Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 I don't get why S/F weaver got nerfed hard and that no skill build is still rampant ?And why do you even match 2 scourges and 2 condi thieves in a same team ? I mean since classes aren't balanced with each others , you should really put more restrictive rules in your matchmaking... such as amulet used by each teammates. Cause 4 condies in a same team is really aids (not funny if censored) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon.8294 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 I think condi thieves arnt that bad, the only real problem I have with them is sword 2. Not having to commit to a fight is pretty obnoxious. But thats not a condi thief problem, and i dont think being obnoxious justifies a nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.4527 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Nah they're in an okay spot. They get shut down quite easily IMO since they don't take Acrobatics line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Ruh-roh. Another nerf thief thread.C'mon boys lets get this one rolling full steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elxdark.9702 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 nerf? remove it, braindead build carrying garbage players by pressing 2 buttons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I knew this old S/D Condi will be back in usage the second I saw the Sword and Dagger nerfs.Hoped the day would never come though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted May 17, 2018 Author Share Posted May 17, 2018 Well I got pretty salty back then (yesterday) but being matched against 2 condi thieves + 1 scourges +1 mesmer is pretty ... laughable And 2 condi thieves jumping on you at the same isn't something you can deal with unless you have full cleansing team (firebrand, necro , tempest, ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Elxdark.9702 said:nerf? remove it, braindead build carrying garbage players by pressing 2 buttonsYou know it only works against garbage players, too, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Airdive.2613 said:@"Elxdark.9702" said:nerf? remove it, braindead build carrying garbage players by pressing 2 buttonsYou know it only works against garbage players, too, right?Read: "l2p" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aktium.9506 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Nah. It can stay. Out of the usual power S/D and power D/P daredevil builds and I guess Deadeye too I think it's the easiest to deal with. Like, you can actually hit it and kill it without having teleports and leaps to chase with. It also seems to do pretty well against chronocancer so that's a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 1 thing to note is that a properly build condi Daredevil has little mobility. In a fight, steal is their main mobility go to. If they swap to sb mid fight, you have 10 sec of weak condis to get em before they swap again.While some may find it not fun to fight against, its a l2f (learn to fight) issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falan.1839 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 How to counter this build as SD Prot Engi:https://clips.twitch.tv/ObliviousArborealLouseCmonBruh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.3620 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Elxdark.9702 said:nerf? remove it, braindead build carrying garbage players by pressing 2 buttonslol, they will just go vault spammer like you and press 3 buttons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:1 thing to note is that a properly build condi Daredevil has little mobility. In a fight, steal is their main mobility go to. If they swap to sb mid fight, you have 10 sec of weak condis to get em before they swap again.While some may find it not fun to fight against, its a l2f (learn to fight) issue.Not even close, it's just a simple binary scenario. Predicted the steal and saved 4+ condition removal? You nullify the thief for 20s.Caught without 4+ condition removal? You Insta-die.There's really no meaning at all in exploiting a Thief's lack of mobility.. Like, what are you even taking about, Sword return, Shortbow5, Shadowstep, these are 3 easy disengages.All you do is disengage on condi Thief except for the two seconds where you put venoms up and hit three buttons to burst someone from 1500 range through a wall, Sword2 -> Steal -> Dodge.It's fine that Thieves can engage and disengage like this.. The problem is that to do max damage all you need to do is Steal -> Dodge every 20s.Condi thief is an ultra noob friendly starter build that can easily suckerpunch/dispatch much stronger players with better mechanical skill. Making the damage require even the slightest nuance or adding just a few seconds of being on the aggressive would be the way to balance the condi Thief playstyle so it would actually require some finesse.Simple way to do that:Poison on Steal minor trait, and Confusion on Steal major trait: De-couple them from steal and give it a more evened out way of applying, but keep the max DPS output