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Fractal Consumables

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  • I agree that having 50 different cc cons that you can just use one after the other was busted but complete removal seems over the top. I say make all cc cons baseline and give them like 2min CD so each player can use like 1 per encounter.

  • Dear Anet please post a video of a full party of anet employees doing 100cm. I just do not have faith in you to balance when you do not do the content your self.

  • Basically a "Smiters Boon" solution to a non problem and it's a non problem really. It speeds things up and makes encounters easier rather than tedious with possible wipes. What was that video years ago "I swung a sword oh I swung a sword again", that's basically what this "Smiters Boon" nerf does. I'm sure there will be ways around this with new builds and team set ups but it does add even more restrictions. The consumables were for speed runners and casuals that wanted to ensure success by getting as much damage out there as possible with a mechanic that you implemented Anet, it hasn't been a problem for a long time and suddenly you decide "Wait they're doing things fast and effectively, we need to stop this right now!" I don't partake in Fractals, it's not content I particularly enjoy, nor are raids but that doesn't mean that I like it when raiders and people that do fractals are essentially punished for finding effective ways to do them, you "Smiters Boon" the Ash Legion Kits but I agree with that, because it allowed everyone to skip past content. Speeding up content by damaging defiance bars quicker is not skipping content IMO. I really do believe that this was a wrong decision and it will only make casuals more excluded because when there's an adaptation to change, in my experience there are even stricter rules and pressures placed on each class to perform to the standards that others want. That is not fun play, that is not how I want to play and in fact this creates even more elite elitism. Please revert this or at least compensate by taking a look at the bosses in raids/fractals and dungeons and toning them down only slightly. That's all I have to say.

  • I feel that the active fallback attitude on these items was just wrong to be fair. The idea that some groups doing Fractal Challenge Modes had these as requirements going in was... confusing. If players didn't follow Meta Builds so much they would likely be able to execute mechanics with no problems at all (including the Breakbar Mechanic) and still do reasonable amounts of damage but because of this whole "Fast is best" mindset people start to lose track on skills that actually mean something in their class. Let's look at the current "Pug Meta" for example;

    • Renegade (Huge CC)
    • Bannerslave (Huge CC)
    • DPS x2 (Dependant on the class, barely-to-nice amount of CC)
    • Healer (Can bring good CC situationally)

    So why would there EVER be a need for Consumables when this setup is already packing HUGE Crowd Control? I'd say that players affected by this need to learn how to play their classes a lot more efficiently other than relying on an un-intended situation.

    By the way I do not mean this as an attack on any individual but more of an open statement, after all this affects most Challenge Mode groups now but I'm glad Arena Net took this away.

  • Reynarth.4819Reynarth.4819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    It seems I'm in the minority of players who actually like these changes. I can understand the habit and convenient of using CC consumables, but let's be honest, these items made some fractals became definitely too easy, 100 CM and it's rock is the best example.

  • I am totally fine with this but hello the breakbar on 100 fractal is too high at least reduce that because of this changes.

  • SidewayS.3789SidewayS.3789 Member ✭✭✭

    If Anet thinks we will accept newbies in CMs, since they don't even know what CC means, its actually the other way around. Imaging being such a clueless company KEK. Now i want some devs from Anet playing 100CM...Oh wait they still click their skills ...

    🔥 Dûmaat 🔥
    💥 We dreamed up false gods, great demons 💥
    🔥 Fractal God 🔥

  • This change just screws pugs the most and kills composition diversity even more.

    With statics it's not much issue because they can coordinate their skills. From my experience , in pugs, it's mostly impossible.

    It kills party variety because now groups will be looking for classes that can bring a lot of cc without much sacrifice.

    Also it's amazing how ANet designs content that feels like it had consumables in mind and the just removed them without having a second look at the said content. Insanely high break bar on 100CM? A lot of break bars on Artistrav in 99CM ? How about Mama and her minion Knights?

    ANet and TERRIBLE&THOUGHTLESS balance patches. Name more iconic duo.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    for meta party the play pattern is the same: we take one BS. If BS not do cc - block him and kick. Take another BS.
    no toxic and chill.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    for meta party the play pattern is the same: we take one BS. If BS not do cc - block him and kick. Take another BS.
    no toxic and chill.

    Sadly the bs dont have enough cc to do all 100cm alone

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I only worried for gold , that I spend for consumables on few stack each on each fractal ready character

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Sadly the bs dont have enough cc to do all 100cm alone

    in normal healthy community no one care about this. Yesterday after patch I sow that some can. So if someone not - it is not party problem.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @DanielKingston.3947 said:
    I feel that the active fallback attitude on these items was just wrong to be fair. The idea that some groups doing Fractal Challenge Modes had these as requirements going in was... confusing. If players didn't follow Meta Builds so much they would likely be able to execute mechanics with no problems at all (including the Breakbar Mechanic) and still do reasonable amounts of damage but because of this whole "Fast is best" mindset people start to lose track on skills that actually mean something in their class. Let's look at the current "Pug Meta" for example;

    • Renegade (Huge CC)
    • Bannerslave (Huge CC)
    • DPS x2 (Dependant on the class, barely-to-nice amount of CC)
    • Healer (Can bring good CC situationally)

    So why would there EVER be a need for Consumables when this setup is already packing HUGE Crowd Control? I'd say that players affected by this need to learn how to play their classes a lot more efficiently other than relying on an un-intended situation.

    By the way I do not mean this as an attack on any individual but more of an open statement, after all this affects most Challenge Mode groups now but I'm glad Arena Net took this away.

    In this case (CM100) it's not about doing it faster, it is about doing it. If you don't have enough cc for the last sorrows phase (each one = 1500 breakbar), you just wipe. Before the patch, we could carry it with cc cons in pug groups, as a lot of players don't seem to know what cc is (especially dps ones).

    So yes if player would learn to use cc, it would not be a real issue, but i don't think it will happens with most pugs.

    Not to mention that in that phase there's a lot of healing pressure, so if I cc as hb inevitably one or more party members are going to down, then the snowball effect begins.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • I like this change, even though they missed a few, because theres this aspect of build craft and comp building that's just not relevant because why would I ever swap in a cc skill when I can just us a plank.

    Having a lot of cc was just not a strength on a build worth considering cause cc consumables.

  • first they came for the kp, then they came for the cc... it gets more toxic each time. really anet devs, do u even play the game urself? liek serusly?

  • I think people can be too lazy (yes of course it's a problem) but what a bigger problem is, people who point it out can be quite toxic about it and the more we deny this the more it stays the same. In any case, mentioning someones ability to CC whether it's bad or good encourages better team-work but nowadays it's all about efficiency regardless of 100CM or not it's always been about efficiency. 100CM IS DOABLE with no Consumables. Is 100CM doable with the current Meta Setups? Maybe not. That's down to us, the players who come together to do it, to figure out our builds to ensure it gets done practically instead of figuring out how to zoom through.

    People have already been saying it's the "easiest" Challenge Mode, I doubt that this was Arena Nets intention because it's meant to feel like a Challenge Mode so therefore it's going to have challenges where the players have to overcome, I'm actually looking forward to trying out 100CM with no cons and look forward to seeing others do the same because it IS doable.

  • @SidewayS.3789 said:
    If Anet thinks we will accept newbies in CMs, since they don't even know what CC means, its actually the other way around. Imaging being such a clueless company KEK. Now i want some devs from Anet playing 100CM...Oh wait they still click their skills ...

    If a player doesn't know how to Crowd Control in 100CM or even in any Tier 4 Fractal, that player just needs a little heads up - not to be shut out because certain players believe it to be a be-all-end-all requirement. It doesn't take much to ensure everybody knows about CC before heading in.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nish.5980 said:
    first they came for the kp, then they came for the cc... it gets more toxic each time. really anet devs, do u even play the game urself? liek serusly?

    kp still exist. If someone change it - not problem for cm players. It only additional filter don't take in pt someone who have less vision if cms.
    cc - only one more action only for CCS(mace war). You need puch him more and kick slackers. So game is ok.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • yes let the toxicity flow through you....

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nish.5980 said:
    yes let the toxicity flow through you....

    we can easy prevent toxicity, use block before kick

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Removing cc cons is more punitive for newbies and low experienced parties than experienced ones. Experienced parties use their cc skills and don't need cons. CC cons where usefull to carry ppl or solo/duo things. So Anet just punish the ppl who already struggle... As usual when they want to prevent "toxicity".

