Rather confused about the Charr

[Morlu.8604]

Hey all,

 

Just started the game, and watched a brief youtube video behind the lore of GW1/bit of 2.

 

Why are the humans and charr allies? Is it because of a dragon that they decided to end a feud? 

I would imagine centuries of warfare was hard to just "forget" about. 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

It was a number of factors including the Charr having to juggle the fight between the Branded, the Flame Legion, the Ghosts of Ascalon, and humanity, and wanting to lessen the number of threats they had to face.

 

Not only that, but the Charr had been laying siege to Ebonhawke for like 200+ years, and utterly failed to take it. With many consdering it a giant waste of time and resources.

 

It just wasn't really worth continuing to fight the humans when they had so much more on their plate, and they really weren't getting anywhere.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Charr wanted to avoid what happened to Germany in World War II.

[Teletric.3821]

Partially, it's because of the elder dragon threat, but also because they are dealing with their own issues. The Charr legions have to deal with the ghost problem that couldn't seem to be fixed at that point. On the other hand, the Krytans are dealing with things like Centaur invasions and political corruption in their ranks. Fighting a war with one another would costs resources and would leave them more vulnerable to those threats.

 

Also, a big reason why the Charr were enemies with the humans to begin with are also out of the picture for the most part. The Flame Legion were the power-hungry people in charge who were responsible for the invasion of Kryta and Orr, and practices like the ritual sacrifice of humans. I'd imagine that the fact that a group of humans (your GW1 party) assisted in starting the revolution against their rule helped the relationship as well.

[Dawdler.8521]

The Charr ending centuries of hostilities after the Asura show up? Coincidence? I think not! They recognize their superiors.

[Harak.8397]

Spoiler

Before being unceremoniously character assassinated and then flat out assassinated,

Smodur the Unflinching was presented as a progressive leader who realized the war with the Ebonhawke enclave was pointless now that humans had settled into Kryta and the Charr had retaken and consolidated Ascalon. Thus as the others have said, with the looming threats both races faced, the Charr and elements among the humans made overtures towards a cease fire treaty and later something more permanent.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Harak.8397

[Rognik.2579]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Queen Jennah also proposed the peace treaty with the charr, and sent Dougal and company off to Ascalon City ruins to retrieve the Claw of the Khan-Ur as a peace offering. If not for both Jennah and Smodur, the charr might still be warring, even though there were signs from both sides of tiring of the long war. Of course, you'll always have people like the Separatists and the charr Renegades who refuse to accept peace, but thankfully they are a very vocal (or active, in the Plains of Ruin) minority.

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 hours ago, Teletric.3821 said:

Also, a big reason why the Charr were enemies with the humans to begin with are also out of the picture for the most part. The Flame Legion were the power-hungry people in charge who were responsible for the invasion of Kryta and Orr, and practices like the ritual sacrifice of humans. I'd imagine that the fact that a group of humans (your GW1 party) assisted in starting the revolution against their rule helped the relationship as well.

 

I'd also like to add that the Searing effectively defeated humanity in Ascalon, and the Cataclysm removed the human threat from Orr. Kryta is past the Shiverpeaks, and has been dealing with its own significant internal issues. From a strategic perspective, I think it makes a lot of sense that leaders from both sides (with an eye on their own internal problems) would be able to find the opportunity to draw down hostilities.

 

6 hours ago, Morlu.8604 said:

I would imagine centuries of warfare was hard to just "forget" about. 

 

Indeed. The treaty itself is what, 10 years old? And yet, the writers at ANet thought it made sense for the Commander in the latest living world season to express Karen-levels of exasperation that the people of Ebonhawke were uncomfortable with armed Charr military presence in their streets. Kasmeer does half-heartedly speak up for the other point of view, but in a patronizing tone - much like when we ask friends and neighbors to excuse the ultra-racist thing that one of our elderly relatives just said really loudly. There's zero acknowledgment that the people of Ebonhawke can reasonably feel the way they do.

 

To me, this is one of ANet's most offensive narrative failings. 10 years to get over centuries of mutual atrocity and hostility? Utterly ridiculous. By that logic, African-Americans should be totally cool with the echoes of slavery because, after all, slavery formally ended 150 years ago in the US.

This is the reason why I'm pensive about the post-Elder-dragon world that might come after End of Dragons. ANet has already shown itself to be incredibly inept at portraying the fallout of longstanding non-dragon wounds in Tyria, and I don't see any reason to think we won't see more of that mess in the future.

[ASP.8093]

On 8/13/2021 at 4:15 PM, Morlu.8604 said:

Why are the humans and charr allies? Is it because of a dragon that they decided to end a feud? 

I would imagine centuries of warfare was hard to just "forget" about. 

It's a messy history.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Human-charr_conflict

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charr_rebellion

 

Back in Guild Wars 1, Charr laid waste to Ascalon via a magical event called The Searing. Many Ascalonians fought on (under leaders like Adelbren and Barradin), eventually leading to the Foefire, a salt-the-earth kind of move that causes all those Ascalonian Ghosts the Charr are stuck fighting to this day.

