The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

[Faaris.8013]

@"FrostDraco.8306" said:No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

My guess is lack of time, discipline and commitment. They expect to log in when they want and raid, like you can do with most other content. But while everything else is "free play", raids require organisation, like a team sport. Nobody questions that if you want to play, let's say, ice hockey, you cannot simply show up when you want and expect to join a team. Nobody questions that you have to show up at specific times for a specific period of time 3 times a week, and that you have to bring specific gear to join. But if that happens in an online game, some people get furious and scream elitism and exclusion. If you join an ice hockey club and show up with dance ice skates and a baseball bat and refuse to wear a helmet, nobody will play with you, no discussion. But that's exactly what some people do when it comes to raids, and if they are excluded, they scream elitism. I don't know in what kind of world they live, they probably have never done any team sport in their life and don't know the rules of this kind of social interaction. Sure, society treats sports differently. People can say they have to show up for training 3 times a week, but refuse to apply that to online gaming.

Btw, if you don't show up for training in sports or are constantly late, or take breaks all the time, you will not last. Social pressure from your peers will make you to either comply with the rules or leave. If you join a group, you need to earn the right to change the rules. If I had more experience in raids to initiate training runs I would set class and gear requirements for the group and require to not afk for the session and be on time. No LI or kill proof or other shit, but if you don't comply with the rules, it's a kick. You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Faaris.8013 said:You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change. You did.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change.

You

did.

But you're not expecting to win a trophy on a beer and snacks party, are you?

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change.

You

did.

You know T4s used to be a lot different on release and then really different every couple of months. It's not like they changed only now specifically.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change.

You

did.

But you're not expecting to win a trophy on a beer and snacks party, are you?No, but there are some uniquely flavoured snacks in the room those guys took over i'd really like to get to. Besides, they happen to be rather loud and that starts affecting other guests as well.

But to stop with those alegories, in general if you change the rules on people midgame, you can't blame them for not adapting. Or for not being too thrilled with the change.

@maddoctor.2738 said:You know T4s used to be a lot different on release and then really different every couple of months. It's not like they changed only now specifically.All the previous changes were done mostly in the opposite direction - to make fractals more appealing and accessible to a wider group of people.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:All the previous changes were done mostly in the opposite direction - to make fractals more appealing and accessible to a wider group of people.

I guess you weren't there when Fractured was released, the major fractals patch that gave us not only new fractals but instabilities too, which obviously made the content harder. Also, after 2 expansions full of power creep the challenge level of the original T4s wasn't good enough for the rewards anymore. Just like changes are made towards one direction, they can also happen towards the other one, if the intended challenge level drops below the expected one.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change.

You

did.

But you're not expecting to win a trophy on a beer and snacks party, are you?No, but there are some uniquely flavoured snacks in the room those guys took over i'd really like to get to. Besides, they happen to be rather loud and that starts affecting other guests as well.

But to stop with those alegories, in general if you change the rules on people midgame, you can't blame them for not adapting. Or for not being too thrilled with the change.

Rules change mid game out of necessity. We get new specializations, new stat sets, heck, even a new down-state skill. These are just as much of a rule change as a redesign of a specific fractal or adding a new one. They both affect the effort to reward balance, just in opposite ways. I don't see you complaining about changing the rules in your favor. And yes, I don't expect people to be thrilled, although the amount of complaining is absurd and unfounded. But I do expect them to adapt. And they eventually will, if complaining along the way. Some will move to other content, some will lower the difficulty as suggested and some might even improve their skills.

[FrostDraco.8306]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important-No one cares about your feelings BUT you-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues-There are exceptions to just about every rule-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,+personality+play time+lack of experience

• lack of personal skill+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

Just because of

some

, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

No. What I AM saying is,

"you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

[FrostDraco.8306]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:You might lack skill and experience, nothing you can do about it at this time, but there is no excuse for showing up with a baseball bat at a hockey session.Thee's also no excuse for taking over beer and snacks party and trying to turn it into a hockey season, and then being surprised that most of the people present show up to the party drunk and/or have no idea what's that hockey thing you're talking about. Those people didn't change.