    Just rollback the change pls Anet. Don't persist being dumb like every other time.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nairolf.7024 said:
    Removing cc cons is more punitive for newbies and low experienced parties than experienced ones. Experienced parties use their cc skills and don't need cons. CC cons where usefull to carry ppl or solo/duo things. So Anet just punish the ppl who already struggle... As usual when they want to prevent "toxicity".

    Just rollback the change pls Anet. Don't persist being dumb like every other time.

    Yes this change hurts newer players when they get up to CM but the newbies aren't bring rocks and planks in t1-t4. It would only be required later when they pass all the tests and get allowed into the high tier groups then they would be told hey you can't join unless you bring these rocks.
    It ain't hurting newbies and I doubt any of you CM players gaf about how this may hurt newbies in the future. You rock hoppas just want it reverted to easy mode but the fake concern is cute

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Nairolf.7024Nairolf.7024 Member ✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Yes this change hurts newer players when they get up to CM but the newbies aren't bring rocks and planks in t1-t4. It would only be required later when they pass all the tests and get allowed into the high tier groups then they would be told hey you can't join unless you bring these rocks.
    It ain't hurting newbies and I doubt any of you CM players gaf about how this may hurt newbies in the future. You rock hoppas just want it reverted to easy mode but the fake concern is cute

    It's not a fake concern : I like to solo dungeons and cc cons where usefull for that. I like to help new players in lower fractals tier and cc cons where usefull there too.

    If it's OP then just balance it. Don't remove things nor make them useless...

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nairolf.7024 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Yes this change hurts newer players when they get up to CM but the newbies aren't bring rocks and planks in t1-t4. It would only be required later when they pass all the tests and get allowed into the high tier groups then they would be told hey you can't join unless you bring these rocks.
    It ain't hurting newbies and I doubt any of you CM players gaf about how this may hurt newbies in the future. You rock hoppas just want it reverted to easy mode but the fake concern is cute

    It's not a fake concern : I like to solo dungeons and cc cons where usefull for that. I like to help new players in lower fractals tier and cc cons where usefull there too.

    If it's OP then just balance it. Don't remove things nor make them useless...

    Ok maybe your concern was real but this was like the 5th but but new players will suffer. Maybe you while helping lower tiers bring these cons to help you help them but I doubt there's teams of pugs in lower levels throwing rocks. It affects the cm runners the most because it was easier with cons but they will adjust and new players w/o these cons will learn by progression and might get to a point when they hit 98 and just can't get over the hump to cms and won't have the but hey you can all buy 50 rocks to get over the hump which was really dumb anyway. Not all content is meant for everyone. They just closed a loophole that allowed some to do content higher then their skill and rightly so

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Nairolf.7024 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Yes this change hurts newer players when they get up to CM but the newbies aren't bring rocks and planks in t1-t4. It would only be required later when they pass all the tests and get allowed into the high tier groups then they would be told hey you can't join unless you bring these rocks.
    It ain't hurting newbies and I doubt any of you CM players gaf about how this may hurt newbies in the future. You rock hoppas just want it reverted to easy mode but the fake concern is cute

    It's not a fake concern : I like to solo dungeons and cc cons where usefull for that. I like to help new players in lower fractals tier and cc cons where usefull there too.

    If it's OP then just balance it. Don't remove things nor make them useless...

    Ok maybe your concern was real but this was like the 5th but but new players will suffer. Maybe you while helping lower tiers bring these cons to help you help them but I doubt there's teams of pugs in lower levels throwing rocks. It affects the cm runners the most because it was easier with cons but they will adjust and new players w/o these cons will learn by progression and might get to a point when they hit 98 and just can't get over the hump to cms and won't have the but hey you can all buy 50 rocks to get over the hump which was really dumb anyway. Not all content is meant for everyone. They just closed a loophole that allowed some to do content higher then their skill and rightly so

    Theoretically I agree that people should just have to learn how to CC, and I also personally think consumables were a hassle to use in most scanarios.
    That said, one thing to keep in mind is that maybe about <0.5% of the whole playerbase is skilled enough to clear this content, and even many of those have been carried by others with consumables and such.

    Out of (last I checked) 6000 people with DwD, how many are left being able to clear the content well without consumables? 1000-3000 players in the whole game across all regions who didn't just buy it or got carried by other's partially with consumables?
    Good luck pugging that. This content just got a whole lot less accessible.

    Considering all my guilds, communities and statics quit as well, changes like this especially makes me not want to come back to the content myself, especially since it likely means having to be a kitten and repeatedly kick people who can't CC over and over in a grueling and fairly toxic process until finding some of the very few people who can clear the content well (or giving up in frustration), rather than just being able to bite the bullet and whipping out some consumables to carry and being able to move on.

    If you think (new and carried old) players will suddenly just learn how to do it and improve because they have to, rather than just butting their heads against a wall and wipe and give up, then you have a very different experience with pugging and trying to coach new players than I do.

    The amount of actual high end players who take pleasure in actually learning, adjusting and improving and can crush this content fairly easily like us is a lot smaller than you may think, which isn't surprising considering how little content catering to those players to attract or keep them around we had over the years.

    For people who still have their statics around, yea sure, who cares (on a personal level). But in terms of actually pugging and life of the content as a whole, these recent changes have been a pretty big oof.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Jilora.9524
    I understand what you're saying but not everyone can or wants to spend hours in a Fract/Dungeon/Raid playing the way that you yourself prefer to play. True not all content is made for everyone but this latest move reduces the amount of people willing to do the content and players put off by even more stricter requirements for group play. With that reduction it makes it even harder to find groups. Sure you can go down the Guild route and that's fine but this is just extra layers of effort that put people off. Sure you could say people are lazy and people are, people also get frustrated easily and with the requirements to use CC skills that frustration level will have been turned up by 100%. Meaning more toxicity placed on the less experienced players and reduction in successful runs that leads to players leaving and the content not being played. This alienates a large portion of the playerbase, that tends to happen when you remove options, and CC cons were an option. You didn't have to use them if your style and choice of gameplay was to not run them. The option and freedom of choice and freedom to play has now been reduced to cater to your style of play and as I said your style is not everyone else's style of gameplay. I'm not attacking you at all I'm just saying that you still have your freedom to not use CC cons and play the way you want. Everyone else that would use them and those that thought about starting Fractals/Raids/Dungeons will find it even harder than it already was to join in that content and sadly this just leads to as I said content not being played.

    I said in another post I don't even do Fractals/Raids/Dungeons so this doesn't affect me but it's still sad to see freedom of choice and freedom of gameplay style just reduced with kneejerk ill thought out nerfs like this. It is "Smiters Boon" solution to a non problem. In fact it's just created a bunch of problems because we all know how players are and the majority of players want things done fast and efficiently with lower failure risk. Remove all that and you get dead content sadly and we've seen it before.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Nairolf.7024 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Yes this change hurts newer players when they get up to CM but the newbies aren't bring rocks and planks in t1-t4. It would only be required later when they pass all the tests and get allowed into the high tier groups then they would be told hey you can't join unless you bring these rocks.
    It ain't hurting newbies and I doubt any of you CM players gaf about how this may hurt newbies in the future. You rock hoppas just want it reverted to easy mode but the fake concern is cute

    It's not a fake concern : I like to solo dungeons and cc cons where usefull for that. I like to help new players in lower fractals tier and cc cons where usefull there too.

    If it's OP then just balance it. Don't remove things nor make them useless...

    Ok maybe your concern was real but this was like the 5th but but new players will suffer. Maybe you while helping lower tiers bring these cons to help you help them but I doubt there's teams of pugs in lower levels throwing rocks. It affects the cm runners the most because it was easier with cons but they will adjust and new players w/o these cons will learn by progression and might get to a point when they hit 98 and just can't get over the hump to cms and won't have the but hey you can all buy 50 rocks to get over the hump which was really dumb anyway. Not all content is meant for everyone. They just closed a loophole that allowed some to do content higher then their skill and rightly so

    Theoretically I agree that people should just have to learn how to CC, and I also personally think consumables were a hassle to use in most scanarios.
    That said, one thing to keep in mind is that maybe about <0.5% of the whole playerbase is skilled enough to clear this content, and even many of those have been carried by others with consumables and such.

    Out of (last I checked) 6000 people with DwD, how many are left being able to clear the content well without consumables? 1000-3000 players in the whole game across all regions who didn't just buy it or got carried by other's partially with consumables?
    Good luck pugging that. This content just got a whole lot less accessible.