 

BUT, at the same time: another group of Ascalonians (led by Rurik) abandon their ruined homeland. They go west to Lion's Arch / Kryta. Heroes from among these refugees (your protagonist in the GW1 original campaign) end up bringing down both the 'Unseen Ones' who rule Kryta (the Mursaat) and the Titans (primordial creatures the Charr worship as gods). Doing *THAT* leads to a rebellion among the Charr, as the dominant Shaman caste no longer has the power to control their whole society. Some of the rebels, like Pyre Fierceshot, ally themselves with the human heroes of GW1. Eventually, that rebellion succeeds.

 

So, fast forward to the present day:

* Humans and Charr have fought each other for a long time.

* That fighting led to the destruction of two human nations, Ascalon and (less directly) Orr.

BUT:

* Charr society has shifted radically since the start of the conflict.

* Human society is different, too: there are some people who trace their ancestry back to Ascalon and Orr, but for hundreds of years now they've been part of a new melting-pot kingdom of Kryta (composed, mainly, of ethnic Krytans, since many many people didn't survive the Searing or the Sinking of Orr). Ascalonian human culture is mostly concentrated in Ebonhawke, Ascalon Settlement, and the Rurikton district of Divinity's Reach. (Most of these are at least partly associated with Rurik's refugee faction, not Adelbren's let's-cause-the-Foefire-hyuk-hyuk faction).

* It's quite possible that humans as you see them in GW2 simply don't have any practical thing they could even *do* with Ascalon, if they reclaimed it. There probably aren't a million settlers all chomping at the bit to claim that land. And if you want to talk about "the future of humanity" or whatever, then the territorial instability of the Krytan frontier, the Elder Dragons, (before Path of Fire) the subjugation of Elona, and (after the core campaign) the Reclamantion of Orr, are all very pressing problems as well.

 

That's what makes the peace deal possible, though difficult.

Edited August 15, 2021 by ASP.8093

[Pax.3548]

On 8/13/2021 at 5:42 PM, Harak.8397 said:

Before being unceremoniously character assassinated and then flat out assassinated, Smodur the Unflinching was presented as a progressive leader who realized the war with the Ebonhawke enclave was pointless now that humans had settled into Kryta and the Charr had retaken and consolidated Ascalon. Thus as the others have said, with the looming threats both races faced, the Charr and elements among the humans made overtures towards a cease fire treaty and later something more permanent.

You utterly ruined your post if you're gonna spoil something like that to a new player, pls delete if you have at least a little consideration to other players experiences, even if you consider it bad

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 8/13/2021 at 4:15 PM, Morlu.8604 said:

Hey all,

 

Just started the game, and watched a brief youtube video behind the lore of GW1/bit of 2.

 

Why are the humans and charr allies? Is it because of a dragon that they decided to end a feud? 

I would imagine centuries of warfare was hard to just "forget" about. 

For the long story, read the novel Ghosts of Ascalon as this covers the beginnings and reasons for the cease fire.

 

The short version is: after Kralkatorrik woke up, the charr just had too many enemies to deal with (humans, ogres, Foefire ghosts, returning Flame Legion, and the brand new Branded), so they decided to negotiate with the one enemy that could be negotiated with - humans of Ebonhawke - to reduce the number of threats and give the charr of Ascalon an easier time to focus on the other threats that can't be dealt with. Ironically, this created the Separatists and Reneagdes - humans and charr (respectively) who refuse the ceasefire to the point of rebellion and criminal activity.

 

They aren't strictly allies at the start of the game, but rather merely under a ceasefire with negotiations of a formal truce underway. You can see the truce negotiations ongoing in Fields of Ruin and the Vigil storyline.

 

What happens when the threats to charr lessen is covered as a major subplot in the latest storyline, Icebrood Saga.

[Teratus.2859]

At the very beginning of Gw2 they're not allies at all.. more in a state of ceasefire for mutual benefit.
You can be part of this specific story as well if you choose to join the Vigil order.

In fact allies might a bit of a strong word to use for Humans and Charr tbh, at least when it comes to the politics of Humans and Charr.
At best the Human Charr political relationship can be described as an uneasy peace.. (others have given more than enough reason for why so I need not repeat it ^^) with some members of those races being far more open minded to working together for mutual benefit and general progress.
Many feeling that too much blood has been senselessly wasted already for no good reason and that it's time to move on and work together.

Most probably take the more neutral position, being glad the fighting is over and desiring the peace but still harbouring negative opinions and fears of the other race.
For the most part these people just want to live their lives segregated from the other race as much as possible..
Pretty much a live and let live mentality.

And then there are the donkeys of each race.. the radical, extremist factions who despise the other race so much that they won't accept or respect any peace between the Crown and the Legions.
These groups have made enemies of both the race they hate and their own and are regularly hunted down by Human soldiers and Legion soldiers alike.

On a more individual level there are many Charr and Humans that have gone their own way and have no affiliation/loyalties to the Legions and Human Kingdoms, instead work together outside them.
The 3 orders of Tyria for example include members from all races and backgrounds.
The Lionguard too is another faction that incorporates all races.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Harak.8397]

On 8/15/2021 at 12:59 PM, Pax.3548 said:

You utterly ruined your post if you're gonna spoil something like that to a new player, pls delete if you have at least a little consideration to other players experiences, even if you consider it bad

Good point, post amended.