over time.For example, shift this damage away from steal and towards landing Dual Wield attacks, Stealth attacks.That's all you have to do to make dealing damage on condi thief require an ounce of mechanical skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Please wait before I bring my MM necromancer. B)Frankly, though, how many conditions can a thief running sword and shortbow apply to you? I would be a bit more convinced if you QQd about D/D condi at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.3620 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Chaith.8256 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:1 thing to note is that a properly build condi Daredevil has little mobility. In a fight, steal is their main mobility go to. If they swap to sb mid fight, you have 10 sec of weak condis to get em before they swap again.While some may find it not fun to fight against, its a l2f (learn to fight) issue.Not even close, it's just a simple binary scenario. Predicted the steal and saved 4+ condition removal? You nullify the thief for 20s.Caught without 4+ condition removal? You Insta-die.There's really no meaning at all in exploiting a Thief's lack of mobility.. Like, what are you even taking about, Sword return, Shortbow5, Shadowstep, these are 3 easy disengages.All you do is disengage on condi Thief except for the two seconds where you put venoms up and hit three buttons to burst someone from 1500 range through a wall, Sword2 -> Steal -> Dodge.It's fine that Thieves can engage and disengage like this.. The problem is that to do max damage all you need to do is Steal -> Dodge every 20s.Condi thief is an ultra noob friendly starter build that can easily suckerpunch/dispatch much stronger players with better mechanical skill. Making the damage require even the slightest nuance or adding just a few seconds of being on the aggressive would be the way to balance the condi Thief playstyle so it would actually require some finesse.Simple way to do that:Poison on Steal minor trait, and Confusion on Steal major trait: De-couple them from steal and give it a more evened out way of applying, but keep the max DPS output over time.For example, shift this damage away from steal and towards landing Dual Wield attacks, Stealth attacks.That's all you have to do to make dealing damage on condi thief require an ounce of mechanical skill.The same applies to all burst thief builds, be either condi or power. Remove thief all together.Everyone hates thief, even thieves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Panda.3620 said:The same applies to all burst thief builds, be either condi or power. Remove thief all together.Everyone hates thief, even thieves.Hell no it doesn't. D/P, S/D Thief, you can't just steal+dodge+disengageto do maximum DPS. You have to interact using flanking strike, shadow shot, auto attacks, stealth attacks, cluster bombs.Thief hysteria makes it so you can't appreciate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiritodatrth.1548 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I got be honest... I have a really bad time against CONDI thief... I have no idea mechanically how to play against it... I fell that nothing I do works other than clean whatever they put on me...I can dodge steal, get caught by lotus, if I try to pressure in the area where S2 they just SB 5 away and keep pressuring me... I would really like ppl to help saying how to counter it. Particularly to me CONDI thief and Revs are my kryptonite. Other classes are OK... I still make a lot of mistakes and end up losing but I can realize where and when I made these mistakes...A good Rev and a good CONDI thief I have no idea how to beat still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:I got be honest... I have a really bad time against CONDI thief... I have no idea mechanically how to play against it... I fell that nothing I do works other than clean whatever they put on me...I can dodge steal, get caught by lotus, if I try to pressure in the area where S2 they just SB 5 away and keep pressuring me... I would really like ppl to help saying how to counter it. Particularly to me CONDI thief and Revs are my kryptonite. Other classes are OK... I still make a lot of mistakes and end up losing but I can realize where and when I made these mistakes...A good Rev and a good CONDI thief I have no idea how to beat still...All you must do is keep a rainy day full-clear, put it behind a glass panel that says: "Break glass in case of Condi thief." If your sustain is tied to your condi clear, like Healing Turret for example, that's not good, you're going to be vulnerable to be Insta killed.There's one tip which is to immediately nullify projectiles when thief jumps you. There is an 100% chance he will dodge twice to apply venom via the Lotus Training dodge - these are projectiles from the dodge which you can prevent him applying poison.Honestly all the tips aren't that helpful because any thief can catch you off guard with a 1500 unit engage that ignores terrain. Unless balance changes, even if you have dodges/invulns/teleports they are worthless because the only interaction is right