Ranger feels decrepit, outdated and abandoned.

[Panncakez.1290]

I know ranger calss dev has been a meme for, probably, the entirety of GW2, but I've came back after another long pause of about 6 months - and (surprise!) nothing changed . The bugs are still there, class is still quite selfish on boon distribution (unless you're a druid healer, I guess), there's still no place for ranger in proper WvW zergs due to how impenetrable the zergs are to projectiles. Traps are a joke, I still do not understand what constitued the "throwable" function to be pruned.

And the bloody Beastmode is so functionally bad:

- Touched a puddle of water with your toe? You get out of beastmode, also - your pet is now bugged, until you wait out 10s cd for touching water and re-enter Beastmode.

- Did you just got frozen by Fraenir (or anything similar)? Get out of beastmode and have a 10s delay in your dps window.

I'd rather have swappable soul-pet and permanent, non-exitable soulbeast mode instead of constantly stumbling over poorly implemented system (soulbeast) that was made as a bandaid for an poor, outdated and MANDATORY system of having a pet and trading personal power for having it.

 

P.S. Yes, this is a rant.

 

[Pablo.3259]

Actually there are some improvements

Now scrappers cleanse have a 2seconds internal cooldown per target to convert ranger imobilization into 4sec resistance ( if they have high concentration ).

[Aamu.3952]

Not to mention the mandatory green fart cloud that still doesn't have a client-side toggle option - kind of culls enjoyment for character design on my main.

 

Swappable soul-pets are a good idea for an elite spec. The system was already in place with Revenant stances prior to PoF. Combine Soulbeast and rev stances and you have a perfectly functional implementation of a petless ranger. Hopefully the next expac can deliver a petless ranger take - as playing truly petless on ranger would probably be the single biggest thing to differentiate and deliver on what elite spec is supposed to be; a fresh way to play your class.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Aamu.3952

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, Panncakez.1290 said:

class is still quite selfish on boon distribution (unless you're a druid healer, I guess)

 

Really? Core have the ability to provide swiftness, fury, prot, vigor, regeneration and some amount of might with ease to a 5 man group, yet it is "selfish on boon distribution" for you? What exactly would it take to not be "selfish", because I struggle to see a profession out there that's not "selfish on boon distribution" by these standards?

[Obtena.7952]

Don't like Ranger ... there are eight other classes to play. Sounds more like a l2p issues going on here, since many of the things OP complains about don't make sense. 

 

Complaining about reflects in WvW zergs? You are aware you have melee weapons EXACTLY for that reason correct? Again, the QQ about choosing a pet class ... and complaining about pet management. Classic stuff. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Panncakez.1290]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Don't like Ranger ... there are eight other classes to play. Sounds more like a l2p issues going on here, since many of the things OP complains about don't make sense. 

 

Complaining about reflects in WvW zergs? You are aware you have melee weapons EXACTLY for that reason correct? Again, the QQ about choosing a pet class ... and complaining about pet management. Classic stuff. 

Great job ignoring the terrible pet ai, it's "leash" and awful pathfinding, the soulbeast mode bugs, etc. etc. Pitiful deflection of "l2p issue" when not once in ~6 years of visiting WvW have I seen anyone looking for a "melee ranger" to join their zerg instead of, probably, any other class. Classic stuff indeed.

[frareanselm.1925]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Don't like Ranger ... there are eight other classes to play. Sounds more like a l2p issues going on here, since many of the things OP complains about don't make sense. 

 

Complaining about reflects in WvW zergs? You are aware you have melee weapons EXACTLY for that reason correct? Again, the QQ about choosing a pet class ... and complaining about pet management. Classic stuff. 

Fighting melee with the ranger in front of an enemy zerg is like puting yourself in front of a train, melee ranger attacks are good for skirmishing, roaming, not for attacking zergs.

[Kodama.6453]

58 minutes ago, Panncakez.1290 said:

Great job ignoring the terrible pet ai, it's "leash" and awful pathfinding, the soulbeast mode bugs, etc. etc. Pitiful deflection of "l2p issue" when not once in ~6 years of visiting WvW have I seen anyone looking for a "melee ranger" to join their zerg instead of, probably, any other class. Classic stuff indeed.