You

did.

This is a very dishonest argument.

The proper analogy would be, a bar adding a VIP section, then the patrons of the bar getting upset at the VIPS for not wanting non-VIP in the VIP section, when they haven't paid, or been invited to be there. Or getting mad that the bar owners would DARE add a VIP section.

Your argument tries to insinuate that raids and fractals were for a casual audience to begin with, which is an outright lie. They were NEW sections added or adapted in the game, not older ones 'taken over' by non-casuals.

I don't understand how you ever came to that conclusion and didn't think it was a crappy argument.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important-No one cares about your feelings BUT you-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues-There are exceptions to just about every rule-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,+personality+play time+lack of experience

• lack of personal skill+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

Just because of

some

, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

No. What I AM saying is,

"you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

But, some of these people completed it then complain about it, do they still have personal deficiency?

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"FrostDraco.8306" said:Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

That's not a problem with the raiding community. That's a problem with the hyper-casual players that don't know what a Raid is.

There was one guy that approached me after i suggested that i do raids with a very noob group and we're still learning and welcome everyone to join us. So i invited him to guild and later we were discussing Raids, and i mentioned that there's a required DPS level for bosses. And he asked how can i tell DPS, and i told him about DPS meters and the Golem. Took him to the golem, we did a few runs at the golem, and we were talking about stuff like i usually run chrono and tank, when he asked if the boss would just stay in one place. He promptly said he didn't want to Raid any more, that it was too much like Magic the Gathering (as in very clinical and tactical), and left the guild.

So yeah, a lot of people expect that a Raid boss is kind of like a mini World boss or something that you can just wave at it until it dies, but that ignorance doesn't refrain them from harping about "elitism" and what not, while ignoring that Raids are the hardest content in the game, that even the "elites" need hours and hours for their first clears. It's not just something you can wave a stick at.And even the worse T4 fractal is nothing compared to a Raid boss. (I mean i did the new fractal in roughly an hour, and that was after scouring every corner for those wounded things, and waiting for a mate to join, and then figuring out the boss mechanics. All the while with a not very meta group. But the fastest raid clears still took them several hours to figure out, with the groups that "create" the meta).

So yeah, i see a lot of these complains, and what i see is people that want stuff handed to them.

[FrostDraco.8306]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important-No one cares about your feelings BUT you-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues-There are exceptions to just about every rule-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,+personality+play time+lack of experience

• lack of personal skill+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

Just because of

some

, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

No. What I AM saying is,

"you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

But, some of these people completed it then complain about it, do they still have personal deficiency?

Yes. Otherwise what reason is there to complain? Since they 'completed it anyway'.

Remember these are the same people arguing about elitism when they say content can 'be completed anyway'.

Seems awfully hypocritical.....unless, that's not what they want.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important-No one cares about your feelings BUT you-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues-There are exceptions to just about every rule-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,+personality+play time+lack of experience

• lack of personal skill+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

Just because of

some

, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

No. What I AM saying is,

"you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

But, some of these people completed it then complain about it, do they still have personal deficiency?

Yes. Otherwise what reason is there to complain? Since they 'completed it anyway'.

Remember these are the same people arguing about elitism when they say content can 'be completed anyway'.

Seems awfully hypocritical.....unless, that's not what they want.

Aw that's easy to explain. There's a lot of ways to BS your way into a raid, be non-participative and get the completion on the back of others. Then when you get caught, you get excluded, and complain about elitism.

[Tyson.5160]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important-No one cares about your feelings BUT you-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues-There are exceptions to just about every rule-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,+personality+play time+lack of experience

• lack of personal skill+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

Just because of

some

, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

No. What I AM saying is,

"you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

Uhhh, but now your making a thread yourself complaining about the complainers, and hence causing more of the problem. Which just adding more weight and noise to these arguments.

