The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

Cyninja.2954 · December 9, 2017

@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

and back to the my first post.

Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

Fact is,

M

ost

E

fficient

T

actic

A

vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

Edit: meta stands for metagame.

and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

How much more proof do you need besides people:

going in with non meta setups
clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
ignoring timers

See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

you keep missing the point...

I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

T

HE

M

OST

E

FFICIENT

T

ACTIC

A

VAILABLE

T

ILL

T

HE

N

EXT

P

ATCH.

But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

blambidy.3216 · December 9, 2017

The sucky part of competitive play is more whiners, more bashers, more angry people then playing in pve. Out of all pve map questing, there are rarely complainers except, when losing in a meta. Noticing the competetive play, you get more high strung people, and rarely any people who are relaxed. So therefore more competetive spots will bring in more stress. The things people don't want to overcome, will make them always whine untill they can make it through. Most people sadly won't try to get through the game without worrying about how hard the game is. Most people just want to play and let the game be easy. The people who havent made it through and complain cant think of another way to win, so they blame the dev, and make them make the game easier. That is why so much negativity in the fractals, and raids, and pvp part of this forum site.

People complain about the balance of the game. And making living world season 4 episode 1 easier. But I honestly dont have problems in balance... I just work my way around what sucks against my class. And shoot lvs4 ep 1 was freakin epic. That episode was far better then all the living world seasons. I did that with another person after I finished because it was amazing. As much as there are complainers, I have to really give arenanet credit. These guys never argue with what people post about them. Even with the most disrespectful things people say about them. As much as I love gw2 I noticed the people in the forums are like completely different people then actually playing the game. Its a completely different atmosphere.

TexZero.7910 · December 9, 2017

@"Alinora Targew.1679" said:you keep missing the point...
I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

Just as you keep missing theirs.

Make your own group with your own ruleset. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from playing whatever bonkers ideas and concepts you can come up with outside of you not being a leader and making your own groups.

Also here's your tank guard at VG since you asked for it-

Vayne.8563 · December 9, 2017

@maddoctor.2738 said:
@"Vayne.8563" said:Raids affect the main game story. They fill in the gap between Living Story and expansions, and yet Anet knows that only a small minority of the playerbase raids. Should I pay other players 250 gold to see story? Are you suggestion more casual players are interested in story or more raiders. How about number of players that raid or number of players that care about story.

Can you understand the story of Season 3 without ever touching any Raid? Yes.Does the story of Season 3 make perfect sense without ever touching any Raid? Yes.Raids do not fill any gap between expansions, in the first Raid wings 1 and 2 were pretty much an attempt to save a Pact Squad gone missing.The Second Raid was standalone and nothing that happened there affected the story.The Third Raid is also standalone and doesn't progress the main story of the world.

And that leaves us with wing 3 of the first Raid, and specifically the reveal of the chamber. Given how:1) No NPC acknowledges that anything happened in the Raid2) The commander doesn't seem to care to mention what happened in the Raid3) Almorra Soulkeeper doesn't seem to even know that one of her squads was missing4) Our characters being surprised when they see Lazarus... really a 5-year old would expect him to appear at any moment after seeing the chamber

We can pretty much say that even that part of the "story" didn't affect the plot of the game the least bit. From the game's standpoint it's as if it never happened.Not to mention the rather huge plot hole, when was Balthazar put inside the stasis chamber again?

The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

FrostDraco.8306 · December 9, 2017

@blambidy.3216 said:The sucky part of competitive play is more whiners, more bashers, more angry people then playing in pve. Out of all pve map questing, there are rarely complainers except, when losing in a meta. Noticing the competetive play, you get more high strung people, and rarely any people who are relaxed. So therefore more competetive spots will bring in more stress. The things people don't want to overcome, will make them always whine untill they can make it through. Most people sadly won't try to get through the game without worrying about how hard the game is. Most people just want to play and let the game be easy. The people who havent made it through and complain cant think of another way to win, so they blame the dev, and make them make the game easier. That is why so much negativity in the fractals, and raids, and pvp part of this forum site.
People complain about the balance of the game. And making living world season 4 episode 1 easier. But I honestly dont have problems in balance... I just work my way around what sucks against my class. And shoot lvs4 ep 1 was freakin epic. That episode was far better then all the living world seasons. I did that with another person after I finished because it was amazing. As much as there are complainers, I have to really give arenanet credit. These guys never argue with what people post about them. Even with the most disrespectful things people say about them. As much as I love gw2 I noticed the people in the forums are like completely different people then actually playing the game. Its a completely different atmosphere.

This isnt exactly true. Do I need to bring up Brazil and the partner program incident because he dared make a video about the inconsistencies with outfits and legendary armor?

