Rather confused about the Charr

[witcher.3197]

On 8/13/2021 at 10:15 PM, Morlu.8604 said:

Hey all,

 

Just started the game, and watched a brief youtube video behind the lore of GW1/bit of 2.

 

Why are the humans and charr allies? Is it because of a dragon that they decided to end a feud? 

I would imagine centuries of warfare was hard to just "forget" about. 

Plot convenience and complete disregard and disrespect of GW1 lore.

[Faridah.8431]

On 10/21/2021 at 3:08 PM, witcher.3197 said:

Plot convenience and complete disregard and disrespect of GW1 lore.

That and they had to if both Humans and Charr were going to be playable races and they wanted to go the "races stand united" route (which they did) vs an alliance vs horde type thing.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

13 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

That and they had to if both Humans and Charr were going to be playable races and they wanted to go the "races stand united" route (which they did) vs an alliance vs horde type thing.

As annoyed as I used to be, and to a much lesser degree still am, at how Anet went about making the Charr a playable race I'd still take the "Stand United" route over the WoW type Alliance vs Horde.

[De Dominator.9834]

Probably... actually almost definitely, has been said by someone else already. But for the most part in GW2 they are allies of convenience, they are basically in a ceasefire and have agreed that the Elder Dragons are a bigger threat and they really need to focus on them first and foremost, during most of Guild Wars 2 the Humans and Charr are in the process of negotiating a permanent peace but there is still alot of animosity on both sides that has limited progress, and as far as I am aware (unless I have just completely forgotten) they still haven't finished the peace negotiations and they are very much in progress still.

[Faridah.8431]

12 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

As annoyed as I used to be, and to a much lesser degree still am, at how Anet went about making the Charr a playable race I'd still take the "Stand United" route over the WoW type Alliance vs Horde.

For the scope of the story, agreed. Had they focused more story into that conflict, then I'd say we got cheated. Part of me still feels the way the races united was unrealistic, kumbaya, rainbows and unicorns kinda boring to be honest (frankly add Dragons to that mix - they've overstayed their welcome and thank god this is going to be "End of Dragons"), but at the same time I don't see how differing factions would have worked within the context of how GW2 PvE works.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Faridah.8431

[Gibson.4036]

Sometimes a generation can come along, look at their parents, and say “this stupid feud ends with us”.

[witcher.3197]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Sometimes a generation can come along, look at their parents, and say “this stupid feud ends with us”.

That never happens.

[Faridah.8431]

13 hours ago, De Dominator.9834 said:

Probably... actually almost definitely, has been said by someone else already. But for the most part in GW2 they are allies of convenience, they are basically in a ceasefire and have agreed that the Elder Dragons are a bigger threat and they really need to focus on them first and foremost, during most of Guild Wars 2 the Humans and Charr are in the process of negotiating a permanent peace but there is still alot of animosity on both sides that has limited progress, and as far as I am aware (unless I have just completely forgotten) they still haven't finished the peace negotiations and they are very much in progress still.

This is true and changed somewhat during IBS. 

That said I don't think most Human and Charr interaction outside of very specific story instances really play to this relationship dynamic much in terms of general open world NPC interaction or even Charr/Human player or Human/Charr player interaction in the story outside of Ascalon and the aforementioned story instances. It's not like me a Human character who claimed to be of Ascalonian decent via the missing sister story, ever encountered a Charr in the story and played out the relationship like that whether it was Rytlock or Tybalt or Almora, or just any other general Charr you come across. Sure, later in the story after really being established as the Commander that makes sense, but earlier on, doesn't feel like we just signed a tense ceasefire and really still have strained relations.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Faridah.8431

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, witcher.3197 said:

That never happens.

Know the details of all history, do you? There are more things in heaven and earth, young Padawan, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[The Greyhawk.9107]

40 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Know the details of all history, do you? There are more things in heaven and earth, young Padawan, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Care to provide some examples?

[Gibson.4036]

38 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Care to provide some examples?

Well, I’ve got some extended family…

Or does it need to be nations?

England and France pretty much constantly fought from the beginning of the twelfth century until the beginning of the 19th. Mid nineteenth century, still some events that looked like they might tip to war. By the turn of the 20th century, they were close allies. 
 

So 700 years of being enemies, and in just fifty years they were tense, but peaceful, and fifty more years committed allies.

—————

On a side note, in relation to other conversation so far in this thread, I expect there will always be Sons of Svanir, flying Jormag Banners out in front of their huts and defending their right to their “heritage” against anybody that questions it. It’s amazing how people can go one for generations holding on to a lost cause.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Tiffany.8216]

On 8/16/2021 at 9:25 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

For the long story, read the novel Ghosts of Ascalon as this covers the beginnings and reasons for the cease fire.

 

The short version is: after Kralkatorrik woke up, the charr just had too many enemies to deal with (humans, ogres, Foefire ghosts, returning Flame Legion, and the brand new Branded), so they decided to negotiate with the one enemy that could be negotiated with - humans of Ebonhawke - to reduce the number of threats and give the charr of Ascalon an easier time to focus on the other threats that can't be dealt with. Ironically, this created the Separatists and Reneagdes - humans and charr (respectively) who refuse the ceasefire to the point of rebellion and criminal activity.