[Imba.9451]

The funny thing to me is, that humans are described as a dwindling race in Tyria back in core gw2, when everything lorewise points towards the charr basically having drawn the short end of the stick. They bit of alot more than they could chew.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think the aforementioned cooperation with the Orders was also a large part of it.

 

Ultimately, it reached the point where both sides realised that they were fighting more out of reasons of history and pride, and that if they put that aside, they had more to gain from peace than war. Both had other enemies that, at the time, seemed implacable, enough that yet another front was something that neither really needed. As opposed to the state at the time of GW1, too, by the time of the truce negotiations there had been a long enough period of stalemate since the last atrocity, and enough human-charr cooperation elsewhere, that the two sides were actually starting to develop respect for each other and an understanding of how much they have in common and how much they have to gain by joining forces.

 

To the charr, it was pretty much a case that their choices came down to peace with the humans or the Flame Legion. Of the two options, the Flame Legion still wanted to control all of the charr, so Malice and Smodur pretty much came to the conclusion that humans were, at least, more trustworthy than the Flame Legion. Furthermore, the territory that Smodur ceded back to Ascalon is pretty much all territory between the Brand and the Blazeridge that would be very hard for the Iron Legion to continue to hold while the Brand was there. Might as well make a formal peace and make that side of the brand Ebonhawke's problem than risk Ebonhawke breaking a logistically impractical siege and taking everything east of the Brand anyway. It probably also helps that humans are still more magically potent than non-Flame charr (and probably more versatile even than the Flame Legion), so from a strategic picture, allying with humans provides an alternative to working with the Flame Legion for gaining magical resources.

 

For Kryta... between the centaurs to the north and Zhaitan threatening to start encroaching on the southern borders, as of the start of the game they were in a similar position of 'is this a battle worth continuing if it can be resolved another way'.

[Dante.1763]

8 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

The funny thing to me is, that humans are described as a dwindling race in Tyria back in core gw2, when everything lorewise points towards the charr basically having drawn the short end of the stick. They bit of alot more than they could chew.

Keep in mind of course that pretty much the whole area to the east of the Citadel is Charr Territory.

 

We havent really been to Ash or Blood Legion homelands, even Grothmar Valley is a small frsgment of the Bloodl Legions homelands(they could fit another 3-4 maps that size in the area) Much of which isnt explored in GW2.

 

Humans on Tyria(not the world, the continent) are dwindling, All thats left from 3 massive kingdoms is Divinitys Reach and the towns surrounding it.

 

Meanwhile the Charr only really have one foe now: the ghosts. Renegades are dealt with, ebonhawke has a treaty, and well Flame(avoiding spoilers). Leaving them with vast amounts of land to recover their losses from the civil war. Humans dont really have that luxury.

[voltaicbore.8012]

13 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Keep in mind of course that pretty much the whole area to the east of the Citadel is Charr Territory.

 

We havent really been to Ash or Blood Legion homelands, even Grothmar Valley is a small frsgment of the Bloodl Legions homelands(they could fit another 3-4 maps that size in the area) Much of which isnt explored in GW2.

 

Humans on Tyria(not the world, the continent) are dwindling, All thats left from 3 massive kingdoms is Divinitys Reach and the towns surrounding it.

 

Meanwhile the Charr only really have one foe now: the ghosts. Renegades are dealt with, ebonhawke has a treaty, and well Flame(avoiding spoilers). Leaving them with vast amounts of land to recover their losses from the civil war. Humans dont really have that luxury.

 

I fully agree with this assessment of the strategic map. TLDR; the Charr really can consider themselves the masters of most of the Ascalon maps, while Divinity's Reach struggles to maintain any semblance of control over things starting at the edges of Queensdale. Even though both societies can't really guarantee their people security outside their cities' walls, the differences in each society means that humanity's failure to do so is a near-complete failure to serve.

 

The human government seated in Divinity's Reach is a fairly weak state, incapable of securing much of anything outside the walls of the capital city, and with at least one minister based outside the walls capable of organizing a significant resistance to central authority.

 

To be fair, all of the playable races have similar security issues, which I assume has as much to do with gameplay rather than lore (in a well-administered state with safe roads and rapid/effective police response everywhere... there wouldn't be much of a combat game for us to play). However, the other societies are organized along very clearly defined priorities that make their weak states less of a dealbreaker:

1. Norn are individualistic or family-centered hunters who frankly have little need for a monolithic state to begin with,
2. Asura are engaged in all sorts of engineering and research outside the Ratas and securing those endeavors naturally falls to the krewes performing such work,
3. Sylvari are all about performing their individual Wyld Hunts which seem not to involve too much in the way of colonizing/exploiting territory that far outside the Grove, and
4. Charr resemble a military more than a standard IRL society where expeditionary forces outside the Citadel consider hostile environments par for the course.

