Should clones and phantasm be indestructible?

One of the biggest complaints about playing Mesmer is how in large scale PvE or WvW events the clone/phantasm gameplay becomes impossible to use because the illusions simply die before they can do damage, even before the phantasm can perform its skill, nevermind turn cloney and shatter.

So I was wondering what it would take for clones and phantasm to be immune to damage so they become viable (relatively) in these two areas of the game.

I was thinking that clones would have to become more distinguishable from the Mesmer to alleviate the complaints of how annoying it can be to find the real Mesmer (L2P comments aside).

What else, if anything? Is this even a viable idea? Do you think it would help or even make any difference or cause problems.

I just hate that my main character becomes so unplayable and ineffectual in these large scale gameplay areas and would like to find some real solutions.

E-specs could and should have fixed this problem

Chronomancer with AoE wells and effects could and should have fixed this problem

Mirage with larger-scaled "oasis-like-illusions" could and should have fixed this problem

this could and should have been fixed long ago, it's one of the reasons i stopped playing, i liked to WvW with my guild, but that got no attention in place of other areas of the game like small skirmishes in spvp and pve content

WvW was the game mode that could have been so unique to many other games out there right now, and they just.... neglected it, honestly

instead, both of Mesmer's E-Specs were turned into more duelists

duelists, the things Mesmers already where

we were told E-Specs would give us something "new" to play with, instead we just got more padding onto what this class already was

pretty disheartening, to be quite honest

Sure. Phantasm style re-work for entire clone generation and shatter mechanic.

Rework skills and traits that summon clones to generate resource (purple bubble UI element) only instead. When shatter is activated, resource is consumed to generate equivalent number of clones around the Mesmer; summoned clones then perform shatter, running to target as needed. Clones are skill animation/delivery-mechanism elements only and are thus non-targetable and non-destructable. Similarly, phantasms are non-targetable and non-destructable as well, also becoming a skill animation/delivery-mechanism only. Add a 0.5 sec delay to F1 and F2 (see Scourge) for counterplay at melee range. Resource fades when out of combat (how clones work now) and cannot be carried around when out of combat. Re-visit skills and traits as needed (Infinite Horizon and de-target for example).

Flattens the counterplay curve for opponents at various skill levels by removing persistent UI clutter and instant cast damage while increasing delivery consistency.

There’re no reason why they shouldn’t be indestructible. The base Mesmer and Chronomancer clones don’t do much damage, they are only generated to shatter. The only place this could be a problem is the Mirage where indestructible clones may pile on conditions with no counterplay- but then the Scourge shades are also untargetable and the counterplay is to kill the Scourge. So it could be the same in Mesmer clones as well, let the clones expire after a set amount of time like 15-20 seconds and make them untargetable. The concept of illusions that can be damaged is not logical, they are by definition illusions, they don’t actually exist. This would indeed allow the Mesmer to affect an area around them, and if the staff clones survive for 15-20 seconds, they can cause conditions and boons to spread over a large area, allowing them to be viable in WvW maybe. Same with phantasms, they definitely should not have been targetable in the first place, that’s just a stupid idea. The phantasms are a method of delivering skill effect that’s all, making them targetable is the same as giving the enemy a free interrupt on the Mesmer’s skill by just killing it before it deals damage. That’s just bad design.

Clones - No. This will make Condi stacking clones extremely strong.

Phantasms - A thousand times yes.Mesmer does not deserve to have a cooldown based skill being potentially cancelled due to it being killed by random AoE or focus fire or even interrupted by CC.

Phantasms should be allowed to be untargetable and unkillable for the entire cast of their skill, then turned into a Clone and made available for targetting.

Clones? No, that'd be super broken. Mirage Axe clones with constant Torment stacking. Sword clones constantly ripping boons. With nothing you could do about it. Not to mention, having Mesmer clones being able to solo tank literally anything in the game because lulinvincible (Like, moreso than current)

That said, being invincible after you've used a Shatter (So they're running towards the target to blow themselves up) should be fine.