Honestly, I think the zerg stuff has more to do with stigma (majority of people think ranger has no use there, so they don't want them).

The stances from soulbeast can be quite powerful and there is a trait to share them, yet soulbeasts are frowned on in zergs.

 

I mean, Dolyak stance is an uncleansable protection+resolution, plus a slightly worse resistance (immunity to movement impairing conditions).

Bear stance cleanses tons of conditions from you and allies while healing them as well.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Panncakez.1290 said:

Great job ignoring the terrible pet ai, it's "leash" and awful pathfinding, the soulbeast mode bugs, etc. etc. Pitiful deflection of "l2p issue" when not once in ~6 years of visiting WvW have I seen anyone looking for a "melee ranger" to join their zerg instead of, probably, any other class. Classic stuff indeed.

Again ... you choose to play a pet class ... then complain about pet mechanics ... after 8 years of playing that class. That's a BIG 🙄. Can't play in a zerg with a melee Ranger even though playing melee in a zerg is pretty much the easiest way to play WvW ever? Sounds like a l2p issue from here. 

 

Answer is obvious to me what you should be doing here. I mean, you said this was a rant ... so what do you want? Wait, hold on ... are you one of these people that rants then expects everyone else to decipher that rant, treat you like you have something useful to say and start some revolution that ends in a fix to the thing you were complaining about? Sounds like a l2f issue (l2f = learn to forum)

Edited June 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

19 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again ... you choose to play a pet class ... then complain about pet mechanics ... after 8 years of playing that class. That's a BIG 🙄. Can't play in a zerg with a melee Ranger even though playing melee in a zerg is pretty much the easiest way to play WvW ever? Sounds like a l2p issue from here. 

 

Answer is obvious to me what you should be doing here. I mean, you said this was a rant ... so what do you want? Wait, hold on ... are you one of these people that rants then expects everyone else to decipher that rant, treat you like you have something useful to say and start some revolution that ends in a fix to the thing you were complaining about? Sounds like a l2f issue (l2f = learn to forum)

 

How in the world did you get 7k posts...oh wait...stuff like this...

 

But yeah, ranger is super buggy.  The beastmode thing annoys me as well, in WvW always have to make sure to be unmerged prior to going into bay or other body of water or face a 10s CD for no reason.  

[Panncakez.1290]

43 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again ... you choose to play a pet class ... then complain about pet mechanics ... after 8 years of playing that class. That's a BIG 🙄. Can't play in a zerg with a melee Ranger even though playing melee in a zerg is pretty much the easiest way to play WvW ever? Sounds like a l2p issue from here. 

 

Answer is obvious to me what you should be doing here. I mean, you said this was a rant ... so what do you want? Wait, hold on ... are you one of these people that rants then expects everyone else to decipher that rant, treat you like you have something useful to say and start some revolution that ends in a fix to the thing you were complaining about? Sounds like a l2f issue (l2f = learn to forum)

Yeah, I see, there's no point talking to you. Have a good whatever.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Panncakez.1290 said:

Yeah, I see, there's no point talking to you. Have a good whatever.

Well there is, but you made a rant thread so you get the obvious answers to your problems. Again, if you don't like how Ranger works because of whatever litany of issues you have ... there are 8 other classes to play that don't have all those problems. I guess the obvious question here is: How have you not found the solution to your problem yet? Seems like a l2p issue to me. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[knite.1542]

3 hours ago, Panncakez.1290 said:

Yeah, I see, there's no point talking to you. Have a good whatever.

Probably a good call.

 

Either way, Ranger is definitely far from a meme. It is an extremely strong class.

[Pablo.3259]

It's funny how in WvW people hate having ranger and thief in most of their squad

and when you are in the forum it's suddenly a Fairy tale.

 

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Pablo.3259 said:

It's funny how in WvW people hate having ranger and thief in most of their squad

and when you are in the forum it's suddenly a Fairy tale.