Humanity, in contrast, doesn't appear to have a separate organizing principle outside of the standard "let's do things such that people can live safely, get by, and maybe do some cool stuff" sort of idea we are used to IRL. In this scenario, the failure of the state to establish basic, durable security for population centers against organized threats is also a failure to perform its central function. Divinity's Reach already struggles to keep centaurs (and to a lesser extend, bandits) suppressed at the edges of Queensdale, and significantly depends on the Lionguard to maintain any measure of passable roads in Kessex Hills and farther out. DR has essentially no stable control over Harathi Hinterlands, Brisban Wildlands, and Gendarran Fields (with the last at least falling under the protection of the Vigil and LA). Of course you'll see the Seraph posted throughout these maps.... largely failing to secure the area lol.

 

Compared to how things used to be on the continent (the once-mighty builders of Ascalon and the god-hosting people of Orr), what remains of humanity is truly just a shadow of it used to be.

Edited August 24, 2021 by voltaicbore.8012

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The story tends to be Human-centric at times (except for that period when it was Sylvari-centric) so its easy to forget that Humans are basically nothing in Guild Wars universe now. Their Gods are gone, they've lost three of their kingdoms and the last kingdom (that we can visit) has been nearly destroyed by outlaws, Centaurs and White Mantle, and essentially the only thing that keeps Humans relevant in Tyria is that players easily identify with them.

 

Maybe there's still a strong Human kingdom left in Cantha--we don't know how things have gone there. But Ascalon is completely gone, Orr is not only gone but everyone was turned into monsters, and Elona was nearly completely destroyed by Joko and what wasn't was subjugated to the point of seeing the Awakened as angels.

 

Meanwhile you're asking why a race that controls the entire eastern side of the Tyrian continent, of which we've visited maybe one-third of their lands, has technology far superior to Humanity--who mostly live on farmlands now just to survive--doesn't want a ceasefire especially when at the start of the game they have many enemies to contend with including the Ascalonian ghosts, Branded, Flame Legion and Renegades.

 

Not only this, but most Charr casualties were to ghosts who just reform anyway, which was essentially dying for nothing. And this was their price to pay for defeating Humanity in Ascalon, generations upon generations of senseless military deaths just to keep their civilian population alive.

 

You think they're down for more of that?

Edited August 24, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Fipmip.7219]

5 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

The story tends to be Human-centric at times (except for that period when it was Sylvari-centric) so its easy to forget that Humans are basically nothing in Guild Wars universe now. Their Gods are gone, they've lost three of their kingdoms and the last kingdom (that we can visit) has been nearly destroyed by outlaws, Centaurs and White Mantle, and essentially the only thing that keeps Humans relevant in Tyria is that players easily identify with them.

 

Maybe there's still a strong Human kingdom left in Cantha--we don't know how things have gone there. But Ascalon is completely gone, Orr is not only gone but everyone was turned into monsters, and Elona was nearly completely destroyed by Joko and what wasn't was subjugated to the point of seeing the Awakened as angels.

 

Meanwhile you're asking why a race that controls the entire eastern side of the Tyrian continent, of which we've visited maybe one-third of their lands, has technology far superior to Humanity--who mostly live on farmlands now just to survive--doesn't want a ceasefire especially when at the start of the game they have many enemies to contend with including the Ascalonian ghosts, Branded, Flame Legion and Renegades.

 

Not only this, but most Charr casualties were to ghosts who just reform anyway, which was essentially dying for nothing. And this was their price to pay for defeating Humanity in Ascalon, generations upon generations of senseless military deaths just to keep their civilian population alive.

 

You think they're down for more of that?

do charr really own everything east of elona? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/18/ec/70/18ec702c1379f64b928473ac851ce680.jpg

 

I don't know much about the lore of anything east of elona and can't find much about it so some source would be nice. Other than that all I know is that of the playable races, kryta elona and cantha are largely dominated by humans.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Fipmip.7219

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

 

I fully agree with this assessment of the strategic map. TLDR; the Charr really can consider themselves the masters of most of the Ascalon maps, while Divinity's Reach struggles to maintain any semblance of control over things starting at the edges of Queensdale. Even though both societies can't really guarantee their people security outside their cities' walls, the differences in each society means that humanity's failure to do so is a near-complete failure to serve.

 

The human government seated in Divinity's Reach is a fairly weak state, incapable of securing much of anything outside the walls of the capital city, and with at least one minister based outside the walls capable of organizing a significant resistance to central authority.

 

To be fair, all of the playable races have similar security issues, which I assume has as much to do with gameplay rather than lore (in a well-administered state with safe roads and rapid/effective police response everywhere... there wouldn't be much of a combat game for us to play). However, the other societies are organized along very clearly defined priorities that make their weak states less of a dealbreaker:

1. Norn are individualistic or family-centered hunters who frankly have little need for a monolithic state to begin with,
2. Asura are engaged in all sorts of engineering and research outside the Ratas and securing those endeavors naturally falls to the krewes performing such work,
3. Sylvari are all about performing their individual Wyld Hunts which seem not to involve too much in the way of colonizing/exploiting territory that far outside the Grove, and
4. Charr resemble a military more than a standard IRL society where expeditionary forces outside the Citadel consider hostile environments par for the course.

