Instead of more nerf/buff solution threads, How about analyzing our mistakes.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

26 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

 

"a system can be imbalanced for one reason, fiddled with, then be imbalanced for another reason."

 

"This implies that the balance originally before any of those changes was actually balanced, which is not the case."

 

I'm failing to see, how these two statements are different at all.

 

I think the only one you debating there is yourself mate.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

Huh? Literally it's this trash mindset where people think the balance team isn't at fault for the game becoming trash.

 

I'll use one example on a class that I play. There is literally no point in signet of rage over banner or rampage in the 3v3 mode, because some utilities are just stronger than the other. Why even play Berserker when Spellbreaker is just forgiving and potentially more damage after that stupid damage nerf that they did patches ago. You are telling me to "learn to play" when some builds are just indisputably better than the other? I can't even enjoy Core Warrior anymore because the balance team is absolute garbage.

 

Do you understand what I'm getting at right now? ANET CONTROLS NUMBERS (i.e casting times, power ratios, etc) AND FACTS AND LOGIC in this stupid game.

 

ANET is forcing people to play the "top 1%" specs because they are the ones who control the game's logic. They decided to screw over Skull Crack's casting time, nerf Warrior condition builds, made indirect nerfs to Longbow due to powercreep, and pidgeonhole Warrior into Greatsword. Are you seriously going to tell me to "L2P, GS/off-hand axe aren't the only good weapon sets right now, you can make telegraphed Mace work vs. 100 evades and 100 stun breaks?" Your logic is garbage.

 

Don't even get me started on instant cast vs. telegraphed skills and z-axis teleports. This game, specially after pre-HoT 2015, forces people to cheese. And it's because of ANET making garbage decisions.

 

You could argue that "just play the braindead characters, so you don't complain" but then that's just a boring trash game where everybody is just a homogenized blob that has no real identity playing nothing but the most obnoxious spec catered to the poorest schmucks because creativity and build variety isn't allowed. Why even have all of these traits in the first place.

 

I feel you mate. Some classes were handed out cheese on a silver platter, and others weren't. Kind rubs the wrong why when the cheese abusers tell you to git gud or l2p while you're effectively playing by a different set of rules.

Lot of pent up warrior main frustration with the balance team in this post folks. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 and @Lan Deathrider.5910 I think you both are saying pretty much the same things and that has been a misunderstanding somewhere.  It also looks like we're getting off topic and moving away from the original point of the thread--which is a very good one and worth exploring more! 

 

Thanks @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 for starting it---this is a constructive topic.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 and @Lan Deathrider.5910 I think you both are saying pretty much the same things and that has been a misunderstanding somewhere.  It also looks like we're getting off topic and moving away from the original point of the thread--which is a very good one and worth exploring more! 

You're right, thank you for calming the storm. Move along, nothing to see here anymore.

1 minute ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

 

Thanks @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 for starting it---this is a constructive topic.

This is a constructive topic. Let's not get lost in the weeds.

 

Its my opinion that there was an egregious overarching mistake by the balance team in how the did the Feb2020 patch and lack of real follow-up. That can be fixed by a proper follow up patch of the same scope, part of which would have to include the promised reworks to the 300s cd traits, and 'tweaks' to CC damage that they promised to roll back in gradually.

Hopefully prior to EoD rather than at the same time or after it's release.

[apharma.3741]

Ignoring the generalisation, there were many vocal members of the community (which had much more sway than anyone in this thread) who said removing menders wouldn't fix scourge (just the example brought up earlier) but the change was made anyway. The dev in charge of balance also probably knew this too.

 

So why do it? It's time to do some more analysing not just of yourselves but reasons and possible circumstances outside of what you might know. As alluded to earlier about the Feb 2020 balance patch and why it failed, there wasn't the continued time put into it, this you can see by looking at the number of balance related patches and number and scale of the changes within.

