Raid Testing - Condi Mes vs Condi Mirage Damage Outputs

Mirage rotations could be improved purely for benchmarking purposes, managing dodge, Jaunt, Crystal Sands, and Axes of Symmetry is annoying as the overlap is constant and hurts your Ambush damage, as well as lowers overall DPS if done at the wrong time in the auto chain. As of a golem testing, Mirage hits 4k higher than Condi Mesmer. Numbers are lower than QT Benchmarks due to Sigil of Earth vs Sigil of Geomancy (note that this will end up making the damage difference lower as Condi Mesmer tests have (/had) higher Condition Duration and used a single piece of Sinister. In QT tests, the difference is 4% Condition Duration (as opposed to the 12% in my lazy tests).

Some numbers:Condi Duration (wearing full Viper + Rare Veggie + Toxic Focus + Sigil of Malice + Signet of Midnight) is at 68.59%.With Mirage, that becomes 88.59%.With Core Mesmer, that becomes 68.59-102.59% (average 70.59-92.59%).

No Food/Enhance Core Mes: https://dps.report/uJyU-20170922-093048_golem 21,902No Food/Enhance Mirage: https://dps.report/Dmk2-20170922-094013_golem 25,032Food/Enhance Core Mes: https://dps.report/Dmk2-20170922-094013_golem 23,594Food/Enhance Mirage: https://dps.report/O5GP-20170922-094333_golem 28,069

While the Mirage outperforms Condi Mesmer, it also has a few faults:Vigor Reliance, No/Low Dodges, Melee

What does this mean?Vigor Reliance: Most fights you will not have 100% Vigor uptime. If your group runs a silly Deadeye build I made, you can have 100% Vigor if you're in their subgroup. Not having 100% Vigor uptime lowers your damage output pretty heftily as you lose out on ~8% Condition Damage output, dropping your total damage by about 5-6%.No/Low Dodges: To maintain higher DPS, it involves dodging to ensure you stay below max Endurance (to avoid waste). This means if you end up requiring a Dodge, you may not have it (yes you still have one dodge, but if you've ever raided, have you ever dodged twice in a row?). This can be extremely detrimental because downed DPS is significantly lower (although you still have Duelists) and dead DPS is 0.Melee: What this means is that you lose the advantage of Core Mesmer (Scepter). Yes, you can run Mirage with a Scepter, but then you don't get the damage bonus of Sand Shards or the extra Ambush from Crystal Sands. It also means you are now competing with the much harder hitting Power Mesmer. Even if you clean up the rotation to achieve higher damage than a Power Mesmer, you're putting in a lot more effort for maybe 1-2k more DPS while also putting yourself in more danger (Axes of Symmetry may put you into a bad place and it has a long animation). YMMV in actual raids, but I doubt you'll be having higher DPS unless everything runs smoother than a baby's bottom.

If you have optimizations or better rotations/outputs, please post them here.

Interesting. I need to test a lot of things but looking the new specializations plus the result of the August patch... I still see raids asking only for chronos. Mirage doesn't change the choice in the raid composition.

Axe 2 could add dps as a whirl finisher + axe trait, but overwrites Phantasms. Perhaps the spec needs a boost to a particular condition the same as Ranger, Thief and Guardian have.

Also, would Jaunt ever be carried? I guess you're assuming that Firebrand or Chrono carries your quickness uptime for you. Even then, you probably take Humility for breakbar.

Just did some of my own testing. Keeping 3 phantasms up is still the best way to do dps. I tried sustaining clones with infinite horizon, sustaining clones with sand shards, shattering clones with infinite horizon, shattering clones with sand shards, etc. All of them came out weaker than simply using auto in melee range with 3 duelists up. Infinite horizon simply cannot buff clones enough to make them competitive.

Granted, the clone spam builds can do quite a bit more AoE damage, which was a weakness of the condi mesmer beforehand. But otherwise, this is a strictly DPS spec that has poor DPS.

Yep, my rotation was 3 Duelists -> Spam Torch4, Axe3, Crystal Sand, Jaunt, and Dodge off CD. Didn't touch Axe2 (which would be a huge DPS increase with most fields) because it's also a huge DPS loss due to the clone.

I'm not sure what build you're using, but you should be able to hit atleast 29k using http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAna3fnsIC1LjNoBWoBMMjlcjqMAStWzf9j/7H9HWicA-jRSFQBjUJYDVulgnAgS2fgYKJAwJAIAHEg2pfofq/QKgFVWB-e. It's the old cmesmer rotation but spamming jaunt and mirage cloak.

They don't listen. If phantasms were a one time strike at 8 sec cd that despawned but hit harder to compensate, we could freely use clones and shatters.

But they don't want us using our class mechanics and keep clones obsolete in PvE so long as they compete with illusion slots with phantasms.

They design this class for PvP and PvP only. That much is obvious. 5 years and we still can't use our core class mechanic of shatters in PvE. Chronomancer's Continuum split is the single exception, and part of that is due to chronophantasma as well.