Humanity, in contrast, doesn't appear to have a separate organizing principle outside of the standard "let's do things such that people can live safely, get by, and maybe do some cool stuff" sort of idea we are used to IRL. In this scenario, the failure of the state to establish basic, durable security for population centers against organized threats is also a failure to perform its central function. Divinity's Reach already struggles to keep centaurs (and to a lesser extend, bandits) suppressed at the edges of Queensdale, and significantly depends on the Lionguard to maintain any measure of passable roads in Kessex Hills and farther out. DR has essentially no stable control over Harathi Hinterlands, Brisban Wildlands, and Gendarran Fields (with the last at least falling under the protection of the Vigil and LA). Of course you'll see the Seraph posted throughout these maps.... largely failing to secure the area lol.

 

Compared to how things used to be on the continent (the once-mighty builders of Ascalon and the god-hosting people of Orr), what remains of humanity is truly just a shadow of it used to be.

I think you are being a bit harsh on Kryta there, although I should go into spoiler mode to discuss it:

 

Spoiler

The thing with Kryta is that their storyline is essentially a Star Wars prequels storyline. Until shortly before the game started, contractions to Kryta's boundaries of actual control occurred as the result of major disasters such as the tsunami caused by Zhaitan's rise. Even in the early years of Jennah's reign, the boundaries were largely stable - there was pressure from centaurs, but there had pretty much always been pressure from centaurs. You can see this in, for instance, the Harathi Hinterlands, where dialogue on the map indicates that the region was still mostly Krytan-controlled until just before the start of the game. That's why there are so many human prisoners being held by centaurs in the map - that's the civilian population that lived there a year or two before (or what's left of it). In Edge of Destiny, for instance, the centaurs are presented as something of a "well they exist", without being the existential threat they are at the start of the game - in fact, I had the impression that Jennah was actually considering increasing her commitment to the war against the charr until the events towards the end of the book.

 

What becomes incredibly clear if you've done S3E4 (if it wasn't before), though, was that Caudecus was trying to pull a Palpatine, manufacturing crises to make the existing government look bad in order to seize power. This involved undermining the Seraph, provoking the Ulgoth into making it personal, sponsoring outlaws (those that weren't White Mantle agents to begin with) and possibly most importantly for the start-of-game situation, informing the centaurs of secret routes into Kryta that allowed them to sweep past the front lines and make it as Shaemoor with little warning. Said cantaurs, plus bandits, represent the majority of the threats within Kryta's formal borders.

 

There's evidence in the storyline that Kryta largely stabilised before Zhaitan's death, due to the death of the Ulgoth and due to Caudecus being put into protective custody. Not completely, of course - there was still political instability - but it's worth keeping in mind that Season 2 started with Kryta essentially staking a claim on the eastern Brisban Wildlands - not the sort of logistics-intensive expedition you commit to when your capital is in a "not quite a siege, but we can't rely on the caravans the way we used to" state. The threat isn't gone, as acknowledged at the summit, but that has an air of the writers wanting every leader to raise an objection: until the summit, Jennah seemed to be the leader most invested in the summit short of the Pale Tree herself.

And then the White Mantle gets taken out in S3, and apart from Joko's gate assaults and Elder Dragon shenanigans in Icebrood Saga, we've had no indication of Kryta having problems since. Instead, we see Kryta making contributions to conflicts that are happening elsewhere such as Drizzlewood Coast.

 

Overall, I suspect that, generally speaking, Kryta is probably the safest part of "core Tyria" outside of the cities and the Dominion of Winds (although even they supposedly had Destroyer problems). It's just that, as you noted, ArenaNet would have wanted all of the starting regions to have danger for gameplay reasons. Everywhere else, that danger is pretty much a constant - the charr have all the problems we've discussed, while the norn, asura, and sylvari don't really try to control territory much more than a zone away from their capitals. It's likely that, outside of the period between 1324 and 1330AE, Kryta actually had, and now has again, a fairly solid grip over its territory, it's just that we don't see it because the maps are frozen in that time period. Apart from the dragon response missions, and I don't recall seeing any centaurs still hanging around either of those. And we probably won't, because a map that is all "yeah, the Krytans pretty much control this region now except for maybe the odd outlaw, and even they aren't the threat they were now that their sponsors are gone" probably won't be all that interesting except maybe as a celebration event venue.

 

32 minutes ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

do charr really own everything east of elona? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/18/ec/70/18ec702c1379f64b928473ac851ce680.jpg

 

I don't know much about the lore of anything east of elona and can't find much about it so some source would be nice. Other than that all I know is that of the playable races, kryta elona and cantha are largely dominated by humans.

Yeah, claiming that they own the entire east of the continent is an exaggeration. We know that they hold a lot more than we've been shown (we still haven't seen an Ash Legion homeland, although I get the impression they're nomadic so it might be quite large in terms of area), but at least in GW1's time, the wilderness northeast of Vabbi seemed to be more harpy and heket territory than charr. We probably can say, based on the trade routes, that there are no human realms east of Elona, but there's no evidence suggesting that the charr hold all of it.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 hour ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

do charr really own everything east of elona? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/18/ec/70/18ec702c1379f64b928473ac851ce680.jpg

 

I don't know much about the lore of anything east of elona and can't find much about it so some source would be nice. Other than that all I know is that of the playable races, kryta elona and cantha are largely dominated by humans.