 

What does this mean? Well that's up to you to think about and do the analysing, to me it says there wasn't the resources to do more than what they did. This points to either understaffing or more likely resources being expended elsewhere, I don't think it's a coincidense that so many of the skills in the Virtuosso elite spec had the skill split message.

 

Yes but what's that got to do with menders? Well when you have limited resources and time you don't go for the time consuming elegant fix, you go for the quick fix that might help. Remember there was more than just scourge using menders and we ddon't have all the data ANet would, there could have been problems outside of what we could see and with potential future plans.

Edited August 13, 2021 by apharma.3741

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

15 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

 

"a system can be imbalanced for one reason, fiddled with, then be imbalanced for another reason."

 

"This implies that the balance originally before any of those changes was actually balanced, which is not the case."

 

I'm failing to see, how these two statements are different at all.

 

 

*squint* ?

 

A(Imbalanced) ---> X (Work Done) ----> B(Imbalanced in whole or in part because of X)

 

is not 

 

A(Balanced) ---> X (Work Done) ---> B(Imbalanced because of X)

 

But in either case, we are at B now and want a constructive change, so let's just assume we agree. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

22 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

*squint* ?

 

A(Imbalanced) ---> X (Work Done) ----> B(Imbalanced in whole or in part because of X)

 

is not 

 

A(Balanced) ---> X (Work Done) ---> B(Imbalanced because of X)

 

But in either case, we are at B now and want a constructive change, so let's just assume we agree. 

 

And like I said, The statement implies that A was balanced to begin with...which i said is not the case.

 

In other words, Lan's statement IMPLIES this: 

A(Balanced) ---> X (Work Done) ---> B(Imbalanced because of X

 

And I pointed out this out...saying that his statement implies that A was balanced to begin which i clearly said "was not the case." which MEANS my statement is this :

A(Imbalanced) ---> X (Work Done) ----> B(Imbalanced in whole or in part because of X)

 

Like i said, we both said the same thing. What is so hard to understand about this am i not speaking english?

Edited August 13, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

And like I said, The statement implies that A was balanced to begin with...which i said is not the case.

 

In other words, Lan's statement IMPLIES this: 

A(Balanced) ---> X (Work Done) ---> B(Imbalanced because of X

 

And I pointed out this out...saying that his statement implies that A was balanced to begin which i clearly said "was not the case." which MEANS my statement is this :

A(Imbalanced) ---> X (Work Done) ----> B(Imbalanced in whole or in part because of X)

 

Like i said, we both said the same thing. What is so hard to understand about this am i not speaking english?

That's not at all what my statement implied... That the false assumption you are making about my statement. Like Calm said though, let that issue drop as you are allowing it to derail your own thread.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

22 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Like i said, we both said the same thing. What is so hard to understand about this am i not speaking english?

 

No, you are. We're all on the same page here. It's just: 

 

Quote

 Lan's statement IMPLIES this: 

A(Balanced) ---> X (Work Done) ---> B(Imbalanced because of X

 

Lan's statement implies this to you, perhaps, because he was directly replying to your implication that "turning things up or down doesn't work / we need a new approach. "

 

Quote

it seems logical that simply tuning certain things back up would work…yet this was also already done many times before too. Pistol Pistol 3 on Thief was tuned up, then tuned down, then tuned up again before being tuned down again. This philosophy of simply tuning things up or down seems inconsistent.

 

(I assume) Lan was basically saying "yeah, but this patch blanket nerfed -all- the damage with the intent of turning things that were underperforming up, then didn't (Or, possibly, that the nerf was incomplete). That's is a good portion of the imbalance this patch." It wasn't right before, but it isnt right now, and the reason it's not right now is in large part because some values need to be turned up on some skills. 

 

Either way I think everyone agrees here; this is semantics. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

16 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That's not at all what my statement implied... 

 

But that was MY comment to your statement...I said that, your statement IMPLIES that A was balanced to begin with, which might not be the case (That A was imbalanced), which is what AZURE said and laid out in an A->B kind of format.

