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I think META on FOR/TP CM DRMs is ranged DPS

Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

As a mirage mesmer, For kicks and giggles I decided to equip my GS (diviner's -> I don't keep pure DPS one because it's not really meta for the content I do with my GS build) on my sword zerker's set and in a random group we cleared TP DRM with 45 seconds to spare. We barely missed the timer on FOR (30s) BUT I died once and my team was constantly dying. I feel like the bosses on these DRMs heavily punish melee builds and almost all SC and DPS builds are melee heavy. Granted my randoms in the TP one knew mechanics, so we didn't die during spears and adds were light. But I think more people need to be running as close to pure ranged DPS as possible, if you have a ranged support build, I guess that works if you have pure DPS you can amplify on your team to a point where it's better with you + them as support instead of DPS.

Comments

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    It's not. Melee is still the higher DPS option and most groups seem to need as much DPS as they can get. I also feel that everyone should just go full DPS because most of the people I see that do go DPS are doing less than 10K which won't be enough if there are support players. I see too many people trying to get a balanced party but that only works if your DPS can actually DPS.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's not. Melee is still the higher DPS option and most groups seem to need as much DPS as they can get. I also feel that everyone should just go full DPS because most of the people I see that do go DPS are doing less than 10K which won't be enough if there are support players. I see too many people trying to get a balanced party but that only works if your DPS can actually DPS.

    In my experience it may be meta for the same reason you say having everyone DPS is meta, most people struggle with the intensity of mechanics in melee. I think it's pretty telling the group that died more was also the one we barely failed on.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, you're probably absolutely right that well-played melee is better.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's not. Melee is still the higher DPS option and most groups seem to need as much DPS as they can get. I also feel that everyone should just go full DPS because most of the people I see that do go DPS are doing less than 10K which won't be enough if there are support players. I see too many people trying to get a balanced party but that only works if your DPS can actually DPS.

    In my experience it may be meta for the same reason you say having everyone DPS is meta, most people struggle with the intensity of mechanics in melee. I think it's pretty telling the group that died more was also the one we barely failed on.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, you're probably absolutely right that well-played melee is better.

    The issue is that ranged attacks are lower DPS and it’s low DPS that is causing people to fail. Having players all go range is just setting them up to fail even more.

    There’s really no reason to fail mechanics. The Thunderhead boss is pretty much the matriarch wyvern. The FoR boss players just have to get out away from the boss when it does the telegraph for the one attack. It’s not like it’s a raid which is throwing many mechanics at you at once.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's not. Melee is still the higher DPS option and most groups seem to need as much DPS as they can get. I also feel that everyone should just go full DPS because most of the people I see that do go DPS are doing less than 10K which won't be enough if there are support players. I see too many people trying to get a balanced party but that only works if your DPS can actually DPS.

    In my experience it may be meta for the same reason you say having everyone DPS is meta, most people struggle with the intensity of mechanics in melee. I think it's pretty telling the group that died more was also the one we barely failed on.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, you're probably absolutely right that well-played melee is better.

    The issue is that ranged attacks are lower DPS and it’s low DPS that is causing people to fail. Having players all go range is just setting them up to fail even more.

    There’s really no reason to fail mechanics. The Thunderhead boss is pretty much the matriarch wyvern. The FoR boss players just have to get out away from the boss when it does the telegraph for the one attack. It’s not like it’s a raid which is throwing many mechanics at you at once.

    I feel like there's been times I've been out of the AOE but still got burn pulsed on me if I stood too close, there's also been a few other times where something caught me off guard, not sure what, but whatever. Dead people don't do damage. i don't think I'm wrong in my assesment that some people are so bad at avoiding damage that they'd be better off ranged. To each their own. In fact I'm fairly certain we wouldn't have failed FoR if some of my team mates were.

    EDIT: It's also not truthful that there's no overlapping mechanics in FoR, he does spawn the flame wave and does his attack separately from it. I believe there's another AOE as well that can happen simultaneously (circles). In fact sometimes there's so many it piles up something nasty.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Meta is just taking Deldrimor dwarves whenever you can and spam their special action because it not only CCs but also deals a ton of damage on top of your own.

    Pls just permaban me by now so I can stop going back here

  • The Fear.3865The Fear.3865 Member ✭✭✭

    Meta is to ask for dhuum kp on lfg :bleep_bloop:

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So much balance, that class diversity right there......

    To be brutally clear, it's not that I want guardians nerfed, I just think too many mechanics are hard countered by them. I feel like when such large disparities in class capability exist, it's a clear balance problem.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So much balance, that class diversity right there......

    To be brutally clear, it's not that I want guardians nerfed, I just think too many mechanics are hard countered by them. I feel like when such large disparities in class capability exist, it's a clear balance problem.

    First off, every class is very much capable of doing the CMs. Secondly, with all of the classes/builds in the game as well as the numerous encounters, it's unreasonable to assume that every class/build would be equally balanced for every encounter. I mean, in your OP you were claiming range to be meta. Would that be considered balanced? It's wrong to assume that things are not balanced just because something else is optimal.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So much balance, that class diversity right there......

    To be brutally clear, it's not that I want guardians nerfed, I just think too many mechanics are hard countered by them. I feel like when such large disparities in class capability exist, it's a clear balance problem.

    First off, every class is very much capable of doing the CMs. Secondly, with all of the classes/builds in the game as well as the numerous encounters, it's unreasonable to assume that every class/build would be equally balanced for every encounter. I mean, in your OP you were claiming range to be meta. Would that be considered balanced? It's wrong to assume that things are not balanced just because something else is optimal.

    What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced.

    Also it's insane as far as balance is concerned to have a meta be stacking multiple classes of the same type when the total party size isn't even big enough to have 1 of every class.

    Many classes have a ranged option. Almost anyone playing an RPG likes to main and/or play a given class, and as far as that's concerned i feel like any individual profession should be very competitive against any other in a given encounter (perhaps they need to change build, but they should still bring something).

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So much balance, that class diversity right there......

    To be brutally clear, it's not that I want guardians nerfed, I just think too many mechanics are hard countered by them. I feel like when such large disparities in class capability exist, it's a clear balance problem.

