The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

As long as people point out what their negative feedback (as short and without solutions to their problems it might be) is about, enough of the feedback does show the designers that community considers there to be a problem that should be somehow solved or designers at least to take a stance on to understand if there will be changes incoming or not. It's a great bonus if the feedback also gives suggestions to solving the problem and without such suggestions it's up to designers to figure how to solve it.

A good example of this is how devs clearly are aiming for build versatility these days, but they do lack feedback on what should be improved about non-meta weapon combos and classes due to there not existing numerical data about where those stand currently since people mainly test builds considered "meta" by some builds and either don't bother testing anything weaker than meta or don't publish their results 'cause "trash builds are trash", like a high-up of a certain metabible-guild has said.And thus their balancing is pretty much guesswork and either goes overboard or the changes are too little.And when someone actually tests and plays those builds with success, the buildtrashing peoples try to silence that person for whatever reason. Like it has happened to Kitty, the favourite meme of the great metabible-guild (and you've also been quite loud part about it, Kitty's noticed), when she's been benchmarking (though a bit flawed 'cause deeeerp) and posting videos playing those non-metabuilds (like power soulbeast and renegade, tank/heal scourge, healwarrior, heal-engi...) at endgame bosses. These complainers seem to almost exclusively belong to speedrun guilds and tbh, speedrunners are minority within a minority, though relatively very loud as such.

And apparently you're starting the same "shut up and adjust" about these people who want some difficulty modifications to raids.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important-No one cares about your feelings BUT youTrue, but considering that players are also customers and keep the game alive by buying stuff from gem store and by playing it, they can always stop playing the game if they feel too discontent about it and if that starts happening in masses, game will be dead. Though feelings might not be cared about, the financial consequences derived from feelings better by addressed before they start seriously affecting the game. And while at it, GW2's devs actually play the game and want it to be as enjoyable as possible for both themselves and for customers. Wait, that means feelings are actually cared about?Also, endgame community has been indeed shouting "we need more challenging content or we quit 'cause we're soooo bored" (like metabible-guild did to some extent). Now they've been given perhaps the most challenging raid this far. Have they come back and how long will they stay? Besides, GW2 has always been mainly a game for casuals and Anet most likely wants to keep casuals playing the game since the masses of casuals bring the majority of their income. In that regard, raid community has actually been quite exclusive towards casuals, requiring either belonging to a raiding guild, a static group or having both playing raids for months and only using the metabible-approved metabuild with proper rotation or KICK. The casuals are also getting scared away from the raiding 'cause they're getting told "raid are very difficult and unless you're highly geared and very skilled at your class, you better stay out". Kitty agrees that the gears should be at least somewhat suitable for purpose and peoples should have the basic understanding on how to play their classes, but raids aren't really that challenging once you learn the mechanics. Like half of the bosses are easily doable as long as mechanics are properly paid attention to without any of the steep DPS checks that lots of people like to claim there is ('cause they like to deal with minimum mechanics possible. Which makes one question if they're not comfy with executing the mechanics?).What the wall of text above is about? Feelings of joy, boredom and scaredness. Believe or not but they do have quite an effect.

-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issuesBut that also doesn't mean that experiences don't mean anything.-There are exceptions to just about every rule-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,+personality+play time+lack of experience

• lack of personal skill+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

Very few businesses or games would survive if their devs and owners had the mindset of the sentence above. If the world was like that, it would be a way colder place than it already is.

[zealex.9410]

Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to fuck themselves over.)

[zealex.9410]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

As long as people point out what their negative feedback (as short and without solutions to their problems it might be) is about, enough of the feedback does show the designers that community considers there to be a problem that should be somehow solved or designers at least to take a stance on to understand if there will be changes incoming or not. It's a great bonus if the feedback also gives suggestions to solving the problem and without such suggestions it's up to designers to figure how to solve it.

A good example of this is how devs clearly are aiming for build versatility these days, but they do lack feedback on what should be improved about non-meta weapon combos and classes due to there not existing numerical data about where those stand currently since people mainly test builds considered "meta" by some builds and either don't bother testing anything weaker than meta or don't publish their results 'cause "trash builds are trash", like a high-up of a certain metabible-guild has said.And thus their balancing is pretty much guesswork and either goes overboard or the changes are too little.And when someone actually tests and plays those builds with success, the buildtrashing peoples try to silence that person for whatever reason. Like it has happened to Kitty, the favourite meme of the great metabible-guild (and you've also been quite loud part about it, Kitty's noticed), when she's been benchmarking (though a bit flawed 'cause deeeerp) and posting videos playing those non-metabuilds (like power soulbeast and renegade, tank/heal scourge, healwarrior, heal-engi...) at endgame bosses. These complainers seem to almost exclusively belong to speedrun guilds and tbh, speedrunners are minority within a minority, though relatively very loud as such.

