Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not really. It's not the player skill that they test, but group organization (and time management). As far as skill goes, most of the raids are not that hard at all. By the time i had the first set and was working on the next two, i was doing the fights while trying not to go asleep - i could easily disengage my mind and let it go on auto, and it was still okay. Nothing like you have to deal with in PvP, for example. What was the problem was to keep the group together, and having to dedicate most of my playing time to raids (not only clear, but also training, and retraining when some members of the group had to be replaced) with next to no time left for actual fun.

Well that's interesting.    You say they're mechanically easy, yet also decry that it's too hard to find a group while at the same time saying player skill isn't a  factor.  Make up your mind.  Are raids too easy or too hard for the general populace?  Also that second line " By the time i had the first set and was working on the next two, i was doing the fights while trying not to go asleep" would have been rectified if ANet added more bosses.  You're burning out on the same 25 encounters that have been available for the past 3 years.  You're self admitting that this content is easy for you because you've spent so much time on it.  This is like me saying SAB trib mode is easy to someone who's never done that content before while at the same time owning all King Toad and Storm Wizard skins.  You still had to learn the encounters, how to deal with the mechanics either with class abilities or in the designed way. You still had to organize groups to take d own the encounters.  Don't discount your early experience because you don't like raids now.

 

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I wasn't. But then, it was not the PvP part that was a problem, but merely having access to the relevant parts of the map, and my server tended to do quite good in matchups, with a lot of options to go even for the enemy garrisons. Now, those on the servers that weren;t that good, and often ended up week after week after week getting the same color in the matchups (and so no access to the parts of the map they haven;t been to yet)? They really had it hard.

 

Well, I'd dig up the posts, but PvP & being unable to get the locations is precisely why it was changed.  You could either wait a week and pray your color changed to what you needed, transfer to another server that was the color you needed, or, what I did, buy a commander tag and brute force it.  Rally a squad and smash through doors.  It encouraged me to take initiative and force the desired outcome.  People will flock to tags and, back then, organized guild groups were rare and  the sorts that could take down a map queue blob were even fewer.  If I'm honest, weak servers aren't a problem.  That's a coverage issue and the people playing at 5 AM in US central on a weekday because it's their 5PM wherever they are, is more of a problem with them.  But also, 5AM US Central had most servers asleep back then other than the top 3 with coverage at those hours so a group of 5-10 players could take a tower.  The complaints were the same unwillingness to work towards a goal.  Work that didn't involve getting it all for free.

 

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No. It is actually about over two years of doing something that ultimately i felt was destroying my fun in the game. Unlike you, I simply do not wish the same experience on others.

 

So you admit you don't like them and are trying to warn others not to play them because you don't like them?  I'm sorry, what?  What happens when players get bored of the open world?  There's instanced content, but people like you have scared them away from it with their own personal distaste of such content.
 

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So, you'd want to reward the same group of players with a second set, while most of the players will still have to do without? I certainly hope the devs won't make that mistake again.

Yes.  Strikes will have that tiered system everyone's been asking raids to have if ANet builds them correctly for EoD.  They'll likely have  easy mode (Story), normal mode (Strike encounter), and variations of hard mode with the Challenge Mode.  You sound like you'd have a problem with Fractals if ANet added another tier beyond T4 that had legendary armor as one of its rewards.
 

  

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, the armors are the only interesting and positive thing about the raids.

 

And yet, notice, that it does not make anyone think of raids any better. There's a reason why on efficiency there are visible cutoffs at 150 (one set) and 750 (three sets) LI. Even to many players that did Raids they were nothing more than an uninteresting legendary armor farm with no other value to it.

Mostly because, by the time you get 650 LI, all the gold you'd need for the armor, etc., you'll have all the achievements, skins, and minis from raids leaving them as basically a farm with bosses you've likely done dozens if not hundreds of times by this point.  If raids had more wings, I guarantee you people would f lock to them. There was a huge resurgence in raid interest when wing 7 came out.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

19 hours ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

So its about the look, not the legendary. Thats hypocritical, because personally, it could be plain jane set legendary and I would be happy. Because the fact is legendary sets come with major quality of life issues that should be available to all. I dont want your envoy set I dont even like the look. Its not about the look for me its about the QoL. Not about vanity.

