Need some input on how this is possible?

Now...first off...I am not accusing anyone of hacking or anything. I am trying to understand and wrap my head around how it was possible.

Unfortunately I do not stream or record my game play.

I was fighting, several times, a mesmer vs my ranger. (I play all the professions, most not very well in WvW :), so I am asking here instead of in a specific Profession thread.)

I could knock him back, but as soon as I hit my Rapid Fire, it would cascade "INVULNERABLE". Then he would get up, and instant cast 3 clones and burst them, all within about 1 second? And if I was able to dodge out of that burst enough to survive (I always took some damage), it would happen again and 3 clones would pop up around me and instantly shatter and I would be down. (Or he would do something and be on me and melee me down pretty hard and fast...I think it would have been with Sword 3, but I can't be sure it was that every time.)A few times 1 single insta-clone/shatter would down me from 95%-Full health. If my timing was right, and I am admittedly a mediocre WvW player at best, I could get him to like 90% dead...he would vanish for @2-3 seconds and then reappear at about 75% health and hit an insta-clone/burst and wreck me.

So how is this accomplished?

I was running a Beastmaster in Maurauder gear and Zerker weapons in WvW. I run LB + Sword/Dagger. And as I said, a few times I could get him low, but never close the deal. And if I ever paused for even a second, boom...3-clone/shatter in an instant.

I had to think it was Macros, simply because it was so fast...i mean those 3 clones all appeared at the same time. I accept that some people use those in the game, and there's not much that can or will be done about it. That being said, I also don't want to assume the worst.

So thanks to anyone who can explain and help me understand how this would happen, so perhaps I can figure out a way to deal with it in game at least with a small amount of success. :)

doesnt sound too special. there are alot of power mesmers out there trying to instant kill.what exaclty do you not understand of what happend? the clones, the damage or the mobility?would take a while to list all skills/traits that generate clones or are commonly used for mobility.the damage sounds like mindwrack boosted by mental anguish/superiority complex, with your gear it is normal that you instant drop to that with 3 clones.

as for macros, that is a common accusation but your skills are not faster when executed by a macro. and there is no way you can see someone is using a macro when playing a class. its a little different when playing music instuments as there are alot more instant abilities.

Fair enough...I am just not sure how all 3 clones can appear at the same time and even before they get fully rendered they burst into butterflies and I am almost-down or down. Its just so fast. I tried to see if I could duplicate the speed against some golems, and no can do. Maybe I am just too slow at it, but I dunno...I could never get them all 3 to appear at the same time. Also I am not sure how I could knock him down but then he is Invulnerable when hit while down.

I do some pretty solid direct damage, but he was soaking it up like it was a cookie in milk. :)

The mobility and stealth I get...as I said, I do play a Mesmer from time-to-time...granted not as well as this player.

@Thorfinnr Sleggja.1209 said:Also I am not sure how I could knock him down but then he is Invulnerable when hit while down.

mesmer f4 is instant and grants invuln, can be casted during CC.

If you had posted a video of it one could point everything out. Otherwise it's pretty hard. But it sounds like you met a chrono.

In general though, ranger is cannon fodder for a good mesmer. Just the reflect on dodge can kill zerker ranger by their own rapid fire - especially if we are talking stock ranger. You'd have to be a sustain druid or power soulbeast with unblockables to be a real threat.

Your weapons could be part of the reason you couldn't get him lower than 10%. Mesmer can counter most of the longbow skills with reflects, and your sword dagger set is better suited for evading attacks than it is for applying more pressure. If you're already running Beastmastery, why not give greatsword a go? It's good for cleaving clones and has an evade in its autoattack chain whereas sword weirdly has one instance in its chain that hits only one target.

Edited to add: The point of cleaving in melee range is to destroy the clones and damage the mesmer at the same time.

Sounds like macro abuse.

@X T D.6458 said:Sounds like macro abuse.

How so? Specifically, which part sounds like a macro, rather than a human was pushing the buttons?