Cry of Frustration is a pitiful 2 stacks of confusion per clone. Why? Should be our buffed up condition equivalent shatter. Or even better, merge those conditions with mindwrack so mindwrcak is good for both condi and power, and make cry of frustration a utility shatter that causes aoe weakness and cripple and cleanses boons on you and nearby allies per clone shattered.

Make the damn shatters useful and usable by either making them not shatter phantasms in PvE or retooling phantasms so they're a one hit strike so only clones take up the illusion slots.

Riddle of Sands should not require shatter to trigger off ambush.

Nomad's Endurance gives condi damage increase on mirage cloak instead of vigor.

Speed of Sands triggers vigor.

Mirrored Axes increases the damage of torment and confusion by 20%

Crystal Sands apply 6 stacks of torment and bleeding on top of the confusion in PvE.

Jaunt range increased to 600 and applies 3 stacks of torment and bleed as well.

Voila, Mirage is not garbage in PvE anymore.

this is a strictly DPS spec that has poor DPS.

And that's that. Dead on arrival, just as predicted.

And here are my findings:

No food, realistic buffs, geomancy/earth sigils, default heal and utilities (full signets+feedback). Full viper with zerker runes except one sinister armor piece.

Illu/Duel/Chaos (sc+t/p)22,869

Illu/Duel/Mirage (sc+p/t)23,39324,099 (using ambush whenever possible)

Illu/Duel/Mirage (sc+p / axe+t)24,985 (using ambush on scepter)

Illu/Duel/Mirage (axe+p/t)26,343 (using ambush)

These numbers could be higher with false oasis heal, the crystal sand utility, and jaunt. And also with a better rotation I suppose. I did not use Axe 3.

You used axe 2?

@Abelisk.4527 said:You used axe 2?

I don't think anyone used Axe2 in their strongest tests. Also Axe2 damage will be lower on a golem than in an actual fight due to whirl damage.

Lmao eve Power Chrono has more DPS

@Refia Montes.3205 said:Lmao eve Power Chrono has more DPS

I'm getting about the same numbers for condi axe mirage, and power base mes. and both of those are higher than power chrono for me. I don't use realistic buffs since i'm not sure which of the buffs would be to use, so I just use all buffs for each test. I get 32k+ for condi axe mirage, and base power mes.

I have to test in an actual raid. I wanna see if it's better to keep 2 duelists out and use axe 2 on cd in a raid to see if the whirl finishers does more damage than a duelist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-5S14W2XyM

Firebrand does well over 10k more DPS while providing utility to the group and cleave/aoe worth a damn to boot without the massive ramp up.

These developers truly outdid themselves this expansion in PvE balance neglect. But then again, that would be assuming they even care to balance for PvE since their design is as usual PvP centered.

Confusion on mesmer hits for a pittance since we don't get any trait increasing its damage like revenant with torment, and for the "confusing" spec of mirage we have abysmal access to confusion application anyways.

5 years and they still have not balance condi specs for those classes who have access to burning and those who don't.

@Zenith.7301 said:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-5S14W2XyM

Firebrand does well over 10k more DPS while providing utility to the group and cleave/aoe worth a kitten to boot without the massive ramp up.

These developers truly outdid themselves this expansion in PvE balance neglect. But then again, that would be assuming they even care to balance for PvE since their design is as usual PvP centered.

Confusion on mesmer hits for a pittance since we don't get any trait increasing its damage like revenant with torment, and for the "confusing" spec of mirage we have abysmal access to confusion application anyways.

5 years and they still have not balance condi specs for those classes who have access to burning and those who don't.

Dude, r u on a crusade against FB? Sure FB has utility but U can't do any dmg with tome of courage and resolve, qT did not even touch those tomes during the playtest. The only utility skill that qT used was the mantra of potency which is pretty weaksauce without boon duration stats, qT could have easily swapped it out for some CC and it wouldn't even hurt the FB dps.

@Unknown.3976 said:Dude, r u on a crusade against FB? Sure FB has utility but U can't do any dmg with tome of courage and resolve, qT did not even touch those tomes during the playtest. The only utility skill that qT used was the mantra of potency which is pretty weaksauce without boon duration stats, qT could have easily swapped it out for some CC and it wouldn't even hurt the FB dps.

I'm sorry, I don't get your point. He was saying that FB is stronger than Mirage in tons of aspects.

Also, DH (and core Guard) doesn't get damage with Courage/Resolve, so I don't see your point.

@Unknown.3976 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-5S14W2XyM

Firebrand does well over 10k more DPS while providing utility to the group and cleave/aoe worth a kitten to boot without the massive ramp up.

These developers truly outdid themselves this expansion in PvE balance neglect. But then again, that would be assuming they even care to balance for PvE since their design is as usual PvP centered.

Confusion on mesmer hits for a pittance since we don't get any trait increasing its damage like revenant with torment, and for the "confusing" spec of mirage we have abysmal access to confusion application anyways.