Yeah.  You know how GW2's endgame is fashion, right?

Did you forget that?

It's not a gear treadmill that never ends.

It's all about fashion, skins, outfits, emotes, flashy things you can wear, practical things you can show off.  It's why mount skins are so popular to sell and any content that rewards skins has a ton of people going for them.  So yes, I do want envoy armor skins to stay where they are; in raids.  If you want other forms of legendary armor, chalk up a plan with the same amount of effort in gold, in grind, or in time that every other legendary armor set is and  I'll have no problem with it also having its own, unique skin.  At the end of the day, legendary armor should require a big amount of effort.  Weapons do, trinkets do,

 

19 hours ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

Theres no life in it, its boring. Why cant people understand its so much more fun to travel the world on a massive journey killing different things and collecting ,rather than go into a fract that is a small static zone. No story no nothing just boring. I made a comparison before between skyscale and griffon and when I said griffon was a journey and skyscale a mindless grind thats what I mean. Griffon make me love it because of all the story involved, because it felt like i was actually part of something. A journey like that should feel epic in the end, after you have traversed the world, conquered foes, explored and discovered things and collected what you need to craft your very own set.  

Why can't people understand that there's nothing interesting about spending 15 minutes of my time grinding against a world boss or a champion mob that's so scaled up it's just a glorified damage sponge?  It's lifeless, unengaging content that I can zone out of while just auto attacking.  This wolf?  Three attacks.  Two of which are single target, root it in place, and have limited range while the third is the only one that's dangerous. Shadow Behemoth?  Does it even attack? All it does is scream and go invulnerable while 4 people who aren't afk go deal with the portals.  Man, I pray for the day no one goes after the portals out of  spite so the event fails.

Everything in the open world is static.   Most dynamic events all have set spawns, weak stories, and go on repeat so it feels like you didn't do anything. All boss events are literally on a set timer.  There's nothing engaging about showing up 20 minutes to the next event in a 50 man squad (That somehow does less DPS than a 10 man group from raids or a 5 man group from fractals) and whack a boss with ~148m HP for 10 minutes.

Also fractals have a story if you pay attention.  You're in there helping Dessa with her research.  This starts falling off  with the Chaos fractal as another asura pushes their way in and starts messing with things.  Sunqua peak also has a story and the boss a name.  Raids tell the story of how Bloodstone Fen happened (w1-w3), gives closure to the white mantle leader (w4), saves Tyria from the Voice in the Void (w5), and shows Zommoros  antics + Djinn lore (w6 & w7) with enemies that actually pose a threat and take effort to kill.  In raids it felt like these enemies were actual threats while in story and open world I could fall asleep and these foes would die.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

4 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

I'm perfectly fine with the Perfected Envoy armor being locked behind raids. It was the first legendary armor in the game and as far as I am aware they originally didn't even plan to add any other form to get legendary armor. They just added PvP and WvW armor later because nobody was playing raids but people wanted legendary stuff (hence why they don't have special skins like raid armor).

Alright, this is actually incorrect.


They (ANet) added legendary armor to PvP and WvW for the same reason dungeon armor was added t o PvP and WvW Reward tracks.  It's to throw those players who play that content a way to earn those skins, give them the functionality of legendary armor, and to entice more players to play that content.  It  has nothing to do with how active raids are.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Well that's interesting.    You say they're mechanically easy, yet also decry that it's too hard to find a group while at the same time saying player skill isn't a  factor.  Make up your mind. 

I did. Like i said, the "difficulty" lies in organization and time management. Not in personal skill level. You don't need players with high personal skill. You need ones that have sunk enough time in the encounter to memorize the patterns and learn mechanics. This can be fast for some, or very long for others, but is doable by likely 80-90% of the game population. If they have time and don't quit partway due to how mindnumbingly boring that part is. And if they have time to spare for it.