Humans aren't native to Tyria, Sylvari are a recently born race, Asura lived undergorund and the Norn stuck to the Far Sihverpeaks, so historically Charr controlled all of Tyria (the continent, not planet). The war with the Humans pushed them further east until they reclaimed Ascalon with the Searing.

 

The question hasn't been answered in modern lore, but we also haven't seen anything that could challenge them since they won the Charr-Human war. The Elder Dragons all seem mostly located in western Tyria, for some unknown reason, except for Bubbles whose in the Unending Ocean somewhere.

 

Charr are essentially the most native intelligent race of Tyria, what Humans are on Earth. There was the Dwarves, but they died out, and others like the Jotun haven't had a civilisation for thousands of years.

 

To put this into perspective, all three legions each come form separate "kingdoms" the size of Kryta. What we see in game is just the Iron Legion territories and a single map from Blood Legion Homelands. The Flame Legion lands also extend beyond the Citadel of Flame--Fireheart Rise is just the Iron-Flame border.

 

The only reason the race seems so weak in-game is because they tend to suffer heavy losses for various reasons, but mostly due to some very backwards ways in their society, which is partially addressed in IBS.

 

Its also not uncommon in Charr society for even children to be killed, and most of their enemies like ghosts and Branded result in alot of "empty" deaths compared to fighting a living opponent. Its so bad that they would barely even commit troops for Modremoth even with the Iron Marches being invaded.

 

Humans on the other hand haven't had to fight anything that doens't die permanently.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[voltaicbore.8012]

29 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think you are being a bit harsh on Kryta there, although I should go into spoiler mode to discuss it:

 

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The thing with Kryta is that their storyline is essentially a Star Wars prequels storyline. Until shortly before the game started, contractions to Kryta's boundaries of actual control occurred as the result of major disasters such as the tsunami caused by Zhaitan's rise. Even in the early years of Jennah's reign, the boundaries were largely stable - there was pressure from centaurs, but there had pretty much always been pressure from centaurs. You can see this in, for instance, the Harathi Hinterlands, where dialogue on the map indicates that the region was still mostly Krytan-controlled until just before the start of the game. That's why there are so many human prisoners being held by centaurs in the map - that's the civilian population that lived there a year or two before (or what's left of it). In Edge of Destiny, for instance, the centaurs are presented as something of a "well they exist", without being the existential threat they are at the start of the game - in fact, I had the impression that Jennah was actually considering increasing her commitment to the war against the charr until the events towards the end of the book.

 

What becomes incredibly clear if you've done S3E4 (if it wasn't before), though, was that Caudecus was trying to pull a Palpatine, manufacturing crises to make the existing government look bad in order to seize power. This involved undermining the Seraph, provoking the Ulgoth into making it personal, sponsoring outlaws (those that weren't White Mantle agents to begin with) and possibly most importantly for the start-of-game situation, informing the centaurs of secret routes into Kryta that allowed them to sweep past the front lines and make it as Shaemoor with little warning. Said cantaurs, plus bandits, represent the majority of the threats within Kryta's formal borders.

 

There's evidence in the storyline that Kryta largely stabilised before Zhaitan's death, due to the death of the Ulgoth and due to Caudecus being put into protective custody. Not completely, of course - there was still political instability - but it's worth keeping in mind that Season 2 started with Kryta essentially staking a claim on the eastern Brisban Wildlands - not the sort of logistics-intensive expedition you commit to when your capital is in a "not quite a siege, but we can't rely on the caravans the way we used to" state. The threat isn't gone, as acknowledged at the summit, but that has an air of the writers wanting every leader to raise an objection: until the summit, Jennah seemed to be the leader most invested in the summit short of the Pale Tree herself.

And then the White Mantle gets taken out in S3, and apart from Joko's gate assaults and Elder Dragon shenanigans in Icebrood Saga, we've had no indication of Kryta having problems since. Instead, we see Kryta making contributions to conflicts that are happening elsewhere such as Drizzlewood Coast.

 

Overall, I suspect that, generally speaking, Kryta is probably the safest part of "core Tyria" outside of the cities and the Dominion of Winds (although even they supposedly had Destroyer problems). It's just that, as you noted, ArenaNet would have wanted all of the starting regions to have danger for gameplay reasons. Everywhere else, that danger is pretty much a constant - the charr have all the problems we've discussed, while the norn, asura, and sylvari don't really try to control territory much more than a zone away from their capitals. It's likely that, outside of the period between 1324 and 1330AE, Kryta actually had, and now has again, a fairly solid grip over its territory, it's just that we don't see it because the maps are frozen in that time period. Apart from the dragon response missions, and I don't recall seeing any centaurs still hanging around either of those. And we probably won't, because a map that is all "yeah, the Krytans pretty much control this region now except for maybe the odd outlaw, and even they aren't the threat they were now that their sponsors are gone" probably won't be all that interesting except maybe as a celebration event venue.

 

Yeah, claiming that they own the entire east of the continent is an exaggeration. We know that they hold a lot more than we've been shown (we still haven't seen an Ash Legion homeland, although I get the impression they're nomadic so it might be quite large in terms of area), but at least in GW1's time, the wilderness northeast of Vabbi seemed to be more harpy and heket territory than charr. We probably can say, based on the trade routes, that there are no human realms east of Elona, but there's no evidence suggesting that the charr hold all of it.

