We need to eliminate supply wasting/trolling please — Guild Wars 2 Forums

We need to eliminate supply wasting/trolling please

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 17, 2018 in WvW

I would like to propose removing the wxp AND participation (for pips) gain from using supply to repair walls and doors. Why? because there have been enough instances where supplies have been drained/wasted for personal gain, and it hurts those defending. It's been long enough, so please do something to remedy this long standing issue.

Comments

  • Optimator.3589Optimator.3589 Member ✭✭✭

    Rather than entirely removing participation and WXP from repairing, just put it on a diminishing return that resets every 2nd tick. That way you still get credit for performing a needed repair, but you need to actually go do other stuff if you want to keep participation up.

    REDUCE NA TO 3 TIERS

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Rather than entirely removing participation and WXP from repairing, just put it on a diminishing return that resets every 2nd tick. That way you still get credit for performing a needed repair, but you need to actually go do other stuff if you want to keep participation up.

    I feel we need to take a hard stance. The rewards for successfully defending are good enough. You get wxp and participation, and your team gets to keep the objective.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Rather than entirely removing participation and WXP from repairing, just put it on a diminishing return that resets every 2nd tick. That way you still get credit for performing a needed repair, but you need to actually go do other stuff if you want to keep participation up.

    I feel we need to take a hard stance. The rewards for successfully defending are good enough. You get wxp and participation, and your team gets to keep the objective.

    Indeed, if Anet removed the rewards while taking the structures... I would be fine as well.
    Other server is doing less ppt, and u gain more, that is a rewards as well. WvW needs less rewards, the rewards tracks are more than fine has rewards for that gamemode.
    Anet just need to introduce more 2 or 3 rewards tracks, one for disable for players who are not skirts and dont care about the reward spam, 1 to increase a bit wxp and probably rewards some extra 50 tickets (wich i forgot the name of the WvW ones for some gear).

    Meanwhile remove the nodes as well, i would love that...

  • I don't have much WvW experience, so maybe I don't get it, but why is repairing a damaged wall/gate hurting the defense? Isn't it better if they get repaired? Or is supply better spent on other purposes? When I see damaged structures in our bases and no fight is going on I usually go and repair them. Is that wrong?

  • Klipso.8653Klipso.8653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Repairing after the battle is fine, or even if you're buying time during the initial siege. The problem comes when people are throwing supply at a wall that is getting bot-trebed. That treb is nowhere close to being taken down and the bot player is just going to continuously hit the wall.

    -Balwarc [ICoa]

  • Ok I understand, thanks for clarifying!

  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭

    @Klipso.8653 said:
    Repairing after the battle is fine, or even if you're buying time during the initial siege. The problem comes when people are throwing supply at a wall that is getting bot-trebed. That treb is nowhere close to being taken down and the bot player is just going to continuously hit the wall.

    And the real issue is most comms/zergs are too lazy to try and take down the trebs - especially those hitting SM from keep, which can be removed with a quickly built ballista or two. Kill the treb, no more damage to wall, supply issue solved.

  • Repairing isn't the issue normally. Most people don't use up all the supply to repair a t3. In my experience, supply gets drained by tags porting multiple times to get +10 or siege griefer's building rams and trebuchet's.

    I don't see an issue with defender's getting participation/wxp for repairing a wall.

  • @Klipso.8653 said:
    Repairing after the battle is fine, or even if you're buying time during the initial siege. The problem comes when people are throwing supply at a wall that is getting bot-trebed. That treb is nowhere close to being taken down and the bot player is just going to continuously hit the wall.

    To be fair, even before there was participation, there have always been people who kept throwing supply at a wall, as if they could out-repair the damage from a Superior treb until the cows came home.

    It's a bigger problem now, because there's participation & a little WXP associated with it. I suspect, however, it's not as big an issue as we perceive it to be.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2018

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Klipso.8653 said:
    Repairing after the battle is fine, or even if you're buying time during the initial siege. The problem comes when people are throwing supply at a wall that is getting bot-trebed. That treb is nowhere close to being taken down and the bot player is just going to continuously hit the wall.

    To be fair, even before there was participation, there have always been people who kept throwing supply at a wall, as if they could out-repair the damage from a Superior treb until the cows came home.

    It's a bigger problem now, because there's participation & a little WXP associated with it. I suspect, however, it's not as big an issue as we perceive it to be.

    Well, when SMC (or any structure) is getting attacked and your supply is at 0, because 1 or 2 people are unnecessarily repairing outer walls for pip participation, it's problematic. 1 player alone can keep SMC at 0 supply, and that's an issue.

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Well, when SMC (or any structure) is getting attacked and your supply is at 0, because 1 or 2 people are unnecessarily repairing outer walls for pip participation, it's problematic. 1 player alone can keep SMC at 0 supply, and that's an issue.

    Right, as I said earlier, I agree that there's an issue. I'm just not convinced that (a) it's as big an issue as we perceive it to be and (b) that the proposed cure isn't worse than the disease.