 

So, basically, the first hurdle is having enough time to dedicate to training (and, later, to clears/retrains). And not only enough time, but also enough time you can allocate to specific schedule (someone whose time schedule is prone to last-second changes usually does not qualify). The second is having enough willpower to get through that training without flipping the table and leaving the room (this is actually the part where most of the players that do have time give up). The third is getting 9 more of such players.

Notice, that a relatively small number of players get to skip the second part due to actually liking that type of play, but the rest doesn't get it that easy.

 

Personal skill is truly the least of the issues here.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Are raids too easy or too hard for the general populace? 

Too hard, but the difficulty, as i mentioned, has next to nothing to do with actual skill.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Also that second line " By the time i had the first set and was working on the next two, i was doing the fights while trying not to go asleep" would have been rectified if ANet added more bosses.  You're burning out on the same 25 encounters that have been available for the past 3 years.  You're self admitting that this content is easy for you because you've spent so much time on it. 

Yes, because that's all there is to the raid difficulty. Most of the encounters are not difficult to execute. They just take time to learn.

(notice, that there are exceptions, especially among some of the CMs, that do require higher personal skills, but for the most part it's just never an issue for a huge majority of the normal raid encounters)

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

This is like me saying SAB trib mode is easy to someone who's never done that content before while at the same time owning all King Toad and Storm Wizard skins.  You still had to learn the encounters, how to deal with the mechanics either with class abilities or in the designed way.

Tribulation mode is still as difficult to me as it was originally. I just can't easily make some of the jumps required, no matter how many times i have done them before. Raids are not like that.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You still had to organize groups to take d own the encounters.  Don't discount your early experience because you don't like raids now.

Yes, and it's exactly that organization that is a barrier. It's not difficult per se - it's just very, very tedious.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Well, I'd dig up the posts, but PvP & being unable to get the locations is precisely why it was changed. 

Yes, precisely.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

So you admit you don't like them and are trying to warn others not to play them because you don't like them? 

No. I'd want others to have a choice. I mean, it's not like i am asking to have the legendary armor removed from raids, after all.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I'm sorry, what?  What happens when players get bored of the open world?  There's instanced content, but people like you have scared them away from it with their own personal distaste of such content.

Oh, it's not people like me that scared others away. The content itself did a very good job doing it. It's just not compatible with a majority of players.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Yes.  Strikes will have that tiered system everyone's been asking raids to have if ANet builds them correctly for EoD.  They'll likely have  easy mode (Story), normal mode (Strike encounter), and variations of hard mode with the Challenge Mode.  You sound like you'd have a problem with Fractals if ANet added another tier beyond T4 that had legendary armor as one of its rewards.

Raiders already have their armor. And adding more of it for them (even if it's through other types of content) will hardly solve any of the issues i have with the current implementation.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Mostly because, by the time you get 650 LI, all the gold you'd need for the armor, etc., you'll have all the achievements, skins, and minis from raids leaving them as basically a farm with bosses you've likely done dozens if not hundreds of times by this point.  If raids had more wings, I guarantee you people would f lock to them. There was a huge resurgence in raid interest when wing 7 came out.

Yeah, right. That "huge resurgence" was big enough Anet decided to finally give up on that content, remember? Sure, more wings would have slowed the decay, but most of the people that quit after getting three armor sets (and practically all those that quit after getting the first one) did it well before wing 7.

If someone quits around that threshold, it;s not because there's no new content/they got burned out. It's because they've been in there for the armor and quit after they obtained it.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Alright, this is actually incorrect.


They (ANet) added legendary armor to PvP and WvW for the same reason dungeon armor was added t o PvP and WvW Reward tracks.  It's to throw those players who play that content a way to earn those skins, give them the functionality of legendary armor, and to entice more players to play that content.  It  has nothing to do with how active raids are.

Actually, they added dungeon armor to SPvP/WvW reward tracks, because they decided to pull the plug on dungeons and really needed to introduce a backup source for skins and legendary gifts.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Actually, they added dungeon armor to SPvP/WvW reward tracks, because they decided to pull the plug on dungeons and really needed to introduce a backup source for skins and legendary gifts.

objectively false. 

Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns is the first expansion pack for Guild Wars 2. It was released on October 23, 2015.  This is when ANet nerfed dungeon rewards.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns

Reward tracks for dungeons were added to sPvP in Update - April 15, 2014
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/April_2014

Reward tracks for WvW that included dungeons were added in Update - June 14, 2016
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/June_2016

What's odd is that, a few months before the WvW reward track update, ANet released an update to dungeoon rewards that made them on par, if not just outright better than before in Update - April 19, 2016 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/April_2016
How very odd that ANet would be pulling the plug on dungeons only to not do that at all, actually.

EDIT:

To add further still

Dungeons are built on legacy code.  They're not easily changed or shifted.  If you played around 2012-2014 you'd know that any time ANet changed something in dungeons, something else would break.  This is why dungeons weren't developed further.  The code is  just too broken to make use of.
 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Vayne.8563]

On 8/2/2021 at 7:54 PM, Turin.6921 said:

It has been discussed to death. The tougher content with better rewards requires some team work. Meaning that sometimes you have to do things for the team instead for yourself. Its no different if you are queuing for PvP with a team or want to play WvW with a guild or a zerg etc. In a team effort sometimes you have to adjust. Every player gets "locked out" of stuff because they do not care about a game mode ot a playstyle. Its fine. You cannot flatten rewards like that so that all can get everything with every activity. You kill the game.

That being said DPS power soulbeast is still used and its pretty fine provided you play it well enough. Probaly in LFG group they ask you to get a healer as it is easier to get DPS as others said.

It's a little different. A person can get legendary armor in PvP losing every single game. It'll just take them three times longer. Every win you get shortens that obvoiusly.  Almost anyone can get a legendary weapon. But not everyone will be able to get legendary armor.  It creates a have and have no game, because it's the only animating armor in the game.  Frankly I won't raid because it's locked behind raids. I'll get PvP legendary armor instead, even though I'm a  PvE'er.  But I don't enjoy raiding and I'm not happy that Anet is trying to force me to raid to get the only animating armor in the game.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

12 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's a little different. A person can get legendary armor in PvP losing every single game. It'll just take them three times longer. Every win you get shortens that obvoiusly.  Almost anyone can get a legendary weapon. But not everyone will be able to get legendary armor.  It creates a have and have no game, because it's the only animating armor in the game.  Frankly I won't raid because it's locked behind raids. I'll get PvP legendary armor instead, even though I'm a  PvE'er.  But I don't enjoy raiding and I'm not happy that Anet is trying to force me to raid to get the only animating armor in the game.

If you can fail in PvP and still get the armor, there you go.   There's your opportunity.  No one can stop you from entering the queue and playing poorly.  Turn off map chat, go invis if you don't want salt projected at you.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

27 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's a little different. A person can get legendary armor in PvP losing every single game. It'll just take them three times longer. Every win you get shortens that obvoiusly.  Almost anyone can get a legendary weapon. But not everyone will be able to get legendary armor.  It creates a have and have no game, because it's the only animating armor in the game.  Frankly I won't raid because it's locked behind raids. I'll get PvP legendary armor instead, even though I'm a  PvE'er.  But I don't enjoy raiding and I'm not happy that Anet is trying to force me to raid to get the only animating armor in the game.

Then go pay for raid sales then and get it that way. You can just jump off the edge of every boss platform and get carried all the way to shiny victory. You might even feel an inkling of achievement after that too. 

[Obtena.7952]

45 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Then go pay for raid sales then and get it that way. You can just jump off the edge of every boss platform and get carried all the way to shiny victory. You might even feel an inkling of achievement after that too. 

I think the point is missing you here. No one is (well, the OP might be) arguing they can't get legendary armor; we all know that there are multiple ways to do so and likely, what those ways are EVEN if you just pay for it. 

