Is the Deep Sea Dragon already dead?

Ive been doing a bit of research and recently I noticed a few odd things with how the elder dragons are portrayed. Now this is all speculation so it could be totally wrong but after doing some research im gonna conclude that each elder dragon has its own assigned territory. However, say one elder dragon dies and another takes its power, that elder dragon could take the other elder dragons land. How much land an elder dragon has claimed plays into its size. I got this idea first from zhaitan. Hes about the size of 3 tequetls. Zhaitan had control or orr and that was about it. This is why i think he was so small. However, mordremoth had consumed zhaitans territory and had maguumas territory. This is why he was so large. Kralkatorich is giant though. Kralkatoriks heads alone is the size of about 3 shatterers or 1 zhaitan. He had claimed all other territorys. The deep sea dragon has about 3 times the size of terria in land since he owns the unending ocean. This in mind, how is it that he hasnt awakened. We havent seen any of his minions yet either. If hes 3 times the size of kralkatorik and never awakened i get the feeling he could possibly be dead. It may also explain why we know so little about him.

Zhaitan is bigger than 3 Teqs IMO - check wiki diagrams.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zhaitan

DSD just hasn't been confirmed to be awakened(awoken?) - just rumors of his actions suggest he could be. Def not dead, that would be both sad and also inexplicable (did the Canthans get him?).

@"MarshallLaw.9260" said:Zhaitan is bigger than 3 Teqs IMO - check wiki diagrams.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zhaitan

DSD just hasn't been confirmed to be awakened(awoken?) - just rumors of his actions suggest he could be. Def not dead, that would be both sad and also inexplicable (did the Canthans get him?).

So it could be that technology doesnt exist right now that can detect his awakening? Makes sense since hes sleeping at the deepest part of the unending ocean.

@"WillS.1367" said:We havent seen any of his minions yet either.

Could the Karka be his minions? That's what this tweet by that_shaman made me wonder:https://twitter.com/that_shaman/status/972962900510900230

@Dragana.1497 said:

@"WillS.1367" said:We havent seen any of his minions yet either.

The idea's been more that the karka are one of the creatures that the DSD has displaced- sort of like how Jormag drove the norn south, or Primordus pushed the asura, skritt, oozes and skelk to the surface.

To the OP: we know that the DSD has been awake for some time. If you believe the vision we had in S2, Selbbub was actually the second one up, right after Primordus. It's the reason that the krait are living in shipwreck towers along the coast now, and why the krait drove the quaggan inland. A couple largos also mention a darkness in the depths that their people are fighting, and we know the Inquest captured one of Bubbles' minions at one point.

The thinking for why we players haven't seen any is simply that the dragon is busy elsewhere. As you observed, it's a big ocean, and there are other lands it borders on. The DSD might simply not have had any reason to come after Tyria/Elona yet.

@WillS.1367 said:Zhaitan had control or orr and that was about it.

Zhaitan's reach went along the shorelines of the Sea of Sorrows, the Ring of Fire islands, and even northern Elona. A bit more than "just Orr".

@WillS.1367 said:However, mordremoth had consumed zhaitans territory and had maguumas territory. This is why he was so large.

I presume you mean "Zhaitan's sphere", though that is still speculative by Taimi and given this guy pretty unlikely all things considered. Zhaitan's magic and Mordremoth's seem to be counteractive to each other similarly as Jormag's and Primordus' (if this trend continues, Kralkatorrik's and the DSD's will be counteractive).

Mordremoth was also not all that large. Mordremoth is fairly close to Zhaitan's size as seen in this comparison between the two; Mordremoth is certainly longer, though. [Here is one between the four Elder Dragons,]https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/2/23/Elder_Dragons_size_comparison.png) including Zhaitan's original model that Anet deemed was too big to fight, ironically given Kralkatorrik's and Primordus' sizes, and should be used to reflect his true size in lore IMHO. The dot in the center is Vlast, for comparison sake.

Mordremoth was just waking up, so he was only just taking territory. Though like every Elder Dragon, he took a swath of territory fairly fast.

@WillS.1367 said:Kralkatorich is giant though. Kralkatoriks heads alone is the size of about 3 shatterers or 1 zhaitan. He had claimed all other territorys.

Not sure what you're saying here. Kralkatorrik's territory is honestly fairly small prior to Path of Fire, just long and thing. And his immediate "lair" is smaller than any other Elder Dragon.