 

 

 

The forums ARE a fairy tale. 

 

PvP section believes pets are the most OP thing to ever exist on a yearly basis since game launch.

 

WvW section believes LB is the most OP thing to ever exist on a yearly basis since game launch.  Sometimes they swap over to 'ancient seeds hurt me' but that seems more rare than the LB complaining. 

 

Ranger section has random off the wall topics like downstate is 'bugged' because pet swap is useable and 1K gold challenges over meme builds (celestial druid lolol).  

 

The reality is, ranger isn't wanted in PvP comps and in WvW it loses what it's good at (roaming) to a myriad of things (staff mirage, daredevil, etc.) and isn't useable at all in group content over 5-10.  

 

But yeah, we should all get melee weapons and L2P according to certain people...😂

[anduriell.6280]

14 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Honestly, I think the zerg stuff has more to do with stigma (majority of people think ranger has no use there, so they don't want them).

The stances from soulbeast can be quite powerful and there is a trait to share them, yet soulbeasts are frowned on in zergs.

 

I mean, Dolyak stance is an uncleansable protection+resolution, plus a slightly worse resistance (immunity to movement impairing conditions).

Bear stance cleanses tons of conditions from you and allies while healing them as well.

I do agree with this statement, at this point i do think ranger has an strong stigma against it in WvW zerg. 

I also think stances were a great chance for the soulbeast to shine, however we have to admit a 4 seconds buff is not that long to be noticeable by the player. Even the heals at 3 seconds. Most players won't even realized your Bear Stance saved them. 

 

That's why i think Leader of the pack should share the 100% of the stance duration with the friendlies. I would also normalize all stances to 8 seconds in all gamemodes and remove the extra duration from the GM. 

 

Leader of the pack could reduce the Stance CD in 2 seconds for each friendly affected as such the trait becomes a real support oriented trait.The pain point with that trait is if youa re using stances and  you don't use it they do not last long enough for a dueller to be useful. 

Another small changes i would do: 

• To move the damage reduction from Dolyak to Bear,
• Change the Dolyak to 40s in all gamemodes (including sPvP),
• Griphon to additionaly stunbreak and give fury instead of might
• Vulture to apply bleeds additionaly to poison
• Moa and OWP would be nerfed because of the  50% less duration which is the nerf they needed originally. Bear, dolyak, vulture  would have an small nerf as well from 9s to 8s total. 
• Moa to apply increased 50% boon duration in all gamemodes. 

OWP would go back to the 60s CD in PVE. 

 

Also as QoL, A friendly affected by the stance should have the same animation as the Soulbeast (the animal thing) so the players know they are been affected by an stance and act accordingly. 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by anduriell.6280
corrections, added QoL paragraph

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I do agree with this statement, at this point i do think ranger has an strong stigma against it in WvW zerg. 

I also think stances were a great chance for the soulbeast to shine, however we have to admit a 4 seconds buff is not that long to be noticeable by the player. Even the heals at 3 seconds. Most players won't even realized your Bear Stance saved them. 

 

That's why i think Leader of the pack should share the 100% of the stance duration with the friendlies. I would also normalize all stances to 8 seconds in all gamemodes and remove the extra duration from the GM. 

 

Leader of the pack could reduce the Stance CD in 2 seconds for each friendly affected as such the trait becomes a real support oriented trait.The pain point with that trait is if youa re using stances and  you don't use it they do not last long enough for a dueller to be useful. 

Another small changes i would do: 

• To move the damage reduction from Dolyak to Bear,
• Change the Dolyak to 40s in all gamemodes (including sPvP),
• Griphon to additionaly stunbreak and give fury instead of might
• Vulture to apply bleeds additionaly to poison
• Moa and OWP would be nerfed because of the  50% less duration which is the nerf they needed originally. Bear, dolyak, vulture  would have an small nerf as well from 9s to 8s total. 
• Moa to apply increased 50% boon duration in all gamemodes. 

OWP would go back to the 60s CD in PVE. 