Just Mesmer Things.™

You should not be spending time trying to cleave out the clones. They're infinitely generated, often stealthed and frequently near-instantaneously shattered before you have a chance to swing your sword/greatsword even once.Focus the mesmer, do your best to dodge their burst and save an unblockable for after they've expended some of their dodges to guarantee a rapid fire.Also, watch out for their downstate burst. Its admittedly kind of obscene compared to other death throes. (Though a ranger should win a downstate fight against a mesmer.)

Don't try to melee a mesmer. They have too many ports & stealths for that. Plus if things are looking grim, being some distance from the them may allow a successful escape if you've saved your movement abilities for the defensive. They have heavy kiting potential, but only moderate chasing potential.

Oh, and Signet of Stone passive trait if you're running Marksmanship. Forget the long cooldown, in zerk vs. zerk fights a few seconds can be an eternity. Its the closest rangers will get to invulnerability.

~ Kovu

It's because there's this Mirage trait that gives them reflection do dodge so u need to pay close attention not to kill yourself with your LB#2. As for the burst, you'll have to look out for the GS toss - shatter combo, which can be dodged if you see it coming and the burst keeps coming at you every 10 sec so be ready. Power mirages in your cases can't stealth that much, they only have decoy and torch #4 for stealth (maybe 25% life passive stealth if traited). So as a ranger, use your longbow #3 wisely, shoot at a clone one second after the mesmer going into stealth or defensively use smokescale to stealth. My point is that power mirages don't stealth as much as you think and if you manage to negate his bursts while giving keeping him pressured (pet, longbow) you will have a chance.

One of the main questions still hasn't been answered. How can a mesmer of any type pop 3 clones in a split second? I thought you had to hit a skill of some sort, that skill will generate a clone etc.. not three at once. I've seen this happen as well with mirages, and other mesmers and wondered how the world it's done.

There are probably a few options that will generate all clones close together, but the only 'instant' way I can think of is a mirage running Deceptive Evasion (trait) and Mirror Images Utility. It should generate 3 clones near instantly, and (should be) shatterable during the mirage evade frames.

It could also be any other clone generating skill combined with Mirror Images firing at the end of the cast.

I’ll try it out and see ?

@neptunechild.4831 said:It's because there's this Mirage trait that gives them reflection do dodge so u need to pay close attention not to kill yourself with your LB#2. As for the burst, you'll have to look out for the GS toss - shatter combo, which can be dodge

Which kind of shows what people knows about mirages :/

Reflect on dodge is a trait in the core mesmer duelling tree and has nothing to do with mirage.

There is actually nothing in the OP indicating it even was a mirage, could just as well been a stock mesmer or chrono.

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:One of the main questions still hasn't been answered. How can a mesmer of any type pop 3 clones in a split second? I thought you had to hit a skill of some sort, that skill will generate a clone etc.. not three at once. I've seen this happen as well with mirages, and other mesmers and wondered how the world it's done.

The second three clones would likely be because of this:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chronophantasma

The first three clones would be by these:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Decoyhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_Images

Both skills are instant cast, and both buttons, like shouts for reaper and tempest (and maybe warrior thought I don't play it) can be hit at the same time. It's not hard to do on a multi button mouse.

So... three clones popped up 'instantly', then once they shattered, three more pop. And shatter almost immediately.

Not saying everything WAS legitimate, but it COULD be.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@neptunechild.4831 said:It's because there's this Mirage trait that gives them reflection do dodge so u need to pay close attention not to kill yourself with your LB#2. As for the burst, you'll have to look out for the GS toss - shatter combo, which can be dodge

Which it likely would need to be a chrono based on description.

I agree with an earlier poster: video would have helped.

Thanks for all the insight. He wasn't using relfects, as my Rapid Shot would break him down pretty steady...it was always just that last bit I couldn't seem to chip off. And the f4 explains the INVULN after I would hit him with LB4.

Again, apologies for no video. I play for fun and don't have anything set up to record my gameplay. :(

I have used GS in the past on my power beastmaster, but was trying out a sniper config. Sw/D wasn't necessarily meant for pressure, and I rarely swapped to it in these fights, but the comments were all right...when I was using GS previously the clones and such weren't as big of a problem, and I just hadn't ran into these instant-cast-shatter builds yet. I have to give him props, he was pretty good at staying out of melee range in any case...and I woudl make him have to break off and reset form time to time...until I screwed up and he would nail me. :)

I believe he was a Mirage, as I seem to remember he had the new symbol...not the Clock from Chrono.