[Vayne.8563]

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise,

still

don't like raids.Who would have thought?

Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

[Rennie.6750]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise,

still

don't like raids.Who would have thought?

Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

Raids also have quite a lot of voice acting, they really went all-in on that feature, and the amount of useless stuff they worked on is probably one of the reasons they claim to have no budget for difficulty tiers.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"FrostDraco.8306" said:

Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

That's not a problem with the raiding community. That's a problem with the hyper-casual players that don't know what a Raid is.

There was one guy that approached me after i suggested that i do raids with a very noob group and we're still learning and welcome everyone to join us. So i invited him to guild and later we were discussing Raids, and i mentioned that there's a required DPS level for bosses. And he asked how can i tell DPS, and i told him about DPS meters and the Golem. Took him to the golem, we did a few runs at the golem, and we were talking about stuff like i usually run chrono and tank, when he asked if the boss would just stay in one place. He promptly said he didn't want to Raid any more, that it was too much like Magic the Gathering (as in very clinical and tactical), and left the guild.

So yeah, a lot of people expect that a Raid boss is kind of like a mini World boss or something that you can just wave at it until it dies, but that ignorance doesn't refrain them from harping about "elitism" and what not, while ignoring that Raids are the hardest content in the game, that even the "elites" need hours and hours for their first clears. It's not just something you can wave a stick at.And even the worse T4 fractal is nothing compared to a Raid boss. (I mean i did the new fractal in roughly an hour, and that was after scouring every corner for those wounded things, and waiting for a mate to join, and then figuring out the boss mechanics. All the while with a not very meta group. But the fastest raid clears still took them several hours to figure out, with the groups that "create" the meta).

So yeah, i see a lot of these complains, and what i see is people that want stuff handed to them.

First this game was promoted as relativ causal game and gw 1 was kinda the same way only even more .Gild Wars was a counter design to WoW (Everything they to wrong we do right). This included more content be solo playable.

What here is describe as "elitism" has its roots more in the game mechanic then most people thing. I know this because I have seen it in other MMOs too.What I mean with this are enrage timers which wipe the group when a certain DPS of the group has not been met.

First it is a huge bottleneck for classes and built which can't be part of it. This doesn't mean it must be impossible to run with the raid for a certain class/built(not all) but because it increase the chance of survival they won't run with them.

There is also a more nuanced situation with it for normal players it is survive fist damage second but because players need to make damage to survive its kinda flips over. I can't say this is a problem but it shows how such a mechanic generate a complete different kind of content.

Then there is the need for a dps meter GW2 has something special here because some other games provide add-on interfaces but in GW 2 it is more like tolerated because it is a 3d party app(which stand has Arena NET currently?), only we have now the Golem as alternative the point is more people start to look at this way too much and it dripping down into other content like the fractals with the LFG which is very toxic.

I personally won't join a LFG with XXk dps because of years of experience with this kind of players. It isn't so I don't know what they want but because I know it they don't want team players or being social but only rush through the content as fast as possible.

This increased then with finding new ways to skip event by exploits to shorten it , is it a intro in fractal 40 or complete raid boss in the new wing.

There are some funny side effects with which I personally witnessed basically some of them seems not to know the event from Subject-6 form the Thaumanova Reactor and the golem from Uncategorized because they burst it always away.

So when I would design something like this I would really avoid enrage timer so far as possible and make events unskipable.

[DeceiverX.8361]

From what I understand the majority of people who don't like it are people who just don't like the entire ideology of a fixed meta and forced builds and subsequently the "harder difficulty" which is really just mostly stat/comp checks over-punishes more casual groups which is what this game was initially catered towards. At the end of the day, raids themselves are divisive. That's also why you don't really see people already in the raiding scene complaining about raiding difficulty; they make those accommodations to beat the raid because beating the raid is what they care more about, rather than playing how they want.