 

Also as QoL, A friendly affected by the stance should have the same animation as the Soulbeast (the animal thing) so the players know they are been affected by an stance and act accordingly. 

 

 

Making all stances 8 seconds duration sounds a bit concerning, tbh.

 

Bear stance cleanses 2 conditions per second, with 8 seconds duration it would cleanse 16 conditions per ally affected (cleansing a total of 80 conditions), then it will also heal for 408 (base without healing power) for every condition cleansed. This is a potential healing for 6528 for every ally (+almost 5k healing for the soulbeast themselves, so the soulbeast heals up to a total of 11,5k?!), without investing anything in healing power! And then on top you want to move the uncleansable protection+resolution there, with 8 seconds duration?

 

I don't think you really thought this through. 

Bear stance would become the most OP healing skill in the game, by far.

 

And there are other concerning points. Gryphon stance shouldn't get a stunbreak unless you are willing to give up the stunbreak from Dolyak stance, since all elite specs get 1 stunbreak in their new utility skills, not more. Moa stance with 8 seconds of duration and 50% boon duration boni would make boon spam too easy once again, they recently nerfed PoP because there was too much boon coverage, I don't see them paddling back with this Moa stance buff.

 

Stances are already quite powerful, we don't need to absolutely break them beyond belief.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[anduriell.6280]

38 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Making all stances 8 seconds duration sounds a bit concerning, tbh.

 

Bear stance cleanses 2 conditions per second, with 8 seconds duration it would cleanse 16 conditions per ally affected (cleansing a total of 80 conditions), then it will also heal for 408 (base without healing power) for every condition cleansed. This is a potential healing for 6528 for every ally (+almost 5k healing for the soulbeast themselves, so the soulbeast heals up to a total of 11,5k?!), without investing anything in healing power! And then on top you want to move the uncleansable protection+resolution there, with 8 seconds duration?

 

I don't think you really thought this through. 

Bear stance would become the most OP healing skill in the game, by far

 

Stances are already quite powerful, we don't need to absolutely break them beyond belief.

Your point contain many flawled logic points. 

 

When traited all stances (except bear) have a duration of 9 seconds. So that change would be effective a nerf. In case of OWP(12) and Moa(15) it  is a big nerf. 

All stances are at 30s Cooldown, this is important as to calculate the impact of a full stances effect in a given situation.

 

Bear stance with a 30s CD and 6s duration is underpowered compared to other heals. Troll Unguent having shorted CD last 8 seconds and it is not strongly deppendent on the condition spam. This stance not only needs the damage reduction from dolyak but also an extended duration. 

 

In squads combat  5K healing in time span  of 8s is nothing compared to what other classes can do, being able to heal more than that amount in 2-3 seconds. Same goes for the cleansing. Medic enginner can definitely heal more than that in 8 seconds. 

 

There is nowhere where it is said an "specialization can have only 1 stun break".  So there should not be any issue to provide a second  stunbreak to 30s CD stance and Soulebast should carry active deffenses if it is supposed to stay in squad. In fact Soulbeast was originaly designed with more than one stunbreak in their kit with the archetype skill and the trait unstoppable union, this should has been added when the Archetype skill got a CD nerf and the trait got the effect removed. 

 

About the moa boon duration thing i think that stance should do something else instead boon duration, i find that unispiring and boring. But if that is what is supposed to do increasing the boon duration does not increase the boon spam, boon spam is boon spam, not how long the boons last. 

 

Most Stances are fine when traited and not that strong for the soulbeast and underpowered for allies. Some stances are underpowered other are overtunned. This normalization of durations should fix that. 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Your point contain many flawled logic points. 

 

When traited all stances (except bear) have a duration of 9 seconds. So that change would be effective a nerf. In case of OWP(12) and Moa(15) it  is a big nerf. 

All stances are at 30s Cooldown, this is important as to calculate the impact of a full stances effect in a given situation.