 

The point being made I think is that even though we have all these ways, there is something missing in the execution, which is apparent by how few people engage in the content and its rewards. I won't suggest people take up the pitchforks and torches but we should all be concerned that we have these things and their uptake by the playerbase is poor .. because that doesn't JUST affect the people that want the armor ... it also has a broader impact on the economy. That kind of content execution is what kills games. If people just start paying to get gear and not playing the game, that's NOT a good exceution. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I did. Like i said, the "difficulty" lies in organization and time management. Not in personal skill level. You don't need players with high personal skill. You need ones that have sunk enough time in the encounter to memorize the patterns and learn mechanics. This can be fast for some, or very long for others, but is doable by likely 80-90% of the game population. If they have time and don't quit partway due to how mindnumbingly boring that part is. And if they have time to spare for it.

There's no difficulty in finding a party at all.  This is even more true if you decide that you're going to look for groups at raid reset.  You can always list your own group.  Yes people will leave if a boss isn't killed in x amount of time or there are a ton of wipes.  This is standard in all instanced content in this game even back when dungeons were t he only instanced content.

Memorizing patterns and boss animations, sound cues, etc.  this is true for all content in the game.  All bosses in this game have some form of warning leading up to their big attacks, that, once learned, can be countered through active play.
 

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So, basically, the first hurdle is having enough time to dedicate to training (and, later, to clears/retrains). And not only enough time, but also enough time you can allocate to specific schedule (someone whose time schedule is prone to last-second changes usually does not qualify). The second is having enough willpower to get through that training without flipping the table and leaving the room (this is actually the part where most of the players that do have time give up). The third is getting 9 more of such players.

Notice, that a relatively small number of players get to skip the second part due to actually liking that type of play, but the rest doesn't get it that easy.

 

Personal skill is truly the least of the issues here.

 

Too hard, but the difficulty, as i mentioned, has next to nothing to do with actual skill.
 

Yes, because that's all there is to the raid difficulty. Most of the encounters are not difficult to execute. They just take time to learn.

(notice, that there are exceptions, especially among some of the CMs, that do require higher personal skills, but for the most part it's just never an issue for a huge majority of the normal raid encounters)

 

Tribulation mode is still as difficult to me as it was originally. I just can't easily make some of the jumps required, no matter how many times i have done them before. Raids are not like that.

 

Yes, and it's exactly that organization that is a barrier. It's not difficult per se - it's just very, very tedious.

It's too hard for the general populace, but it's also not hard because all you need to do is form a party and spend time on it.  😕???  You know, time is basically what you spend to master something, right?  To get better at coding, you memorize certain lines of code and spend time expanding your understanding of how it interacts with all the arguments.  To get better at speaking a language, you spend time learning phrases then expand your understanding on how to use those phrases and words to make your own phrases and speak fluently.  To be a better GW2 player you spend time researching builds, gearing out your character(s) and understand how rotations, boons, and such work together to take down bigger foes.  Personal skill is the biggest issue.  There's objectively a huge gap between what open world players do and how they perform vs the people who spend even just a week getting a consistent build/rotation down.  It's night and day.  ANet's even come out and said that.  What needs to be done about it is a discussion for another thread.

 

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Yes, precisely.

No, not precisely.  You can take a tower when it's undefended. The PvP happened when swarms of players wiped your group because people responded.  You're supposed to fight over objectives in WvW.  That's what it is by design. You're supposed to take objectives and hold them.

 

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No. I'd want others to have a choice. I mean, it's not like i am asking to have the legendary armor removed from raids, after all.

Raiders already have their armor. And adding more of it for them (even if it's through other types of content) will hardly solve any of the issues i have with the current implementation.

There's already two other options that require similar time investments that have even less "gating" raids does as content.  There's your choice.  WvW, PvP, or PvE.  There's no issues with the current implementation.  You want the armor, the free transmutation, attribute change, upgrade exchange, etc.  You put forth the effort to acquire it.
 

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Oh, it's not people like me that scared others away. The content itself did a very good job doing it. It's just not compatible with a majority of players.

Actually, it is.  There was naught a day on reddit or here where  someone didn't decry toxicity, but when pressed for more information to show both sides of the story, backed down.  There have been very few and actually legitimate sources of toxicity and elitist behavior in raids.