    Considering all my guilds, communities and statics quit as well, changes like this especially makes me not want to come back to the content myself, especially since it likely means having to be a kitten and repeatedly kick people who can't CC over and over in a grueling and fairly toxic process until finding some of the very few people who can clear the content well (or giving up in frustration), rather than just being able to bite the bullet and whipping out some consumables to carry and being able to move on.

    If you think (new and carried old) players will suddenly just learn how to do it and improve because they have to, rather than just butting their heads against a wall and wipe and give up, then you have a very different experience with pugging and trying to coach new players than I do.

    The amount of actual high end players who take pleasure in actually learning, adjusting and improving and can crush this content fairly easily like us is a lot smaller than you may think, which isn't surprising considering how little content catering to those players to attract or keep them around we had over the years.

    For people who still have their statics around, yea sure, who cares (on a personal level). But in terms of actually pugging and life of the content as a whole, these recent changes have been a pretty big oof.

    Yeah but should we really be able to easily pugs cms. I mean ya you need huge improvement from t2-t3 t3-t4 and them cms. Go run t2 or 3 with pugs trying for the fractal weekly and you see just how bad the population is. Now you can easily get carried thru t3 but once t4 hits then cms you basically can't play lol ima play any class for fun which you can thru those tiers you almost have to start swapping to the 4 or 5 carry type classes. So, new players will have to find decent players and start forming statics just like most of you have done. It's just the talent pool to chose from is lower. I like to play what I like not conform and many players are the same way but in order to go to cms you need t adjust improve join a guild maybe or start a static now which I see no issue in doing. Some players joining pugs throwing rocks to beat content again allowed players to not learn and get carried by consumables or consumable and better players. It thins the herd an already thin herd. Adjust or skip harder content. At least now theres no extra cheese involved.
    Next move to further separate skill level is anet will block mechanic skips so even if you 100-20 on the 1st mechanic it resets to 75 and you must do each mechanic not bypass stacking 7 sb or power chronos etc. That's raids tho.

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Zaxares.5419Zaxares.5419 Member ✭✭✭

    This is an example of treating the symptom of a problem, but not the cause. As Infusion's excellent post on the previous page shows:

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    Any "normal" Champion or Legendary fractal boss = 600 defiance bar
    Bloomhunger (a normal boss) = 1000 defiance bar
    Assault Knights = 800 defiance bar
    Ensolyss & Siax = 2000 defiance bar
    Skorvald the Shattered = 2200 defiance bar
    Artsariiv = 2100 defiance bar
    Arkk = 1800 defiance bar
    Ai, Keeper of the Peak = 3200 defiance bar
    Sorrow = 1500 defiance bar with 10s window (near double the Assault Knights')

    Compare this to say a raid boss designed for 10 people which is 2000 defiance for Vale Guardian / Matthias / Xera and 4000-4500 for the likes of Slothasor, Samarog and Gorseval...

    The reason why players were resorting to these consumables is because some of the breakbars on these bosses are bafflingly high. As a BS, it's disheartening when you unload Headbutt, Wild Blow, and all 3 of your CC's from a Mace/Mace set and it's only HALF of the boss's breakbar. We shouldn't have a situation where if you sacrifice your offhand set and half your utilities you're still unable to break a bar. (Not to mention that Rev's Staff 5 does nearly as much CC damage with just one skill. :P) If ANet doesn't want players just keeping a boss constantly stunned and Exposed through CC damage (even though I personally think that's fine. Reward your players for bringing CC!!!), then do what you did with Ai and just have the boss have an unbreakable bar outside of certain phases where you're supposed to break and unload bursts. It doesn't make sense to solve a problem by getting into an arms race that doesn't address the fundamental problem in the first place.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Nairolf.7024 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Yes this change hurts newer players when they get up to CM but the newbies aren't bring rocks and planks in t1-t4. It would only be required later when they pass all the tests and get allowed into the high tier groups then they would be told hey you can't join unless you bring these rocks.
    It ain't hurting newbies and I doubt any of you CM players gaf about how this may hurt newbies in the future. You rock hoppas just want it reverted to easy mode but the fake concern is cute

    It's not a fake concern : I like to solo dungeons and cc cons where usefull for that. I like to help new players in lower fractals tier and cc cons where usefull there too.

    If it's OP then just balance it. Don't remove things nor make them useless...

    Ok maybe your concern was real but this was like the 5th but but new players will suffer. Maybe you while helping lower tiers bring these cons to help you help them but I doubt there's teams of pugs in lower levels throwing rocks. It affects the cm runners the most because it was easier with cons but they will adjust and new players w/o these cons will learn by progression and might get to a point when they hit 98 and just can't get over the hump to cms and won't have the but hey you can all buy 50 rocks to get over the hump which was really dumb anyway. Not all content is meant for everyone. They just closed a loophole that allowed some to do content higher then their skill and rightly so

    Theoretically I agree that people should just have to learn how to CC, and I also personally think consumables were a hassle to use in most scanarios.
    That said, one thing to keep in mind is that maybe about <0.5% of the whole playerbase is skilled enough to clear this content, and even many of those have been carried by others with consumables and such.

    Out of (last I checked) 6000 people with DwD, how many are left being able to clear the content well without consumables? 1000-3000 players in the whole game across all regions who didn't just buy it or got carried by other's partially with consumables?
    Good luck pugging that. This content just got a whole lot less accessible.

    Considering all my guilds, communities and statics quit as well, changes like this especially makes me not want to come back to the content myself, especially since it likely means having to be a kitten and repeatedly kick people who can't CC over and over in a grueling and fairly toxic process until finding some of the very few people who can clear the content well (or giving up in frustration), rather than just being able to bite the bullet and whipping out some consumables to carry and being able to move on.

    If you think (new and carried old) players will suddenly just learn how to do it and improve because they have to, rather than just butting their heads against a wall and wipe and give up, then you have a very different experience with pugging and trying to coach new players than I do.

    The amount of actual high end players who take pleasure in actually learning, adjusting and improving and can crush this content fairly easily like us is a lot smaller than you may think, which isn't surprising considering how little content catering to those players to attract or keep them around we had over the years.

    For people who still have their statics around, yea sure, who cares (on a personal level). But in terms of actually pugging and life of the content as a whole, these recent changes have been a pretty big oof.

    Yeah but should we really be able to easily pugs cms. I mean ya you need huge improvement from t2-t3 t3-t4 and them cms. Go run t2 or 3 with pugs trying for the fractal weekly and you see just how bad the population is. Now you can easily get carried thru t3 but once t4 hits then cms you basically can't play lol ima play any class for fun which you can thru those tiers you almost have to start swapping to the 4 or 5 carry type classes. So, new players will have to find decent players and start forming statics just like most of you have done. It's just the talent pool to chose from is lower. I like to play what I like not conform and many players are the same way but in order to go to cms you need t adjust improve join a guild maybe or start a static now which I see no issue in doing. Some players joining pugs throwing rocks to beat content again allowed players to not learn and get carried by consumables or consumable and better players. It thins the herd an already thin herd. Adjust or skip harder content. At least now theres no extra cheese involved.
    Next move to further separate skill level is anet will block mechanic skips so even if you 100-20 on the 1st mechanic it resets to 75 and you must do each mechanic not bypass stacking 7 sb or power chronos etc. That's raids tho.

    Considering we are speaking about less than 0.5% of the playerbase (depending on how many people are not on efficiency likely much lower) being able to clear the content, I don't know if saying people can easily PuG CM's is applicable, even with things like CC consumables.
    And while I absolutely recommend statics and communities, especially to newer players trying to learn, I don't think making LFG just pretty much useless and unviable to form groups with that can clear the content is a good idea. LFG, at least imo, shouldn't just be an advertising platform for sellers - but be a viable way to form groups regardless of skill level, with a proper way for each player to filter according to their own.
    You are saying that "the talent pool to choose from just is lower" very flippantly, when it's already been critically low for years now and needed to go in the opposite direction, especially after literally years of no new content.

    Imo what Fractals needed is a proper official KP system, like progressing Title achievements, giving out new Titles at something like 1-5-10-20 clears for people to matchmake with.
    Things like the consumable "unintended clunky gameplay" could have much better been solved by making them a Novelty which players can slot in and use via hotkey without having to have the inventory open, etc.

    There were so many options though to make this content more accessible, which was the goal with these changes and which the content desperately needs if it should warrant further development due to having a healthy population, without taking away all the fun intricacies that made Fractals unique and fun, and actually helped people to matchmake more accurately to avoid toxicity due to different players with different skill levels and expectations clashing.

    Yet Anet instead is both dumbing the game down, making it less interesting for Veterans, continually taking away from the high end experience, while at the same time making the content far less accessible and more toxic for new and less proficient players.