    First off, every class is very much capable of doing the CMs. Secondly, with all of the classes/builds in the game as well as the numerous encounters, it's unreasonable to assume that every class/build would be equally balanced for every encounter. I mean, in your OP you were claiming range to be meta. Would that be considered balanced? It's wrong to assume that things are not balanced just because something else is optimal.

    What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced.

    Then it's a matter of preference regarding what's unbalanced. You find ranged being preferred over melee perfectly okay but dislike how certain classes may be more preferred in optimal situations. In both situations a group of players are being preferred but in only one of them you are negatively affected. Meta, or optimal, comps are not the only way that something can be done. This has been repeated over and over since the game launched. You can easily complete every DRM CM with all DPS players assuming that they can do actual DPS and not completely fail mechanics. Every class is capable of doing enough DPS.

    Also it's insane as far as balance is concerned to have a meta be stacking multiple classes of the same type when the total party size isn't even big enough to have 1 of every class.

    What should a party have one of every class? Why should an encounter be balanced around you needing one of every class?

    Many classes have a ranged option. Almost anyone playing an RPG likes to main and/or play a given class, and as far as that's concerned i feel like any individual profession should be very competitive against any other in a given encounter (perhaps they need to change build, but they should still bring something).

    Yes, all classes have a ranged option. I'm against it being meta because it's significantly lower DPS compared to melee and DPS is the reason that people are failing the timer CM. Before I gave up on doing it in groups, practically everyone I was in a group with was doing under 10K DPS. There's no way to complete the CMs with DPS that low.

    Every class being competitive against every other class in any encounter is unrealistic. However, every class can still perform well at the CMs. They just need to work on their builds and most definitely their DPS. Just for clarification, when I say work on their DPS, I'm not saying get it to raid level.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So much balance, that class diversity right there......

    To be brutally clear, it's not that I want guardians nerfed, I just think too many mechanics are hard countered by them. I feel like when such large disparities in class capability exist, it's a clear balance problem.

    First off, every class is very much capable of doing the CMs. Secondly, with all of the classes/builds in the game as well as the numerous encounters, it's unreasonable to assume that every class/build would be equally balanced for every encounter. I mean, in your OP you were claiming range to be meta. Would that be considered balanced? It's wrong to assume that things are not balanced just because something else is optimal.

    What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced.

    Then it's a matter of preference regarding what's unbalanced. You find ranged being preferred over melee perfectly okay but dislike how certain classes may be more preferred in optimal situations. In both situations a group of players are being preferred but in only one of them you are negatively affected. Meta, or optimal, comps are not the only way that something can be done. This has been repeated over and over since the game launched. You can easily complete every DRM CM with all DPS players assuming that they can do actual DPS and not completely fail mechanics. Every class is capable of doing enough DPS.

    You've massively misinterpreted what I've said, not sure if a conversation is even valuable anymore. I gave an example where ranged isn't meta and clearly said I'm fine with metas changing between encounters, it's when something features over and over there's a problem. Also note, you're talking about playstyle metas, I'm talking about profession metas. Also note guardian isn't meta just because of DPS, it's the defensive capabilities that make it so preferred. It has those AND damage. PROFESSION balance is what I started talking about. If you keep going off about ranged, you're missing the point entirely.

    Also it's insane as far as balance is concerned to have a meta be stacking multiple classes of the same type when the total party size isn't even big enough to have 1 of every class.

    What should a party have one of every class? Why should an encounter be balanced around you needing one of every class?

    Why have any more professions if one is god? I've never seen an MMO where the devs thought it was healthy to have 1 god class until now. The whole point on an RPG is to play a class you identify with, so being sub-par just because you want to have fun is bad. I thought that was just generally understood.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As a mirage mesmer, For kicks and giggles I decided to equip my GS

    It's entirely possible you don't understand what meta is.
    Feel free to dispute with screenshots/videos/arc.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I think we need to establish a ground rule here ... . meta is not based on what someone 'experiences'. It's an estimation of what builds are best for an encounter based on empirical evidence and the encounter mechanics assuming the player is capable of handling the mechanics of the encounter and the rotation of the build.

    It doesn't make sense to conclude what is meta based on what you see as successful or not.

    I somewhat agree. That makes sense. But also note if a player in a group is incapable of playing the "raw, highest DPS meta" that perhaps a different playstyle is their actual meta. An interesting case of this I can tell you about was arcane meta in WoW during BFA, equipoise was the go-to trait, yet, I created a high mana generation build that did better with arcane pummeling against most other mage players of the same or lower ilvl (I even beat some arcane mages with higher ilvl). I knew I wouldn't do well with that build because I suck at burst windows, so I built a build that was better for my playstyle and i ended up crushing players who were incapable of playing that "optimal" meta. I would still lose against a good player, but they were rare in my raid PuGs. I even topped the charts occaisionally. So there is a difference between an absolute meta and the meta for a given group. Which is my biggest issue with the GW2 community as a whole, I feel like players tend to get criticized for self honesty, It might also be a weakness of the game's design that does this. The skill gap between players is much higher on this MMO than any other and as I've mentioned in other threads, there's no ilvl climb that can compensate for bad skill.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The meta is knowing how to use the dodge key.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    The meta is knowing how to use the dodge key.

    Well if I'm to believe the randos in my PuGs, this boss is harder than a raid boss and/or fractal CM (at least the few who've commented), but sure let's just assume they're really bad players, totally constructive.

    Though i would argue dodging is a terrible mechanic for a latency based always online game and boss mechanics. It basically means either the telegraphs are so long everyone is totally out of it, or it's so clutch any miss in latency and you're dead.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I think we need to establish a ground rule here ... . meta is not based on what someone 'experiences'. It's an estimation of what builds are best for an encounter based on empirical evidence and the encounter mechanics assuming the player is capable of handling the mechanics of the encounter and the rotation of the build.

    It doesn't make sense to conclude what is meta based on what you see as successful or not.

    I somewhat agree. That makes sense. But also note if a player in a group is incapable of playing the "raw, highest DPS meta" that perhaps a different playstyle is their actual meta.