I do use Smokescale and Rock Gazelle...probably should have gone with the better knockdown of the Gazelle when I had my pet out and not bonded. I do need to check out my unblockables...I thought I had traited to get a lot of those...but maybe I missed changing something.

Thanks again for all the tips and insights. Gives me some ideas to try next time I run across one of these types of Mesmers. I welcome more discussion if there's any more to add.

Since it was a mirage, my guess for at least some of the clone generation would be the trait https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Self-Deception. Jaunt is especially potent at making clones with that trait as each charge of Jaunt counts as using a Deception skill so far as the trait is concerned.

@"Thorfinnr Sleggja.1209" said:I have used GS in the past on my power beastmaster, but was trying out a sniper config. Sw/D wasn't necessarily meant for pressure, and I rarely swapped to it in these fights, but the comments were all right...when I was using GS previously the clones and such weren't as big of a problem, and I just hadn't ran into these instant-cast-shatter builds yet. I have to give him props, he was pretty good at staying out of melee range in any case...and I woudl make him have to break off and reset form time to time...until I screwed up and he would nail me. :)

Well that's the thing with all evasive dps builds you fight - you either build to sustain while tanking the damage or you build to be just as evasive and take a chance you're better than him at bursting. And chances are when you are meeting a mesmer... you wont be. If you do anything between you're often cannon fodder.

I went 2v1 today, me on mirage and a guildie on scourge vs an enemy druid and we could just barely bring him down after maybe 2 minutes of fighting. In the end he died because he chose not to disengage. Trust me he could do that, he was in stealth half the time and always popped up beyond ranged fire. And he was modestly dangerous in that build too, though more so toward the scourge (so much immobilize whereas my mirage has an easier time against that). People will probably say "ooh but that only mean you're so bad, you're the worst" but that's on the same build that can deal with highly predictable shatter mirages in seconds without taking much damage.

TL;DR there is a counter for everything. Even mesmers. Some of it is skill, much of it is build.

This mesmer may or may not be using macros, but one very good mesmer admitted to using macros (which he learned from his mentor, apparently), and claims that all the good mesmers he knows use macros.

@BlueMelody.6398 said:This mesmer may or may not be using macros, but one very good mesmer admitted to using macros (which he learned from his mentor, apparently), and claims that all the good mesmers he knows use macros.Maybe that says more about his circle of friends than anything else...

@Tor.1365 said:There are probably a few options that will generate all clones close together, but the only 'instant' way I can think of is a mirage running Deceptive Evasion (trait) and Mirror Images Utility. It should generate 3 clones near instantly, and (should be) shatterable during the mirage evade frames.

It could also be any other clone generating skill combined with Mirror Images firing at the end of the cast.

That works beautifully... and actually I used Mirror Images and Decoy to do this. Get your target, hit mirror images then decoy.. BAM.... Three clones in a fraction of a second. Sweet! Now to practice more!!!

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Tor.1365 said:There are probably a few options that will generate all clones close together, but the only 'instant' way I can think of is a mirage running Deceptive Evasion (trait) and Mirror Images Utility. It should generate 3 clones near instantly, and (should be) shatterable during the mirage evade frames.

It could also be any other clone generating skill combined with Mirror Images firing at the end of the cast.

It does work, which is why mesmers doing it are so predictable, lol. They always squirt clones.

Most shatter fights is still see mesmer > mesmer stealth > count 2s then block > take no damage > counterattack [wait until after sword 2] > repeat when the mesmer stealth again.

Put a target on the Mesmer before you engage. This will help the beginning of the fight. Now some mesmers will use skills to break targetting, if this is the case, try to focus on the one moving or using a special skill.

Also I find running a maruader in medium armor class is not enough for survivability in WvW anymore. Try throwing in some Toughness to your build too. Like a mix of Maruader and Soldier.