It is not toxic or elitist to require experience for the listed encounters on the LFG
It is not toxic or elitist to request specific builds and expect people to play them well
It is not toxic or elitist to kick someone who's under-performing and refuses to listen or isn't improving.
It is not toxic or elitist to not want to train or carry someone who's new when the squad wants a clear.

It is toxic to expect to be able to freely join any group with no experience on the encounter they're doing.
It is toxic to join without meeting any prerequisites for a group and expecting to play.
It is toxic to complain about getting kicked from a group for the above reasons
It is toxic to expect to be carried and taught on other's time while doing nothing for the team.

This is what people need to understand.  Raids are a team effort.  Everyone in the squad should want to kill the boss and do so in  manner that is understood by everyone there from strategies to group composition.  What scared everyone away was everyone decrying raiders as toxic elitists (The same group that said the same things about people who wanted to run dungeons with experienced people.)  Even back in the day, when the Ruined City of Arah was the hardest instanced content in the game, I was called elitist for wanting to run a group with people who understood the Giganticus Lupicus fight.  There's this attitude that, once someone knows how an encounter works, they're obligated to teach when that's not the case at all.  This is even more true by the fact that there are so many guides and methods to learn the fights now online that you could literally start every wing and encounter with more knowledge than the people going in for the first time on release.
 

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Yeah, right. That "huge resurgence" was big enough Anet decided to finally give up on that content, remember? Sure, more wings would have slowed the decay, but most of the people that quit after getting three armor sets (and practically all those that quit after getting the first one) did it well before wing 7.

It actually did, but I suppose you'd like to believe it didn't because you have this vendetta against raids.  See, what happened is ANet released  wing 7.  Raiders gave feedback saying that the encounters were too easy.  This was well before there was any reason to repeat the CMs with the Terror Toppler achievement that's now available. All ANet would have to do is release a cadence of raids with average bosses that get more difficult with the CMs, add repeatable rewards to the CMs and a release cadence even once a year would be enough.  New raids put everyone on the same page as no one knows the encounters.  This makes it easier  for newbies to get their foot into the door.
 

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If someone quits around that threshold, it;s not because there's no new content/they got burned out. It's because they've been in there for the armor and quit after they obtained it.

False.  I'm almost done with full 3 sets legendary armor and  I've only two CM achievements left to get and five skins as well.  Once I'm done, I don't really forsee a reason to continue raiding beyond that point because I already have everything from raids.  Some people may stop sooner because there's less they want from raids.
 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Raids are unsustainable because its already hard to get enough people for 5man content in this game, let alone 10man. On top of that you need much more specific builds, playing styles, etc.

 

In another, larger MMO, this might be possible. But this game barely has enough players for open-world on some of the more obscure maps at this point, and that's some of the most casual content possible. Expecting hardcore content to become populated with infinitely more restrictions is nonsense--and this is why Strikes will fail in EoD too. They'll get played for a few months and then no one will ever see them again, especially not newer players.

 

And I can only IMAGINE the tumbleweeds that'll fly by when you say "Dragonstorm" a year from now.

 

We need more sustainable PvE designs in this game, period. Content that's designed to be completed several years down the road, maybe even ten years down the road, and when it comes to that kind of design concept, raids and the larger Strikes fall flat more than anything else in the game.

 

(This is also the problem with PvP design/rewards btw. although WvW is still doing okay.)

Edited August 8, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Xanadrine.4352]

I can guarantee you that if anet were to put a log in poll tomorrow asking if the players would like to have a legendary armor set tied to an open world journey it would overwhelmingly be supported!  This forum is a small sample of the players, very small. And its even a smaller percentage of players that raid or have any interest in raiding. 

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Then go pay for raid sales then and get it that way. You can just jump off the edge of every boss platform and get carried all the way to shiny victory. You might even feel an inkling of achievement after that too. 

I could, but I won't, thanks. Because then I'll be counted as a raider. I'm not raiding for a reason. Finishing every raid shows that I'm a raider, and I don't want to be counted in that demographic. It's not the money, it's the principle. 

