The real problem with the raiding and fractal community. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
edited December 6 in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids


Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

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Comments

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    THIS SO MUCH........ And hardly any of these threads are constructive in any way.... It's absolute nonsense.read these threads and the things they complain about. It's hardly constructive, and always close minded, one sided and completely disconnected from any of the actual problems in the game..

    It's disheartening to come in here and see this crap all the time...these people making this wild complaints are doing more to hurt the raiding community then anyone else =/

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

    No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

    Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

    All these people ARE like minded, that's why they're all content with making ridiculous complaints rather then playing the content...

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    This happens every time there is a new fractal or raid released.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

    No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

    Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

    All these people ARE like minded, that's why they're all content with making ridiculous complaints rather then playing the content...

    Good point.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:
    Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

    Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise, still don't like raids.
    Who would have thought?

    Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

    At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @LordOtto.2650 said:
    Would you shut up?! I cleared from week one w5 b1 b2 b3, I even carried ppl, I did cm boss 1! I won't carry anyone on DHuum, I won't PUG it! Ever! I won't promote floating kitten, that you can't even control, it's not fun, all the effort to kill Dhuum is behind that mechanic! It's sickening! Next time read something, before you post! Ok, you wise man?!

    You can control the orb just fine. It's not even a hard mechanic... It's a linear orb grabbing mechanic, same as kc. It's honestly easy, the hardest part of it is getting to your green circle Everytime, with the soulsplit/ other mechanics. When your up there though, all you do is run into some orbs, couldn't be easier. Idk why you're complaining so heavily about this, but not xeras gliding phase, sabetha cannons, sloth mushrooms, or any other mechanic that has people who have to know a mechanic required to progress the fight

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    Many of us are actually out there playing the content, even if at a slower pace than those more comfortable with static groups. I don't see how it's a problem to complain when Anet themselves recognize the 10-people format makes it somewhat harder to find groups. Also, if you're from EU servers take into consideration that the EU pug raiding scene is much more active (to the point that US, at times, has literally NOTHING on LFG, not even guild recruits and sellings), and EU peak hours are the best for raiding. Kitten, who knows if these people are not complaining WHILE they are waiting for their pugs to fill (I certainly do while waiting for fractals when I play out of reset hour).

    I also don't see how it's a problem that the forums contain more complaints than anything. People will always be more vocal when they are unsatisfied, for the ones happily raiding are busy inside the game like you put it yourself.

    It should also be considered that GW2 has little to offer in the way of guild oriented content (no GvG, guild missions getting the dungeon treatment, guild halls prohibitively expensive for tight-knit communities), and so it does look like a break from tradition when raids are released that push for guilds to group up and practice rotations. When elite zones were released in GW1 it was established that 99% of the content (including the main story that was the bread and butter of that game) was better enjoyed and easier to accomplish by being inside a guild, whereas in here we can't even access personal bank and proper merchants from our halls. Complaint about the pug availability and quality are to be expected, even if they are unwarranted; after all, the Raid team is indeed Anet's A-Team.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    Many of us are actually out there playing the content, even if at a slower pace than those more comfortable with static groups. I don't see how it's a problem to complain when Anet themselves recognize the 10-people format makes it somewhat harder to find groups. Also, if you're from EU servers take into consideration that the EU pug raiding scene is much more active (to the point that US, at times, has literally NOTHING on LFG, not even guild recruits and sellings), and EU peak hours are the best for raiding. Kitten, who knows if these people are not complaining WHILE they are waiting for their pugs to fill (I certainly do while waiting for fractals when I play out of reset hour).

    I also don't see how it's a problem that the forums contain more complaints than anything. People will always be more vocal when they are unsatisfied, for the ones happily raiding are busy inside the game like you put it yourself.

    It should also be considered that GW2 has little to offer in the way of guild oriented content (no GvG, guild missions getting the dungeon treatment, guild halls prohibitively expensive for tight-knit communities), and so it does look like a break from tradition when raids are released that push for guilds to group up and practice rotations. When elite zones were released in GW1 it was established that 99% of the content (including the main story that was the bread and butter of that game) was better enjoyed and easier to accomplish by being inside a guild, whereas in here we can't even access personal bank and proper merchants from our halls. Complaint about the pug availability and quality are to be expected, even if they are unwarranted; after all, the Raid team is indeed Anet's A-Team.