    As long as there are rewards, there are always going to be some perverse incentives.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2018

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Well, when SMC (or any structure) is getting attacked and your supply is at 0, because 1 or 2 people are unnecessarily repairing outer walls for pip participation, it's problematic. 1 player alone can keep SMC at 0 supply, and that's an issue.

    Right, as I said earlier, I agree that there's an issue. I'm just not convinced that (a) it's as big an issue as we perceive it to be and (b) that the proposed cure isn't worse than the disease.

    As long as there are rewards, there are always going to be some perverse incentives.

    Would you consider losing an objective due to lack of supply to properly defend it ok?

    The cure only removes wxp and pip participation from repairing. There are still a plethora of ways to earn wxp and pip participation.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Well, when SMC (or any structure) is getting attacked and your supply is at 0, because 1 or 2 people are unnecessarily repairing outer walls for pip participation, it's problematic. 1 player alone can keep SMC at 0 supply, and that's an issue.

    Right, as I said earlier, I agree that there's an issue. I'm just not convinced that (a) it's as big an issue as we perceive it to be and (b) that the proposed cure isn't worse than the disease.

    As long as there are rewards, there are always going to be some perverse incentives.

    Would you consider losing an objective due to lack of supply to properly defend it ok?

    Of course losing an objective due to wasted supply is annoying, but so is losing an objective due to people failing to tick siege or repair the structure. People repair structures more efficiently now than before, in part because their tick/tock is preserved. People don't refresh siege because it takes time away from everything else.

    Further, it's easy to remember every case of someone pointlessly repairing a wall recently, but it's hard to know if they are doing it to refresh tick or if they simply don't understand the strategic issues involved.

    As a case in point, I was the only one inside a structure this week when the wall was about to come down. There were two enemy forces, one directly outside (without siege) and one defending the trebs. I repaired the wall, despite the ongoing damage, because I hoped our lesser forces could remove the trebs quickly, to eliminate that threat, and then return to defend the structure against the nearby force. The tower would certainly have fallen otherwise, because our defense team was too small to be effective in both locations. But clearly, anyone watching me without being aware of the enemy locations would have seen me "wasting supply."

    The point is that neither you nor I know how often people are wasting supply to preserve tick, versus wasting it due to misunderstanding strategy, versus using it tactically to buy a little more time.

    Or as I said above: I agree it's a problem. I'm not sure it's as big a problem as it appears and I am not sure that the solution is going to improve the overall situation.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Well, when SMC (or any structure) is getting attacked and your supply is at 0, because 1 or 2 people are unnecessarily repairing outer walls for pip participation, it's problematic. 1 player alone can keep SMC at 0 supply, and that's an issue.

    Right, as I said earlier, I agree that there's an issue. I'm just not convinced that (a) it's as big an issue as we perceive it to be and (b) that the proposed cure isn't worse than the disease.

    As long as there are rewards, there are always going to be some perverse incentives.

    Would you consider losing an objective due to lack of supply to properly defend it ok?

    Of course losing an objective due to wasted supply is annoying, but so is losing an objective due to people failing to tick siege or repair the structure. People repair structures more efficiently now than before, in part because their tick/tock is preserved. People don't refresh siege because it takes time away from everything else.

    Further, it's easy to remember every case of someone pointlessly repairing a wall recently, but it's hard to know if they are doing it to refresh tick or if they simply don't understand the strategic issues involved.

    As a case in point, I was the only one inside a structure this week when the wall was about to come down. There were two enemy forces, one directly outside (without siege) and one defending the trebs. I repaired the wall, despite the ongoing damage, because I hoped our lesser forces could remove the trebs quickly, to eliminate that threat, and then return to defend the structure against the nearby force. The tower would certainly have fallen otherwise, because our defense team was too small to be effective in both locations. But clearly, anyone watching me without being aware of the enemy locations would have seen me "wasting supply."

    The point is that neither you nor I know how often people are wasting supply to preserve tick, versus wasting it due to misunderstanding strategy, versus using it tactically to buy a little more time.

    Or as I said above: I agree it's a problem. I'm not sure it's as big a problem as it appears and I am not sure that the solution is going to improve the overall situation.

    I can’t even count how many times the same players have wasted supply repairing SMC outer walls getting trebbed, while you have other players trying to defend camps and escort supply dolyaks to increase SMC supply.

    1 person can single handedly drain supply from an objective, and that hurts the rest of the players on the map trying to defend a structure. And that 1 person is only making sure to keep their pip participation up for rewards, while making it harder for other players to keep that structure. That’s an issue.

    Players get participation from successfully defending a structure. Keeping the structure puts points on the board for the team. There are tons of other activities to earn wxp and participation, so it’s not like some major personal punishment, it only disincentives supply trolling.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd rather them dump supply into a wall than to give an objective with max supply.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Blodeuyn.2751Blodeuyn.2751 Member ✭✭✭

    It seems this is a SMC issue for the OP. Why change a mechanic because of SMC? As stated above, players will still drain supply for various reasons. I know that is annoying, but it doesn't justify the proposed changes.

    Blodeuyn Tylwyth
    Quaggan OP [QOP], League of Extraordinary Siegers [LEXS]

  • I think that giving players a timer that they can only take supply only every 30 second would be a good plan. Of course we still have to teach people how to defend and use supply effectively.