If, for example, they got rid of the monetary gain from raids and made rewards more about prestige limited to within the raiding community akin to WvW (especially before the rewards updates), the population would probably be miniscule. It'd be that way because only a smaller portion of the population actually does it for the sole purpose of pure enjoyment. It's the same thing with what happened to dungeons and why those aren't really played.

[Bish.8627]

I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Bish.8627 said:I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

Where is that lack of focus?Since the first Raid wing launched we got 7 Living Story Episodes and a 100% PvE, Open World centric Expansion, not to mention the recurring festivals.And you got 5 Raid wings, and 3 fractals, not to mention they're separate teams, so focusing one doesn't prevent focus in the others. And looking at GW2 Efficiency, in a Universe of 165000 accounts:75% has participated in Fractals (has 55+ Fractal Relics), 50% have a Fractal level of 39 or higher, so i wouldn't call it a big minority.20% of Players have 8 or more Legendary Insights (so, participated and concluded at least 8 Raid encounters), sure it's a minority, but it's 1 in five people.

In terms of open world and exploration... 50% players have 1 ore more Gifts of Exploration, 8 or more Gifts can be encountered in 1% of the population.Only 25% of the population has accrued enough Mastery points to max out their masteries (only ~25% of the 165k accounts have more than 251 Mastery points)For WvW:Only 75% of the population has captured 9 supply camps or more in WvW, and/or killed 7 or more caravans.In PVP, 50% are below rank 25...

So yeah, i wouldn't say there's a big difference between any game mode from another. Sure raids have less participation than, Fractals, PvP or WvW, but there's more people that have been in a Fractal (according to that sample) or even a Raid and completed some of the content, than those that unlocked all 251 available mastery points (already discounted the Raid ones).So i'd say, even without all the complete data, that there's a huge assumption there in your reasoning that Raids and Fractals (and especially the later) are played by a small portion of the population.

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:From what I understand the majority of people who don't like it are people who just don't like the entire ideology of a fixed meta and forced builds and subsequently the "harder difficulty" which is really just mostly stat/comp checks over-punishes more casual groups which is what this game was initially catered towards. At the end of the day, raids themselves are divisive. That's also why you don't really see people already in the raiding scene complaining about raiding difficulty; they make those accommodations to beat the raid because beating the raid is what they care more about, rather than playing how they want.

If, for example, they got rid of the monetary gain from raids and made rewards more about prestige limited to within the raiding community akin to WvW (especially before the rewards updates), the population would probably be miniscule. It'd be that way because only a smaller portion of the population actually does it for the sole purpose of pure enjoyment. It's the same thing with what happened to dungeons and why those aren't really played.

If there were no rewards anywhere, no one would play anything. WvW was still rewarding, in many ways. Actually, it's arguably less rewarding now than it was before.And yes, a LOT of people would, and DO play Raids without rewards. I must remind you that you only get the rewards from raids once a week. And yet there's A TON of people, many of them some of those "Elitists" that repeat raids without reward for fun, and to help other people learn them.

@Vayne.8563 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise,

still

don't like raids.Who would have thought?

Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

The only time the stories were relevant to the living story, Arena Net gave us an NPC recounting it. After that the Raid Story is as important to the living story as the latest fractal is, or arguably less.Why would raiders care less about the story? You're being prejudiced, just because you can't enjoy both things, doesn't mean that other people can't.If you like the story, go play the raids, what it seems to me is that you don't like it that much. Or like it as much as the guys crying out that story bosses are "too hard".If there was no challenge, no interaction, what difference would there be between playing a game, and watching a movie?If a movie is what you want to watch, there's probably a ton of youtube and twitch streams playing the story, and definitely the raids.

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"FrostDraco.8306" said:

Pretty much everytime I visit this thread, this is all I ever see.

No wonder people complain about getting clears. Theres more than a squads worth of raiders/fractalers complaining rather than out there clearing the raids/fractals. And this is just from the first page. Most of which were posted within the last few days.

Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

That's not a problem with the raiding community. That's a problem with the hyper-casual players that don't know what a Raid is.