    There's a big difference between the issues you bring up and the General complaints on the forums.. seriously. You bring up the lack of guild content that benefits from raiding, and the problems with lfg, these are real issues absolutely and constructive feedback on these issues is always welcome

    But what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭

    How many posts could you make from complaints about complainers?

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭

    I guess us who want our gameplay to involve skill do not deserve to have any hard content. Tier 4 fractals SHOULD be the hard 5 man content and still people are kitten.

    What I find the funniest is that these people complain about t4 fractals and people telling them to do the lower tier ones but at the same time these people request easy modes for raids. Let's face it, if we get easy/normal/hard modes for raids then people are going to complain how they dont qualify for the hard mode and it has to be nerfed. If you want raids in different difficulties, then maybe adjust to the fractal difficulties first.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    But what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.

    Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

    Pointing out an issue is what it is. Consider this a kitten for all i care. As thats all i ever do anyway.

    I thinks its more constructive to point a reoccuring issue out that no one is addressing that can actually be fixed, rather than a problem that is personal and is of no one's concern but the OP's. I care more about the people who come to this thread to learn, and see nothing but whiners, and have nothing but whiners telling them how horrible raiding/fractals are, because of some conceded notion they have to virtue signal how much 'better' they are socially than the rest of us. Despite the fact they post nothing but social issues that they are personally having.

    It's like the people who cry about things like sexism, and mysoggyknees, but forget to mention the fact they see it in everything, much like the people who complain about elitism. It's paranoia and fear mongering in its simplest form.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭

    8 threads, not even full squad :)

  • LordOtto.2650LordOtto.2650 Member ✭✭
    edited December 6

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @LordOtto.2650 said:
    Would you shut up?! I cleared from week one w5 b1 b2 b3, I even carried ppl, I did cm boss 1! I won't carry anyone on DHuum, I won't PUG it! Ever! I won't promote floating kitten, that you can't even control, it's not fun, all the effort to kill Dhuum is behind that mechanic! It's sickening! Next time read something, before you post! Ok, you wise man?!

    I did read your post. You were complaining about the commander rather than the fact the orb mechanic has crappy controls. Either way. What is making a thread whining about it going to solve?

    It would be more constructive to make a thread targeted at feedback on the orb mechanic. But your thread wasn't that.

    No you didn't read it! You red the first 2-3 phrase max.! Now read all, then make an argument! But I just think your comprehension stays there were is now...

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    But what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.

    Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

    The OP might not be diplomatic, but that doesn't mean the question isn't legitimate.

    According to raid and fractal critics, there are tons and tons of people who think that there's a problem in difficulty. The OP asks: well, if there are so many, why aren't they grouping together, to avoid the so-called meta-toxic alliance? It's especially fair to ask since more than a few of these critics have stated plainly that they don't even try to form such groups.

    Just as it's not obvious to the complainants how to succeed at raids, it's not obvious to the OP why some do not succeed.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which [people] ...mistakenly [estimate] their ability ... [and] highly skilled individuals ...underestimate their relative competence and ...erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.

    This can be translated as:

    • People who know how to do something will have trouble understanding why others can't easily do the same thing.
    • People who don't already know how to do that thing have trouble understanding why it's even important.

    “Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.” — Ambrose Bierce.

  • LordOtto.2650LordOtto.2650 Member ✭✭

    And people like me ask why is a floating orb, that you can't control, has to do something with gw2, and be the most important mechanic of a Raid boss?! We can argue how much we want, that is not skill, nothing related to gw2 skill, and never will be!
    How many of you did PUG Dhuum, please do tell?! And after 2-3 months please do tell again! I want to see the people who do green mech too, and how many PUG raid squads did they carry!

    Stop bumbling on a topic, what you don't understand! I told you, read before you write something down, you just liketo argue, don't you?!

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    But what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.

    Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

    The OP might not be diplomatic, but that doesn't mean the question isn't legitimate.

    According to raid and fractal critics, there are tons and tons of people who think that there's a problem in difficulty. The OP asks: well, if there are so many, why aren't they grouping together, to avoid the so-called meta-toxic alliance? It's especially fair to ask since more than a few of these critics have stated plainly that they don't even try to form such groups.

    Just as it's not obvious to the complainants how to succeed at raids, it's not obvious to the OP why some do not succeed.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which [people] ...mistakenly [estimate] their ability ... > [and] highly skilled individuals ...underestimate their relative competence and ...erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.

    This can be translated as:

    • People who know how to do something will have trouble understanding why others can't easily do the same thing.
    • People who don't already know how to do that thing have trouble understanding why it's even important.