And apparently you're starting the same "shut up and adjust" about these people who want some difficulty modifications to raids.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important-No one cares about your feelings BUT youTrue, but considering that players are also customers and keep the game alive by buying stuff from gem store and by playing it, they can always stop playing the game if they feel too discontent about it and if that starts happening in masses, game will be dead. Though feelings might not be cared about, the financial consequences derived from feelings better by addressed before they start seriously affecting the game. And while at it, GW2's devs actually play the game and want it to be as enjoyable as possible for both themselves and for customers. Wait, that means feelings are actually cared about?Also, endgame community has been indeed shouting "we need more challenging content or we quit 'cause we're soooo bored" (like metabible-guild did to some extent). Now they've been given perhaps the most challenging raid this far. Have they come back and how long will they stay? Besides, GW2 has always been mainly a game for casuals and Anet most likely wants to keep casuals playing the game since the masses of casuals bring the majority of their income. In that regard, raid community has actually been quite exclusive towards casuals, requiring either belonging to a raiding guild, a static group or having both playing raids for months and only using the metabible-approved metabuild with proper rotation or KICK. The casuals are also getting scared away from the raiding 'cause they're getting told "raid are very difficult and unless you're highly geared and very skilled at your class, you better stay out". Kitty agrees that the gears should be at least somewhat suitable for purpose and peoples should have the basic understanding on how to play their classes, but raids aren't really that challenging once you learn the mechanics. Like half of the bosses are easily doable as long as mechanics are properly paid attention to without any of the steep DPS checks that lots of people like to claim there is ('cause they like to deal with minimum mechanics possible. Which makes one question if they're not comfy with executing the mechanics?).What the wall of text above is about? Feelings of joy, boredom and scaredness. Believe or not but they do have quite an effect.

-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issuesBut that also doesn't mean that experiences don't mean anything.-There are exceptions to just about every rule-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,+personality+play time+lack of experience

• lack of personal skill+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

Very few businesses or games would survive if their devs and owners had the mindset of the sentence above. If the world was like that, it would be a way colder place than it already is.

That was the mindset that blizzard had when WOW game exploded. You know when WOW played like an mmo and had the sense of community and making friends. Instead of this "play together alone bs"

[Rennie.6750]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:On the contrary, I believe the biggest problem of raiding is its organised nature and artificial push of 10-man grouping. The latter is biggest issue here as it's not only a problem of organising 10 "casuals" to find time together for few hours to progress raiding but also it brought a lot of problems from technical point of view.

First thing - grouping. OP is accusing casuals of not willing to find a team. I can only speak for myself here but many will share this view - we are not teenagers anymore. It is sometimes hard to find 2 hours in a busy week to meet with our lifetime friends and you expect us to find time for 8 more people as busy as we are? It's not impossible, but it's also not as trivial as for teenagers whose only problems in life are attracting people at school and farming in GW2.

About 10 man raiding - the game is balanced and coded for 5 man groups since the beginning of time. Raiding caused a mess in case of balancing. They wanted to avoid creating 1 supercomp but this is what GW2 is in a nutshell. There will always be supergroup and there will always be professions excluded from the raid.

If raids were 5-man content, everything would be easier from both technical and social perspective.

Now about OP. Your thread doesn't follow the rules of providing good feedback and hopefully will disappear soon. For every thread you mock up here there are always 5-7 raid heroes defending everything about raiding without any constructive reason or discussion. This section of forums is always following same scenario:

1. a problem is presented
2. "git gud"
3. Paste qt build site
4. Go play open world

Raiding community is hurting itself. You are not inviting, you are not constructive. Most of you are hidden within your raiding guild circles patting each other backs every day. Discussing anything with you is impossible.

One thing about raiding needs to be reminded to Anet - raiders in this game will never be happy. You created an atmosphere for them to exist here even though your game is not a place for them. You will be burning out your resources, passion and good will but a week or a month after raid release all you will hear from them is "raids are easy, git gud, when new win?".

In fact that's one of the problem of having such a low man count for raids, not the opposite. Back in WoW's early days (I'm that old), Molten Core was a 40 player raid. Since it required such big groups, it had to be tuned specifically so that it was more a social endeavour (making sure everyone could make it and was ready) rather than a mechanical challenge and a hard check on how fast you could click your spells. It wasn't uncommon to have half of the 40 player count laying dead on the ground at the end of the encounter. I believe that if the player count in GW2 was 25 or more, raids would have to be more open to various types of player and be more of a social event, because well when you have to fill so many slots you can't be picky. Contrary to what most people imagine today, molten core and Naxxramas weren't really difficult per se, the real challenges were before (making sure everyone was attending) and after (the guild surviving the loot sharing drama) the raid, not inside.