    Well, the meta doesn't change with player ... that's my point. Meta is independent of player ability. Again, it's what is best based on testing.

    I mean, if a player can't exercise the meta and it's rotation, sure they should play something else ... but there is no meta 'for them' ... Meta means something very specific so there is no reason to argue it should be redefined to include player capability.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So much balance, that class diversity right there......

    To be brutally clear, it's not that I want guardians nerfed, I just think too many mechanics are hard countered by them. I feel like when such large disparities in class capability exist, it's a clear balance problem.

    First off, every class is very much capable of doing the CMs. Secondly, with all of the classes/builds in the game as well as the numerous encounters, it's unreasonable to assume that every class/build would be equally balanced for every encounter. I mean, in your OP you were claiming range to be meta. Would that be considered balanced? It's wrong to assume that things are not balanced just because something else is optimal.

    What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced.

    Then it's a matter of preference regarding what's unbalanced. You find ranged being preferred over melee perfectly okay but dislike how certain classes may be more preferred in optimal situations. In both situations a group of players are being preferred but in only one of them you are negatively affected. Meta, or optimal, comps are not the only way that something can be done. This has been repeated over and over since the game launched. You can easily complete every DRM CM with all DPS players assuming that they can do actual DPS and not completely fail mechanics. Every class is capable of doing enough DPS.

    You've massively misinterpreted what I've said, not sure if a conversation is even valuable anymore. I gave an example where ranged isn't meta and clearly said I'm fine with metas changing between encounters, it's when something features over and over there's a problem. Also note, you're talking about playstyle metas, I'm talking about profession metas. Also note guardian isn't meta just because of DPS, it's the defensive capabilities that make it so preferred. It has those AND damage. PROFESSION balance is what I started talking about. If you keep going off about ranged, you're missing the point entirely.

    I'm not misinterpreting anything. I simply highlighted a contradictory/hypocritical part of your post where you were fine with ranged being meta over melee but took issue with a certain build being meta over others. You say your fine with metas changing between encounters for the 4 cfb + 1 ren isn't really meta anywhere else that I can think of. I question it being the meta here as well. As long as people don't fail mechanics, ANY DPS CLASS CAN SUCCEED COMFORTABLY DOING DRM CMS.

    Defensive being aegis? Tempests have rebound and scourges have barrier. Both of those negate some or all damage.

    Also it's insane as far as balance is concerned to have a meta be stacking multiple classes of the same type when the total party size isn't even big enough to have 1 of every class.

    What should a party have one of every class? Why should an encounter be balanced around you needing one of every class?

    Why have any more professions if one is god? I've never seen an MMO where the devs thought it was healthy to have 1 god class until now.

    You're too hyper-focused on there being a balanced between optimal classes for every scenario which is incredibly unrealistic. As I've stated multiple times, any class is capable of doing any content in the game. This very much includes the CMs for DRMs.

    The whole point on an RPG is to play a class you identify with, so being sub-par just because you want to have fun is bad. I thought that was just generally understood.

    Players are subpar all the time so why does the profession that they play matter in regards to that? Your statement that "being sub-par just because you want to have fun is bad" can easily be applied against those who don't even try to be good in the game and simply want to have fun in their own way. So all of those who are doing poor DPS and refuse to perform the mechanics better, are bad according to your statement because they're choosing to be subpar in favor of having fun in their own way.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    I'm not misinterpreting anything. I simply highlighted a contradictory/hypocritical part of your post where you were fine with ranged being meta over melee but took issue with a certain build being meta over others. You say your fine with metas changing between encounters for the 4 cfb + 1 ren isn't really meta anywhere else that I can think of. I question it being the meta here as well. As long as people don't fail mechanics, ANY DPS CLASS CAN SUCCEED COMFORTABLY DOING DRM CMS.

    Its meta'ish in 100cm. 5 fb for phase 1 and 2 ren, 2fb, slb for phase 2. Nobody relogs for 2nd phase so you usually play with 4 or 3 fbs.

    Defensive being aegis? Tempests have rebound and scourges have barrier. Both of those negate some or all damage.

    Rebound has a massive cd and only works vs killing blow. Barrier doesnt work vs hard hitting pve champs. It doesnt negate the dmg. Scourge has also by far the lowest dps.

    You're too hyper-focused on there being a balanced between optimal classes for every scenario which is incredibly unrealistic. As I've stated multiple times, any class is capable of doing any content in the game. This very much includes the CMs for DRMs.

    Some cant really pull their weight. There is a 30-40% gap between scourge and meta dps and mesmer is very bad in fractals.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Well if I'm to believe the randos in my PuGs, this boss is harder than a raid boss and/or fractal CM (at least the few who've commented), but sure let's just assume they're really bad players, totally constructive.

    Not really. A decent teamcomp facerolls through them. Doesnt even matter which one as long as boons are covered. 4fb + ren is just by far the easiest in my experience. Tome resets constantly and the aegis spam blocks so many attacks.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    The meta is knowing how to use the dodge key.

    Well if I'm to believe the randos in my PuGs, this boss is harder than a raid boss and/or fractal CM (at least the few who've commented), but sure let's just assume they're really bad players, totally constructive.

    Though i would argue dodging is a terrible mechanic for a latency based always online game and boss mechanics. It basically means either the telegraphs are so long everyone is totally out of it, or it's so clutch any miss in latency and you're dead.

    The boss is just like tanking matriarch on q1. All moves can be side stepped except for the shockwave where you have to dodge into the wave. 3 of 4 boss this are cakewalk once you know the mechanics.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    I'm not misinterpreting anything. I simply highlighted a contradictory/hypocritical part of your post where you were fine with ranged being meta over melee but took issue with a certain build being meta over others. You say your fine with metas changing between encounters for the 4 cfb + 1 ren isn't really meta anywhere else that I can think of. I question it being the meta here as well. As long as people don't fail mechanics, ANY DPS CLASS CAN SUCCEED COMFORTABLY DOING DRM CMS.

    Its meta'ish in 100cm. 5 fb for phase 1 and 2 ren, 2fb, slb for phase 2. Nobody relogs for 2nd phase so you usually play with 4 or 3 fbs.