5 years and they still have not balance condi specs for those classes who have access to burning and those who don't.

No, I'm maining FB because it's obvious to everyone these developers don't give a flying damn about PvE class balance, so rather than wait for months if not years for it to dawn of them that people want PvE balance for specs, I'll just play a functional Firebrand instead of a defective Mirage with way less damage and no utility whatsoever.

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Unknown.3976 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-5S14W2XyM

Firebrand does well over 10k more DPS while providing utility to the group and cleave/aoe worth a kitten to boot without the massive ramp up.

These developers truly outdid themselves this expansion in PvE balance neglect. But then again, that would be assuming they even care to balance for PvE since their design is as usual PvP centered.

Confusion on mesmer hits for a pittance since we don't get any trait increasing its damage like revenant with torment, and for the "confusing" spec of mirage we have abysmal access to confusion application anyways.

5 years and they still have not balance condi specs for those classes who have access to burning and those who don't.

I concur with u that Mirage is fundamentally broken, we suspected it so during the preview, now that the PoF is out, our worst fears are confirmed. It will take a long while for Anet to fix mirage, assuming if it ever gets fixed. It's never a great idea to put all of one's eggs into a single basket, one should experience all of the diversity that PoF has to offer, Holosmith is pretty cool as well.

Its worth stating that weaver and fb are supposedly bugged with the numbers they can pull off.

@zealex.9410 said:Its worth stating that weaver and fb are supposedly bugged with the numbers they can pull off.

Also FB's quickness is bugged (?) since they can ignore a 5s ICD with multiple stacks at once hence why they can pull off perma quickness with 1 ability.

@zealex.9410 said:Its worth stating that weaver and fb are supposedly bugged with the numbers they can pull off.

It's not a bug. Nothing about weaver is bugged. Weaver gained a 7% damage increase with swiftness up, increased damage against weakened enemies, 120 power from swapping to fire, and 14% ferocity from power. On top of their already 15% damage modifier from fire, and another 20% on mobs under 50% health from air.

It's a whole heap of damage modifiers they got, and staff dual skills unlike sword ones which are garbage, are pretty damn strong.

Meanwhile mirage has diddly squat for damage modifiers, much like necromancer. You get150 condi damage for 3 illusions out, 20% condi duration from mirage GM, and 150 condi damage when vigor is sometimes up. That's it. On a spec with low base condi application and the weakest condi selection with no access to burning and zero utility.

But hey, we have useless clones and shatters in PvE, which must be by Robert Gee's estimation just enough (it isn't, just like greatsword reaper hasn't for the past 3 years). But whatever, these people will take 6 months to roll out marginal number tweaks to marginal traits nobody uses and a pitiful 10% buff to power damage of a condi weapon and call it their balance patch despite the fact it's a joke to everybody else.

If they don't want to balance classes for PvE or have the time for it, then they should find somebody who wants to and can in their company.

@Zenith.7301 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Its worth stating that weaver and fb are supposedly bugged with the numbers they can pull off.

That works out to be 10% additional crit damage above and beyond what they normally would get from the trait. That would take the 50k DPS they are doing at the moment down to about 48k DPS. That is still way too much damage, but it closes the gap somewhat. The same bug is working for the Power->Condi trait for guardian as well. That probably adds about 1500 DPS to the firebrand parses that you're seeing also.

I'm not to concerned about balance numbers 3 days into an expansion. Stuff will get rebalanced and when that happens, it will hurt even more for the classes that get tuned down.

That said, I can play what ever class I want (since I have multiple of each and enough ascended coming out of my ... to gear however I want). Did fireup my Firebrand after finishing the story on Mirage. The raid potential with that burning damage was obvious from the first minute. The spvp forums are also on fire about the burnburst. Needless to say, FB will get rebalanced.

Weaver, well what do you expect if all you do is add a ton of +damage% traits. Will also get toned down.

At least the fear of some of the older elite specs getting nerfed into oblivion is currently off the table I guess.

Raids on monday should be fun with 4 weavers.

@Unknown.3976 said:I concur with u that Mirage is fundamentally broken, we suspected it so during the preview, now that the PoF is out, our worst fears are confirmed. It will take a long while for Anet to fix mirage, assuming if it ever gets fixed. It's never a great idea to put all of one's eggs into a single basket, one should experience all of the diversity that PoF has to offer, Holosmith is pretty cool as well.

Probably never. They do too few balance patches and the ones which do happen do too little (overall) to fix such underlying issues.

I mean, how often have they ripped out nonworking skills / skill types? It happened, but frankly it's close to never. Yet in most MMOs, expansions completely re-shuffle classes to fix deep underlying issues. In GW2, they staple another "class" with even more flaws on top of all existent things. :pensive:

It took them two years to get Mirage to where it currently is and that is with these elite specs being the main focus of their work. Do you really think Mirage will get fixed before the next expansion?