    On the contrary, I believe the biggest problem of raiding is its organised nature and artificial push of 10-man grouping. The latter is biggest issue here as it's not only a problem of organising 10 "casuals" to find time together for few hours to progress raiding but also it brought a lot of problems from technical point of view.

    First thing - grouping. OP is accusing casuals of not willing to find a team. I can only speak for myself here but many will share this view - we are not teenagers anymore. It is sometimes hard to find 2 hours in a busy week to meet with our lifetime friends and you expect us to find time for 8 more people as busy as we are? It's not impossible, but it's also not as trivial as for teenagers whose only problems in life are attracting people at school and farming in GW2.

    About 10 man raiding - the game is balanced and coded for 5 man groups since the beginning of time. Raiding caused a mess in case of balancing. They wanted to avoid creating 1 supercomp but this is what GW2 is in a nutshell. There will always be supergroup and there will always be professions excluded from the raid.

    If raids were 5-man content, everything would be easier from both technical and social perspective.

    Now about OP. Your thread doesn't follow the rules of providing good feedback and hopefully will disappear soon. For every thread you mock up here there are always 5-7 raid heroes defending everything about raiding without any constructive reason or discussion. This section of forums is always following same scenario:

    1. a problem is presented
    2. "git gud"
    3. Paste qt build site
    4. Go play open world

    Raiding community is hurting itself. You are not inviting, you are not constructive. Most of you are hidden within your raiding guild circles patting each other backs every day. Discussing anything with you is impossible.

    One thing about raiding needs to be reminded to Anet - raiders in this game will never be happy. You created an atmosphere for them to exist here even though your game is not a place for them. You will be burning out your resources, passion and good will but a week or a month after raid release all you will hear from them is "raids are easy, git gud, when new win?".

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭

    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    As long as people point out what their negative feedback (as short and without solutions to their problems it might be) is about, enough of the feedback does show the designers that community considers there to be a problem that should be somehow solved or designers at least to take a stance on to understand if there will be changes incoming or not. It's a great bonus if the feedback also gives suggestions to solving the problem and without such suggestions it's up to designers to figure how to solve it.

    A good example of this is how devs clearly are aiming for build versatility these days, but they do lack feedback on what should be improved about non-meta weapon combos and classes due to there not existing numerical data about where those stand currently since people mainly test builds considered "meta" by some builds and either don't bother testing anything weaker than meta or don't publish their results 'cause "trash builds are trash", like a high-up of a certain metabible-guild has said.
    And thus their balancing is pretty much guesswork and either goes overboard or the changes are too little.
    And when someone actually tests and plays those builds with success, the buildtrashing peoples try to silence that person for whatever reason. Like it has happened to Kitty, the favourite meme of the great metabible-guild (and you've also been quite loud part about it, Kitty's noticed), when she's been benchmarking (though a bit flawed 'cause deeeerp) and posting videos playing those non-metabuilds (like power soulbeast and renegade, tank/heal scourge, healwarrior, heal-engi...) at endgame bosses. These complainers seem to almost exclusively belong to speedrun guilds and tbh, speedrunners are minority within a minority, though relatively very loud as such.

    And apparently you're starting the same "shut up and adjust" about these people who want some difficulty modifications to raids.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you

    True, but considering that players are also customers and keep the game alive by buying stuff from gem store and by playing it, they can always stop playing the game if they feel too discontent about it and if that starts happening in masses, game will be dead. Though feelings might not be cared about, the financial consequences derived from feelings better by addressed before they start seriously affecting the game. And while at it, GW2's devs actually play the game and want it to be as enjoyable as possible for both themselves and for customers. Wait, that means feelings are actually cared about?
    Also, endgame community has been indeed shouting "we need more challenging content or we quit 'cause we're soooo bored" (like metabible-guild did to some extent). Now they've been given perhaps the most challenging raid this far. Have they come back and how long will they stay? Besides, GW2 has always been mainly a game for casuals and Anet most likely wants to keep casuals playing the game since the masses of casuals bring the majority of their income. In that regard, raid community has actually been quite exclusive towards casuals, requiring either belonging to a raiding guild, a static group or having both playing raids for months and only using the metabible-approved metabuild with proper rotation or KICK. The casuals are also getting scared away from the raiding 'cause they're getting told "raid are very difficult and unless you're highly geared and very skilled at your class, you better stay out". Kitty agrees that the gears should be at least somewhat suitable for purpose and peoples should have the basic understanding on how to play their classes, but raids aren't really that challenging once you learn the mechanics. Like half of the bosses are easily doable as long as mechanics are properly paid attention to without any of the steep DPS checks that lots of people like to claim there is ('cause they like to deal with minimum mechanics possible. Which makes one question if they're not comfy with executing the mechanics?).
    What the wall of text above is about? Feelings of joy, boredom and scaredness. Believe or not but they do have quite an effect.