    Ah. I don't really do fractals anymore so I didn't know that was a thing for that one.

    Defensive being aegis? Tempests have rebound and scourges have barrier. Both of those negate some or all damage.

    Rebound has a massive cd and only works vs killing blow. Barrier doesnt work vs hard hitting pve champs. It doesnt negate the dmg. Scourge has also by far the lowest dps.

    I was just listing defensive capabilities that a couple other classes offer that's similar to aegis. Barrier has often been used to hard carry players more so than aegis. It works fairly well for the Snowden CM so long as you strip the boons off the boss.

    You're too hyper-focused on there being a balanced between optimal classes for every scenario which is incredibly unrealistic. As I've stated multiple times, any class is capable of doing any content in the game. This very much includes the CMs for DRMs.

    Some cant really pull their weight. There is a 30-40% gap between scourge and meta dps and mesmer is very bad in fractals.

    Are you speaking about DRMs or fractals in your post?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So much balance, that class diversity right there......

    To be brutally clear, it's not that I want guardians nerfed, I just think too many mechanics are hard countered by them. I feel like when such large disparities in class capability exist, it's a clear balance problem.

    First off, every class is very much capable of doing the CMs. Secondly, with all of the classes/builds in the game as well as the numerous encounters, it's unreasonable to assume that every class/build would be equally balanced for every encounter. I mean, in your OP you were claiming range to be meta. Would that be considered balanced? It's wrong to assume that things are not balanced just because something else is optimal.

    What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced.

    Then it's a matter of preference regarding what's unbalanced. You find ranged being preferred over melee perfectly okay but dislike how certain classes may be more preferred in optimal situations. In both situations a group of players are being preferred but in only one of them you are negatively affected. Meta, or optimal, comps are not the only way that something can be done. This has been repeated over and over since the game launched. You can easily complete every DRM CM with all DPS players assuming that they can do actual DPS and not completely fail mechanics. Every class is capable of doing enough DPS.

    You've massively misinterpreted what I've said, not sure if a conversation is even valuable anymore. I gave an example where ranged isn't meta and clearly said I'm fine with metas changing between encounters, it's when something features over and over there's a problem. Also note, you're talking about playstyle metas, I'm talking about profession metas. Also note guardian isn't meta just because of DPS, it's the defensive capabilities that make it so preferred. It has those AND damage. PROFESSION balance is what I started talking about. If you keep going off about ranged, you're missing the point entirely.

    I'm not misinterpreting anything. I simply highlighted a contradictory/hypocritical part of your post where you were fine with ranged being meta over melee but took issue with a certain build being meta over others.

    You absolutely are:

    " What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced. "

    I never said I wanted range in every scenario, i'm just wondering where this hyporcisy comes from. And again, you're focused on playstyle when I started talking about professions. Maybe you can highlight what I said that gave you this impression?

    This entire thread was started about two SPECIFIC DRMs. I never claimed range was meta for everything.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So much balance, that class diversity right there......

    To be brutally clear, it's not that I want guardians nerfed, I just think too many mechanics are hard countered by them. I feel like when such large disparities in class capability exist, it's a clear balance problem.

    First off, every class is very much capable of doing the CMs. Secondly, with all of the classes/builds in the game as well as the numerous encounters, it's unreasonable to assume that every class/build would be equally balanced for every encounter. I mean, in your OP you were claiming range to be meta. Would that be considered balanced? It's wrong to assume that things are not balanced just because something else is optimal.

    What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced.

    Then it's a matter of preference regarding what's unbalanced. You find ranged being preferred over melee perfectly okay but dislike how certain classes may be more preferred in optimal situations. In both situations a group of players are being preferred but in only one of them you are negatively affected. Meta, or optimal, comps are not the only way that something can be done. This has been repeated over and over since the game launched. You can easily complete every DRM CM with all DPS players assuming that they can do actual DPS and not completely fail mechanics. Every class is capable of doing enough DPS.

    You've massively misinterpreted what I've said, not sure if a conversation is even valuable anymore. I gave an example where ranged isn't meta and clearly said I'm fine with metas changing between encounters, it's when something features over and over there's a problem. Also note, you're talking about playstyle metas, I'm talking about profession metas. Also note guardian isn't meta just because of DPS, it's the defensive capabilities that make it so preferred. It has those AND damage. PROFESSION balance is what I started talking about. If you keep going off about ranged, you're missing the point entirely.

    I'm not misinterpreting anything. I simply highlighted a contradictory/hypocritical part of your post where you were fine with ranged being meta over melee but took issue with a certain build being meta over others.

    You absolutely are:

    " What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced. "

    I never said I wanted range in every scenario. And again, you're focused on playstyle when I started talking about professions.

    This entire thread was started about two SPECIFIC DRMs. I never claimed range was meta for everything.

    Range is not meta for anything, its a lot easier then melee but that dont make it meta in any way shape or form.
    Thunder head peak you have to be melee range to kill eggs you cant range them.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So much balance, that class diversity right there......

    To be brutally clear, it's not that I want guardians nerfed, I just think too many mechanics are hard countered by them. I feel like when such large disparities in class capability exist, it's a clear balance problem.

    First off, every class is very much capable of doing the CMs. Secondly, with all of the classes/builds in the game as well as the numerous encounters, it's unreasonable to assume that every class/build would be equally balanced for every encounter. I mean, in your OP you were claiming range to be meta. Would that be considered balanced? It's wrong to assume that things are not balanced just because something else is optimal.

    What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced.

    Then it's a matter of preference regarding what's unbalanced. You find ranged being preferred over melee perfectly okay but dislike how certain classes may be more preferred in optimal situations. In both situations a group of players are being preferred but in only one of them you are negatively affected. Meta, or optimal, comps are not the only way that something can be done. This has been repeated over and over since the game launched. You can easily complete every DRM CM with all DPS players assuming that they can do actual DPS and not completely fail mechanics. Every class is capable of doing enough DPS.