  • HazyDaisy.4107HazyDaisy.4107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    100 supply in a tower by myself against 20 at the gate and 10 mins claim + 3 more mins for sabatage depot. 100 supply for the enemy if capped, that's a golem!

    Meh, build a treb quickly, blow the supply! Sometimes supply trolling is useful. Don't suggest a way to fix one problem that creates another one in its place.

    [HaHa] Hazardous Hallucination - Sorrows Furnace

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HazyDaisy.4107 said:
    100 supply in a tower by myself against 20 at the gate and 10 mins claim + 3 more mins for sabatage depot. 100 supply for the enemy if capped, that's a golem!

    Meh, build a treb quickly, blow the supply! Sometimes supply trolling is useful. Don't suggest a way to fix one problem that creates another one in its place.

    I’m talking about a very specific scenario, that’s being abused for pip participation, that’s not “useful”. Thanks for the input though.

  • HazyDaisy.4107HazyDaisy.4107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @HazyDaisy.4107 said:
    100 supply in a tower by myself against 20 at the gate and 10 mins claim + 3 more mins for sabatage depot. 100 supply for the enemy if capped, that's a golem!

    Meh, build a treb quickly, blow the supply! Sometimes supply trolling is useful. Don't suggest a way to fix one problem that creates another one in its place.

    I’m talking about a very specific scenario, that’s being abused for pip participation, that’s not “useful”. Thanks for the input though.

    Oh you're welcome, I was responding to the guy above me though that suggested 30 sec cool down on supply acquisition.

    [HaHa] Hazardous Hallucination - Sorrows Furnace

  • @Blodeuyn.2751 said:
    It seems this is a SMC issue for the OP. Why change a mechanic because of SMC? As stated above, players will still drain supply for various reasons. I know that is annoying, but it doesn't justify the proposed changes.

    This is very true.

  • You have the trebbers who are getting pips everytime they hit the wall, and the wall repairers who get pips everytime they repair. It's a good symbiotic relationship.

    "Wait a minute, you are as great a wvw player as has ever been, owning bloodlust with impunity." - Mykhul

  • No, we need this for all kinds of things. If you take this away people would not repair a wall or gate when actually needed. It would be bad MMKAY

  • Vaeo.4097Vaeo.4097 Member ✭✭

    Sounds like the real problem is: SMC could be bombarded from Keep. Or do you see other scenarios when reparing wall is incorrect or can be fullfilled constantly?

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Can you prove that the supply was wasted to gain specifically wxp and/or pips. Can you prove or disprove that the player using supplies for gate/wall repair was doing it out of a strategic/tactical advantage or obligation to the team?

    I used to have this argument in year 1 for WvW with several commanders and/or other scouts at garrison/tower locations. They wanted me to run all the way to the camp and bring supplies back to the garrison for repairs on gates/walls. Doing it solo, to fully repair multiple breaches took 4-6 hours game time, to fully repair the wall. Whereas if you took supplies direct from the garrison, the walls/gates would have been fully repaired within 2-10 minutes. During those 4-6 hours, the walls were still easy to breach and quickly get back in by enemy standards.

    I do believe repairing a wall that's still being hit by enemy siege is unsound, and a waste of good supplies.

    However if the keep/garrison/tower isn't under siege fire, yah, i'd argue with quick repair, or 4-6 hours of game time wasted with no help running supplies from a camp. Which I did for 2 years, and it wasn't worth my time ever again.

  • Trajan.4953Trajan.4953 Member ✭✭✭

    Or people could stop worrying about supply keeps and towers and come out and fight.

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the WXP and participation is fine to promote roamers to repair your teams' structures. It is a boring task otherwise.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What about people that run supply from camps? The suggestion is hurting these people.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I'd rather them dump supply into a wall than to give an objective with max supply.

    Sabotage Depot upgrade would like to say hello.

    Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
    Big Babou, Ranger for life.

  • Punishing everyone to stop a perceived bad behavior does not work. Trolls will still troll; their aim to is spread chaos, not to get participation.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2018

    The problem with this solution is that it is black and white while individual decisions are situational. Most people that repair SMC walls simply don't know any better and that is more of the fault of the communication rather some so called "malicious" attempt to farm pips, when it is so easy to get participation in these cases anyways just by tagging randoms. As it turns out, 50 people staring at 50 people watching treb shots fly around is not exactly entertaining gameplay. And honestly, SMC is really one of the few cases where it is a thing due to how easy it is to treb outer.

    Furthermore, there are many times where you may realize the structure is lost, especially if it's t0/t1 and the only thing you can do is to delay so you hold the thing for more ticks + use supply that will be lost anyways. And if you're regularly t3'ing SMC, I think there's other problems.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @YTKafka.4681 said:
    I think that giving players a timer that they can only take supply only every 30 second would be a good plan. Of course we still have to teach people how to defend and use supply effectively.

    Then RIP those who legit solo defend a tower. It would take 1 - 1.5 mins to put up even an AC, which the wall/gate could be open at that point. This imo is a really horrible idea.

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