 

How can we even learn anything about each other, when we can't even understand each others point of view. I'm pretty sure I understand your argument very clearly... why make it difficult to understand my point of view by martyring me over some semantics? Again you insist that you are right...this isn't what the thread is supposed to be about...it's an analysis of why we are wrong....and also not why Anet is wrong...or why X Y Z are to blame...it's about why we as in ourselves were wrong about menders and other removals, and why we were wrong about Feb patch.

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Leonidrex.5649]

to anyone thinking before feb patch everyone was dying in 1hit.
you should have seen people duel, 2 dps oriented classes could be duking it out for 30-60s easily, even mesmer vs mesmer where technically you could 1shot from stealth, would go longer then that.
Keeping distance, kiting, predicting, and having proper action economy matter a whole lot more.
Now I can put healing trap on the node and spam leap finishers while getting my face pummeled and not lose hp.
Sometimes I really just go blank and play on autopilot from boredom, and then I wonder why do I even do this anymore. The dmg nerfs make the game too slow-paced and boring, and dying or killing doesnt even feel good.
You dont even get a kill on someone and think " I did good, so I won ", now I just think " what the kitten are you doing " most of the time. You have to do something absurdly stupid to die, or get gang-bang and die with being unable to do anything, no more I got outplayed and died.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Quote

The overwhelming consensus of the community for the removal of damage (and healing) from the game was to lessen the one shot meta of 2019 and lower TTK. Now everyone feels the exact opposite and wants damage returned.

 

I just wanna say that I think we expected more nuance for this balance patch. we wanted oneshots that were difficult to respond to nerfed, but that doesn't mean we wanted unkillable bunkers. 

 

There is a wide open field between those two extremes, and anywhere in the middle would probably be acceptable. 

 

Adding some damage back on skills in a way that won't create builds that immediately remove the ability for people to respond by sending them straight to downstate should be doable, if attention is given to when this damage is delivered. If it's at its highest when people are disabled or in a position they have the ability to recover from/avoid, but don't/cant (being stunned, being under 50% hp, being hit by a big telegraphed move) then the atrocious damage is warranted there. 

 

While you are correct that people need to evaluate why they are downing instead of always blaming what last killed them, the situation is a bit more granular than "we wanted all the damage gone, we got it, and now we want all the damage back." 

 

We wanted -some- of the damage gone, where it let people wipe others off the face of the map so quickly that they couldn't learn what killed them.

 

We don't want -all- of the damage back. Just to some of those builds that have to channel things in plain sight/in easily interruptible positions/need to clear some kind of mechanic gate before they start hitting you/have some other kind of damage delivery difficulty to not also be saddled with doing 7 damage on those hits that are already hard to land vs someone sentient. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

I just wanna say that I think we expected more nuance for this balance patch. we wanted oneshots that were difficult to respond to nerfed, but that doesn't mean we wanted unkillable bunkers. 

 

There is a wide open field between those two extremes, and anywhere in the middle would probably be acceptable. 

 

Adding some damage back on skills in a way that won't create builds that immediately remove the ability for people to respond by sending them straight to downstate should be doable, if attention is given to when this damage is delivered. If it's at its highest when people are disabled or in a position they have the ability to recover from/avoid, but don't/cant (being stunned, being under 50% hp, being hit by a big telegraphed move) then the atrocious damage is warranted there. 

 

While you are correct that people need to evaluate why they are downing instead of always blaming what last killed them, the situation is a bit more ganular than "we wanted all the damage gone, we got it, and now we want all the damage back." 

 

We wanted -some- of the damage gone, where it let people wipe others off the face of the map so quickly that they couldn't learn what killed them.