Phantasms, yeah, untargettable and invincible for sure. Given that they basically take the place of a skill that does damage and summons a clone by doing the skill themselves then becoming one. Right now, it's as if Ranger used Maul but then someone could kill or CC a separate entity to stop it from working...

To be honest, they could make Phantasms non-entities entirely. Simply make them into a skill animation that triggers after your initial skill usage. Given that's all they are since their major rework from being permenant and taking up a Clone spot.

@Yasai.3549 said:Clones - No. This will make Condi stacking clones extremely strong.

Respectfully disagree, they should be invulnerable, show as such when hit (then maybe players that can't learn to play can see they are targeting the wrong one finally), but they should also DEAL zero damage and inflict no conditions. And all traits related to clones dealing damage or conditions should be reworked to improve shatters.

Phantasms - A thousand times yes.Mesmer does not deserve to have a cooldown based skill being potentially cancelled due to it being killed by random AoE or focus fire or even interrupted by CC.

Phantasms should be allowed to be untargetable and unkillable for the entire cast of their skill, then turned into a Clone and made available for targetting.

100% agree, with the noted change as above.

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

Respectfully disagree, they should be invulnerable, show as such when hit (then maybe players that can't learn to play can see they are targeting the wrong one finally), but they should also DEAL zero damage and inflict no conditions. And all traits related to clones dealing damage or conditions should be reworked to improve shatters.

Such a change will severely shaft all pve condi mesmer builds.Clones provide a decent amount of Condi application as well as uptime, simply buffing shatters to compensate will not bring back that uptime.

No, I think Clones should be left as it is now.

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

Respectfully disagree, they should be invulnerable, show as such when hit (then maybe players that can't learn to play can see they are targeting the wrong one finally), but they should also DEAL zero damage and inflict no conditions. And all traits related to clones dealing damage or conditions should be reworked to improve shatters.

The biggest problem with clones in the situations I bring up in the OP, is that they die before you can even shatter them. I suppose a middle ground would be to make them unaffected by GBAoE but I'm not sure that would be enough.

I just came back to the game again recently and was doing the rock concert event that new(ish) map from Icebrood Prologue and showed up with only around 10% health left on the boss. Summoning Berserker resulted in no damage since they die from all the AoE from the boss, I had to frantically spam my auto attack before it died so I would get credit for the event. It just brought back all the annoyances from months/years ago.

All in all I am happy to see that the idea isn't terribly flawed, and most people agree with some form of it, even if disagreeing on the details of implementation.

Clones should be immune to all damage until shattered for Mesmer and Chrono.

The same is said for Mirage but make IH baseline and once you use an ambush ability, they disappear. No other thought about shatters but maybe after they ambush they trigger count towards being a shattered clone.

Phantasms should be killable.

@phokus.8934 said:Clones should be immune to all damage until shattered for Mesmer and Chrono.

The same is said for Mirage but make IH baseline and once you use an ambush ability, they disappear. No other thought about shatters but maybe after they ambush they trigger count towards being a shattered clone.

Phantasms should be killable.

A different angle for sure. My issue with this idea would be this: phantasms are a large source of clones, maybe even the largest. When phantasms die early, not only is their damage negated but also they don't become clones, further negating much of your shatter damage/utility.

I think this is why phantasms should be immune to damage if I had to pick between them and clones. Although for the two examples in the OP, I think both is still the best option in my mind (with a rework on traits etc...)

they dont have to be immune, its pushing it too far.we dont have to work with absolutes, make illusions and phantasms scale with mesmers hp/toughness.If I have 16k hp base, and illusions have 2,4kthen if I increase my hp to 20k (25% increase ), illusions should have 3k (25% increase )same should go for phantasms. those shitters have 3,3k hp if my memory serves me right, they WILL die to random aoe.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:they dont have to be immune, its pushing it too far.we dont have to work with absolutes, make illusions and phantasms scale with mesmers hp/toughness.If I have 16k hp base, and illusions have 2,4kthen if I increase my hp to 20k (25% increase ), illusions should have 3k (25% increase )same should go for phantasms. those kitten have 3,3k hp if my memory serves me right, they WILL die to random aoe.