I bought a game that had no raids, partly because it had no raids. I feel personally like raiding has destroyed what MMOs could have been. I was happy for a game without it. 

Obviously some people love it, but some people can't stand it, because of how almost every other themepark MMO funnels you into it. I played Rift and without raiding you couldn't even finish the main quest line.

[mindcircus.1506]

1 hour ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

I can guarantee you that if anet were to put a log in poll tomorrow asking if the players would like to have a legendary armor set tied to an open world journey it would overwhelmingly be supported!  This forum is a small sample of the players, very small. And its even a smaller percentage of players that raid or have any interest in raiding. 

And I guarantee you that if Anet put up a poll tomorrow that asked if every skritt should drop 40gold players would overwhelmingly support that too.

Doesn't mean it would be good for the game.

[mindcircus.1506]

13 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I could, but I won't, thanks. Because then I'll be counted as a raider. I'm not raiding for a reason. Finishing every raid shows that I'm a raider, and I don't want to be counted in that demographic. It's not the money, it's the principle.

You've previously admitted to buying raid carries for both yourself and your wife.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

14 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I could, but I won't, thanks. Because then I'll be counted as a raider. I'm not raiding for a reason. Finishing every raid shows that I'm a raider, and I don't want to be counted in that demographic. It's not the money, it's the principle. 

I bought a game that had no raids, partly because it had no raids. I feel personally like raiding has destroyed what MMOs could have been. I was happy for a game without it. 

Obviously some people love it, but some people can't stand it, because of how almost every other themepark MMO funnels you into it. I played Rift and without raiding you couldn't even finish the main quest line.

Paying for raids and dying off the start doesn't make you a raider. Never think it does.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

16 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I could, but I won't, thanks. Because then I'll be counted as a raider. I'm not raiding for a reason. Finishing every raid shows that I'm a raider, and I don't want to be counted in that demographic. It's not the money, it's the principle. 

I bought a game that had no raids, partly because it had no raids. I feel personally like raiding has destroyed what MMOs could have been. I was happy for a game without it. 

Obviously some people love it, but some people can't stand it, because of how almost every other themepark MMO funnels you into it. I played Rift and without raiding you couldn't even finish the main quest line.

So you're admitting to a vendetta against raids.  A personal vendetta.  Raids here aren't even required to get legendary gear anymore. You have WvW and PvP for those, and if you hate those, tough luck.  I hate PvP but love the PvP legendary armor look.  I'm never going to get it because I just  don't like playing with randoms on my team that get real mad at one stomp in mid.  If you don't do the content, you don't deserve to get the rewards behind the content.  

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

You've previously admitted to buying raid carries for both yourself and your wife.

One single time for her birthday. Period. Because she wanted it and I'm a pretty decent husband from time to time. But that's not the same as buying enough raids to get legendary armor. I also admitted to doing the escort multiple times with my guild.  What's your point?

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

So you're admitting to a vendetta against raids.  A personal vendetta.  Raids here aren't even required to get legendary gear anymore. You have WvW and PvP for those, and if you hate those, tough luck.  I hate PvP but love the PvP legendary armor look.  I'm never going to get it because I just  don't like playing with randoms on my team that get real mad at one stomp in mid.  If you don't do the content, you don't deserve to get the rewards behind the content.  

I'm saying I don't like raids and I think they hurt MMOs. I'm not sure that's a vendetta. I don't write angry letters to Anet about them. I don't stand in front of Raids with picket signs. I generally ignore them.

But raids give you skins that animate and PvP and WvW do not.  You may not think that makes a difference, but I do. And that's okay. We can have different opinions without me having a vendetta.  Saying you don't like coffee and won't drink it doesn't mean you have a vendetta against coffee. It's funny how people use the language to try to get people to look like they're saying something they're not.

 

Yes, I do think raids are bad for MMOs and always have.  Doesn't mean I have a vendetta against them...just an opinion about them.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

And I guarantee you that if Anet put up a poll tomorrow that asked if every skritt should drop 40gold players would overwhelmingly support that too.

Doesn't mean it would be good for the game.