@WillS.1367 said:The deep sea dragon has about 3 times the size of terria in land since he owns the unending ocean. This in mind, how is it that he hasnt awakened. We havent seen any of his minions yet either. If hes 3 times the size of kralkatorik and never awakened i get the feeling he could possibly be dead. It may also explain why we know so little about him.

Based on what we know, the DSD woke up 200 years ago (around the same time as Primordus' delayed awakening), but is very, very far away - far enough away that Central Tyria only began to feel his influence 50 years ago, in the form of various races from the oceanic depths fleeing his slow spread.

Currently, the largos have been fighting him. It should have been awake as of the game's release. But like Jormag, it woke up outside of Central Tyria lands; unlike Jormag, it didn't pull a full out migration.

@Dragana.1497 said:

@WillS.1367 said:We havent seen any of his minions yet either.

Funny thing but that_shaman would be wrong about the karka always facing the Unending Ocean, since the Ember Bay karka face away from the Unending Ocean.

Besides that, Matthew Medina indirectly stated ages ago that the karka was fleeing the deep sea dragon's influences. What he said was, more or less, that they avoided Orr when they arrived on Southsun Cove for the same reason they arrived on the shores at all. Which would basically mean "avoiding dragon minions".

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Funny thing but that_shaman would be wrong about the karka always facing the Unending Ocean, since the Ember Bay karka face away from the Unending Ocean.I am fairly certain he was referring to the general channel of water in general, since Ember Bay isn't in the Sea of Sorrows.

The ones in Ember bay are on the right hand side of the map, the ones in Sandsweapt Cove are on the left, keeping in line with reaching the shores as part of some larger movement, that eventually leads to Southsun.

Maybe the water disrupt magic? I mean the water doesn't conduct ley line energy released from the dragons?

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Funny thing but that_shaman would be wrong about the karka always facing the Unending Ocean, since the Ember Bay karka face

away

from the Unending Ocean.I am fairly certain he was referring to the general channel of water in general, since Ember Bay isn't in the Sea of Sorrows.

Right, and what I was saying is that by that logic, they should have been on southern / southwestern / western Ember Bay (depending on which direction from the Unending Ocean they came from), unless they arched around the shoreline, almost turning backwards by the end of it, when making landfall. Not eastern Ember Bay.

Though all that said, in Sandswpt Isles, the karka there are likely brought by the Inquest and not migratory - the lack of any karka hive structures and the fact we released karka from their Sigma lab, and the presence of other non-native inhabitants who were similarly found in the labs, all imply such.

I wonder why they showed DSD in Glint's Legacy vision in A Way Forward. Could he be an ally to build a better future on Tyria? Could he be our ally?

Could he possibly be another Glint? Purified by Forgotten's power?

All the dragons send their minions to gather as much power as possible. But what we heard of Bubbles is that he expels wicked creatures from his land- like karkas.

A peaceful elder dragon? Maybe at least neutral?

@Arden.7480 said:I wonder why they showed DSD in Glint's Legacy vision in A Way Forward. Could he be an ally to build a better future on Tyria? Could he be our ally?

Could he possibly be another Glint? Purified by Forgotten's power?

All the dragons send their minions to gather as much power as possible. But what we heard of Bubbles is that he expels wicked creatures from his land- like karkas.

A peaceful elder dragon? Maybe at least neutral?

Whilst i understand why people believe it, we do not know that was the DSD in the vision. I find it very hard to believe Anet have gone to lengths to keep so much of that creature and its influences a mystery, only to throw a glimpse in randomly like that.

If im wrong, im wrong, but we cant use that image as evidence towards anything given we dont know what it represented

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Right, and what I was saying is that by that logic, they should have been on southern / southwestern / western Ember Bay (depending on which direction from the Unending Ocean they came from), unless they arched around the shoreline, almost turning backwards by the end of it, when making landfall. Not eastern Ember Bay.Nope, follow the path

By that route, we should see them - as well as krait and quaggan all over Istan too. We don't. We don't even see quaggan or krait in Dajkah, furthering the notion that the very small amount of hive-less karka there didn't migrate there.

This path is more likely given all our known lore:

Reasons: Here

TL;DR, all lore indicates that the quaggan, krait, karka, and ultimately the DSD originate from west of the Battle Isles.

I'll also note that I'm not saying that it is outright strange that the karka are on only the eastern end of Ember Bay - the rest of the island is probably too volcanic or too inhabited (by saurians) for them to have settled, plus the shoal-like environment would be better fitting for the aquatic species than Osprey Pillars.