 

Yeah the maps frozen in time thing was something I considered addressing, but decided not to wade into that morass. Thankfully you brought it up and did the legwork though lol.

 

Since we can't see what the new maps look like, it's all speculation, but I firmly believe they would still reflect an enormously weak state. The territorial 'control', in my opinion, would be more 'current lack of organized threat' and less 'capacity to effectively put down threats.' My impressions could of course be deeply biased because of player character involvement in all the major suppressive events,  which in turn is an artificial developer response to the artificial need for disorder required by the game. setting. A narrative written without those artificial pressures could easily support a Kryta that could handle all of that.

 

The muddiness between what is "really" going on vs. what we get in-game due to GW2 being... a game is why I didn't initially feel like addressing the map stuff. I guess it's kind of unavoidable though. Anyways my larger point was that Charr/Asura/Norn/Sylvari 'control' isn't any better than Kryta's, but those societies seem to be organized in a manner such that the insufficiency of control stings less. There seems to be no warband/krewe/homestead/wyld hunt structure in place for humans that replicates the functions of central authority the farther you get from the center. Therefore the (currently in-game observable) weakness of those states seems more forgivable than Kryta's.

 

I'm thinking too hard about it though. I'm just glad my characters have good reason to go around beating things up on maps.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

28 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Since we can't see what the new maps look like, it's all speculation, but I firmly believe they would still reflect an enormously weak state.

I disagree in here - it could be a case if Kryta was still only relying on footsoldiers alone to do the job when it comes to defending their territory, but it is no longer a case since LWS: Watchknights, (first featured in LWS1, and the featured again in LWS3, and lastly in IBS) has shown themselves to be combatant on par with jade constructs, and it would be only logical that Kryta would build more of these over time. Also "enormously weak state" does not sent contingents to support other governments in their civil wars, as Kryta did in IBS, and we see Kryta able to liberatelly deploy their watchknights all over the place with IBS seraph support. Again, not a sign of "an enormously weak state".

 

I agree that at this point in time Kryta may be the safest place in tyria - humans are the only race in the game that has managed to completely deal with their internal antagonists within the story.

Meanwhile: Inquest is still mentioned to be going considerably well, even with the heavy losses they sustained during LWS4, Ghosts of Ascalon - still a threat - we didn't hear much of the nightmare court since hot to be fair - but that storyline was not officially concluded, so they are not out of the picture just yet, You could argue that sons of svanir should fall apart over time since Jormag's death, but untill they are addressed as fully gone they are still there.

[draxynnic.3719]

57 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Humans aren't native to Tyria, Sylvari are a recently born race, Asura lived undergorund and the Norn stuck to the Far Sihverpeaks, so historically Charr controlled all of Tyria (the continent, not planet). The war with the Humans pushed them further east until they reclaimed Ascalon with the Searing.

 

The question hasn't been answered in modern lore, but we also haven't seen anything that could challenge them since they won the Charr-Human war. The Elder Dragons all seem mostly located in western Tyria, for some unknown reason, except for Bubbles whose in the Unending Ocean somewhere.

Just because we don't know what's out there, doesn't mean there's nothing out there and that we can safely assume the charr just control a region that's twice as large as the currently playable zone and which represents about half of the land area of the entire planet. 

 

Tyria seems to have a wide range of sapient races. Every time we've first visited a new part of the world, in fact, we've encountered new sapient races that we hadn't seen before, or at the very least a new variant of an existing race. Chances are high that the charr at least have competition in the east.

 

40 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

 

Yeah the maps frozen in time thing was something I considered addressing, but decided not to wade into that morass. Thankfully you brought it up and did the legwork though lol.

 

Since we can't see what the new maps look like, it's all speculation, but I firmly believe they would still reflect an enormously weak state. The territorial 'control', in my opinion, would be more 'current lack of organized threat' and less 'capacity to effectively put down threats.' My impressions could of course be deeply biased because of player character involvement in all the major suppressive events,  which in turn is an artificial developer response to the artificial need for disorder required by the game. setting. A narrative written without those artificial pressures could easily support a Kryta that could handle all of that.

 

The muddiness between what is "really" going on vs. what we get in-game due to GW2 being... a game is why I didn't initially feel like addressing the map stuff. I guess it's kind of unavoidable though. Anyways my larger point was that Charr/Asura/Norn/Sylvari 'control' isn't any better than Kryta's, but those societies seem to be organized in a manner such that the insufficiency of control stings less. There seems to be no warband/krewe/homestead/wyld hunt structure in place for humans that replicates the functions of central authority the farther you get from the center. Therefore the (currently in-game observable) weakness of those states seems more forgivable than Kryta's.

 

I'm thinking too hard about it though. I'm just glad my characters have good reason to go around beating things up on maps.

Again, I think that the state at the start of the game needs to take into account that a powerful and influential figure in the government was deliberately undermining the state. At the start of the game, Caudecus is pulling a Palpatine, and he's almost certainly doing so with the assumption that once he was back in control and no longer undermining the system, than Kryta's resources would still be up to the task of defending its borders, even if those borders might have contracted a little. He might be underestimating the threats and therefore overestimating his ability to get back in control afterwards, but he's doing what he's doing on the assumption that there will still be a Kryta to rule afterwards.

