you would even put the quickness to make it exclusive to herald
* the duration , recharge, and required boon duration --- if it is a low recharge then it should be split for competitive modes similar to Mantra of Potence
* what actually applies the quickness (is it a facet, f2 skill, weapon skill, trait, etc.)
* what is the counterplay if unsplit to other modes
* why is it actually necessary for the base class

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Again, time and effort spent =/= balance target met.  It’s 100% possible (and likely) to fail to achieve a goal despite putting time and effort towards it. 

Sure, it's possible but it's not likely given the amount of time and effort Anet has ALREADY spent on balancing the game in the last 8 years. ... and also for the other reasons I gave that you ignored. I mean, game isn't balanced around meta ... that's an absurd thing to even claim. if the game was balanced around meta, then it wouldn't be possible to complete instanced content with the wide range of non-meta builds  consistently throughout the lifetime of this game.

 

I get you don't like what I think and I get you don't like how the game is balanced, but that's not a reason to deny what's obviously true. Games balanced to some narrow range of 'meta' don't allow players to succeed with such a wide range of performance and build diversity that this game does. 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, it's possible but it's not likely given the amount of time and effort Anet has ALREADY spent on balancing the game in the last 8 years. ... and also for the other reasons I gave that you ignored. I mean, game isn't balanced around meta ... that's an absurd thing to even claim. if the game was balanced around meta, then it wouldn't be possible to complete instanced content with the wide range of non-meta builds  consistently throughout the lifetime of this game.

 

I get you don't like what I think and I get you don't like how the game is balanced, but that's not a reason to deny what's obviously true. Games balanced to some narrow range of 'meta' don't allow players to succeed with such a wide range of performance and build diversity that this game does. 

 

 

No one is saying you can't complete content with non-meta classes.  That's an absurd assertion.  What I am saying is that yes, they do balance around what is or isn't meta.  This is, again, verbatim from 8 years of explanations in patch notes and developer interviews.  THIS is the obvious truth

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

No the topic is "giving herald 5 man quickness".

Has scrapper quickness been retroactively split in May 25th hotfix patch? No. It also didn't rebalance staff mirage properly but that is a separate topic altogether.

PvE buffs should make sense, giving herald quickness makes no sense as they just gave scrapper quickness this past patch and revenant is not without viable builds regardless of if it is a power fight or condition fight.

As it is now:

Heal scrapper needs might + fury and so does StM chrono (which you chose to just disregard in my prior post because it fits your agenda); herald has the fury output but not the might and the alacrity uptime just isn't reliable because it relies on Ventari combined with Salvation traitline.
* With a heal scrapper needing might+fury as well as alacrity and producing even less DPS than healbrand due to med kit , it suffers especially in a 5 man scenario. With alacrity renegade covering 10 people if you can get sufficient might+fury from a herald then herald could be used here but more likely you run druid or tempest in the other subgroup for squads. Comp would be heal scrapper, alac renegade , StM/cQB, druid,  BS, 5x DPS. For condi fight it would be heal scrapper, staff mirage (might,fury, alac) / condi RR x2 (replace one DPS), cQB, druid, cBS, 5x DPS.
* For power quickness scrapper you'd need to pair it with alacrity , might, fury, and healing. Power quickness scrapper doesn't have that high DPS (<27K) so it isn't particularly an attractive option if you need to run healing separately as you end up with two supports that do lower damage. It's workable if paired with druid and with a renegade supplying alacrity. Comp would be power quickness scrapper, druid, StM/cQB/HB, alac renegade, BS, 5x DPS.

* In the situation of StM chrono you're missing actual healing (healing on wells is rather shoddy), not just fury+might so bolstering the herald might output and Glint healing would make it able to pair with full boon chrono (conversely bolstering might output and alacrity output would help it pair with heal scrapper) much like a druid did. This would not be a strong combination as DPS on full boon chrono is not high either (<18K). In a squad, more likely you have alacrity from renegade and heal druid paired with the chrono for might+fury.

* Of all those scenarios , upping alacrity duration while traiting salvation seems less likely because then you end up with needing to heal as you need to be in Ventari for the alacrity (i.e. you'd only pair alacrity herald with power quickness scrapper or a StM chrono that lacks alacrity) and it'd be a nightmare to play while maintaining all those boons. If herald were able to do 30K DPS and put out 25 might to and fury for 10 people, then you could replace druid when heal scrapper is used in 10 man squads as herald has assassin's presence which is more beneficial for classes that don't need spotter.