    You've massively misinterpreted what I've said, not sure if a conversation is even valuable anymore. I gave an example where ranged isn't meta and clearly said I'm fine with metas changing between encounters, it's when something features over and over there's a problem. Also note, you're talking about playstyle metas, I'm talking about profession metas. Also note guardian isn't meta just because of DPS, it's the defensive capabilities that make it so preferred. It has those AND damage. PROFESSION balance is what I started talking about. If you keep going off about ranged, you're missing the point entirely.

    I'm not misinterpreting anything. I simply highlighted a contradictory/hypocritical part of your post where you were fine with ranged being meta over melee but took issue with a certain build being meta over others.

    You absolutely are:

    " What meta doesn't feature guard? I'm fine with something being meta in certain encounters, for example I'm sure melee is meta in the original CMs for DRMs, it's just guard is heavily features in almost any meta. I can't think of an encounter where you wouldn't want a guard, but you can't say the same thing for every class. That, to me, is a heavy indicator that professions are not well balanced. "

    I never said I wanted range in every scenario. And again, you're focused on playstyle when I started talking about professions.

    This entire thread was started about two SPECIFIC DRMs. I never claimed range was meta for everything.

    Range is not meta for anything, its a lot easier then melee but that dont make it meta in any way shape or form.
    Thunder head peak you have to be melee range to kill eggs you cant range them.

    I think this has already been covered (i haven't argued back with anyone above who agrees with you), i was just calling them out on them misrepresenting what I was saying and completely sidestepping the issue that is guardian is basically the top profession right now.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's not. Melee is still the higher DPS option and most groups seem to need as much DPS as they can get. I also feel that everyone should just go full DPS because most of the people I see that do go DPS are doing less than 10K which won't be enough if there are support players. I see too many people trying to get a balanced party but that only works if your DPS can actually DPS.

    In my experience it may be meta for the same reason you say having everyone DPS is meta, most people struggle with the intensity of mechanics in melee. I think it's pretty telling the group that died more was also the one we barely failed on.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, you're probably absolutely right that well-played melee is better.

    The issue is that ranged attacks are lower DPS and it’s low DPS that is causing people to fail. Having players all go range is just setting them up to fail even more.

    There’s really no reason to fail mechanics. The Thunderhead boss is pretty much the matriarch wyvern. The FoR boss players just have to get out away from the boss when it does the telegraph for the one attack. It’s not like it’s a raid which is throwing many mechanics at you at once.

    Umm so what about those burn pulses the FoR boss stands in for many seconds at a time? I know for a fact that I was not even hitting my power GS dps from arc when i decided to power chrono. Admittedly I did die, but even before I did, I noticed those DPS numbers dropping lower. Pretty sure I know power Chrono decently well. I'm not a top SC player by any means but can get higher than 20k on a golem, which imo is acceptable and I haven't gotten yelled at when i have in my trainings.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Meta is 4cfb + ren. You dont need healing when you can aegis everything. Ren can provide superspeed for the escort aswell.

    So Aegis blocks the pulsing AOE fire damage he stands in after he does his AOE attack? Is this the passive aegis from the virtue or a different ability? I'm not super familiar with guardian, so please forgive my noobishness.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's not. Melee is still the higher DPS option and most groups seem to need as much DPS as they can get. I also feel that everyone should just go full DPS because most of the people I see that do go DPS are doing less than 10K which won't be enough if there are support players. I see too many people trying to get a balanced party but that only works if your DPS can actually DPS.

    In my experience it may be meta for the same reason you say having everyone DPS is meta, most people struggle with the intensity of mechanics in melee. I think it's pretty telling the group that died more was also the one we barely failed on.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, you're probably absolutely right that well-played melee is better.

    The issue is that ranged attacks are lower DPS and it’s low DPS that is causing people to fail. Having players all go range is just setting them up to fail even more.

    There’s really no reason to fail mechanics. The Thunderhead boss is pretty much the matriarch wyvern. The FoR boss players just have to get out away from the boss when it does the telegraph for the one attack. It’s not like it’s a raid which is throwing many mechanics at you at once.

    Umm so what about those burn pulses the FoR boss stands in for many seconds at a time? I know for a fact that I was not even hitting my power GS dps from arc when i decided to power chrono. Admittedly I did die, but even before I did, I noticed those DPS numbers dropping lower.

    You obviously use a ranged weapon and/or wait for the boss to be pulled. You don’t just camp your ranged weapon the entire time.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's not. Melee is still the higher DPS option and most groups seem to need as much DPS as they can get. I also feel that everyone should just go full DPS because most of the people I see that do go DPS are doing less than 10K which won't be enough if there are support players. I see too many people trying to get a balanced party but that only works if your DPS can actually DPS.

    In my experience it may be meta for the same reason you say having everyone DPS is meta, most people struggle with the intensity of mechanics in melee. I think it's pretty telling the group that died more was also the one we barely failed on.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, you're probably absolutely right that well-played melee is better.

    The issue is that ranged attacks are lower DPS and it’s low DPS that is causing people to fail. Having players all go range is just setting them up to fail even more.

    There’s really no reason to fail mechanics. The Thunderhead boss is pretty much the matriarch wyvern. The FoR boss players just have to get out away from the boss when it does the telegraph for the one attack. It’s not like it’s a raid which is throwing many mechanics at you at once.

    Umm so what about those burn pulses the FoR boss stands in for many seconds at a time? I know for a fact that I was not even hitting my power GS dps from arc when i decided to power chrono. Admittedly I did die, but even before I did, I noticed those DPS numbers dropping lower.

    You obviously use a ranged weapon and/or wait for the boss to be pulled. You don’t just camp your ranged weapon the entire time.

    But everyone here just told me melee was still meta? No one mentioned this, not even once.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's not. Melee is still the higher DPS option and most groups seem to need as much DPS as they can get. I also feel that everyone should just go full DPS because most of the people I see that do go DPS are doing less than 10K which won't be enough if there are support players. I see too many people trying to get a balanced party but that only works if your DPS can actually DPS.

    In my experience it may be meta for the same reason you say having everyone DPS is meta, most people struggle with the intensity of mechanics in melee. I think it's pretty telling the group that died more was also the one we barely failed on.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, you're probably absolutely right that well-played melee is better.