I'm not sure an additional 600 health will help those illusions survive.

However I'm not opposed to this in principle. The health amounts would have to be much greater though for them to be effective in large scale fights. Like if clones need to survive for 5-10 seconds for a shatter, how much health do you think they would need to not be obliterated within that time in large AoE WvW fields, or giant boss fights?

To make illusions immune to dmg would be to much in my opinion. Vomiting clones is a problem right now and transforming them into indestructible AOE mines that follow the target is beyond op. Imagine chrono with time catches up, hybrid build and deceptive evasion. The idea is funny but the outcome would make people quit this game faster then ever.

@Taril.8619 That was a great way you put it! That is what I wanted to say, the phantasms are no longer permanent and now only act as a skill animation, they exist mainly for flavour. Punishing the Mesmer for being an illusionist is just bad design, phantasms must be indestructible, there can be no reasonable argument against it. As for illusions, either make them immune to AoE damage, take significantly reduced damage from AoE or make them indestructible but they only last for 15-20 seconds, shatter before then or lose them.Shades cannot be killed, can be moved quickly and put out so many conditions and CC far quicker than clones can. You cannot shatter clones for condition and CC at the same time but shades can do all that rapid-fire.Let clones also disappear in a short time and be invulnerable, making them targetable is like allowing the Firebrand Tomes to be grabbed and thrown away by the enemy. It’s just bad design.Basically I don’t care which path they choose as long as clones survive for 15 seconds minimum in WvW zergs and phantasms are invulnerable and untargetable by both NPC and players.

I think that would be much too strong. Perhaps their hp could be increased slightly, but destroying clones and phantasms should remain legitimate counter play to Mesmer. To help Mesmers become relevant in zerg fights perhaps something else should be considered, but I don't know what. Laser beam Mirage was the closest yet, damage wise. Expand on that. Perhaps a new Mirage trait that slightly increases radius and target cap on the great sword pew pew. Or maybe finally bringing back glamour builds.

I demand glamour builds!

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:they dont have to be immune, its pushing it too far.we dont have to work with absolutes, make illusions and phantasms scale with mesmers hp/toughness.If I have 16k hp base, and illusions have 2,4kthen if I increase my hp to 20k (25% increase ), illusions should have 3k (25% increase )same should go for phantasms. those kitten have 3,3k hp if my memory serves me right, they WILL die to random aoe.

This is just further incentivizing bunker-tastic "cancer" builds without giving Mez any better tools for big fights, though.

@dandamanno.4136 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:they dont have to be immune, its pushing it too far.we dont have to work with absolutes, make illusions and phantasms scale with mesmers hp/toughness.If I have 16k hp base, and illusions have 2,4kthen if I increase my hp to 20k (25% increase ), illusions should have 3k (25% increase )same should go for phantasms. those kitten have 3,3k hp if my memory serves me right, they WILL die to random aoe.

then give wvw unique buff that reduces damage taken for clones per enemy in large radius.10% dmg reduction, for every enemy above 3. up to 70% maximum.they still die but they would be able to survive for up to 5s. and even if they dont they would soak some damage and provide at least some value that way.

The whole idea of illusions is a mess. A class relies on fragile npcs wich can be executed without cast time. What a joke. If the enemy is close to clones it’s instant dmg, if the enemy is to far away it can be outplayed by just pressing W or pure dmg. The idea is great but nothing more. You can’t tell me there is something skilled around it because it’s about positioning.

And the amount of clones you can produce in the current state of the game is either 0 if you play against more then 3 people because they die instantly or over 9000 (haha...) if you play against someone with not enough aoe.