    That's just a bad move on all fronts, and the only ones celebrating or crying for those changes in the first place are those who have no idea about the community of that content and the content itself, which unfortunately somehow seems to include the devs.

    Fractals where fun and unique because of all the cheese you could do in that content, it rewards player creativity, dedication, knowledge as well as proficiency and gives them agency.
    Stripping all that away for a bland clinical experience that only 0.1% of the player base can do is helping no one, and I say that even as someone who is in that 0.1%.

    It always goes: Anet introduces a problem -> players find an imperfect solution to the problem -> Anet takes away the solution because it's not perfect/is unintended -> players are stuck with the problem -> Anet never goes back to actually address the problem and players grow frustrated/leave due to not having access to any solutions anymore, no matter how good or bad.

    That's just not sustainable, as the numbers show.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • SidewayS.3789SidewayS.3789 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Nairolf.7024 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Yes this change hurts newer players when they get up to CM but the newbies aren't bring rocks and planks in t1-t4. It would only be required later when they pass all the tests and get allowed into the high tier groups then they would be told hey you can't join unless you bring these rocks.
    It ain't hurting newbies and I doubt any of you CM players gaf about how this may hurt newbies in the future. You rock hoppas just want it reverted to easy mode but the fake concern is cute

    It's not a fake concern : I like to solo dungeons and cc cons where usefull for that. I like to help new players in lower fractals tier and cc cons where usefull there too.

    If it's OP then just balance it. Don't remove things nor make them useless...

    Ok maybe your concern was real but this was like the 5th but but new players will suffer. Maybe you while helping lower tiers bring these cons to help you help them but I doubt there's teams of pugs in lower levels throwing rocks. It affects the cm runners the most because it was easier with cons but they will adjust and new players w/o these cons will learn by progression and might get to a point when they hit 98 and just can't get over the hump to cms and won't have the but hey you can all buy 50 rocks to get over the hump which was really dumb anyway. Not all content is meant for everyone. They just closed a loophole that allowed some to do content higher then their skill and rightly so

    Theoretically I agree that people should just have to learn how to CC, and I also personally think consumables were a hassle to use in most scanarios.
    That said, one thing to keep in mind is that maybe about <0.5% of the whole playerbase is skilled enough to clear this content, and even many of those have been carried by others with consumables and such.

    Out of (last I checked) 6000 people with DwD, how many are left being able to clear the content well without consumables? 1000-3000 players in the whole game across all regions who didn't just buy it or got carried by other's partially with consumables?
    Good luck pugging that. This content just got a whole lot less accessible.

    Considering all my guilds, communities and statics quit as well, changes like this especially makes me not want to come back to the content myself, especially since it likely means having to be a kitten and repeatedly kick people who can't CC over and over in a grueling and fairly toxic process until finding some of the very few people who can clear the content well (or giving up in frustration), rather than just being able to bite the bullet and whipping out some consumables to carry and being able to move on.

    If you think (new and carried old) players will suddenly just learn how to do it and improve because they have to, rather than just butting their heads against a wall and wipe and give up, then you have a very different experience with pugging and trying to coach new players than I do.

    The amount of actual high end players who take pleasure in actually learning, adjusting and improving and can crush this content fairly easily like us is a lot smaller than you may think, which isn't surprising considering how little content catering to those players to attract or keep them around we had over the years.

    For people who still have their statics around, yea sure, who cares (on a personal level). But in terms of actually pugging and life of the content as a whole, these recent changes have been a pretty big oof.

    Yeah but should we really be able to easily pugs cms. I mean ya you need huge improvement from t2-t3 t3-t4 and them cms. Go run t2 or 3 with pugs trying for the fractal weekly and you see just how bad the population is. Now you can easily get carried thru t3 but once t4 hits then cms you basically can't play lol ima play any class for fun which you can thru those tiers you almost have to start swapping to the 4 or 5 carry type classes. So, new players will have to find decent players and start forming statics just like most of you have done. It's just the talent pool to chose from is lower. I like to play what I like not conform and many players are the same way but in order to go to cms you need t adjust improve join a guild maybe or start a static now which I see no issue in doing. Some players joining pugs throwing rocks to beat content again allowed players to not learn and get carried by consumables or consumable and better players. It thins the herd an already thin herd. Adjust or skip harder content. At least now theres no extra cheese involved.
    Next move to further separate skill level is anet will block mechanic skips so even if you 100-20 on the 1st mechanic it resets to 75 and you must do each mechanic not bypass stacking 7 sb or power chronos etc. That's raids tho.

    Considering we are speaking about less than 0.5% of the playerbase (depending on how many people are not on efficiency likely much lower) being able to clear the content, I don't know if saying people can easily PuG CM's is applicable, even with things like CC consumables.
    And while I absolutely recommend statics and communities, especially to newer players trying to learn, I don't think making LFG just pretty much useless and unviable to form groups with that can clear the content is a good idea. LFG, at least imo, shouldn't just be an advertising platform for sellers - but be a viable way to form groups regardless of skill level, with a proper way for each player to filter according to their own.
    You are saying that "the talent pool to choose from just is lower" very flippantly, when it's already been critically low for years now and needed to go in the opposite direction, especially after literally years of no new content.

    Imo what Fractals needed is a proper official KP system, like progressing Title achievements, giving out new Titles at something like 1-5-10-20 clears for people to matchmake with.
    Things like the consumable "unintended clunky gameplay" could have much better been solved by making them a Novelty which players can slot in and use via hotkey without having to have the inventory open, etc.

    There were so many options though to make this content more accessible, which was the goal with these changes and which the content desperately needs if it should warrant further development due to having a healthy population, without taking away all the fun intricacies that made Fractals unique and fun, and actually helped people to matchmake more accurately to avoid toxicity due to different players with different skill levels and expectations clashing.

    Yet Anet instead is both dumbing the game down, making it less interesting for Veterans, continually taking away from the high end experience, while at the same time making the content far less accessible and more toxic for new and less proficient players.

    That's just a bad move on all fronts, and the only ones celebrating or crying for those changes in the first place are those who have no idea about the community of that content and the content itself, which unfortunately somehow seems to include the devs.

    Fractals where fun and unique because of all the cheese you could do in that content, it rewards player creativity, dedication, knowledge as well as proficiency and gives them agency.
    Stripping all that away for a bland clinical experience that only 0.1% of the player base can do is helping no one, and I say that even as someone who is in that 0.1%.

    It always goes: Anet introduces a problem -> players find an imperfect solution to the problem -> Anet takes away the solution because it's not perfect/is unintended -> players are stuck with the problem -> Anet never goes back to actually address the problem and players grow frustrated/leave due to not having access to any solutions anymore, no matter how good or bad.

    That's just not sustainable, as the numbers show.

    This happens when you are not playing your game (as devs). It's the main problem from the start, like hello? If you don't even know your own game, how the hell can some dev can do some changes (good ones in their eyes) when they have no idea how this content works,to begin with. And this is not the first time when they are doing this,BUT a lot of vets out there are starting to say "enough its enough". I have been into many fractals guilds,and they all died. I mean if Anet wants fractals to be always with a foot in the grave, so be yet, but i am tired of this BS, and it's not only about consumables, but every decisions they made regarding the fractals.

    🔥 Dûmaat 🔥
    💥 We dreamed up false gods, great demons 💥
    🔥 Fractal God 🔥

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The talent pool thing was more since more high end cm players have already gilded or formed a static the newer players pool of good players is much lower. That is the thing tho. Fractal CM and things like raids are for a small portion of the player base. The diff with fractals is the tiers of difficulty. I bet a ton more players do fractals then raid because of this. Now of course the end game fractals base is really small much smaller then raids I bet because it at times is just as hard or harder but there are no CM training runs or guilds out there(that I kno of) to train. It's just the cm runners who want to find other cm runners and try there best to block anyone newer from getting into the content. In fact go above and beyond to block and out anyone desperate enough to try and sneak in because there are no ways to crack this content unlike raids where you can join training runs etc so you get the toxic fakers just looking for carry
    And if it's only .5 percent of the player base then this change doesn't affect many players at all except those who got clears but can't anymore because consumables are gone. And if you can't clear content w/o consumables then you shouldn't be doing that content anyway let alone locking others out

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    The talent pool thing was more since more high end cm players have already gilded or formed a static the newer players pool of good players is much lower. That is the thing tho. Fractal CM and things like raids are for a small portion of the player base. The diff with fractals is the tiers of difficulty. I bet a ton more players do fractals then raid because of this. Now of course the end game fractals base is really small much smaller then raids I bet because it at times is just as hard or harder but there are no CM training runs or guilds out there(that I kno of) to train. It's just the cm runners who want to find other cm runners and try there best to block anyone newer from getting into the content. In fact go above and beyond to block and out anyone desperate enough to try and sneak in because there are no ways to crack this content unlike raids where you can join training runs etc so you get the toxic fakers just looking for carry

    I really fundamentally disagree with that notion that established CM runners at large are actively and maliciously try to prevent other's from getting into the content. That's nonsense.
    They are just wanting to have fun themselves, which means playing with likeminded and skilled players, since after doing this very limited set of same content over and over and over again for years, doing it efficiently and smooth really is the only thing that makes it still fun.