    The issue is that ranged attacks are lower DPS and it’s low DPS that is causing people to fail. Having players all go range is just setting them up to fail even more.

    There’s really no reason to fail mechanics. The Thunderhead boss is pretty much the matriarch wyvern. The FoR boss players just have to get out away from the boss when it does the telegraph for the one attack. It’s not like it’s a raid which is throwing many mechanics at you at once.

    Umm so what about those burn pulses the FoR boss stands in for many seconds at a time? I know for a fact that I was not even hitting my power GS dps from arc when i decided to power chrono. Admittedly I did die, but even before I did, I noticed those DPS numbers dropping lower.

    You obviously use a ranged weapon and/or wait for the boss to be pulled. You don’t just camp your ranged weapon the entire time.

    But everyone here just told me melee was still meta? No one mentioned this, not even once.

    Nobody is telling you not to use a ranged weapon at all. There are situations where you do can swap to a ranged weapon in many fights but melee should always be priority.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's not. Melee is still the higher DPS option and most groups seem to need as much DPS as they can get. I also feel that everyone should just go full DPS because most of the people I see that do go DPS are doing less than 10K which won't be enough if there are support players. I see too many people trying to get a balanced party but that only works if your DPS can actually DPS.

    In my experience it may be meta for the same reason you say having everyone DPS is meta, most people struggle with the intensity of mechanics in melee. I think it's pretty telling the group that died more was also the one we barely failed on.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, you're probably absolutely right that well-played melee is better.

    The issue is that ranged attacks are lower DPS and it’s low DPS that is causing people to fail. Having players all go range is just setting them up to fail even more.

    There’s really no reason to fail mechanics. The Thunderhead boss is pretty much the matriarch wyvern. The FoR boss players just have to get out away from the boss when it does the telegraph for the one attack. It’s not like it’s a raid which is throwing many mechanics at you at once.

    Umm so what about those burn pulses the FoR boss stands in for many seconds at a time? I know for a fact that I was not even hitting my power GS dps from arc when i decided to power chrono. Admittedly I did die, but even before I did, I noticed those DPS numbers dropping lower.

    You obviously use a ranged weapon and/or wait for the boss to be pulled. You don’t just camp your ranged weapon the entire time.

    But everyone here just told me melee was still meta? No one mentioned this, not even once.

    Nobody is telling you not to use a ranged weapon at all. There are situations where you do can swap to a ranged weapon in many fights but melee should always be priority.

    I don't interpret the dissent on this thread the same way as you, but sure, whatever.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I think this has already been covered (i haven't argued back with anyone above who agrees with you), i was just calling them out on them misrepresenting what I was saying and completely sidestepping the issue that is guardian is basically the top profession right now.

    And in what context would guardian be the top profession currently? General PvE? Specifically DRMs? There are plenty of raid encounters which favor stacking mesmer, either as chronomancer or as mirage. Strike missions tend to give power soulbeast the greatest boost, thanks to the implementation of the SAK. With the exception of 100CM fractals promote power DPS and guardian is not the first choice for power DPS right now.
    The guardian might currently be the best profession when it comes to sacrificing maximum performance for ease of use and versatility, though that does not seem to be what you are talking about.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Umm so what about those burn pulses the FoR boss stands in for many seconds at a time? I know for a fact that I was not even hitting my power GS dps from arc when i decided to power chrono. Admittedly I did die, but even before I did, I noticed those DPS numbers dropping lower. Pretty sure I know power Chrono decently well. I'm not a top SC player by any means but can get higher than 20k on a golem, which imo is acceptable and I haven't gotten yelled at when i have in my trainings.

    As of right now snowcrows is rating the average for the power chrono benchmark at 42.500 DPS, if you can produce slightly more than 20.000 DPS on the golem you would be roughly at 50% mastery of the build. Which leads me to believe that your own estimation for your expertise of the power chronomancer is likely the result of overconfidence bias.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Katary.7096 said:
    As of right now snowcrows is rating the average for the power chrono benchmark at 42.500 DPS, if you can produce slightly more than 20.000 DPS on the golem you would be roughly at 50% mastery of the build. Which leads me to believe that your own estimation for your expertise of the power chronomancer is likely the result of overconfidence bias.

    And you think I'd magically be better with an inferior weapon? The player isn't changing between the weapon type. The whole point of this was a comparison between ranged vs. melee. But I love that not following the conversation you're getting tons of likes for dragging me through the mud. That's such constructive conversation. Which is hilarious because everyone here is acting so arrogant about these encounters, but their advice doesn't even match the CM mechanics, there's a hell of a lot more than "just dodge" which has been featured at least twice as the solution to running melee. Decent =/= master. You're twisting my words to embarass me. 20k+ is acceptable DPS in many raid encounters. I'm saying I can pull my weight as a raider, not that I'm super proficient. It's crazy I have to spell this kitten out for you guys, like you can't math the average DPS on a boss and see that'd work. Which both of these things in context are hilarious. It's obvious the skill level of some of the snobs here is non-existent if they can't intelligently explain how they're dealing with mechanics, but I'm open about my skill level and get mocked and a "like" pileup on it when it's entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

    On a somewhat unrelated note, I'm seeing lots of complaints about the difficulty on these, even from more seasoned people than me in my guild's discord (that actually raid and try to hit the benchmarks).

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I think this has already been covered (i haven't argued back with anyone above who agrees with you), i was just calling them out on them misrepresenting what I was saying and completely sidestepping the issue that is guardian is basically the top profession right now.

    And in what context would guardian be the top profession currently? General PvE? Specifically DRMs? There are plenty of raid encounters which favor stacking mesmer, either as chronomancer or as mirage. Strike missions tend to give power soulbeast the greatest boost, thanks to the implementation of the SAK. With the exception of 100CM fractals promote power DPS and guardian is not the first choice for power DPS right now.
    The guardian might currently be the best profession when it comes to sacrificing maximum performance for ease of use and versatility, though that does not seem to be what you are talking about.

    Guardians are meta for providing quickness in almost any raid encounter, they're meta in fractals, they're meta in DRMs, they're a top class in PVP and WvW.