Theoretical:
Let's say herald does get quickness with no other changes. What's going to happen is you still need alacrity because alacrity won't be sufficient even if you run Salvation traitline. So people will try to end up using double revenant , but you can't really run heal renegade anymore because soulcleave was nerfed so you end up with a huge dilemma. You also can't pair it with a staff mirage really since it is not great against trash mobs at all or anywhere you use power damage typically.  Revenant is one of the least played according to gw2efficiency and pushing a double revenant meta is a horrible idea just as bad as dual chrono. It would only even be conceivable in 10 man content. Comp would be herald quickness, druid, HB/heal scrapper (must have heals for 2nd subgroup unless low damage scenario), alac renegade , BS, DPS x5. The role compression just isn't there.

Do you honestly think people will ask for herald quickness unless alacrity is improved on Salvation traitline and/or healing is not necessary to be supplied from somewhere else? (That would result in boon chrono issue were one class does all boons , but even more than that also healing.) Do you know how long it took to go from chrono+druid to healbrand+alac renegade in fractals? Unless it is as simple as pressing a button for high uptime, it won't be taken. If the quickness is tied on to a herald exclusive skill or trait it likely would only be active in Glint (rather than on True Nature), making it unwieldy unless duration is long enough so you can swap legends.
 

The only reason alacrity mirage caught on for TL+SH mainly (also works on Cairn and others) is because it is so broken, confusion proc was strong there even before staff mirage but staff mirage stacks even more confusion. Since it is stacked in a squad and the damage is so high if confusion is abused, nobody cares if you need four or five of them for alacrity uptime. Elsewhere people are more likely to still ask for alacrity renegade or condi RR , especially when there's trash mobs such as in fractals.

If you want to talk about overall classes , thief could have gotten 5 man quickness on bountiful theft. It has might+fury on Trickery traitline, while having no appreciable healing or alacrity output. Running trickery was already a large damage loss on top of required 100% boon duration. In addition, because boon thief was already an accepted provider of quickness and people had the gear for it the adoption would  be quicker. Due to the change to trickery to have a condition focus, this will not likely happen as it has both power and condi DPS covered now. Even if implemented it would not supplant cQB or even StM chrono.

All in all this suggestion doesn't seem well thought out at all. As I wrote in a prior post in this thread, just seems a kneejerk request to buff herald with a wanted boon "give herald quickness". There's no mention of :
* where you would even put the quickness to make it exclusive to herald
* the duration , recharge, and required boon duration --- if it is a low recharge then it should be split for competitive modes similar to Mantra of Potence
* what actually applies the quickness (is it a facet, f2 skill, weapon skill, trait, etc.)
* what is the counterplay if unsplit to other modes
* why is it actually necessary for the base class

 

I feel like you're way overthinking this.  The suggestion is clearly made to boost Herald's effectiveness in PvE so that it is MORE desirable, not that it is THE MOST desired.  It's absolutely possible to buff things without making them meta as you specifically referenced with the Druid+Chrono -> Firebrigade comp change in fractals.  Funny thing about that, I was running HB/Alac in both raids and fractals for a year before they were meta.  Why?  Because it was possible and fun and no one in my group liked running Chrono.  There's no need to make Herald "the new meta" to force a "2 revenant meta" in fractals and simply buffing Herald with quickness wouldn't replace the prevalence of HB in pugs.  HB is prevalent in pugs simply because AEGIS and STABILITY are so huge for the majority of t4/cm groups.  Herald (and Heal Herald) obviously doesn't compete with HB in that regard at all.  Buffing Herald with quickness would, however, allow private parties/guilds to choose other options for both fractals besides the very limited selection we have currently. 

Durations and how things are applied should be figured out by Anet's team and not a requirement for a suggestion to be taken seriously.  I also suggested in one of my previous posts it could be tied to/reworked into Elevated Compassion and/or Shining Aspects since neither trait is particularly attractive at the moment. 
 

[Obtena.7952]

33 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

 What I am saying is that yes, they do balance around what is or isn't meta. 