We should consider getting rid of this spammy mechanic instead of drive up the HP or try to fix it in the first place. We had 8 years to fix it, it’s time to let it go.

Heck I would be happy if we would change the whole mechanic and get away from the idea that clones should do the shatter dmg. Change clones to Phantasm like npcs. Let them execute one attack and let them die. Or let them just cast boons or what ever. Let the Mesmer do an attack with cast time instead of shatter and let it scale with the amount of clones you summoned, maybe a little bit like the adrenaline mechanic from warrior without adrenaline but with clones. I mean you could still let the clone-count be opponent dependent and cap it at 3. I really don’t care at this point what we get but I’m sick of the current system.

Give clones a a god damn purpose and make them more valuable but get rid of all the things that let Mesmer spam shit like this. All it does is preventing good balance changes. 8 Fucking years and we still discuss how to make them viable, I can’t believe it.

Here's a weird idea.

A lot of folks argue that the core problem is all your clones and phantasms just get popped instantly in bigger fights with all the AOE and cleave popping off all over. So…

What if you make clones only "real" to the person they're targeted on? Maybe everyone else just sees a barely-visible, non-clickable thing.

There's a couple of challenges there with, like, IH + Split Surge. (And with AOE phantasms if you do a similar thing to Phantasms.) But overall you don't have to change that much to suddenly make a lot of traits more useful for big battles and team fights (clones dying less) at the expense of some 1vX potential (harder to trick enemy players, fewer projectile body-blocks).

Phantasm being invulnerable is some I can see being fine, but yet not too strong.But clones? They should never become invulnerable. There needs to be counterplay for Shatters.Clones taking reduced damage from ground-targeted AoEs or traps is something I wouldn't mind though.

@"ASP.8093" said:Here's a weird idea.

A lot of folks argue that the core problem is all your clones and phantasms just get popped instantly in bigger fights with all the AOE and cleave popping off all over. So…

What if you make clones only "real" to the person they're targeted on? Maybe everyone else just sees a barely-visible, non-clickable thing.

There's a couple of challenges there with, like, IH + Split Surge. (And with AOE phantasms if you do a similar thing to Phantasms.) But overall you don't have to change that much to suddenly make a lot of traits more useful for big battles and team fights (clones dying less) at the expense of some 1vX potential (harder to trick enemy players, fewer projectile body-blocks).

this shit right here is pure gold, awesome idea

No it would be bad. Shatters would have to lose their AoE component because you can't have untargetable indestructible NPCs hurt players.

I'm pretty confident that being destructible is a counterplay element to the persistence quality of clones and not their use for shatters.

This can be seen across professions for persistent (or relatively long lasting) AI: turrets, AI thieves, spirits and animal companion, elementals, minions, clones, etc.

One-off AOEs or powerful ranged attacks (shatters) are skill animations that need to be kited, dodged, blocked, blinded, etc. Symbols and Spirit Weapons, Grenade and Mortar Kit and Mines, Cluster Bomb and Choking Gas, Wells, etc.

Shatters are a ranged AOE with a very obvious animation from a distance (clones moving toward the target). Phantasms are not unlike spirit weapons and operate like multi-part skills with elongated cast animations that start with the Mesmer cast and end with the Phantasm cast.

Nowhere else in the game do you see destructible AOE except in the case of Renegade. They appear to be designed on the edge of what is classified as persistent and one-off pulsing AOE.

I think the argument that clones need to be able to be destroyed to counter shatters is thus backward. Clones need to be able to be destroyed to counter their persistence. If clones are to be changed to be invulnerable, then their persistence needs to be removed. For example, only have them generate when a shatter is activated. Tack on being untargetable in this example and they operate only as a shatter delivery mechanism, but would also need a 0.5 sec shatter delay to allow counterplay at melee range (and possibly a damage tweak).

Phantasms are already a non-persistent skill delivery mechanism after their rework.