[meeflak.9714]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

But

what we usually have in this forum, and what op is addressing , Is lack of constructive feedback .. we have soooo many threads in this forum that are just complaints, without any sort of actual conversation points. Without hardly any constructive criticism to give, that's the problem.Let's not pretend like OPs post was constructive.

Let's not pretend that any of these threads are Constructive..... Let's not pretend like any of these threads provide actual feedback, confront actual issues, or give any genuine attempt to settle problems

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Now about OP. Your thread doesn't follow the rules of providing good feedback and hopefully will disappear soon. For every thread you mock up here there are always 5-7 raid heroes defending everything about raiding without any constructive reason or discussion.

Actually the threads mentioned in the OP do not follow the rules of providing good feedback either.In every thread of those mentioned in the OP, the anti-raid heroes pop up (when it's not created by them) defending the opening without offering any constructive reason or any basis for discussion. There are quite a few anti-raid people that appear on nearly every thread on this sub-forum, that never posted a single constructive post only pure ignorance and hate.

[meeflak.9714]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

Especially those players who harm the same game they are playing by spreading misinformation and hatred on other forms of media.Hell there was this guy (which hasn't posted in a while - thank god) who made a post on an unrelated website where you review companies, and wrote a "review" on Anet complaining about Raids of all things. Yes the community is the biggest problem. They will find all sorts of silly ways to complain, and what's more important is that they are a tiny minority that think they represent a majority.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

[Feanor.2358]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

[Feanor.2358]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

And neither is the "small, vocal minority" you keep talking about, but it doesn't prevent you from generalizing, does it?

[Linken.6345]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

You mean s/he cant do like you do and think they are the majority when complaining about fractals getting to hard and competing with raids?

[Henry.5713]

Amusing to have the abundance of these threads pointed out like that. All though, I am not sure if this is a problem with our raiding community in particular since most of these OPs are not even part of said community. The majority of them simply complains about the fact that there is any content they do not like or are supposedly not able to do themselves. They complain how it requires any effort to do anything. A problem with the overall game community rather than any small part of it.

[Omnicron.2467]

Looking at all those forum post titles is quite depressing. I understand somewhat, however. Yesterday Twilight Oasis was a recommended daily for T3, and I had already cleared it quite easily on T4 twice without wiping or training. Now I am in this T3 group with the title "Know mechanics or Kick", and I am like, ok sounds toxic but they are at last boss. After 5 wipes, and always being the last man standing I joined another group and cleared it without any problems. So some people genuinely stuggle, but I personally find the fracals very easy, even Shattered Observatory, unless they are on Challenge Mode.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

And neither is the "small, vocal minority" you keep talking about, but it doesn't prevent you from generalizing, does it?

And neither are so called "casuals" your minor part of the community keeps telling to "git gud" :)

[Daniel.5428]

Let me explain you how things are going on. I am a raider since the beginning and I never had a static group, I was raiding only with LFG. I got my legendary armor with a lot of hard work, I spent hours learning rotations, farmed a lot for stats change, made new classes etc. And at the end, it was rewarding. I was better in raids, more classes = more possibilities etc. In my point of you, Wing 5 is not event hard. I mean I killed Desmina and did the 2 events during the first week, with LFG. Never killed some raid bosses so fast in the other Wings. It's barely a week since the wing was released and people are complaining instead of trying to do it. I've seen new raiders starting raiding. They asked me questions, I gave them answers and advices, they tried they rotations and I was very surprised when a fresh player from my training guild who had 3 LI did everything perfect during W4, first 3 bosses. Everything, from gear to damage, to positioning. Because he tried. And then I've seen people with 50 LI complaining about raids being bad when they don't even know their rotations, they just spamm random skills. So, for every new players who look at this, raids are not bad, the community is complaining too much. If you wanna raid, first make sure you have checked these 3 requirements: Build, boss strategy, rotation. Then, in time, you will develop your own playstile for a boss.

[miku.3025]

people that truly enjoy the content, they don't really come to the forum to post.. perhaps reddit is more popular.if we remember SAB. everyone was crying about it when the tribulation mode first came out. only a handful of former including myself that actually support Josh. what happen then, when SAB do not return. ppl started to cry for it. .... just take it easy with raids and life goes on. raid and fractals are the only content that i actually enjoy in gw2.

[Feanor.2358]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

And neither is the "small, vocal minority" you keep talking about, but it doesn't prevent you from generalizing, does it?