 

Otherwise, if you look at Kryta's history since the Battle for Lion's Arch, it's been fairly stable and secure apart from the period of Zhaitan's rise and the period of the start of the game, with the war in Ascalon being the main draw on Kryta's manpower and resources for most of that range. It's Caudecus' machinations that have brought it to the point where it makes an interesting adventuring location. With Caudecus gone, the only reason it wouldn't be expected to bounce back is casualties taken in the process - something that's hard to quantify, but as @Lord Trejgon.2809 noted, the defenders of Kryta have further developed their force multipliers since. Watchknights, alliance with the Charr probably means access to Charr-built weapons, and it seems that Kryta also supplied some of the airships that were destroyed in Heart of Thorns (didn't see any in Lake Doric, but that's probably because they hadn't had the opportunity to get more).

 

The start of the game was intended to be a low-point in Kryta's history. It's not representative of the state of Kryta overall.

 

Incidentally, Kryta's settlements do have local leadership. Usually separate civilian and military leaders apart from dedicated military outposts, in fact. They're supposed to report back to Divinity's Reach in the end, but that's no different to charr being supposed to ultimately report back to their Imperator.

[Dante.1763]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Just because we don't know what's out there, doesn't mean there's nothing out there and that we can safely assume the charr just control a region that's twice as large as the currently playable zone and which represents about half of the land area of the entire planet. 

 

Tyria seems to have a wide range of sapient races. Every time we've first visited a new part of the world, in fact, we've encountered new sapient races that we hadn't seen before, or at the very least a new variant of an existing race. Chances are high that the charr at least have competition in the east.

 

Again, I think that the state at the start of the game needs to take into account that a powerful and influential figure in the government was deliberately undermining the state. At the start of the game, Caudecus is pulling a Palpatine, and he's almost certainly doing so with the assumption that once he was back in control and no longer undermining the system, than Kryta's resources would still be up to the task of defending its borders, even if those borders might have contracted a little. He might be underestimating the threats and therefore overestimating his ability to get back in control afterwards, but he's doing what he's doing on the assumption that there will still be a Kryta to rule afterwards.

 

Otherwise, if you look at Kryta's history since the Battle for Lion's Arch, it's been fairly stable and secure apart from the period of Zhaitan's rise and the period of the start of the game, with the war in Ascalon being the main draw on Kryta's manpower and resources for most of that range. It's Caudecus' machinations that have brought it to the point where it makes an interesting adventuring location. With Caudecus gone, the only reason it wouldn't be expected to bounce back is casualties taken in the process - something that's hard to quantify, but as @Lord Trejgon.2809 noted, the defenders of Kryta have further developed their force multipliers since. Watchknights, alliance with the Charr probably means access to Charr-built weapons, and it seems that Kryta also supplied some of the airships that were destroyed in Heart of Thorns (didn't see any in Lake Doric, but that's probably because they hadn't had the opportunity to get more).

 

The start of the game was intended to be a low-point in Kryta's history. It's not representative of the state of Kryta overall.

 

Incidentally, Kryta's settlements do have local leadership. Usually separate civilian and military leaders apart from dedicated military outposts, in fact. They're supposed to report back to Divinity's Reach in the end, but that's no different to charr being supposed to ultimately report back to their Imperator.

Just to add: the charr have crushed one sapient species beside humans pretty badly. The Grawl, which we know also owned a big portion of what is now Charr territory. Yes they still exist, but they arent more than little tribes and kept in check to the point they dont even get mentioned as more than an annoyance.

 

And an edit: we also have forgotten the "ghostbore" weaponry from the story that the PC invented, amd which was getting moved to production(pc can chose between a massive cannon like we see all over or deployabe turrets, i see no reason why it wouldnt expand to both after some time.) It prevents the ghosts from reforming as "fast" as they did. We dont know how long it takes lore wise for that, but it was a huge deal.

i agree that they dont own most of the continent, just whats east and north of the current territory in game, which..still gives them a sizeable kingdom far surpassing DR, and well, they can probably recover losses faster than any other species.

Keep in mind we also dont know how much theyve progressed. The old maps dont get updated(not a bad thing mind for gameplay, but it leaves lore questions)and the brand is no more, meaning they could easily reclaim at least 4 or 5 villages in decent shape, and another 2-3 needing rebuilt.

It would be nice if Anet wrote out a lore book for each map, doing a before and after.

Its proabably safe to say that also extends to the human Kingdom, the lands to the direct west and north of DR is also probably under Human control, we just havent been there yet, and who knows how controlled it is.

 

If anything the Norn and Asura are the most reduced in the current time, but with Jormag and primordous dying they can perhaps move to recover their own lands finally.

 

And for the sylvari, while the nightmare court wasnt officially ended its probably safe to say its no more. Their leadership all got killed in the dungeon paths(including the now cut path) which showed that fairly well. Faolin was one of the few who escaped that place and she got murderfied in HOT.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Dante.1763