    And you know what? I'd like to see other DPS classes similarly buffed (or provide utility that bringing another chrono isn't worth it), I agree, stacking chronos shouldn't be a thing.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Which is hilarious because everyone here is acting so arrogant about these encounters, but their advice doesn't even match the CM mechanics, there's a hell of a lot more than "just dodge" which has been featured at least twice as the solution to running melee.

    ~ Field of Ruin ~

    • At every 20% the boss phases and you'll need to stand in the large green circle in the middle before the attack goes off. I believe the location of the circle is the same for each phase so it's easy to predict where you need to go although you're given plenty of time assuming you don't get chain CC'd by the shock waves and then downed.
    • Jump over or dodge through the shock waves. You can also put your back against something, such as the statue, to limit how much you're knocked around.
    • When you see him lift his arm, and a pulsing animation on the ground in front of him, get away from the boss. Be prepared to either jump or dodge the shock wave but stay away from the boss. Here is where you'd use range attacks until the boss leaves the fire AoE on the ground.
    • Avoid the large conic attack as this will pull you into the boss and most likely the fire AoE field. Either walk or dodge out of it.

    ~ Thunderhead Peaks ~

    • Dodge through or jump over the shock waves.
    • Destroy the eggs left by the boss after it dashes so that elite destroyers don't spawn.
    • Destroy the lava mounds/fissures to reduce the lava elemental spawns.
    • Use CC on the break bar to prevent the massive attack that will likely down everyone.
    • Don't stand in fire.

    ~ Snowden ~

    • Boon strip the boss. There are sigils that can do this if your class doesn't have access to boon removal/corruption.
    • Avoid the AoE ice circle attacks. Three circles always spawn on three sides of the boss with the fourth side always safe. Just stand there.
    • Dodge the expanding large circle attack that occurs immediately after the AoE ice circles attack.
    • Dodge out of the cone attack.
    • CC the boss.

    ~ Lake Doric ~

    • CC the boss
    • Have condition removal to counteract chill
    • Dodge the circle attacks that spawn under each players feet

    Decent =/= master. You're twisting my words to embarass me. 20k+ is acceptable DPS in many raid encounters. I'm saying I can pull my weight as a raider, not that I'm super proficient. It's crazy I have to spell this kitten out for you guys, like you can't math the average DPS on a boss and see that'd work. Which both of these things in context are hilarious. It's obvious the skill level of some of the snobs here is non-existent if they can't intelligently explain how they're dealing with mechanics, but I'm open about my skill level and get mocked and a "like" pileup on it when it's entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

    20k on a golem doesn't translate to 20k when fighting an actual boss. More skilled players can come close to that on certain bosses but you almost always will not DPS a boss as much as you would a golem. So you say that you can do 20K on a golem but with mechanics taken into account, it'll be much lower. How much DPS do you do on the FoR and Snowden bosses with power Chrono?

    On a somewhat unrelated note, I'm seeing lots of complaints about the difficulty on these, even from more seasoned people than me in my guild's discord (that actually raid and try to hit the benchmarks).

    It's probably more likely due to the difficulty of completing them with pugs than difficulty with the encounters themselves. Anyone who raids regularly is more than capable of doing the mechanics presented in the DRM CMs.

    The primary reason that players fail the CMs is because of very poor DPS. This is due to a combination of them doing very poor damage with their build in general (e.g. auto attacks/mashing skills with defensive gear) and failing mechanics.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's probably more likely due to the difficulty of completing them with pugs than difficulty with the encounters themselves. Anyone who raids regularly is more than capable of doing the mechanics presented in the DRM CMs.

    This particular group of people was a guild group. When i've done training runs with these guys their DPS has usually been on-spot.

    Also, my other comments still stand, I would do just as poorly on ranged as I would melee if I'm a bad player, so there is use for ranged on this fight. You also still don't mention swapping to range while he's standing in the left over AOE puddle when you talked about that being a given before, the conversation had gone far past instructional at this point, I was just calling out previous posts for how toxic they were.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's probably more likely due to the difficulty of completing them with pugs than difficulty with the encounters themselves. Anyone who raids regularly is more than capable of doing the mechanics presented in the DRM CMs.

    This particular group of people was a guild group. When i've done training runs with these guys their DPS has usually been on-spot.

    Also, my other comments still stand, I would do just as poorly on ranged as I would melee if I'm a bad player, so there is use for ranged on this fight. You also still don't mention swapping to range while he's standing in the left over AOE puddle when you talked about that being a given before, the conversation had gone far past instructional at this point, I was just calling out previous posts for how toxic they were.

    That was because you were calling for ranged attacks to be primarily used since you’re calling it the meta or think it is. The argument was over that and not about using ranged attacks when applicable.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's probably more likely due to the difficulty of completing them with pugs than difficulty with the encounters themselves. Anyone who raids regularly is more than capable of doing the mechanics presented in the DRM CMs.

    This particular group of people was a guild group. When i've done training runs with these guys their DPS has usually been on-spot.

    Also, my other comments still stand, I would do just as poorly on ranged as I would melee if I'm a bad player, so there is use for ranged on this fight. You also still don't mention swapping to range while he's standing in the left over AOE puddle when you talked about that being a given before, the conversation had gone far past instructional at this point, I was just calling out previous posts for how toxic they were.

    That was because you were calling for ranged attacks to be primarily used since you’re calling it the meta or think it is. The argument was over that and not about using ranged attacks when applicable.