And neither are so called "casuals" your minor part of the community keeps telling to "git gud" :)

And I never claimed I don't generalize. The difference being, I admit it and you don't and my advices being at least theoretically working.By the way, I want you to prove "my part" of the community is minor. I look forward to that, just give me a minute to grab some popcorn.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

And neither is the "small, vocal minority" you keep talking about, but it doesn't prevent you from generalizing, does it?

And neither are so called "casuals" your minor part of the community keeps telling to "git gud" :)

And I never claimed I don't generalize. The difference being, I admit it and you don't and my advices being at least theoretically working.By the way, I want you to prove "my part" of the community is minor. I look forward to that, just give me a minute to grab some popcorn.

It's very easy. Even devs when creating raids stated it's only for small part of community :)

You have no numbers to say they were wrong with their predictions :)

[Feanor.2358]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

And neither is the "small, vocal minority" you keep talking about, but it doesn't prevent you from generalizing, does it?

And neither are so called "casuals" your minor part of the community keeps telling to "git gud" :)

And I never claimed I don't generalize. The difference being, I admit it and you don't and my advices being at least theoretically working.By the way, I want you to prove "my part" of the community is minor. I look forward to that, just give me a minute to grab some popcorn.

It's very easy. Even devs when creating raids stated it's only for small part of community :)

You have no numbers to say they were wrong with their predictions :)

And you don't have numbers to support it. Trying to assume the position of a majority and take a moral high ground when you're defending nothing but your own preferences, with nothing but your own feelings toward the content, is quite amusing.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

And neither is the "small, vocal minority" you keep talking about, but it doesn't prevent you from generalizing, does it?

And neither are so called "casuals" your minor part of the community keeps telling to "git gud" :)

And I never claimed I don't generalize. The difference being, I admit it and you don't and my advices being at least theoretically working.By the way, I want you to prove "my part" of the community is minor. I look forward to that, just give me a minute to grab some popcorn.

It's very easy. Even devs when creating raids stated it's only for small part of community :)

You have no numbers to say they were wrong with their predictions :)

And you don't have numbers to support it. Trying to assume the position of a majority and take a moral high ground when you're defending nothing but your own preferences, with nothing but your own feelings toward the content, is quite amusing.

Devs themselves claimed this is content for small portion of community and never changed this statement meaning you are a minority of the game :)

[Feanor.2358]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@meeflak.9714 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Some times i feel the playerbase does more harm to this game than any bad decision by anet.

(Excluding some cases ofc towards pvp wvw but even there the playerbase will find a way to kitten themselves over.)

This is very true. Community is the biggest problem of this game :)

For real... The community does more to taint the image of the game then the game does itself... It's extremely unfortunate to see all of these "fans" of the game, berate the game over the most miniscule complaints they can muster up. People who have a personal vendetta, because they feel under appreciated , or whatever it may be. Those who come into the forums to cut down the devs and the community like they do, really don't understand the harm they are actually doing.

It happens in every game. Forums are irrelevant, what happens between different players in game is bigger issue, especially when game loses its identity to pleasaure minority in expense of majority :)

It's not an issue, it's a normal process. As evidenced by it happening again, and again, and again, it totally different environments. And it's not driven by "minority", it's driven by the player base as a whole. You can complain all you like about it, or you can accept the facts and adapt. The choice is yours. In any case, I would advise against thinking you understand something about the game better than the developers. Even with their professional qualifications aside, they have a lot more data, a lot better view and therefore far better understanding of the game and the processes in it than the average player.

P.S. By the way, putting smiley faces on all your posts do not make them any less toxic and hostile or any more true.

The playerbase as a whole is not unified, universal sentient being. Every person has own personal goals and ideas and you can't generalize like this :)

And neither is the "small, vocal minority" you keep talking about, but it doesn't prevent you from generalizing, does it?

And neither are so called "casuals" your minor part of the community keeps telling to "git gud" :)

And I never claimed I don't generalize. The difference being, I admit it and you don't and my advices being at least theoretically working.By the way, I want you to prove "my part" of the community is minor. I look forward to that, just give me a minute to grab some popcorn.

It's very easy. Even devs when creating raids stated it's only for small part of community :)

You have no numbers to say they were wrong with their predictions :)

And you don't have numbers to support it. Trying to assume the position of a majority and take a moral high ground when you're defending nothing but your own preferences, with nothing but your own feelings toward the content, is quite amusing.

Devs themselves claimed this is content for small portion of community and never changed this statement meaning you are a minority of the game :)

It still doesn't make you a majority.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Devs themselves claimed this is content for small portion of community and never changed this statement meaning you are a minority of the game :)

They said it's the ultimate challenge, not that it's for a small portion of the community.How many are up to this "ultimate challenge" is up for debate. If you have any actual numbers to share with us, please do.