 

We don't want -all- of the damage back. Just to some of those builds that have to channel things in plain sight/in easily interruptible positions/need to clear some kind of mechanic gate before they start hitting you/have some other kind of damage delivery difficulty to not also be saddled with doing 7 damage on those hits that are already hard to land vs someone sentient. 

For sure I’m generalizing the community as a whole for the sake of trying to keep the topic simple.

But before the mega patch I really saw the majority of the community unanimously agreeing with the “nerf everything” philosophies. This is supported by the cult following CMC had developed both pre and post patch #freeCMC movement when there were changes that weren’t nerfs.

[BlackTruth.6813]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

you're effectively playing by a different set of rules.

 

This. Some skills that have higher casting times, you have to be more patient. Instant cast shatters and pets "bait dodges/land easier" while telegraphed skills "baits dodges longer/harder to land." And people are still oblivious to this.

 

I don't even want Warrior to be OP, I just want other classes to be just as "reasonable" as Warrior tbh, seriously just revert everything back to pre-HoT 2015. Also why are some elite specs just flat out better than core, it's kinda dumb. There is no L2P'ing when full counter is just too good to not have after the damage nerf across the board. But all of these things that I'm asking for isn't going to heard by ANET. ANET just adds more braindamage mechanics and they do their own thing. They don't really listen, they come up with their own solutions that add more problems.

 

Some people refuse to acknowledge common sense is how the forums and this game has always been.

[Ragnar.4257]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

to anyone thinking before feb patch everyone was dying in 1hit.
you should have seen people duel, 2 dps oriented classes could be duking it out for 30-60s easily, even mesmer vs mesmer where technically you could 1shot from stealth, would go longer then that.
Keeping distance, kiting, predicting, and having proper action economy matter a whole lot more.
Now I can put healing trap on the node and spam leap finishers while getting my face pummeled and not lose hp.
Sometimes I really just go blank and play on autopilot from boredom, and then I wonder why do I even do this anymore. The dmg nerfs make the game too slow-paced and boring, and dying or killing doesnt even feel good.
You dont even get a kill on someone and think " I did good, so I won ", now I just think " what the kitten are you doing " most of the time. You have to do something absurdly stupid to die, or get gang-bang and die with being unable to do anything, no more I got outplayed and died.

 

So here's a post I made in Octobot 2019, in response to this thread which was asking for thoughts on the current power-level, which fed directly into the Feb 2020 patch :

 

On 10/24/2019 at 9:47 AM, Ragnar.4257 said:

https://i.imgur.com/mnGzpPB.jpg

Please observe this graph for everything that is wrong with the feel of fights in GW2.

The top one is what players want.

The bottom one is what players get.

Note: by "Invuln" I mean any mechanic that effectively prevents the player from being hit. So this may be "actual" invuln, but can equally mean evades, blocks, stealth, the ability to kite away forever.

Just, in general, reduce the capacity of builds to stack 25 might and be able to hit for 50%+ HP every few seconds. And on the flip side, reduce the capacity of builds to remain effectively invulnerable for long periods and heal back 80%+ of their HP every ~20s.

The two go hand in hand, you cannot address one without the other.

 

Are you saying my vision of how fights should go was wrong? Because I still think this is correct. I disliked it being the case that basically everything everyone did was a potential game-ending move, and that therefore the only way to stay alive was to cycle a never-ending chain of invulnerabilites/blocks/evades etc. and the winner was simply whoever ran out of 1-shot/invuln CD's first.

 

Also fun reading that thread, seeing some of the names there calling for power reductions who are now all on the "grrrrr undo the nerfs" train.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

to anyone thinking before feb patch everyone was dying in 1hit.
you should have seen people duel, 2 dps oriented classes could be duking it out for 30-60s easily, even mesmer vs mesmer

True that. Back in the day most power dps classes would run demolishers because it wasn't trash, and a lot of condi would use... wanderer, I think?(Correct me if i'm wrong there) But both of which would keep people in fights a bit longer. Fights were actually reasonably paced in all but the most extreme glass cannon cases.