They (karka, quaggan, and krait) would have headed northeast until they hit the Tarnished Coast, and found themselves "trapped" in the Sea of Sorrows when they ketp going east. If they were heading pure north, then Elona and Orr would have shifted their direction northwest, making it unlikely they'd head into the Sea of Sorrows; while if they were going northwest, they'd make landfall at Kourna and Istan, perhaps never even bothering to reach Central Tyria but if they did, again the presence of Orr would likely keep them from bending around.

However, east of Ember Bay still is not facing Unending Ocean, which is south and west of the Ring of Fire Islands, which is why I commented that that_shaman was wrong in his statement. East of Ember Bay is Malchor's Strait, and the Sea of Sorrows.

You're beginning a huge ass argument over a side comment that has literally no reason to argue over.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:You're beginning a huge kitten argument over a side comment that has literally no reason to argue over.The only one who is beginning an argument is you, over something you insist everyone else has to be wrong about, because you have a different idea of the Kraka's migration pattern that is fundamentally discounted by the game itself.

TL;DR, all lore indicates that the quaggan, krait, karka, and ultimately the DSD originate from west of the Battle Isles.Yes and?

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:The only one who is beginning an argument is you, over something you insist everyone else has to be wrong about, because you have a different idea of the Kraka's migration pattern that is fundamentally discounted by the game itself.

"East of Ember Bay is the Unending Ocean" is a false statement, no matter how you argue it. I wasn't even arguing about anything there anyways.

You've been taking it to argue that the karka have migrated north along the Elonian coast (apparently). Which is entirely out of context of what I was talking about.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Yes and?

I "love" how you ignore every other comment of my post just to promote your view as the sole right one. Which, incidentally, is what you've been doing whenever we get into the topic of Season 4's direction.

The irony is that people often claim that about me.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:"East of Ember Bay is the Unending Ocean" is a false statement, no matter how you argue it. I wasn't even arguing about anything there anyways.Not really, the body of water that surrounds them isn't the Sea of Sorrows, and it isn't Melchor's Straight, it is the unending Ocean, so saying they are in it is correct until that specific body of water between the RoF and Orr is given a name.You've been taking it to argue that the karka have migrated north along the Elonian coastUhh no, I made no mention of them being along the Elonian coast at all, besides their singular appearance in Sandsweapt Isles.I "love" how you ignore every other comment of my postI didn't ignore any of it, i just reduced what I was quoting down to a singular phrase in order to prevent there being massive quote walls.

I can only presume you referring to your comments on the Krait and Quaggans migration patterns. The problem with that is that what you say doesn't make any sense. If the Krait and Quaggan lived west of the Battle Isles, and fled the dragon, they would have gone northeast(as they clearly did), and northeast from the battle isles is Orr, which they would have avoided due to more dragon minions, and come up into the Sea of Sorrows following the deep trench gap between the Ring of Fire and Orr, and eventually landing in the Sea of Sorrows and the Tarnished Coast. They would have gone that way due to staying as close to their natural environment, the deep trenches, as long as possible, rather then prematurely going into higher waters between the Ring of Fire Islands, which would have been still controlled by Zhaitan's undead navy, when they could still be in deeper waters between the RoF and Orr, and avoid Zhaitan's forces easier.

Much of what the rest of what you said seems like you got your directions all backwards. Elona is to the EAST of the Krait and Quaggan homelands, going Northwest would have taken them away from it, rather then having them land in Istan or Kourna as you said it would have. And if they had gone pure north, they wouldn't have come close to either of them at all, so I am not sure where you got the idea that if they went pure north

The irony is that people often claim that about me.Well, you literally just did it so...

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:"East of Ember Bay is the Unending Ocean" is a false statement, no matter how you argue it. I wasn't even arguing about anything there anyways.Not really, the body of water that surrounds them isn't the Sea of Sorrows, and it isn't Melchor's Straight, it is the unending Ocean, so saying they are in it is correct until that specific body of water between the RoF and Orr is given a name.

I'm going to ignore the rest because I'm tired of these arguments with you, and just correct you here:

Ships with black sails, built from seized corsair vessels, sail along the Strait of Malchor, west of Orr.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Orr

The Strait of Malchor is (also) west of Orr. I.e., between Orr and the Ring of Fire islands.