when the Thief engages.But yes, to reiterate, try a lightning fast projectile hate skill or saving a full clear to the best of your ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Kiritodatrth.1548 said:I got be honest... I have a really bad time against CONDI thief... I have no idea mechanically how to play against it... I fell that nothing I do works other than clean whatever they put on me...I can dodge steal, get caught by lotus, if I try to pressure in the area where S2 they just SB 5 away and keep pressuring me... I would really like ppl to help saying how to counter it. Particularly to me CONDI thief and Revs are my kryptonite. Other classes are OK... I still make a lot of mistakes and end up losing but I can realize where and when I made these mistakes...A good Rev and a good CONDI thief I have no idea how to beat still...As far as condi thief goes, the key is to lock them down right after their dodge frames end. Knowing that they will steal+sword 2+ dodge you can actually wait until they port right up to you (there's a small delay on sword 2's hit after they port to you) and cc them at the last second (this would be ideal but it's very difficult to pull off in real time under match pressure. The other scenario is right after their dodge finishes they often will sword 2 port back to avoid any follow up damage. During this time you have all the vuln frames of their dodge plus the cast time of the port to cc them before they get away. If you can do that and catch them without a stunbreak you get to beat on them freely. Obviously this isn't a flawless strategy and the only other advice I can give is kiting to no port spots to avoid the engagement altogether, but hopefully it helps a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiritodatrth.1548 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Chaith.8256 said:@"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:I got be honest... I have a really bad time against CONDI thief... I have no idea mechanically how to play against it... I fell that nothing I do works other than clean whatever they put on me...I can dodge steal, get caught by lotus, if I try to pressure in the area where S2 they just SB 5 away and keep pressuring me... I would really like ppl to help saying how to counter it. Particularly to me CONDI thief and Revs are my kryptonite. Other classes are OK... I still make a lot of mistakes and end up losing but I can realize where and when I made these mistakes...A good Rev and a good CONDI thief I have no idea how to beat still...All you must do is keep a rainy day full-clear, put it behind a glass panel that says: "Break glass in case of Condi thief." If your sustain is tied to your condi clear, like Healing Turret for example, that's not good, you're going to be vulnerable to be Insta killed.There's one tip which is to immediately reflect when thief jumps you. There is an 100% chance he will dodge twice to apply venom via the Lotus Training dodge - these are projectiles from the dodge which you can prevent him applying poison.Honestly all the tips aren't that helpful because any thief can catch you off guard with a 1500 unit engage that ignores terrain. Unless balance changes, even if you have dodges/invulns/teleports they are worthless because the only interaction is right when the Thief engages.But yes, to reiterate, try a lightning fast projectile hate skill or saving a full clear to the best of your ability.Hey Chait thanks a lot for answering...Sure I can do... Tried... You know what they do? Spam sword 3 and interrupt... Sooo frustrating...cause prolly you lost a dodge to the steal and prolly you will have to lose another for the LS (still venom up)... They can ezly bomb you with SB after that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.3620 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Chaith.8256 said:@Panda.3620 said:The same applies to all burst thief builds, be either condi or power. Remove thief all together.Everyone hates thief, even thieves.Hell no it doesn't. D/P, S/D Thief, you can't just steal+dodge+disengageto do maximum DPS. You have to interact using flanking strike, shadow shot, auto attacks, stealth attacks, cluster bombs.Thief hysteria makes it so you can't appreciate that.S/D isn't burst.D/P You can steal and combo with a heartseeker/bounding dodger and backstab for maximum dps and disengage but it's nerfed, staff damage is higher now.Staff you can steal+weakening strike and debiliting arc and then just spam evade and vault and disengage too.Staff can easily do 15k+ steal+weakening strike+debiliting arc(evade) and it doesn't take 2 sec and if you didn't see the thief coming, there is no way to react because of basilisk venom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Panda.3620 said:@Chaith.8256 said:@Panda.3620 said:The same applies to all burst thief builds, be either condi or power. Remove thief all together.Everyone hates thief, even thieves.Hell no it doesn't. D/P, S/D Thief, you can't just steal+dodge+disengageto do maximum DPS. You have to interact using flanking strike, shadow shot, auto attacks, stealth attacks, cluster bombs.Thief hysteria