Doesn't change the fact that having an alternate route to get legendary armor probably won't be bad for the game. Having some stuff locked behind the less popular content might seem like a good idea to you, insofar as it encourages people to play that content, but on the other hand, I would rather play what I want to play instead of being "encouraged".

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

10 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm saying I don't like raids and I think they hurt MMOs. I'm not sure that's a vendetta. I don't write angry letters to Anet about them. I don't stand in front of Raids with picket signs. I generally ignore them.

But raids give you skins that animate and PvP and WvW do not.  You may not think that makes a difference, but I do. And that's okay. We can have different opinions without me having a vendetta.  Saying you don't like coffee and won't drink it doesn't mean you have a vendetta against coffee. It's funny how people use the language to try to get people to look like they're saying something they're not.

 

Yes, I do think raids are bad for MMOs and always have.  Doesn't mean I have a vendetta against them...just an opinion about them.

You're acting like they're the worst thing ever and have hurt GW2 at all.  Honestly, what I think hurts MMOs more are players who refuse to learn the game mechanics and continually post threads on how "x content is too difficult" or how they never have time between raising their kids, work, etc to play so the rewards for content should just be given to them.

 

11 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Doesn't change the fact that having an alternate route to get legendary armor probably won't be bad for the game. Having some stuff locked behind the less popular content might seem like a good idea to you, insofar as it encourages people to play that content, but on the other hand, I would rather play what I want to play instead of being "encouraged".

Uh, no, it does.  If you had full legendary gear, right now, full up on your main character.  Would you even log in anymore beyond gathering new LW stories or the expac?  If yes.  Bravo, you're rare.  If no, then you see my point.  It's a goal to be worked towards and there's already two alternate ways to get legendary armor.  One's mostly afk (WvW) and the other doesn't even require you to be good at the game mode (PvP).

[Zalavaaris.5329]

20 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But raids give you skins that animate

So go raid or stop whining.

 

I think the fact that the envoy armor has been out for 4 years now tells me something..... what's that tell you? Anet agree with us or you'd be able to be fully decked out in legendary envoy armor while you feed bunnies or pick flowers or whatever it is you do in the game. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

25 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

One single time for her birthday. Period. Because she wanted it and I'm a pretty decent husband from time to time. But that's not the same as buying enough raids to get legendary armor. I also admitted to doing the escort multiple times with my guild.  What's your point?

Aww, you've done a  raid!  Congratulations, you're now a raider.

[Vayne.8563]

35 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You're acting like they're the worst thing ever and have hurt GW2 at all.  Honestly, what I think hurts MMOs more are players who refuse to learn the game mechanics and continually post threads on how "x content is too difficult" or how they never have time between raising their kids, work, etc to play so the rewards for content should just be given to them.

 

Uh, no, it does.  If you had full legendary gear, right now, full up on your main character.  Would you even log in anymore beyond gathering new LW stories or the expac?  If yes.  Bravo, you're rare.  If no, then you see my point.  It's a goal to be worked towards and there's already two alternate ways to get legendary armor.  One's mostly afk (WvW) and the other doesn't even require you to be good at the game mode (PvP).

I'm acting like I'm stating an opinion of what I believe. Nothing more nothing less. No amount of hyperbole is going to change what I'm stating. How exactly is stating an opinion abnormal for a forum. You just disagree with that opinion so strongly you're putting more emphasis on it than I'm giving. I'm not out there every single day railing against raids, so much as stating an opinion in a thread about legendary armor being locked behind them.  Don't make more of it than it is.

 

As for what is bad for the game or not, I don't really think you get to decide. Nor do I.  This game has always had a large percentage of players who aren't aware of mechanics, but I'm not one of them. I do T4 fractals. I play WvW.  I PvP.  There are some mechanics I may not be aware of because there are raid bosses I haven't fought, but in the content I do, I assure you I'm aware of mechanics. Doesn't mean I have to like raids.

There's a middle ground between raiders and people who just play the game and are still aware of mechanics. You don't need to be a raider to be aware of mechanics. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Vayne.8563