@WillS.1367 said:Ive been doing a bit of research and recently I noticed a few odd things with how the elder dragons are portrayed. Now this is all speculation so it could be totally wrong but after doing some research im gonna conclude that each elder dragon has its own assigned territory. However, say one elder dragon dies and another takes its power, that elder dragon could take the other elder dragons land. How much land an elder dragon has claimed plays into its size. I got this idea first from zhaitan. Hes about the size of 3 tequetls. Zhaitan had control or orr and that was about it. This is why i think he was so small. However, mordremoth had consumed zhaitans territory and had maguumas territory. This is why he was so large. Kralkatorich is giant though. Kralkatoriks heads alone is the size of about 3 shatterers or 1 zhaitan. He had claimed all other territorys. The deep sea dragon has about 3 times the size of terria in land since he owns the unending ocean. This in mind, how is it that he hasnt awakened. We havent seen any of his minions yet either. If hes 3 times the size of kralkatorik and never awakened i get the feeling he could possibly be dead. It may also explain why we know so little about him.

I would take the size of Zhaitan with a grain of salt, if you take a look at the original concept on wiki, he was intended to be much bigger in size; he got down sized probably because of the technology limitation and the business decision 6 years ago, anet wanted GW2 to be able to run on crappy laptops.

Elder dragons dont consume each other, in the lore it had stated that elder dragons actually avoid all out war with each other; when an elder dragon dies, it becomes free flow magic for anyone to consume.

not sure if they really have a concept of territory, it's just the resting place where they last consumed enough magic, and their minions will rush to places fill with magictake for example Primodus, its last awakening in GW:EoTN (in technical term is pre-awakening, his awakening was delayed to what we see in gw2), his awakening was felt across the entire Tyria continents, his champion the Great Destroyer was at Shiverpeak, which by your term is Jormag's territory; during this time's awakening, his other champion was at Mt Maelstrom, which anet classified as Magumma, and we saw Primodus head in the volcano inside Draconis Mons, a Ring of Fire zone; if you really want to link territory size to the size of an elder dragon, Primodus would essentially the biggest, because he has 'control' of the entire planet underneath the surface, but that was not what we've seen in DM; by contrast, the true form of Mordremoth was tiny

so size of elder dragon, size and area of territories have no relevance to each other

What's strange is all the dragons are close in central tyria, and just the DSD so far.

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:What's strange is all the dragons are close in central tyria, and just the DSD so far.

Well, Jormag woke up far away and moved south into Central Tyria, and given the progress of the fleeing aquatic species, the DSD is slowly making his way to Central Tyria too.

Given how much magical stuff happened there, from the Bloodstones to the gods, it's not too surprising there'd be more remnant magic there than elsewhere.

That said, I rather do wish they had kept it to Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik as the "local Elder Dragons" personally.

@crepuscular.9047 said:

I would take the size of Zhaitan with a grain of salt, if you take a look at the original concept on wiki, he was intended to be much bigger in size; he got down sized probably because of the technology limitation and the business decision 6 years ago, anet wanted GW2 to be able to run on crappy laptops.

I can't cite this, so move your grain of salt to what I'm about to say, but from what I've heard Zhaitan got shrunk for story reasons. We know it wasn't a technology limitation, because the larger model was at one point produced, and I don't think it'd have been a performance limitation either- at the distances we fight Zhaitan, they could've gotten away with a less detailed model. What I've heard is that the original simply came across as too large to fight, and they wanted to reduce the size to something that'd seem feasible to take down with an (admittedly huge) cannon.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:What's strange is all the dragons are close in central tyria, and just the DSD so far.Not really. The dragons consume all, or at least most, the magic of the world before going back to sleep. It makes sense that as they drain the world, there would be one spot left, and all of them would converge on that one spot to eat the last of it.

I would imagine they all start off relatively close to each other every cycle, and end up moving further away, as they consume all the magic around them, and then start moving close back together as they close in on the final spot.

I dunno, even from how we took Zhaitan down he seemed to be the weakest if the elder dragons. None of the others are vulnerable to conventional weapons as far as we know. I think the relationship is size = power of dragon = how much territory they can hold.

@Dragana.1497 said:

@"WillS.1367" said:We havent seen any of his minions yet either.

i find the krait to be the more likely candidate

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:I dunno, even from how we took Zhaitan down he seemed to be the weakest if the elder dragons. None of the others are vulnerable to conventional weapons as far as we know. I think the relationship is size = power of dragon = how much territory they can hold.

Zhaitan wasn't really weak to conventional weapons. The weapons we used were based off of both Kudu's research (which in turn was based off of Snaff's) on Elder Dragon magics, as well as Gorr's research which utilized the dragon corruption process, using the same process on risen/Zhaitan, to poison the magic to them.

We basically starved Zhaitan, then force fed him magical cyanide.