 

Bear stance with a 30s CD and 6s duration is underpowered compared to other heals. Troll Unguent having shorted CD last 8 seconds and it is not strongly deppendent on the condition spam. This stance not only needs the damage reduction from dolyak but also an extended duration. 

 

In squads combat  5K healing in time span  of 8s is nothing compared to what other classes can do, being able to heal more than that amount in 2-3 seconds. Same goes for the cleansing. Medic enginner can definitely heal more than that in 8 seconds. 

 

There is nowhere where it is said an "specialization can have only 1 stun break".  So there should not be any issue to provide a second  stunbreak to 30s CD stance and Soulebast should carry active deffenses if it is supposed to stay in squad. In fact Soulbeast was originaly designed with more than one stunbreak in their kit with the archetype skill and the trait unstoppable union, this should has been added when the Archetype skill got a CD nerf and the trait got the effect removed. 

 

About the moa boon duration thing i think that stance should do something else instead boon duration, i find that unispiring and boring. But if that is what is supposed to do increasing the boon duration does not increase the boon spam, boon spam is boon spam, not how long the boons last. 

 

Most Stances are fine when traited and not that strong for the soulbeast and underpowered for allies. Some stances are underpowered other are overtunned. This normalization of durations should fix that. 

 

In all fairness, I think you are the one with many flawed logic points here.

 

Yes, for the soulbeast personally, the stances are nerfed. For 4 other allies getting the benefit, they are buffed, heavily.

Also I don't know if you are downplaying the numbers I provided on purpose, or if that was a genuine mistake. The healing is not 5k. It is 6,5k, without any healing power investment.

 

Yes, other classes can heal more than 6,5k.... by using multiple skills. Show me one single ability of another class, which heals 6,5k without having to invest a single point in healing power and by just using this skill once. Hint, there isn't any. And that is not even accounting that the soulbeast himself heals for 11,5k without healing power investment! There is just one healing skill coming close to this healing, which is AED if you trigger it (taking lethal damage). And AED just works on the engineer, not on allies as well.

 

Same goes for the cleanses, btw. This skill cleanses all by itself 16 conditions from 5 allies with a single usage. There is no other cleansing ability coming even close to this.

 

To take your scrapper example, yes, scrapper has many cleanses. Because they take multiple cleanses. Fumigate cleanses 5 conditions on 5 targets.... this is not even 1/3 of the cleansing you suggest for bear stance here (which also serves as a massive heal). Another cleansing ability scrapper takes is purge gyro, which, once again, cleanses 5 conditions on 5 allies. 1/3 of the cleansing of bear stance once again.

 

Bear stance would outcleanse these 2 abilities combined, on top of it's strong healing capabilities. You want to sell this as balanced. Yes, scrapper outcleanses this single skill, by taking more cleanses, like also having cleanse on med kit and taking the grandmaster trait which makes protection application cleanse conditions. But just because an entire build can outcleanse this one skill you suggest here doesn't mean that your suggestion is not ridiculously overpowered.

 

About stunbreaks: I didn't say an elite spec just has 1 stunbreak, I said each elite spec gets 1 stunbreak in their new utility skills.

There is one exception of this, berserker has technically 2 stunbreaks with outrage and head butt, but I think this is because head butt also is a self stun. So you are just breaking out of a stun.... to get stunned again. So we can't truly call this one a stunbreak, especially since you also can't prevent the self stun with stability, since the skill removes all stability before it applies the self stun.

 

Literally all other elite specs have exactly 1 stunbreak in their new utility skills.

You can look it up in the wiki.

 

Also how can you come up with the conclusion that boon spam doesn't get stronger with more boon duration buffs? More boon duration means it is easier to keep boons up permanently, so we once again have big blobs which will just keep up all boons in existence permanently. How can someone deny that boon duration is a factor when it comes to boon spam???????

[Dadnir.5038]

6 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Yes, other classes can heal more than 6,5k.... by using multiple skills. Show me one single ability of another class, which heals 6,5k without having to invest a single point in healing power and by just using this skill once.