 

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I disliked it being the case that basically everything everyone did was a potential game-ending move, and that therefore the only way to stay alive was to cycle a never-ending chain of invulnerabilites/blocks/evades etc. and the winner was simply whoever ran out of 1-shot/invuln CD's first.

It really isn't all that different from that now. Only difference being that most decisive moves aren't so decisive anymore, so people are stuck just chaining damage mitigation. There's either no payoff for punishing mistakes, or the payoff comes so late that my battered and bruised attention span no longer cares enough to perceive what just happened.

 

You aren't wrong to prefer that. More power to you if you do, because you're probably having the time of your life right now.

But bunker meta is like going for a jog. A really slow jog. More like a walk actually. Some people just don't like going for walks.

[Ragnar.4257]

13 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

True that. Back in the day most power dps classes would run demolishers because it wasn't trash, and a lot of condi would use... wanderer, I think?(Correct me if i'm wrong there) But both of which would keep people in fights a bit longer. Fights were actually reasonably paced in all but the most extreme glass cannon cases.

 

It really isn't all that different from that now. Only difference being that most decisive moves aren't so decisive anymore, so people are stuck just chaining damage mitigation. There's either no payoff for punishing mistakes, or the payoff comes so late that my battered and bruised attention span no longer cares enough to perceive what just happened.

 

You aren't wrong to prefer that. More power to you if you do, because you're probably having the time of your life right now.

But bunker meta is like going for a jog. A really slow jog. More like a walk actually. Some people just don't like going for walks.

Did you look at the graph I linked?

 

In no way was my vision here for bunker meta. A gradient for the fight where one person or other ALWAYS reaches 0 health in under a minute is the exact opposite of bunker meta.

 

Being able to endlessly chain FULL mitigation skills is far more conducive to bunkering.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

25 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Did you look at the graph I linked?

Well, no. To be fair I didn't quote it tho.

25 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

 

In no way was my vision here for bunker meta. A gradient for the fight where one person or other ALWAYS reaches 0 health in under a minute is the exact opposite of bunker meta.

 

Being able to endlessly chain FULL mitigation skills is far more conducive to bunkering.

I thought you were saying that pre-Feb 2020 was just a mess of 1-shots and spamming defensive skills to mitigate that mess. 

 

To which I was saying that post-Feb 2020 is still just spamming defensive skills to mitigate damage, only without the threat of any such damage.

 

If I was wrong about thinking the first thing, please disregard the second thing. 

[Ragnar.4257]

10 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Well, no. To be fair I didn't quote it tho.

I thought you were saying that pre-Feb 2020 was just a mess of 1-shots and spamming defensive skills to mitigate that mess. 

 

To which I was saying that post-Feb 2020 is still just spamming defensive skills to mitigate damage, only without the threat of any such damage.

 

If I was wrong about thinking the first thing, please disregard the second thing. 

You are not spamming defensive skills in 2021 the same way you were spamming them in 2019. Most have had their CD's massively increased: say hello 75s CD Twist of Fate.

 

In general, we are not in a bunker meta. The only meta builds that could meet that definition are necro variants. One outlier which everyone agrees needs fixing does not a trend make.

 

Anyone who plays an 11k HP class will be very much aware that even in the current state you can absolutely die in a heartbeat.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

5 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You are not spamming defensive skills in 2021 the same way you were spamming them in 2019. Most have had their CD's massively increased: say hello 75s CD Twist of Fate.

Not the same way, nay. But i'm still spamming them.

5 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

 

In general, we are not in a bunker meta. The only meta builds that could meet that definition are necro variants. One outlier which everyone agrees needs fixing does not a trend make.

 

Anyone who plays an 11k HP class will be very much aware that even in the current state you can absolutely die in a heartbeat.