    Pretty much no one wants to wipe and struggle for hours in content they have literally played 300+ times and know blind by muscle memory, to absolutely no fault of their own with no way to compensate or carry. Especially not daily.
    That is very, very far from malicious intend and active gatekeeping.

    Making ones own LFG with a requirement doesn't harm anyone else, nor block them from making their own without that requirement.
    If people not fulfilling those requirements refuse to make their own groups and just want to piggyback on other's, that's entirely on them.
    Blaming other's for making their own groups catering to their own interest and playstyle which they can't join, rather than just making their own, is imo incredibly entitled.

    And sure, if you are an unproficient player trying to get in it looks rude when a group you are trying to join doesn't accept you, and you might think that you can carry your weight and that it's unfair. But just consider that this very same group you are trying to join already heard that 80+ times, and the vast majority of those times went absolutely horrible when they gave the person a shot, ruining their day and wasting their time, again and again.
    Can anyone really blame them for just wanting to have a good time? Even more so now without things like consumables to carry for weaker players, and no KP to gauge rough experience levels, it's just a really bad deal to pug.

    But to attribute malicious intend to that or to blame hardcore vets for that situation is imo really misguided and not helping anyone. Nor is driving those players out of the game going to make the content more populated or accessible for anyone.
    It's just going to leave it dead.

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    And if it's only .5 percent of the player base then this change doesn't affect many players at all except those who got clears but can't anymore because consumables are gone. And if you can't clear content w/o consumables then you shouldn't be doing that content anyway let alone locking others out

    I mean, sure, you can just say that, but why? Why make the change in the first place then if it has such little effect (and the one it does have is mostly negative to the population)? Who is actually helped with that and what is the goal with that design decision?
    "If you can't clear CM's without consumables, GTFO" doesn't seem like the inclusive welcoming effect Anet was going for, no?

    Making the content harder, less flexible/interactive and interesting and increasing toxicity in that environment just, to me, doesn't seem what they were going for.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • memausz.7264memausz.7264 Member ✭✭✭

    Lol I'm still going to use Balls of Gunk.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    The talent pool thing was more since more high end cm players have already gilded or formed a static the newer players pool of good players is much lower. That is the thing tho. Fractal CM and things like raids are for a small portion of the player base. The diff with fractals is the tiers of difficulty. I bet a ton more players do fractals then raid because of this. Now of course the end game fractals base is really small much smaller then raids I bet because it at times is just as hard or harder but there are no CM training runs or guilds out there(that I kno of) to train. It's just the cm runners who want to find other cm runners and try there best to block anyone newer from getting into the content. In fact go above and beyond to block and out anyone desperate enough to try and sneak in because there are no ways to crack this content unlike raids where you can join training runs etc so you get the toxic fakers just looking for carry

    I really fundamentally disagree with that notion that established CM runners at large are actively and maliciously try to prevent other's from getting into the content. That's nonsense.
    They are just wanting to have fun themselves, which means playing with likeminded and skilled players, since after doing this very limited set of same content over and over and over again for years, doing it efficiently and smooth really is the only thing that makes it still fun.

    Pretty much no one wants to wipe and struggle for hours in content they have literally played 300+ times and know blind by muscle memory, to absolutely no fault of their own with no way to compensate or carry. Especially not daily.
    That is very, very far from malicious intend and active gatekeeping.

    Making ones own LFG with a requirement doesn't harm anyone else, nor block them from making their own without that requirement.
    If people not fulfilling those requirements refuse to make their own groups and just want to piggyback on other's, that's entirely on them.
    Blaming other's for making their own groups catering to their own interest and playstyle which they can't join, rather than just making their own, is imo incredibly entitled.

    And sure, if you are an unproficient player trying to get in it looks rude when a group you are trying to join doesn't accept you, and you might think that you can carry your weight and that it's unfair. But just consider that this very same group you are trying to join already heard that 80+ times, and the vast majority of those times went absolutely horrible when they gave the person a shot, ruining their day and wasting their time, again and again.
    Can anyone really blame them for just wanting to have a good time? Even more so now without things like consumables to carry for weaker players, and no KP to gauge rough experience levels, it's just a really bad deal to pug.

    But to attribute malicious intend to that or to blame hardcore vets for that situation is imo really misguided and not helping anyone. Nor is driving those players out of the game going to make the content more populated or accessible for anyone.
    It's just going to leave it dead.

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    And if it's only .5 percent of the player base then this change doesn't affect many players at all except those who got clears but can't anymore because consumables are gone. And if you can't clear content w/o consumables then you shouldn't be doing that content anyway let alone locking others out

    I mean, sure, you can just say that, but why? Why make the change in the first place then if it has such little effect (and the one it does have is mostly negative to the population)? Who is actually helped with that and what is the goal with that design decision?
    "If you can't clear CM's without consumables, GTFO" doesn't seem like the inclusive welcoming effect Anet was going for, no?

    Making the content harder, less flexible/interactive and interesting and increasing toxicity in that environment just, to me, doesn't seem what they were going for.

    Ya well explain the hoops in lfg. 250 kp kp.me dwd title ping consumables etc etc. Too any one not in that click it sure seems spiteful and impossible to crack. Yeah I get no one wants to wipe for 3 hours. I get you want to beat the content but it went from beating the content to speed run the content and we can't wipe a few times. It's not going to go from 45m to 3h bringing 1 dude outta 5 who needs to learn and increasing the pool of players by teaching that guy. I'm not saying you can't put what you want in lfg but it's far from wanting a good time nowadays. I'm not blaming anyone who makes those reqs but the only threads now are look this guy had the audacity to try and lie and was toxic in my group with these reqs. I didn't even say malicious but its omg you only beat that content 8 times instead of 50 gtfo type thing you read right on these forums. Or the other guy who wouldn't even answer if the guy was underperforming only and confronted or was causing wipes.
    The change isn't a little effect obviously. It affects a small amount of a small amount of players. The I can no longer beat this content because they took away my cheese in this case my rocks and planks.
    Yeah your day was wasted 80 times giving a player a shot. These guys you let try 80 times cost you 3 hours and you didn't beat 1 fractal. Or is it you found out in 5 minutes he was not good enough and kicked him and had to get another. Can't see that as my day ruined unless you get multiple bads at once.

    Edited. I do take offense to you saying entitled. At no point do I say or would I join something I don't meet the reqs for. A simple exp only would be enough it I wasn't exp. I join something I read the lfg. If it's all strikes I don't join and do 3 and leave. If it's dalies I join for all dalies etc and will only join anything that I match the reqs for and anyone who does join things they aren't qualified for are an issue and feel free to weed anyone out thru lfg reqs but the victims thing omg this unqualified guy tried to sneak in anet revert all changes because he wasted 10 m of my life is over reaction

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    Removal of cc consumables will limit the diversity of builds and classes too. Apart from that it will put more pressure on renegades. In my experience cc consumables were more important for carrying bad groups and speedclears, but in normal groups they won't seem a big loss in my opinion. I am honestly unsure about this change, if it makes the new players to learn the importance of cc it is a good change, but I highly doubt it. Some more toxicity will be created in low kp range I guess, because the CC won't be as carriable as before. In the end it was a questionable change tbh.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ah, fixing things that don't need to be fixed.

  • People claiming that they were carrying new players with consumable CC but LFG full of CMs were demanding consumable CC made it look like they actually wanted to be carried. Just saying.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Ya well explain the hoops in lfg. 250 kp kp.me dwd title ping consumables etc etc. Too any one not in that click it sure seems spiteful and impossible to crack.

    Okay, here is the thing that I never got about that complaint/argument about requirements and how they lock people out of the content and that nobody who makes it ever attempts to explain:
    How does anyone making a group on LFG asking for 250KP, DwD, Title, Consumables etc. affect you or anyone else negatively in any capacity?
    What is at all the issue with that existing? How does it prevent anyone from just joining another group not asking for those things, or should no such group exist, making an own group/LFG not asking for those things?