    Well that argument's been done for a while because I haven't fought back with anyone who disagreed with me. That's been posted multiple times since start.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And you think I'd magically be better with an inferior weapon? The player isn't changing between the weapon type. The whole point of this was a comparison between ranged vs. melee. But I love that not following the conversation you're getting tons of likes for dragging me through the mud. That's such constructive conversation. Which is hilarious because everyone here is acting so arrogant about these encounters, but their advice doesn't even match the CM mechanics, there's a hell of a lot more than "just dodge" which has been featured at least twice as the solution to running melee. Decent =/= master. You're twisting my words to embarass me. 20k+ is acceptable DPS in many raid encounters. I'm saying I can pull my weight as a raider, not that I'm super proficient. It's crazy I have to spell this kitten out for you guys, like you can't math the average DPS on a boss and see that'd work. Which both of these things in context are hilarious. It's obvious the skill level of some of the snobs here is non-existent if they can't intelligently explain how they're dealing with mechanics, but I'm open about my skill level and get mocked and a "like" pileup on it when it's entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

    I know that I can't convince you that I am being honest, but I will post it anyway: You are reading quite a bit into my post which I didn't intend to say. I simply noticed that you consider yourself to "know power Chrono decently well" (which was a point you made in support of one of your arguments) while also hitting just over 50% on golem benchmarks. And this might just be my subjective interpretation of "decently well", but it doesn't seem to fit with what you reported as your performance. My suggestion, in it's entirety, is merely that your advice that "more people need to be running as close to pure ranged DPS as possible" should be taken with a grain of salt, given the fact that there objectively are elements in this game which you clearly haven't mastered yet.

    But since you ended up raising a few points I will adress them: No, I dont think anyone would magically get better at anything. Sometimes a player gets better performance out of an objectively weaker build, because the best build overwhelms them mechanically, which build they end up playing is up to them.
    In regards to ranged vs melee: You go melee as long as the encounter's mechanics allow and switch to ranged when melee is not an option. I consider that approach to be functional in all the DRMs. If a player can't make melee combat work then they can either practice or try exclusively ranged combat.
    Perhaps the people who agreed with my post did so because of what I stated about guardian not being the top profession? (Additionally: Two counts of "Thumps Up" and zero counts of "Helpful" is not an accurate example of "tons of likes".)
    I didn't say that you aren't pulling your weight or that you can't clear raid encounters.
    Some players rate the performance of DPS based on "is it enough to kill the boss?" and some players rate DPS based on "how close is it to the maximum amount?".
    The people who don't struggle with the content might very well be capable of explaining how they do it, they simply choose to not do it. But I understand why you would prefer that they can't.
    For the builds which I am currently playing I can benchmark 80% to 85% of the snowcrows value, depening on the build. And if someone who manages 95% decides to mock me for my lack of performance, they are free to do so.

    On a somewhat unrelated note, I'm seeing lots of complaints about the difficulty on these, even from more seasoned people than me in my guild's discord (that actually raid and try to hit the benchmarks).

    I have come across a number of complaints as well. One of them claimed that Snowden Drifts DRM was impossible to do on 3/3 CM even for players that usually clear raid content. Personally I failed that one twice before I managed to get it on my third attempt, which means that it was easier for me than Sunqua Peak CM. Long story short: I think that a lot of players slip into hyperbole when providing feedback for new content, especially when that feedback is provided on release day after playing the new content once.

    Guardians are meta for providing quickness in almost any raid encounter, they're meta in fractals, they're meta in DRMs, they're a top class in PVP and WvW.

    I didn't consider sPvP and WvW since this is a thread about DRMs on the "Fractals/ Dungeons/ Strike Missions/ Raids" subforum, but I am going to agree that guardian is a top profession in general. Furthermore I agree that Firebrand tends to the best choice when you are looking for a build to buff group quickness. I will still disagree that "guardian is basically the top profession right now", as calling it the top profession means that it is the single profession to stand at the top and that is simply not the case.

    And you know what? I'd like to see other DPS classes similarly buffed (or provide utility that bringing another chrono isn't worth it), I agree, stacking chronos shouldn't be a thing.

    Personally I would prefer to see the outliers at the top come down, as opposed to buffing everything else up. And if stacking a squad with a single build is optimal for one or maybe two encounters I am fine with that, I just don't want to see that be the general compostion for most of the PvE content.

  • The META is just to SOLO RUN THE DRM CM :)

  • Dixa.6017Dixa.6017 Member ✭✭

    these meta discussions are as they are in a game that tried to eschew the holy trinity AND add content that typically requires the holy trinity.
    now your only way to beat things is to burn it as fast as you can to ignore as many mechanics as you can.

    this is a balance issue that this game will never be able to fix unless it decides to move towards an actual holy trinity.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dixa.6017 said:
    these meta discussions are as they are in a game that tried to eschew the holy trinity AND add content that typically requires the holy trinity.
    now your only way to beat things is to burn it as fast as you can to ignore as many mechanics as you can.

    this is a balance issue that this game will never be able to fix unless it decides to move towards an actual holy trinity.

    Since drms dont have a time limit in what way do you need to burn things as fast as you can to complete it?

  • Dixa.6017Dixa.6017 Member ✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dixa.6017 said:
    these meta discussions are as they are in a game that tried to eschew the holy trinity AND add content that typically requires the holy trinity.
    now your only way to beat things is to burn it as fast as you can to ignore as many mechanics as you can.

    this is a balance issue that this game will never be able to fix unless it decides to move towards an actual holy trinity.

    Since drms dont have a time limit in what way do you need to burn things as fast as you can to complete it?

    the way people talk around here, everything.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dixa.6017 said:
    these meta discussions are as they are in a game that tried to eschew the holy trinity AND add content that typically requires the holy trinity.
    now your only way to beat things is to burn it as fast as you can to ignore as many mechanics as you can.

    this is a balance issue that this game will never be able to fix unless it decides to move towards an actual holy trinity.

    Tanks don't work in DRM's as you cannot control who gets aggro. Healers are helpful but won't matter if people constantly fail mechanics. So no, the "holy trinity" doesn't exist in DRMs. If you do decent DPS, do the mechanics, and have some sustain then you're more than capable of doing them.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dixa.6017 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dixa.6017 said:
    these meta discussions are as they are in a game that tried to eschew the holy trinity AND add content that typically requires the holy trinity.
    now your only way to beat things is to burn it as fast as you can to ignore as many mechanics as you can.

    this is a balance issue that this game will never be able to fix unless it decides to move towards an actual holy trinity.

    Since drms dont have a time limit in what way do you need to burn things as fast as you can to complete it?

    the way people talk around here, everything.

    Yea thats how some people like to play but dont stop other people from playing diffrently.
    Its when they try to mix the groups kitten hits the fan