Again, if they balance around what is meta, then how does that reveal itself as how the game is created? I mean, you can SAY it's balanced around meta all you like, but it's irrelevant if the game doesn't actually WORK that way. 

 

There isn't ANYTHING obvious about the game being balanced around meta, because meta doesn't impact the content being created for the game, evident by the fact that there is a wide range of non-meta builds that can used to successfully complete instanced content. If the game was balanced around meta, that wouldn't be true ... as is the case with MANY other MMO's. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

16 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I feel like you're way overthinking this.  The suggestion is clearly made to boost Herald's effectiveness in PvE so that it is MORE desirable, not that it is THE MOST desired.  It's absolutely possible to buff things without making them meta as you specifically referenced with the Druid+Chrono -> Firebrigade comp change in fractals.  Funny thing about that, I was running HB/Alac in both raids and fractals for a year before they were meta.  Why?  Because it was possible and fun and no one in my group liked running Chrono.  There's no need to make Herald "the new meta" to force a "2 revenant meta" in fractals and simply buffing Herald with quickness wouldn't replace the prevalence of HB in pugs.  HB is prevalent in pugs simply because AEGIS and STABILITY are so huge for the majority of t4/cm groups.  Herald (and Heal Herald) obviously doesn't compete with HB in that regard at all.  Buffing Herald with quickness would, however, allow private parties/guilds to choose other options for both fractals besides the very limited selection we have currently. 

Durations and how things are applied should be figured out by Anet's team and not a requirement for a suggestion to be taken seriously.  I also suggested in one of my previous posts it could be tied to/reworked into Elevated Compassion and/or Shining Aspects since neither trait is particularly attractive at the moment. 
 

Am I overthinking or are you guys underthinking it? It's probably you underthinking the implications of the change proposed. It has nothing to do with meta , it has more to do with boon coverage of standard boons.

In fact, this thread is almost as bad as the ranger and necro forums where people only care about balance if it benefits their class. It's especially bad when people only play one class or have a severe bias for one class.

There has been no mention of anything solid that is an actual proposal , just "give herald quickness". I'm not sure why you would want quickness on Elevated Compassion which is a passive trait. That's even more mindless than spamming 1, upkeeping facets and spamming quickness at the same time, what a joke...

Running shining aspects means your might output will be severely hampered, which means if you need an alacrity renegade for alacrity then it would not be usable in 5 man scenarios because you'd lack might and you'd need a druid or tempest for might in 10 man.

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

21 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Am I overthinking or are you guys underthinking it? It's probably you underthinking the implications of the change proposed. It has nothing to do with meta , it has more to do with boon coverage of standard boons.

No you're definitely overthinking. I love the detailed analysis you do (partially incomplete imo, but I don't want to get into the specifics because that will literally never end), but it's really not as complicated as you're thinking it is.  This game is not as complicated as you're making it out to be.   Just having access to quickness opens up possibilities that weren't there before.  It can easily get paired with many different classes to cover might and everything else appropriately.  Not everyone runs the meta builds listed on Snowcrows or metabattle; there are far more actual possibilities than listed on any of the GW2 build sites. 
 

24 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There has been no mention of anything solid that is an actual proposal , just "give herald quickness". I'm not sure why you would want quickness on Elevated Compassion which is a passive trait. That's even more mindless than spamming 1, upkeeping facets and spamming quickness at the same time, what a joke...

Running shining aspects means your might output will be severely hampered, which means if you need an alacrity renegade for alacrity then it would not be usable in 5 man scenarios because you'd lack might and you'd need a druid or tempest for might in 10 man.

 

This is why I don't play the "let me design specifics of the the class" game.  It gets nitpicked to death in the same exact way everyone nitpicks the hell out of everything Anet does.  This is why it's better to just make the suggestion and let Anet figure out the implementation/numbers if they want to do it.  Let's be real, the VAST majority of suggestions made on the forums will never make it into the game, whether they be for nerfs, buffs, or keeping things the same.  You, me, and everyone else on here is generally crying into the void with little chance of anything actually happening because of it.  

And if you read closely you'd notice I said "could be tied to/REWORKED into Elevated Compassion" in my previous post.  That doesn't mean Elevated Compassion would necessarily stay exactly the same as it was before.  And Shining Aspects having a trade off (Might v.s. Quickness) isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Trade-offs make choices within the game interesting, especially if done well. 