    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues

    But that also doesn't mean that experiences don't mean anything.

    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Very few businesses or games would survive if their devs and owners had the mindset of the sentence above. If the world was like that, it would be a way colder place than it already is.

    It's Kitty. The girl who benchmarks and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Youtube at youtube.com/kittysamart , benchmarks at kittymarks.com/kittymarks

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭

    Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

    (Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

    Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

    As long as people point out what their negative feedback (as short and without solutions to their problems it might be) is about, enough of the feedback does show the designers that community considers there to be a problem that should be somehow solved or designers at least to take a stance on to understand if there will be changes incoming or not. It's a great bonus if the feedback also gives suggestions to solving the problem and without such suggestions it's up to designers to figure how to solve it.

    A good example of this is how devs clearly are aiming for build versatility these days, but they do lack feedback on what should be improved about non-meta weapon combos and classes due to there not existing numerical data about where those stand currently since people mainly test builds considered "meta" by some builds and either don't bother testing anything weaker than meta or don't publish their results 'cause "trash builds are trash", like a high-up of a certain metabible-guild has said.
    And thus their balancing is pretty much guesswork and either goes overboard or the changes are too little.
    And when someone actually tests and plays those builds with success, the buildtrashing peoples try to silence that person for whatever reason. Like it has happened to Kitty, the favourite meme of the great metabible-guild (and you've also been quite loud part about it, Kitty's noticed), when she's been benchmarking (though a bit flawed 'cause deeeerp) and posting videos playing those non-metabuilds (like power soulbeast and renegade, tank/heal scourge, healwarrior, heal-engi...) at endgame bosses. These complainers seem to almost exclusively belong to speedrun guilds and tbh, speedrunners are minority within a minority, though relatively very loud as such.

    And apparently you're starting the same "shut up and adjust" about these people who want some difficulty modifications to raids.

    People need to understand,

    -Not every feeling they have is important
    -No one cares about your feelings BUT you

    True, but considering that players are also customers and keep the game alive by buying stuff from gem store and by playing it, they can always stop playing the game if they feel too discontent about it and if that starts happening in masses, game will be dead. Though feelings might not be cared about, the financial consequences derived from feelings better by addressed before they start seriously affecting the game. And while at it, GW2's devs actually play the game and want it to be as enjoyable as possible for both themselves and for customers. Wait, that means feelings are actually cared about?
    Also, endgame community has been indeed shouting "we need more challenging content or we quit 'cause we're soooo bored" (like metabible-guild did to some extent). Now they've been given perhaps the most challenging raid this far. Have they come back and how long will they stay? Besides, GW2 has always been mainly a game for casuals and Anet most likely wants to keep casuals playing the game since the masses of casuals bring the majority of their income. In that regard, raid community has actually been quite exclusive towards casuals, requiring either belonging to a raiding guild, a static group or having both playing raids for months and only using the metabible-approved metabuild with proper rotation or KICK. The casuals are also getting scared away from the raiding 'cause they're getting told "raid are very difficult and unless you're highly geared and very skilled at your class, you better stay out". Kitty agrees that the gears should be at least somewhat suitable for purpose and peoples should have the basic understanding on how to play their classes, but raids aren't really that challenging once you learn the mechanics. Like half of the bosses are easily doable as long as mechanics are properly paid attention to without any of the steep DPS checks that lots of people like to claim there is ('cause they like to deal with minimum mechanics possible. Which makes one question if they're not comfy with executing the mechanics?).
    What the wall of text above is about? Feelings of joy, boredom and scaredness. Believe or not but they do have quite an effect.

    -Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues

    But that also doesn't mean that experiences don't mean anything.

    -There are exceptions to just about every rule
    -9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
    +personality
    +play time
    +lack of experience
    + lack of personal skill
    +lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
    +expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

    There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

    Very few businesses or games would survive if their devs and owners had the mindset of the sentence above. If the world was like that, it would be a way colder place than it already is.