 

You're on shacky ground here... Signet of resolve (guardian) -> 8k (35s CD), Natural healing (Spellbreaker) -> 8.5k (25s CD), Troll onguent (Ranger) -> 8k (30s CD, over time), Sand flare (Scourge) -> 8k (30s CD, I'm stretching things here, 'cause I add heal and barrier together), Channeled vigor (Daredevil) -> 7.3k (30s, must have full endurance), Ether feast (mesmer) -> 7.5k (25s CD, need 3 clones)

 

It doesn't invalidate the fact that soulbeast's heal is already quite powerful, but... chosing 6.5k as the base wasn't the brightest idea.

[Kodama.6453]

Just now, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

You're on shacky ground here... Signet of resolve (guardian) -> 8k (35s CD), Natural healing (Spellbreaker) -> 8.5k (25s CD), Troll onguent (Ranger) -> 8k (30s CD, over time), Sand flare (Scourge) -> 8k (30s CD, I'm stretching things here, 'cause I add heal and barrier together), Channeled vigor (Daredevil) -> 7.3k (30s, must have full endurance), Ether feast (mesmer) -> 7.5k (25s CD, need 3 clones)

 

It doesn't invalidate the fact that soulbeast's heal is already quite powerful, but... chosing 6.5k as the base wasn't the brightest idea.

I meant that this skill heals other players for 6,5k without healing power, my friend.

With his suggestion, bear stance would heal the soulbeast himself for 11,5k and 4 surrounding allies for 6,5k. And there isn't a single skill which heals allies (not yourself, ALLIES) for 6,5k if you have no healing power.

[Dadnir.5038]

Just now, Kodama.6453 said:

I meant that this skill heals other players for 6,5k without healing power, my friend.

With his suggestion, bear stance would heal the soulbeast himself for 11,5k and 4 surrounding allies for 6,5k. And there isn't a single skill which heals allies (not yourself, ALLIES) for 6,5k if you have no healing power.

Oh... Guardian's elite signet? No healing power -> heal to full (Thanks Anet it got a long CD and a long cast time). 

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Oh... Guardian's elite signet? No healing power -> heal to full (Thanks Anet it got a long CD and a long cast time). 

Ok, that is a legit one. As you mention, long cooldown and cast time, but yeah, it heals over 6,5k to allies. Still think that healing that much on a single skill which would also cleanse 16 conditions from 5 allies (80 conditions in total) on 30 seconds cd is ridiculously broken.

 

Not to mention that he also wants to put the 33% damage reduction from dolyak stance onto bear stance as well. This is one of the most insane suggestions I have read in years.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Ok, that is a legit one. As you mention, long cooldown and cast time, but yeah, it heals over 6,5k to allies. Still think that healing that much on a single skill which would also cleanse 16 conditions from 5 allies (80 conditions in total) on 30 seconds cd is ridiculously broken.

 

Not to mention that he also wants to put the 33% damage reduction from dolyak stance onto bear stance as well. This is one of the most insane suggestions I have read in years.

 

True...

[anduriell.6280]

@Kodama.6453 more flawled logic from you and you keep moving the goal post. now is not 5K but the 6.5k the soulbeast can get from healing.

 

other classes Baseline values: 

Natural_Healing 11.6k removing 7 conditions. the boon lost provides Attacker's_Insight_(effect) so it's a draw. 25s

A.E.D. 12k, 30s

you play engineer there is not excuse there. i could look for more but i think with those 2 should be enough already.

 

Bear requires to be under condition spam or it will heal poorly, against power damage builds  just heals 4.5k, so it is even more restricitive  than AED.

 

Discussing bear or soulbeast can group cleanse or group heal more than other classes is absurd  and i will not engage.

 

Even with the changes i propose the group heal and support would be in the avergae suportish line and it would not be a replacement for constant healing\cleansing classes as an scrapper or a tempest, but more as a burst help in specific moments.

 

And due to the chaotic nature of the zerg combat and the small AoE radius needed to balance the impact of the skills,   it needs the reduced cooldowm for friendly afffected by the stance

Edited June 24, 2021 by anduriell.6280