    And that's where the entitlement accusation comes from. Why does some vocal subset of this community just expect, or rather straight up demand, that other's make LFG's catering to them for them, when everybody has the power to just write their own LFG?
    It's not like any of us who do have KP, titles, consumables etc. just had them fall from the sky. We all started out as beginners.
    It's just some of us posted training LFG's, asked around in guilds, friend lists etc. until we had a group together and tackled and learned the content and earned those things, to then be able to ask for them in others who did as well to then clear the content together in a way that is satisfying to us with like minded players - and others just sit in LFG, watch the postings that aren't fit for them, and then go and cry to the devs that they are locked out of the content by evil elitists who don't want to play with them rather than putting in the work themselves, just expecting a carry.

    How is that not pure entitlement? Why does it matter what other's demand in their LFG? And how does what they demand for their own groups in any way impact the ability of others to make their own groups according to their level of experience and play?

    And tbh, I find it highly dismissive when you say something like, Oh big deal, you wasted 10 minutes of time giving some player not fullfilling the requirements a shot, what is the big deal.
    The big deal comes from the fact that I over the years have played CM's roughly over 500 times.
    If every other day I play with someone not fullfilling requirements, or would have had no system like KP at all to filter people, and every day would have had to notice 10 minutes in that one or two players simply aren't good enough to clear the content, then we are already just from that alone at over 80h wasted in pure frustration, not taking into consideration haveing to go back LFG and waiting for new players (who might just not work out again).
    Now if I'm playing at reset, usually after the Reset time is over, you just can't find people anymore, so your run is just done and failed that day if a really bad player cheats themselves in and then can't perform, that's 30 minutes preclearing a Fractal and waiting for Reset is wasted, 10 minutes of trying the first CM and failing wasted, 20 minutes of sitting in LFG and trying to find a replacement wasted, and then often times just calling it a night, and either skipping that day or hoping to have time and energy to try again later that day. Now if that happens every day, playing the content 500 times over the years, we are talking about a whopping 500h+ wasted in frustration.
    And even if you don't play at reset and do find a replacement, that's still a couple minutes on LFG again, and then maybe getting yet again another bad player, having to do the whole thing again of trying them out for an attempt or two, back to LFG, etc., which over doing Fractals 500 times still would accumulate to easily 300 hours, spent on wiping and LFG'ing over the years.

    That is why people eventually just ramp up their requirements. Because it's not "just 10 minutes wasted", it's 10 minutes + having to go back to LFG, day after day after day, and after hours of doing that over time, everyone would eventually just get sick and tired of that and put some requirements in place to try to increase the chance of getting proficient players.

    And yes, after having done Shattered Observatory and Nightmare about ~500 times, I genuinely can almost play it with my eyes closed, because proficient groups have a specific cadence to them. We know how much DPS our groups on average have, we know when the boss phases, we know what mechanics are skipped, we know how fast breakbars break, etc.
    Playing CM's for me with a proficient group genuinely is a relaxing trance of efficient smooth gameplay in which I can just relax, almost like a well rehearsed dance you take pleasure in executing well/perfectly, that's what makes, or rather made, them still fun for me after all this time. That I could just "turn off" and watch high level play.
    The problem is though when suddenly someone doesn't at all pull their weight, messes up all the phasing with low DPS, fails mechanics etc., and that whole relaxing run, that basically runs on muscle memory alone, completely falls apart.

    Now I personally don't have any issue carrying and training new people that I know, guildies, friends, friends of friends or even complete strangers at times if they seem nice, and have done so many many times - when I knew what I was in for.
    But when I just want to have a nice smooth and relaxing run and someone lies themselves into the group and then indeed ruins that whole fun and smooth experience, then yea, that's upsetting - especially when I'm not in the mood for it or simply don't have the time/energy for it that day.
    If that then happens 10, 20, 50, a hundred plus times over time, it does indeed become grueling.

    Even more so since usually those less proficient players causing these wipes and slowdowns, no matter how nicely you are trying to help and teach them (if they respond/communicate at all), are some of the most toxic and vile players in the community in my experience, easily rivaling any super hardcore elitist (whom I dislike and avoid just as much if not more).
    If I sacrifice my time and patience helping out someone less experienced and half the time reap insults and harassment as reward when they ultimately fail to perform and get the slightest constructive criticism, then yes, I'm not going to that anymore, or at least try to avoid doing so daily - if I want to keep my mental health somewhat intact.

    So no, asking for KP and such isn't because of "one guy wasting 10 minutes of my time once", it's about literally wasting up to hundreds of hours over the years wiping in content, staring at LFG, or getting insulted, in content which I myself can almost play with my eyes closed. That's not fun.
    It's get's even worse as highly empathetic person who greatly dislikes having to kick people, that's just not a position I want to put myself in regularly if I can avoid it.
    If you can't understand that and why such systems like KP or requirements in general were necessary and how they had nothing at all to do with spiting new players or trying to keep them out of the gamemode, then idk.

    Once again, everybody has the ability to form their own groups. No one's other LFG and requirements, no matter how ridiculous they might seem (and in some cases are), impacts that in any shape or form.
    You can't expect experienced players to just carry strangers in a grueling process every or every other day.
    If you try Fractals once and wipe a group for 10 minutes and get kicked, sure, it's just 10 minutes wasted for you - and them in your eyes, no big deal - but that likely happened many, many, many times to them already before, so it's understandable that they are sick and tired of it.
    That's not the same as active gatekeeping though, and if hardcore players actively didn't want new players in their gamemodes, it would be very strange for them to spend untold amounts of time and effort into guides, websites, videos, builds, training guilds, discords, etc.

    But if you just sit on LFG expecting a no requirement, free carry without putting in any effort yourself (and I'm not saying you do that but as general statement to those who do), then I'm afraid you are the problem, not the people who don't let you join their advanced runs.
    You are keeping yourself out of that content, to no fault of established hardcore players or systems like KP, and painting them as the boogeyman and driving them out of the game won't help you one bit, because even if they are all gone, you and your unwillingness to put in effort, start LFG's and groups and to learn the content will still remain the actual problem, keeping you from the content.
    Take some responsibility, start a group/lfg yourself and put in the work, this is challenging content after all. No one else is keeping you from it.

    TL:DR;
    I know that got long and it's not really about consumables per se but the Fractal/endgame content LFG requirement situation as whole, but just read it if you are upset about LFG requirements and such, it's probably the last time I'm going to try to explain why it's not active malicious gatekeeping to spite new players, but pretty much a necessity to keep the mental health intact of those who play the content regularly.

    The skill gaps in the community are just too high and tutorialisation of the game through too easy Story and OW content too bad to make this everybody welcome to all content utopia possible, and there is a very good reason why people resort to this type of "gating".
    Taking the mechanisms out of the game by which that is done doesn't fix that underlying problem, while ultimately just taking out interesting mechanics and quirks out of the game and driving players away.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    ya really tldr. Where did I say it affect me but the optics sure affect everyone seeing things they have no hopes of acquiring w/o joining those groups. Honestly dude I don't have time for a novel. Ok im done w ab and looting on my alts lets see if theres more then entitlement 10 times that I saw during my skim

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    I knew they were trying to casualize the game the moment I found out how easy it was to make Gen 2 Legendary Weapons.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Ya well explain the hoops in lfg. 250 kp kp.me dwd title ping consumables etc etc. Too any one not in that click it sure seems spiteful and impossible to crack.

    Okay, here is the thing that I never got about that complaint/argument about requirements and how they lock people out of the content and that nobody who makes it ever attempts to explain:
    How does anyone making a group on LFG asking for 250KP, DwD, Title, Consumables etc. affect you or anyone else negatively in any capacity?
    What is at all the issue with that existing? How does it prevent anyone from just joining another group not asking for those things, or should no such group exist, making an own group/LFG not asking for those things?

    And that's where the entitlement accusation comes from. Why does some vocal subset of this community just expect, or rather straight up demand, that other's make LFG's catering to them for them, when everybody has the power to just write their own LFG?
    It's not like any of us who do have KP, titles, consumables etc. just had them fall from the sky. We all started out as beginners.
    It's just some of us posted training LFG's, asked around in guilds, friend lists etc. until we had a group together and tackled and learned the content and earned those things, to then be able to ask for them in others who did as well to then clear the content together in a way that is satisfying to us with like minded players - and others just sit in LFG, watch the postings that aren't fit for them, and then go and cry to the devs that they are locked out of the content by evil elitists who don't want to play with them rather than putting in the work themselves, just expecting a carry.