    That was the mindset that blizzard had when WOW game exploded. You know when WOW played like an mmo and had the sense of community and making friends. Instead of this "play together alone bs"

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    On the contrary, I believe the biggest problem of raiding is its organised nature and artificial push of 10-man grouping. The latter is biggest issue here as it's not only a problem of organising 10 "casuals" to find time together for few hours to progress raiding but also it brought a lot of problems from technical point of view.

    First thing - grouping. OP is accusing casuals of not willing to find a team. I can only speak for myself here but many will share this view - we are not teenagers anymore. It is sometimes hard to find 2 hours in a busy week to meet with our lifetime friends and you expect us to find time for 8 more people as busy as we are? It's not impossible, but it's also not as trivial as for teenagers whose only problems in life are attracting people at school and farming in GW2.

    About 10 man raiding - the game is balanced and coded for 5 man groups since the beginning of time. Raiding caused a mess in case of balancing. They wanted to avoid creating 1 supercomp but this is what GW2 is in a nutshell. There will always be supergroup and there will always be professions excluded from the raid.

    If raids were 5-man content, everything would be easier from both technical and social perspective.

    Now about OP. Your thread doesn't follow the rules of providing good feedback and hopefully will disappear soon. For every thread you mock up here there are always 5-7 raid heroes defending everything about raiding without any constructive reason or discussion. This section of forums is always following same scenario:

    1. a problem is presented
    2. "git gud"
    3. Paste qt build site
    4. Go play open world

    Raiding community is hurting itself. You are not inviting, you are not constructive. Most of you are hidden within your raiding guild circles patting each other backs every day. Discussing anything with you is impossible.

    One thing about raiding needs to be reminded to Anet - raiders in this game will never be happy. You created an atmosphere for them to exist here even though your game is not a place for them. You will be burning out your resources, passion and good will but a week or a month after raid release all you will hear from them is "raids are easy, git gud, when new win?".

    In fact that's one of the problem of having such a low man count for raids, not the opposite. Back in WoW's early days (I'm that old), Molten Core was a 40 player raid. Since it required such big groups, it had to be tuned specifically so that it was more a social endeavour (making sure everyone could make it and was ready) rather than a mechanical challenge and a hard check on how fast you could click your spells. It wasn't uncommon to have half of the 40 player count laying dead on the ground at the end of the encounter. I believe that if the player count in GW2 was 25 or more, raids would have to be more open to various types of player and be more of a social event, because well when you have to fill so many slots you can't be picky. Contrary to what most people imagine today, molten core and Naxxramas weren't really difficult per se, the real challenges were before (making sure everyone was attending) and after (the guild surviving the loot sharing drama) the raid, not inside.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    But what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.

    Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

    Let's not pretend that any of these threads are Constructive..... Let's not pretend like any of these threads provide actual feedback, confront actual issues, or give any genuine attempt to settle problems

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

    (Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

    This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

    (Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

    This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

    For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

    (Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

    This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

    Especially those players who harm the same game they are playing by spreading misinformation and hatred on other forms of media.
    Hell there was this guy (which hasn't posted in a while - thank god) who made a post on an unrelated website where you review companies, and wrote a "review" on Anet complaining about Raids of all things. Yes the community is the biggest problem. They will find all sorts of silly ways to complain, and what's more important is that they are a tiny minority that think they represent a majority.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

    (Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

    This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

    For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

    It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

    (Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

    This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

    For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

    It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

    It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

    P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

    (Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

    This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

    For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

    It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

    It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

    P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

    The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7

    Amusing to have the abundance of these threads pointed out like that. All though, I am not sure if this is a problem with our raiding community in particular since most of these OPs are not even part of said community. The majority of them simply complains about the fact that there is any content they do not like or are supposedly not able to do themselves. They complain how it requires any effort to do anything. A problem with the overall game community rather than any small part of it.

  • Omnicron.2467Omnicron.2467 Member ✭✭

    Looking at all those forum post titles is quite depressing. I understand somewhat, however. Yesterday Twilight Oasis was a recommended daily for T3, and I had already cleared it quite easily on T4 twice without wiping or training. Now I am in this T3 group with the title "Know mechanics or Kick", and I am like, ok sounds toxic but they are at last boss. After 5 wipes, and always being the last man standing I joined another group and cleared it without any problems. So some people genuinely stuggle, but I personally find the fracals very easy, even Shattered Observatory, unless they are on Challenge Mode.

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