There was one guy that approached me after i suggested that i do raids with a very noob group and we're still learning and welcome everyone to join us. So i invited him to guild and later we were discussing Raids, and i mentioned that there's a required DPS level for bosses. And he asked how can i tell DPS, and i told him about DPS meters and the Golem. Took him to the golem, we did a few runs at the golem, and we were talking about stuff like i usually run chrono and tank, when he asked if the boss would just stay in one place. He promptly said he didn't want to Raid any more, that it was too much like Magic the Gathering (as in very clinical and tactical), and left the guild.

So yeah, a lot of people expect that a Raid boss is kind of like a mini World boss or something that you can just wave at it until it dies, but that ignorance doesn't refrain them from harping about "elitism" and what not, while ignoring that Raids are the hardest content in the game, that even the "elites" need hours and hours for their first clears. It's not just something you can wave a stick at.And even the worse T4 fractal is nothing compared to a Raid boss. (I mean i did the new fractal in roughly an hour, and that was after scouring every corner for those wounded things, and waiting for a mate to join, and then figuring out the boss mechanics. All the while with a not very meta group. But the fastest raid clears still took them several hours to figure out, with the groups that "create" the meta).

So yeah, i see a lot of these complains, and what i see is people that want stuff handed to them.

First this game was promoted as relativ causal game and gw 1 was kinda the same way only even more .Gild Wars was a counter design to WoW (Everything they to wrong we do right). This included more content be solo playable.You do realize that GW1 had raids, yes? And it was less WoW, and more Diablo, in terms of multiplayer.

What here is describe as "elitism" has its roots more in the game mechanic then most people thing. I know this because I have seen it in other MMOs too.What I mean with this are enrage timers which wipe the group when a certain DPS of the group has not been met.Its meant to be challenging content. The Enrage timers are there to apply pressure to the players. With 10 players you could eventually kill anything given an infinite amount of time.

First it is a huge bottleneck for classes and built which can't be part of it. This doesn't mean it must be impossible to run with the raid for a certain class/built(not all) but because it increase the chance of survival they won't run with them.

Well, there's some classes that are less used, doesn't mean that they're impossible to run. Just that they're less optimal than others, because they heal less, do more damage, or don't have as many support options as others. It doesn't mean that you can't take them into a raid, just means you'll have to work harder to be on par with other players with more efficient classes.

There is also a more nuanced situation with it for normal players it is survive fist damage second but because players need to make damage to survive its kinda flips over. I can't say this is a problem but it shows how such a mechanic generate a complete different kind of content.It's meant to be a different kind of content. That's why they're raids, and not 10 man Fractals or Dungeons.

Then there is the need for a dps meter GW2 has something special here because some other games provide add-on interfaces but in GW 2 it is more like tolerated because it is a 3d party app(which stand has Arena NET currently?), only we have now the Golem as alternative the point is more people start to look at this way too much and it dripping down into other content like the fractals with the LFG which is very toxic.In other games the add-ons are generally 3rd party as well. Toxic LFG... I don't know where you get this. Honestly, i rarely see LFG asking for DPS or whatever. Usually i see asking for specific classes like chrono or druid (which improve QoL a lot in T4) or dps and "a brain", but except for VERY SPECIFIC groups that want speed runs or the like (and say so in LFG) i don't usually see any kind of toxic LFG.And in 5 years of playing GW2, i've been kicked once from a group. And ended up in the same group and finished the fractal. And i was kicked because arena net had made it very dificult to do T4 fractals with classes that could put out retaliation, because bosses would copy the boon, and you'd end up killing yourself, and guardians put out a lot of that, and i mostly do Fractals with either guard or chrono.

I personally won't join a LFG with XXk dps because of years of experience with this kind of players. It isn't so I don't know what they want but because I know it they don't want team players or being social but only rush through the content as fast as possible.

There you go, that's your prerogative, not playing with them. But it is also their prerogative to be allowed to do speed runs. Not everyone has the same time allowance to playing games, and sometimes it's not fun to waste your game time without being able to finish your objective because one of your allies is literally wasting your time.