 

They aren't strictly allies at the start of the game, but rather merely under a ceasefire with negotiations of a formal truce underway. You can see the truce negotiations ongoing in Fields of Ruin and the Vigil storyline.

 

What happens when the threats to charr lessen is covered as a major subplot in the latest storyline, Icebrood Saga.

I'd also like to note that the very end of Edge of Destiny also shows the awakening of Kralkatorrik, Logan Thackeray freeing charr prisoners of war in Ebonhawke to help fight the Branded, and Queen Jennah subsequently pardoning those who fought, declaring that there were other threats than charr.  Over the next four years, peace factions emerged on both sides, and Ghosts of Ascalon shows the undercover negotiations with the Vigil acting as a third-party, iirc resulting in a more official ceasefire and the peace treaty negotiations. A year after that, in the Personal Storyline, Vigil players fight off Renegades and defend the negotiations, and soon after there is a celebration in Kryta, attended by both the Queen and a charr representative, to celebrate the Ebonhawke Treaty.

 

Technically there's no confirmation that this celebration marked the actual time the treaty was signed or went into effect or what-have-you - in fact, now that I think about it, I don't think anything was ever mentioned about the treaty actually being finalized until the very recent "the treaty was ten years ago" comment. We're technically nine years out from the treaty, since it definitely wasn't treaty-level the year before, in Ghosts of Ascalon, so while the queen's celebration may not have marked the actual event of the treaty's signing, it happened more-or-less around that time. (Even before the "the treaty was ten years ago" comment, I'd always thought it was canon that celebration was held after and in response to the signing of the treaty.)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

39 minutes ago, Tiffany.8216 said:

I'd also like to note that the very end of Edge of Destiny also shows the awakening of Kralkatorrik, Logan Thackeray freeing charr prisoners of war in Ebonhawke to help fight the Branded, and Queen Jennah subsequently pardoning those who fought, declaring that there were other threats than charr.  Over the next four years, peace factions emerged on both sides, and Ghosts of Ascalon shows the undercover negotiations with the Vigil acting as a third-party, iirc resulting in a more official ceasefire and the peace treaty negotiations. A year after that, in the Personal Storyline, Vigil players fight off Renegades and defend the negotiations, and soon after there is a celebration in Kryta, attended by both the Queen and a charr representative, to celebrate the Ebonhawke Treaty.

 

Technically there's no confirmation that this celebration marked the actual time the treaty was signed or went into effect or what-have-you - in fact, now that I think about it, I don't think anything was ever mentioned about the treaty actually being finalized until the very recent "the treaty was ten years ago" comment. We're technically nine years out from the treaty, since it definitely wasn't treaty-level the year before, in Ghosts of Ascalon, so while the queen's celebration may not have marked the actual event of the treaty's signing, it happened more-or-less around that time. (Even before the "the treaty was ten years ago" comment, I'd always thought it was canon that celebration was held after and in response to the signing of the treaty.)

So the party in question - happening during Caudecus' Manor - is not celebrating the treaty being signed, but the negotiations for the treaty taking place:

Your Herald

An Invitation to Caudecus's Manor

Hail, mighty hero!

I hope that you are well! The neighborhood is buzzing with excitement about you! I've had word that there will be a party celebrating the charr/human peace negotiations in Queensdale. The reception will be at the Manor of Lord Caudecus, overlooking the shire of Beetletun, and will be attended by diplomats from all the major races. Captain Logan Thackeray is concerned for the safety of Queen Jennah, will be attending, and will need support. A hero of your merit should attend the soiree and offer what help you can.

—Thanks, Your Herald
PS - We understand that Zojja will be attending as well as part of the asura delegation, but we don't know why. She is always a wild card, so be cautious.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Caudecus's_Manor_(story)#Dungeon_information

As to the first mention of the peace treaty being signed, that was in dialogue with Xeniph during the Guide to Greater Understanding collection, which was added mid-Season 4 (specifically between Episode 3 and Episode 4, in the middle of Festival of the Four Winds 2018). This takes place in mid-1331 AE. During Season 2, late 1327 AE, the peace treaty is stated to still be in the works:

We may be here on a fool's errand, but it's worth a try. Rytlock has done the impossible before. These ghosts have plagued my people for too long. I spend every day looking for ways to end it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/5/5a/Talk_quest_option_tango.png If this works, it would be a boon for both charr and humans.

True. It must be infuriating for humans, even those who aren't descended from Ascalonians.

(If charr)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/5/5a/Talk_quest_option_tango.png Maybe it'll help us get the treaty signed.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plan_of_Attack

So the treaty was signed sometime between late-1327 and mid-1331 AE, but we don't know exactly when. No mention of it being signed in Season 3 (afaik, no mention of it at all in S3), so it was likely signed while the Commander was in Elona, as that'd be a big thing to not mention when dealing with human politics, or when a group of charr show up to help out.

The bit in Ebonhawke DRM in IBS, taking place in mid-late 1333 AE, constantly saying the treaty was signed "10 years ago" is weird and wrong on two occasions. The ceasefire was agreed upon 9 years +- some months prior at that point, and the treaty signed no less than 2 years prior but no more than 6 years prior. So it's rounding the ceasefire agreement, while talking about the peace treaty.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086