We are in a bunker meta and I am 150% certain of that

I play this because it is the best unknown build for Warrior: Spellbreaker Build

I average maybe 1 death per game, and the only 1v1s I ever lose have been to a combination of power mesmers and a consistent lack of dopamine.

 

You can say that's all my fault for playing a tanky build, fair enough.

But I got tired personally of going glass cannon strength/dagger to do a Bull's Charge into 100b for 3k damage. 

 

The only people who die instantly now tend to be damage vs. damage. Zerks vs Zerks.

Whereas previously if I tried playing that weird CC spam build i'd be dead very quickly and the slurs would come from my own team rather than the other team.

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 hours ago, BlackTruth.6813 said:

But all of these things that I'm asking for isn't going to heard by ANET. ANET just adds more braindamage mechanics and they do their own thing. They don't really listen, they come up with their own solutions that add more problems.

 

Some people refuse to acknowledge common sense is how the forums and this game has always been.

 

I think you aren't giving Anet enough credit.

 

Allow me to play the devil's advocate here.

 

Many people in this thread are saying there was no follow up to the patch...but I don't think that's being 100% truthful. There was follow up to the patch...in fact many things were followed up on...did it take a while? Yes it did. The only thing they didn't do that they promised to do was the fixing of the 300 second traits, but they quickly nerfed the outlier builds that appeared as a result of the patch like that Stun-lock Engineer build which existed for like about a week before it was nerfed...and this is what they promised to set out to do.

 

Now does Anet have issues? Sure they do...I think all people have issues because nobody nor anything is perfect. I think it's easy to BLAME somebody else, but everyone here is equally held accountable, since there was no real thought by the community into how such changes would effect the game.

Edited August 14, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[apharma.3741]

I and many other people who have played since launch knew what would happen, we also knew it wouldn't be a magic fix everything either (and I said so at the time), we also knew that ANet would likely not address what was making the game horrible to play after for months too.

 

The only thing I dislike is that CMC by and large is constrained to numbers changes instead of mechanic changes which is where the true problems lie, excessive bloat on skills. This is what caused the "unchain CMC" and general frustration about the game balance for many who understood what the changes would do.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

51 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

he only thing I dislike is that CMC by and large is constrained to numbers changes instead of mechanic changes which is where the true problems lie, excessive bloat on skills. This is what caused the "unchain CMC" and general frustration about the game balance for many who understood what the changes would do.

 

Umm pretty sure that's not true at all. The only thing CMC ever did was numerical changes...ever. The community said #freecmc whenever there actually WAS changes to mechanics and buffs rather than numerical nerfs that CMC always did. 

 

I think you should go and check the history on this.

 

[Ragnar.4257]

47 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Umm pretty sure that's not true at all. The only thing CMC ever did was numerical changes...ever. The community said #freecmc whenever there actually WAS changes to mechanics and buffs rather than numerical nerfs that CMC always did. 

 

I think you should go and check the history on this.

 

Nevermind, not worth it.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

46 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Nevermind, not worth it.

 

Here let me at least support this idea with some, "as close i can get" evidence.

 

Here is just a thread i googled up just now:

In this thread I'll lay out the quote:

 

u/pyule667 said:

What's with the #Freecmc?

 

And the top comment with 66 upvotes:

burizar said:

CMC has been one of the better dev GW2 ever had for balancing (especially in WvW and PvP). The balance changes recently were not reflective of his philosophy so we meme that he was “jailed” by Anet and needed to be freed

 

This poster says here : The balance changes recently were not reflective of his philosophy. The balance changes being talked about here was the PVE oriented patch that introduced new skills like Blood Bank on July 2020 (a year ago which you can tell this post aligns with that timeframe.)

 

Generally speaking, you can look at the entire July patch here : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2020-07-07#Necromancer

 

Again people were shouting "FreeCMC" because this patch was PVE oriented, mostly mechanical changes and additions and buffs, and had close to no numerical nerfs. This is "against the philosophy of cmc" which had always been to just nerf numbers only.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684