Again, not the game designer and it's better that Anet figures out the specifics if they're going to implement it.  Then you can complain at them about actual changes instead of my vague theoretical ones. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

46 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, if they balance around what is meta, then how does that reveal itself as how the game is created? I mean, you can SAY it's balanced around meta all you like, but it's irrelevant if the game doesn't actually WORK that way. 

 

There isn't ANYTHING obvious about the game being balanced around meta, because meta doesn't impact the content being created for the game, evident by the fact that there is a wide range of non-meta builds that can used to successfully complete instanced content. If the game was balanced around meta, that wouldn't be true ... as is the case with MANY other MMO's. 

I think you're using a different understanding of the phrase "balance around" than I am.  Most of Anet's changes are geared towards changing/altering meta builds or buffing underperforming classes to become more competitive/have higher parity with other classes.  This is factual and found in their patch note explanations.  However, what I think you're getting at is that the content itself isn't "balanced around" using the most top tier builds at optimal performance.  This is true as well.  In a sense we're both correct then; the game's content balance is designed in a way that doesn't require top tier meta builds to succeed, however, Anet focuses most of their changes (for 8 years) towards the top end or under-performing aspects (i.e. balancing around what is actively meta). 

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I think you're using a different understanding of the phrase "balance around" than I am.  Most of Anet's changes are geared towards changing/altering meta builds or buffing underperforming classes to become more competitive/have higher parity with other classes.  This is factual and found in their patch note explanations.  However, what I think you're getting at is that the content itself isn't "balanced around" using the most top tier builds at optimal performance.  This is true as well.  In a sense we're both correct then; the game's content balance is designed in a way that doesn't require top tier meta builds to succeed, however, Anet focuses most of their changes (for 8 years) towards the top end or under-performing aspects (i.e. balancing around what is actively meta). 

While this is agreeable and a fair assessment, I'm still questioning the reasoning given to give Herald a quickness boon share. Again, while there are instances in patch notes where Anet indicates they are making changes because they want to see more play for a certain build, we have no reason to think that's relevant here or that 5 man quickness boon share is THE way to accomplish that. 

 

Just because they can and just because it's an improvement ... these are not valid reasons to make a change because EVERY buff is justified by these reasons. Again, it's arguable this is healthy for the game; I think it's the opposite. It's also arguable that Herald doesn't 'compete' with Renegade ... we can't possibly know how Anet is assessing what classes they want to see improved builds for so any claim Herald needs to 'compete' better with Herald is just self-gratifying conclusions.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Shaogin.2679]

Yeah, honestly it made no sense for Renegade to become some boon support spec when Herald already existed.

[Telgum.6071]

On 6/1/2021 at 2:49 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

Revenant is one of the classes that needs the least help in PvE right now. The only thing I can see happening that would actually be positive for the game is more might on herald facets for when you are running as a DPS. Power tempest, the other non heal might provider besides warriors with tactics notably is bad on smaller hitbox and does not provide party fury. This would make both heal quickness scrapper and chrono more usable instead of CQB/HB firebrand. In the heal scrapper scenario particularly, it covers both fury and might which are notably lacking.

This thread and this hole circle jerk about revenant being bad is more about Herald than Revenant. As revenant you are very good in every single game mode (prove me wrong), but you are forced to go renegade.

People wants some sort of herald alternative, I don't know why when renegade is so good and can develop well as pdps, cdps, alacren and even healer when requested. I totally prefer the things the way they are now over a most than possible nerf on renegade because herald got a buff, because to compete against other quickness classes herald would need buffs, not just quickness.

 

Just do what warriors/thieves do: if you want to play support, roll a more support oriented class and wait to see what's coming with the new expansion. Filling this forum with rivers of tears because you don't like renegade will most likely scare the new players interested in revenant.

[vilesoldier.9826]

10 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

People wants some sort of herald alternative, I don't know why when renegade is so good and can develop well as pdps, cdps, alacren and even healer when requested

It's almost like the majority of Rev population never wanted this spec to exist in the first place 🤔

[Telgum.6071]

5 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

It's almost like the majority of Rev population never wanted this spec to exist in the first place 🤔

Sorry but I see more renegades that heralds in open world where meta means nothing and you use whatever you want, so I really doubt what you are saying. This subforum is not representative of "the majority of Rev population".