Also the foums is different because the two types of players are rarely in the same space inside the actual game. You wouldn't believe how many passive aggressive people i get for even mentioning dps ever in open world, or telling someone to solo a veteran, or telling someone to solo a champion and showing them how.

The forums add to it with the mods randomly censoring every post they feel is 'not too nice', which leads to people reposting and basically having to remove contest or form from their argument or risk getting banned.

ArcanistSeven.8720 · December 9, 2017

i stopped giving a shit about raids when i seen the legendary medium armor and mostly played fractals. i laugh at the amount of posts asking for you to use food im not wasting my food on fractals unless its a CM so i post my own party and its usually takes 30 minutes and im done. i stopped caring about the fractal 100 cm the requirements for hard content keep going up so its harder to a find a group plus the rewards are shit ill a fractal 99 cm when i feel like it that ones fun to do.

Rennie.6750 · December 10, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

and back to the my first post.

Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

Fact is,

M

ost

E

fficient

T

actic

A

vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

Edit: meta stands for metagame.

and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

How much more proof do you need besides people:

going in with non meta setups
clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
ignoring timers

See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

you keep missing the point...

I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

T

HE

M

OST

E

FFICIENT

T

ACTIC

A

VAILABLE

T

ILL

T

HE

N

EXT

P

ATCH.

But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Evolute.6239 · December 10, 2017

@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

and back to the my first post.

Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

Fact is,

M

ost

E

fficient

T

actic

A

vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

Edit: meta stands for metagame.

and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

How much more proof do you need besides people:

going in with non meta setups
clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
ignoring timers

See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

you keep missing the point...

I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

T

HE

M

OST

E

FFICIENT

T

ACTIC

A

VAILABLE

T

ILL

T

HE

N

EXT

P

ATCH.

But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

I mean, no, they're not, and we're free to laugh at them for that opinion and hope Arenanet doesn't cater to that kind of mindless entitled drivel.

Rennie.6750 · December 10, 2017

@Evolute.6239 said:
@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

and back to the my first post.

Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

Fact is,

M

ost

E

fficient

T

actic

A

vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

Edit: meta stands for metagame.

and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

How much more proof do you need besides people:

going in with non meta setups
clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
ignoring timers

See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

you keep missing the point...

I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

T

HE

M

OST

E

FFICIENT

T

ACTIC

A

VAILABLE

T

ILL

T

HE

N

EXT

P

ATCH.

But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

I mean, no, they're not, and we're free to laugh at them for that opinion and hope Arenanet doesn't cater to that kind of mindless entitled drivel.

It's not "entitlement", there's an audience for that. WoW does that well.

Illconceived Was Na.9781 · December 10, 2017

@Rennie.6750 said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

FrostDraco.8306 · December 10, 2017

@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

and back to the my first post.

Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

Fact is,

M

ost

E

fficient

T

actic

A

vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

Edit: meta stands for metagame.

and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

How much more proof do you need besides people:

going in with non meta setups
clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
ignoring timers

See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

you keep missing the point...

I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

T

HE

M

OST

E

FFICIENT

T

ACTIC

A

VAILABLE

T

ILL

T

HE

N

EXT

P

ATCH.

But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Actually thats exactly what it means, in the sense that, it's able to properly, or reasonably be fulfilled. Wishes that are nothing but wishful thinking or irrational, will never have as much weight as those that are.

Which person do you cater to, the one asking for a small pitence, or the person asking for the world? One of these wishes is grandiose, and unfulfillable, therefore illegitimate as a grantable wish.

Their 'wishes' are barely wishes. They are feelings that the poster doesn't know how to deal with. And instead of dealing with those feelings. They come here and place blame, and demand things from us who don't care. That Isn't a wish. That's deflection.

maddoctor.2738 · December 10, 2017

@"Vayne.8563" said:The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

Astralporing.1957 · December 10, 2017

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

Cyninja.2954 · December 10, 2017

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

Everyone's wishes are not equally legitimate. Legitimate means they are conforming to rules or they can can be logically defended. When the developers clearly state that they want certain content to be xyz and this content has been xyz (or was ment to be xyz) for years, a persons wishes that go against this design are less legitimate than others.

Every person has a right to their wishes, but not all wishes are equally realistic or legitimate. It's the same as a person asking for a story encounter to be on a raid scale difficulty. That wish would be just as illegitimate as what was discussed here so far.

Feanor.2358 · December 10, 2017

@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

and back to the my first post.

Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

Fact is,

M

ost

E

fficient

T

actic

A

vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

Edit: meta stands for metagame.

and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

How much more proof do you need besides people:

going in with non meta setups
clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
ignoring timers

See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

you keep missing the point...