makes it so you can't appreciate that.S/D isn't burst.D/P You can steal and combo with a heartseeker/bounding dodger and backstab for maximum dps and disengage but it's nerfed, staff damage is higher now.Staff you can steal+weakening strike and debiliting arc and then just spam evade and vault and disengage too.Staff can easily do 15k+ steal+weakening strike+debiliting arc(evade) and it doesn't take 2 sec with just and if you didn't see the thief coming there is no way to react because of basilisk venom.I know all this, and my point is still that all the abovementioned playstyles are much more interactive. When you're engaged on by these builds, you can use dodges, invulns, and counterpressure to protect yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiritodatrth.1548 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Ario.8964 said:@Kiritodatrth.1548 said:I got be honest... I have a really bad time against CONDI thief... I have no idea mechanically how to play against it... I fell that nothing I do works other than clean whatever they put on me...I can dodge steal, get caught by lotus, if I try to pressure in the area where S2 they just SB 5 away and keep pressuring me... I would really like ppl to help saying how to counter it. Particularly to me CONDI thief and Revs are my kryptonite. Other classes are OK... I still make a lot of mistakes and end up losing but I can realize where and when I made these mistakes...A good Rev and a good CONDI thief I have no idea how to beat still...As far as condi thief goes, the key is to lock them down right after their dodge frames end. Knowing that they will steal+sword 2+ dodge you can actually wait until they port right up to you (there's a small delay on sword 2's hit after they port to you) and cc them at the last second (this would be ideal but it's very difficult to pull off in real time under match pressure. The other scenario is right after their dodge finishes they often will sword 2 port back to avoid any follow up damage. During this time you have all the vuln frames of their dodge plus the cast time of the port to cc them before they get away. If you can do that and catch them without a stunbreak you get to beat on them freely. Obviously this isn't a flawless strategy and the only other advice I can give is kiting to no port spots to avoid the engagement altogether, but hopefully it helps a bit.This is exactly what I try to do... Thanks for the answer... Tbh not working... might be a L2P issue, but I'm losing to thiefs that I used to beat ezly in the past... Also the access to insta CC is only in some classes... Hard to match a good thief... Especially if he knows how to fake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 @Kiritodatrth.1548 said:@Chaith.8256 said:@Kiritodatrth.1548 said:I got be honest... I have a really bad time against CONDI thief... I have no idea mechanically how to play against it... I fell that nothing I do works other than clean whatever they put on me...I can dodge steal, get caught by lotus, if I try to pressure in the area where S2 they just SB 5 away and keep pressuring me... I would really like ppl to help saying how to counter it. Particularly to me CONDI thief and Revs are my kryptonite. Other classes are OK... I still make a lot of mistakes and end up losing but I can realize where and when I made these mistakes...A good Rev and a good CONDI thief I have no idea how to beat still...All you must do is keep a rainy day full-clear, put it behind a glass panel that says: "Break glass in case of Condi thief." If your sustain is tied to your condi clear, like Healing Turret for example, that's not good, you're going to be vulnerable to be Insta killed.There's one tip which is to immediately reflect when thief jumps you. There is an 100% chance he will dodge twice to apply venom via the Lotus Training dodge - these are projectiles from the dodge which you can prevent him applying poison.Honestly all the tips aren't that helpful because any thief can catch you off guard with a 1500 unit engage that ignores terrain. Unless balance changes, even if you have dodges/invulns/teleports they are worthless because the only interaction is right when the Thief engages.But yes, to reiterate, try a lightning fast projectile hate skill or saving a full clear to the best of your ability.Hey Chait thanks a lot for answering...Sure I can do... Tried... You know what they do? Spam sword 3 and interrupt... Sooo frustrating...cause prolly you lost a dodge to the steal and prolly you will have to lose another for the LS (still venom up)... They can ezly bomb you with SB after that...If you survive or partially nullify the Steal + Dodge Dodge combo of champions, you've won (until it comes back up.) If the condi Thief starts using Sword3, or using Shortbow offensively, play as aggressively as possible, do anything to crush it and it'll crumble. If it stays on the aggressive without the steal one-shot gimmick it's because you let it. He doesn't have any interrupts outside of bassy venom and if you stand in choking gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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