    How is that not pure entitlement? Why does it matter what other's demand in their LFG? And how does what they demand for their own groups in any way impact the ability of others to make their own groups according to their level of experience and play?

    And tbh, I find it highly dismissive when you say something like, Oh big deal, you wasted 10 minutes of time giving some player not fullfilling the requirements a shot, what is the big deal.
    The big deal comes from the fact that I over the years have played CM's roughly over 500 times.
    If every other day I play with someone not fullfilling requirements, or would have had no system like KP at all to filter people, and every day would have had to notice 10 minutes in that one or two players simply aren't good enough to clear the content, then we are already just from that alone at over 80h wasted in pure frustration, not taking into consideration haveing to go back LFG and waiting for new players (who might just not work out again).
    Now if I'm playing at reset, usually after the Reset time is over, you just can't find people anymore, so your run is just done and failed that day if a really bad player cheats themselves in and then can't perform, that's 30 minutes preclearing a Fractal and waiting for Reset is wasted, 10 minutes of trying the first CM and failing wasted, 20 minutes of sitting in LFG and trying to find a replacement wasted, and then often times just calling it a night, and either skipping that day or hoping to have time and energy to try again later that day. Now if that happens every day, playing the content 500 times over the years, we are talking about a whopping 500h+ wasted in frustration.
    And even if you don't play at reset and do find a replacement, that's still a couple minutes on LFG again, and then maybe getting yet again another bad player, having to do the whole thing again of trying them out for an attempt or two, back to LFG, etc., which over doing Fractals 500 times still would accumulate to easily 300 hours, spent on wiping and LFG'ing over the years.

    That is why people eventually just ramp up their requirements. Because it's not "just 10 minutes wasted", it's 10 minutes + having to go back to LFG, day after day after day, and after hours of doing that over time, everyone would eventually just get sick and tired of that and put some requirements in place to try to increase the chance of getting proficient players.

    And yes, after having done Shattered Observatory and Nightmare about ~500 times, I genuinely can almost play it with my eyes closed, because proficient groups have a specific cadence to them. We know how much DPS our groups on average have, we know when the boss phases, we know what mechanics are skipped, we know how fast breakbars break, etc.
    Playing CM's for me with a proficient group genuinely is a relaxing trance of efficient smooth gameplay in which I can just relax, almost like a well rehearsed dance you take pleasure in executing well/perfectly, that's what makes, or rather made, them still fun for me after all this time. That I could just "turn off" and watch high level play.
    The problem is though when suddenly someone doesn't at all pull their weight, messes up all the phasing with low DPS, fails mechanics etc., and that whole relaxing run, that basically runs on muscle memory alone, completely falls apart.

    Now I personally don't have any issue carrying and training new people that I know, guildies, friends, friends of friends or even complete strangers at times if they seem nice, and have done so many many times - when I knew what I was in for.
    But when I just want to have a nice smooth and relaxing run and someone lies themselves into the group and then indeed ruins that whole fun and smooth experience, then yea, that's upsetting - especially when I'm not in the mood for it or simply don't have the time/energy for it that day.
    If that then happens 10, 20, 50, a hundred plus times over time, it does indeed become grueling.

    Even more so since usually those less proficient players causing these wipes and slowdowns, no matter how nicely you are trying to help and teach them (if they respond/communicate at all), are some of the most toxic and vile players in the community in my experience, easily rivaling any super hardcore elitist (whom I dislike and avoid just as much if not more).
    If I sacrifice my time and patience helping out someone less experienced and half the time reap insults and harassment as reward when they ultimately fail to perform and get the slightest constructive criticism, then yes, I'm not going to that anymore, or at least try to avoid doing so daily - if I want to keep my mental health somewhat intact.

    So no, asking for KP and such isn't because of "one guy wasting 10 minutes of my time once", it's about literally wasting up to hundreds of hours over the years wiping in content, staring at LFG, or getting insulted, in content which I myself can almost play with my eyes closed. That's not fun.
    It's get's even worse as highly empathetic person who greatly dislikes having to kick people, that's just not a position I want to put myself in regularly if I can avoid it.
    If you can't understand that and why such systems like KP or requirements in general were necessary and how they had nothing at all to do with spiting new players or trying to keep them out of the gamemode, then idk.

    Once again, everybody has the ability to form their own groups. No one's other LFG and requirements, no matter how ridiculous they might seem (and in some cases are), impacts that in any shape or form.
    You can't expect experienced players to just carry strangers in a grueling process every or every other day.
    If you try Fractals once and wipe a group for 10 minutes and get kicked, sure, it's just 10 minutes wasted for you - and them in your eyes, no big deal - but that likely happened many, many, many times to them already before, so it's understandable that they are sick and tired of it.
    That's not the same as active gatekeeping though, and if hardcore players actively didn't want new players in their gamemodes, it would be very strange for them to spend untold amounts of time and effort into guides, websites, videos, builds, training guilds, discords, etc.

    But if you just sit on LFG expecting a no requirement, free carry without putting in any effort yourself (and I'm not saying you do that but as general statement to those who do), then I'm afraid you are the problem, not the people who don't let you join their advanced runs.
    You are keeping yourself out of that content, to no fault of established hardcore players or systems like KP, and painting them as the boogeyman and driving them out of the game won't help you one bit, because even if they are all gone, you and your unwillingness to put in effort, start LFG's and groups and to learn the content will still remain the actual problem, keeping you from the content.
    Take some responsibility, start a group/lfg yourself and put in the work, this is challenging content after all. No one else is keeping you from it.

    TL:DR;
    I know that got long and it's not really about consumables per se but the Fractal/endgame content LFG requirement situation as whole, but just read it if you are upset about LFG requirements and such, it's probably the last time I'm going to try to explain why it's not active malicious gatekeeping to spite new players, but pretty much a necessity to keep the mental health intact of those who play the content regularly.

    The skill gaps in the community are just too high and tutorialisation of the game through too easy Story and OW content too bad to make this everybody welcome to all content utopia possible, and there is a very good reason why people resort to this type of "gating".
    Taking the mechanisms out of the game by which that is done doesn't fix that underlying problem, while ultimately just taking out interesting mechanics and quirks out of the game and driving players away.

    Idk how I write put w/e you want in lfg and I don't join lfg I don't qualify for and get a 17 paragraph reply. You seem to have huge issues with a game and expect perfect play everytime because you are so bored and used to the content you can't adjust at all to anything but perfection and to be quite honest why are you still playing w pugs instead of when you get that perfect run you go hay guys same time tomorrow night or add 50 players you had these runs with a friends instead of rolling the dice since it upsets you so much. And if you need to muster up energy to do something like play a game walk away from the content.

    You just can't see that insane reqs like 250 exclude everyone from bads to guys who converted to guys who even vendered this kitten. It also scares players off if that's all that's in lfg so why 250 and 216 isn't enough or 199. Did those last 12-25 runs now put me over the hump to elite. Anets mistake was not force converting all on log in into wallet cause ya this is worse now for anyone new not the dude who ran kitten 500 times unless of course he gambles everynight on pugs. Like why? That is by far the most baffling thing about you. It's like going to the dmv everyday expecting no line and getting upset when there is one.

    I'm not asking anyone to carry anyone but why in harder than raid content is there no training runs to increase the pool. No guilds etc advertising except of course today. Looking for CM runners must have dwd and lnhb. Join that guild dude. Then you can never stress again.
    As for wasted time I bet you wasted more time in lfg with reqs then the time you lost kicking bads but tbh we all waste time playing mmos because we have time to waste otherwise I'd do something that's actually productive.
    And the driving you out of the game is funny. I can't and won't play with you types anyway so no we won't miss you if your gone because we never could qualify to play with you in the first place. You need a new game. That's my suggestion to you other then arguing with me and projecting this issues w GW2 and GW2 players who caused you stress onto me. If im just an outlet for you I don't mind.
    It is fun watching t4 lfg
    guard guard guard rev
    guard guard guard rev
    Guard guard rev sb
    Guard guard guard sb
    You don't get to see the 5th as it disappears
    Throw in a few odd classes every 5 lfgs but the guard guard rev is almost static
    That is skill stacking and playing the exact same classes the exact same way as everyone else. That isn't a fun game to me and I will never conform to that garbo

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    You seem to have huge issues with a game and expect perfect play everytime because you are so bored and used to the content you can't adjust at all to anything but perfection and to be quite honest why are you still playing w pugs instead of when you get that perfect run you go hay guys same time tomorrow night or add 50 players you had these runs with a friends instead of rolling the dice since it upsets you so much. And if you need to muster up energy to do something like play a game walk away from the content.