I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

T

HE

M

OST

E

FFICIENT

T

ACTIC

A

VAILABLE

T

ILL

T

HE

N

EXT

P

ATCH.

But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

It's actually you who are missing the point.

Your position has an inherent problem. If you try to make all the content doable by any snowflake build someone might consider "fun", you'll end up with an incredibly boring game with zero replayability value. Why? Because the only way to achieve that is to make sure the content couldn't possibly beat you. This eliminates all challenge, and by extension, all fun. Now, before you jump on me, clearly different players seek different levels of challenge. I'm well aware of that. However, they still seek some level of challenge, regardless if they realize it or not. Playing on god mode is simply not fun, and that's a fact.

Big games like this do the most reasonable thing - they offer different content with varying levels of difficulty. While this inevitably means some players will get excluded from some of the content, it is better than either alternative. Because zero difficulty will end up pleasing zero players and a fixed difficulty will end up pleasing considerably smaller number of them than a varying one.

T4 fractals, fractal CMs and raids are the highest difficulty content in this game. It is only normal that you can't (or it is very hard to) do them with only sentinel guards. It's by design. It is what makes them worth playing for the players they're targeted at. And before you jump on me again saying these players are a minority - yes, they probably are, but the game nevertheless tries to offer them something. Because it already offers a lower difficulty content to entertain the players who like to play sentinel guard. It's not a choice of "X players or Y players where X > Y". It never was. It's only a choice of "X players or X+Y players".

Rennie.6750 · December 10, 2017

@FrostDraco.8306 said:
@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Rennie.6750 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Alinora Targew.1679 said:
Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

and back to the my first post.

Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

Fact is,

M

ost

E

fficient

T

actic

A

vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

Edit: meta stands for metagame.

and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

How much more proof do you need besides people:

going in with non meta setups
clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers
clearing the content with vastly inferior gear
ignoring timers

See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

you keep missing the point...

I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

T

HE

M

OST

E

FFICIENT

T

ACTIC

A

VAILABLE

T

ILL

T

HE

N

EXT

P

ATCH.

But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

So basically you want to run a tank guardian in pve. Tell me, which game mode was ever suited for sentinel guardian in pve?

It was never useful for dungeons, fractals or even open world (where it's total overkill defense wise). So why should raids be any different?

Yet you could also run sentinel guardian, if you join a guild and convince people to take you along as sentinel guardian.

Yes, there is a ton of useless stat combos in this game.

Without timers, what would stop people from just taking the tankiest possible gear, just take their time killing a boss and circumvent 90% off all mechanics by out tanking them? You can't make every attack a do-or-die mechanic. That would be even less fun (well not for everyone, fractal 50 used to be that way and people enjoyed it).

Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Actually thats exactly what it means, in the sense that, it's able to properly, or reasonably be fulfilled. Wishes that are nothing but wishful thinking or irrational, will never have as much weight as those that are.

Which person do you cater to, the one asking for a small pitence, or the person asking for the world? One of these wishes is grandiose, and unfulfillable, therefore illegitimate as a grantable wish.

Their 'wishes' are barely wishes. They are feelings that the poster doesn't know how to deal with. And instead of dealing with those feelings. They come here and place blame, and demand things from us who don't care. That Isn't a wish. That's deflection.

It's simpler than that. There's no morality involved. Games are entertainment, and when a quite significant part of your audience says they'd have more fun if X happened, at some point, unless you have no place in conducting such a business, you're going to make it happen, unless it's some daunting task and a massive undertaking requiring changing engine or removing microtransations. In this case it's not, the art is there and it would only require a few weeks of design, testing and balancing, so if people keep asking, it will happen, because it worked in every other MMO. If they want it and it's doable, they're right to ask, honestly. There is no moral high ground involved in the process, it's just basic player satisfaction.

GrubySzymek.1362 · December 10, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Cyninja.2954 · December 10, 2017

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as

preferences

, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what

they

believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the

only

voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way :)

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

maddoctor.2738 · December 10, 2017

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts? :)

Mounts were in the game for a very long time (riding broom, carpet and so on)The developers specifically said when Path of Fire was released that Mounts were never "off table" they just wanted to implement them in a way that makes them unique and not just speed boosters. It's not a coincidence that mount abilities translate very well in Zephyrite Crystal abilities (and gliding)

There is a reason they never replied to any of the Mount threads, either denying that they are coming, nor confirming that they are coming.

GrubySzymek.1362 · December 10, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@"Kheldorn.5123" said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
@"Rennie.6750" said:Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.