This increased then with finding new ways to skip event by exploits to shorten it , is it a intro in fractal 40 or complete raid boss in the new wing.

There are some funny side effects with which I personally witnessed basically some of them seems not to know the event from Subject-6 form the Thaumanova Reactor and the golem from Uncategorized because they burst it always away.That's human nature. People will always look for the most expedient ways of doing any type of anything. And exploits, skips, and whatnot happen in every game in the world, even board games. Chess for example. High level chest, not like Master level, but like you play it a lot and spent time practising and improving, is pretty much about knowing and implementing a finite number of plays, because people pretty much already know all the possible moves, how to play them and how to counter them. So its more about playing your strategy and countering what you know the other guy is doing, than actually doing anything innovative. Only great masters will now and then come up with a new innovative strategy, and those are more and more few and far between.That's the same with videogames, and it's even worse, because monsters and bosses don't have anywhere near the AI required to counter player strategy, and end up with a very predictable set of behaviours. It's really quite easy and fast to find the most optimal strategy to beat the boss.

So when I would design something like this I would really avoid enrage timer so far as possible and make events unskipable.That wouldn't improve anything. The enrage timer is required to keep raids engaging, otherwise you'd see a lot more people solo or duo-ing them, simply by outliving the attacks, and grinding it away for ages.And in raids, all events are already unskipable for the most part. And in Fractals and Dungeons it would be the same thing as it is now, just with more time wasted, and potentially, because of the extra time spent, there'd be even less tolerance for slow, and ineffective builds.

[Feanor.2358]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise,

still

don't like raids.Who would have thought?

Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint.

Except a major part of the complaints was about difficulty in fractals, which do have difficulty tiers. Regardless, people were unwilling to play on lower difficulty, choosing to complain about the difficulty on the highest setting instead. In my opinion, people who genuinely care about the stories are a very small minority. And it is probably easier for them to experience the content as is, by joining a more casual guild and asking to raid with them.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise,

still

don't like raids.Who would have thought?

Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

On the same page with the requests for a Raid easy mode, we see lots of complaining about the new Fractals, a lot of them are the same people too. The SAME posters asking for an easier mode, refuse to run the lower tiers of Fractals. Making any argument for an easy mode very weak at the very least.

[Chris McSwag.4683]

@Bish.8627 said:I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

Yeah, I understand the 10 months of only open world and story releases as well as an expansion solely focused on open world means they focus too much on raids. Sound logic

[Vayne.8563]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise,

still

don't like raids.Who would have thought?

Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

On the same page with the requests for a Raid easy mode, we see lots of complaining about the new Fractals, a lot of them are the same people too. The SAME posters asking for an easier mode, refuse to run the lower tiers of Fractals. Making any argument for an easy mode very weak at the very least.

This is a pretty weeak argument, because you're not arguing it. You're trying to discredit and argument by saying some people who use it ask for something else unreasonable. That doesn't address the issue I have at all.

Fractals themselves have multiple settings and I can play them. So that's not an issue.

Raids affect the main game story. They fill in the gap between Living Story and expansions, and yet Anet knows that only a small minority of the playerbase raids. Should I pay other players 250 gold to see story? Are you suggestion more casual players are interested in story or more raiders. How about number of players that raid or number of players that care about story.

You can't negate an argument by saying that some of the people who are unreasonable also want it. That just sounds like you have no reasons for not wanting it. Story should not be tied to a niche activity because too many casual people play predominantly for story. And raiding is not a casual in game activity.

[CptAurellian.9537]

I must have missed that raids affect the main story in any way. None of the wings so far is relevant or necessary for understanding the main story (be it expansions or living story). I first set foot into a raid long after LS season 3 started (must have been around release of episode 4) and never felt that some important part of the story was missing. Of course, raids do have something of a story, since a raid in a vacuum, devoid of any story, would just plain be boring.