    Not perfect play, by far, but I will admit that I just don't have the patience anymore for 1h30m+ runs, wiping, people leaving, going back to LFG etc. and that when I play that content I just want to have a smooth and fun run without all that frustration.

    As for the group thing that you suggested, I used to do that for a very long time - basically forming semi statics, swapping out members as people came and went.
    The problem with that eventually was just that people were quitting the game at such rapid rates (including me for times with things like the "Template" patch and other missteps by Anet) that it just wasn't fun or possible to replace them anymore at that same rate by getting to know new somewhat competent players.
    Ultimately I did walk away from it, yea.

    I'm currently playing extremely casually (mostly just PvP/dailies at times), really just waiting for new developments. But it is disappointing that everytime I check in with a new patch it's Anet taking yet another thing out of the game, rather than adding to it and bringing players back in.

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    You just can't see that insane reqs like 250 exclude everyone from bads to guys who converted to guys who even vendered this kitten. It also scares players off if that's all that's in lfg so why 250 and 216 isn't enough or 199. Did those last 12-25 runs now put me over the hump to elite. Anets mistake was not force converting all on log in into wallet cause ya this is worse now for anyone new not the dude who ran kitten 500 times unless of course he gambles everynight on pugs. Like why? That is by far the most baffling thing about you. It's like going to the dmv everyday expecting no line and getting upset when there is one.

    First of all, for the majority of groups that I have been a part of, those requirements really are just meant as experience/confidence check, not a hard gate.
    Pretty much every KP gated group I have been part of was more than welcoming of people with less KP joining who were upfront about it and confident in their skill, as long as the KP they had was still somewhat in a reasonable realm.
    So for a majority of 250 KP groups, 216 or 199 would, in my experience, actually be more than fine still.

    Also I didn't gamble every night on pugs as I had several (semi)statics for the majority of time playing. I started the content pugging and then again towards the end as more and more often 1-2 slots had to be filled as there were simply not enough players interested in statics left, until eventually the whole thing fell apart completely with a huge exodus of entire Guilds like my whole Raid static/community etc. quitting due to lack of content and dwindling interest.

    After taking some break myself I tried to make pugging work again which worked fine for a time, but now with this whole new mess of the weird KP situation you describe and Anet further chipping away at the content rather than adding to it, it just doesn't feel like the endgame- content and community has much future anymore.

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    I'm not asking anyone to carry anyone but why in harder than raid content is there no training runs to increase the pool. No guilds etc advertising except of course today. Looking for CM runners must have dwd and lnhb. Join that guild dude. Then you can never stress again.
    As for wasted time I bet you wasted more time in lfg with reqs then the time you lost kicking bads but tbh we all waste time playing mmos because we have time to waste otherwise I'd do something that's actually productive.
    And the driving you out of the game is funny. I can't and won't play with you types anyway so no we won't miss you if your gone because we never could qualify to play with you in the first place. You need a new game. That's my suggestion to you other then arguing with me and projecting this issues w GW2 and GW2 players who caused you stress onto me. If im just an outlet for you I don't mind.
    It is fun watching t4 lfg
    guard guard guard rev
    guard guard guard rev
    Guard guard rev sb
    Guard guard guard sb
    You don't get to see the 5th as it disappears
    Throw in a few odd classes every 5 lfgs but the guard guard rev is almost static
    That is skill stacking and playing the exact same classes the exact same way as everyone else. That isn't a fun game to me and I will never conform to that garbo

    Training for Fractals/CM's usually happen within Guilds and communities, at least that's how we have almost always done it.
    I also generally ran at ~100KP and was more than accepting of people with 50+KP, as well as giving new people a shot and training others on top of always preferring more casual and smooth runs with a healer, not that you think just because I defend KP or have 1k myself I'm necessarily of the 800+KP no heal super speed run crowd that no new player, no matter how skilled, can ever realistically reach anymore.
    But even just that level of play is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain.

    I agree it's time to move to something else or to at least take a prolonged break, but it ain't really my fault CDPR keeps delaying Cyberpunk 2077, and I'am, despite all, still very attached to this franchise, having played GW1-2 on and off, but mostly on, for 15 years now.
    If that long term attachment wasn't there, I surely would have moved on from the game and community (incl. these forums) a long time ago with most everybody else of the more endgame focused community as that's clearly just not catered to.
    I'm well aware we won't be missed. I do think it's a shame though to lose that aspect of the game since Anet fairly easily could have catered to more than just the ultra casual LW/Open World crowd with fairly minimal effort, and I'm baffled that they seem to actively work against retaining player groups who were even still playing very actively while getting no content or updates for years at a time by actively and repeatedly taking features away from them. That just seems fairly silly to me, especially since it comes with no positive trade off as every one of those changes just makes a bigger mess of things, especially for the more casual audience they are targeted at who wont ever engage with this content at large anyway, while ofc losing those who do and are.

    What I wrote in that statement wasn't entirely directed towards you (as I tried to convey) but more as a general statement to people of the requirements are the issue crowd (when really they are just a flawed but necessary solution to the actual problem which remains unaddressed), but thank you regardless for letting me vent.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • guard guard guard guard rev exclusive combo is definitely asking for nerf to ground on next update :D

    1. Why is there so much bothering about breaking 100 CM Sorrows?
      Does the damage absorbing skills not work any more? Like the engi's heal kit or herald's dragon heal skill.
      What about various invulnerability skills? Im not into 100cm, so I dont know. Just asking.
      Cant you absorb and skip those Sorrow blasts on different classes?

    2. Removing fun little options is a bad idea. Anet, you know what? There are multiple skips in fractals that we perform every day.
      That is a very very much unintended way to play. Waiting for you to put invisible walls everywhere to prevent skips.
      Why not banning the portal devices and choya tonics? Please do your best in flattening and dubming down the gameplay to the ground.
      I can only repeat what was said many time already. Veterans can find little tricks funny and pleasuring.
      But clueless devs dont know what is fun and harmless in their game (things that dont need "fixing").
      They prefer to screw veterans forcing them to play the only narrow "valid / intended" way, instead of letting them have fun with items/mechs.
      Let your playerbase have fun (no bug abuse or exploits involved) or force it to play the only way you want..
      This is not even a question for Anet, as we see

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sinful Mustache.3589 said:
    1. Why is there so much bothering about breaking 100 CM Sorrows?
    Does the damage absorbing skills not work any more? Like the engi's heal kit or herald's dragon heal skill.
    What about various invulnerability skills? Im not into 100cm, so I dont know. Just asking.
    Cant you absorb and skip those Sorrow blasts on different classes?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar

    Sunqua Peak Fractal (Challenge Mote) Ai, Keeper of the Peak Sorrow None 1500 10 seconds Interrupts the cast of the deadly spell and defeats Sorrow

    Some things can't be face tanked.

    Exposed is an effect applied on several enemies when their Defiance bar is depleted.
    Increases incoming direct and condition damage the target takes by 50%.

    and sometimes it's merely about having actually good damage, shortening phases.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar
    Some things can't be face tanked.
    and sometimes it's merely about having actually good damage, shortening phases.

    I know what cc is. Question was about absorbing that deadly blast from Sorrows

    That blast is the only bit of problem, because NOT breaking Ai at all doesnt lead to wipe afaik

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    @Sinful Mustache.3589 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar
    Some things can't be face tanked.
    and sometimes it's merely about having actually good damage, shortening phases.

    I know what cc is. Question was about absorbing that deadly blast from Sorrows

    That blast is the only bit of problem, because NOT breaking Ai at all doesnt lead to wipe afaik

    I didn't link the page so you could read up on cc. I linked it so you could read up what breaking the bar does since you asked.

    Linking a 30 minute video, which by the way is out of date since the changes shortly after, is hardly helpful. Also it's not the boss breakbar you need to break, it's the SORROW's breakbar which does the aoe kill attack, which in this video is countered with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infuse_Light, the Heralds heal. Not all classes have access to such a heal.

    EDIT: and even IF a class had access to such heal skills. Chances are high they won't be up multiple times are they are when 1 player does solo damage against the boss for experienced groups. For inexperienced groups timing these skills properly would be the biggest issue. That is when looking past the entire aspect of now removing all other classes which do not have access to such heals from the fight.

    No one is arguing you can't turtle through the fight, because you can. As a matter of fact, that's how some players got their DwD.