Icerazor's Ire

I think it should of applied chill instead of cripple. It even has ice in the skills name and would of worked well with the trait that applies torment when enemies are chilled.

Long requested addition. Probably got canned because they thought it would be OP.

It would stack a massive amount of torment that way. Might work better if every 3rd or 4rth projectile applied chill, maybe. Shrug

It think it was pretty obviously intended to be chill, but they ended up thinking that the synergy would be too op in condi builds. Twenty hits is a lot... I mean, on average it already gives around 6-8 stacks of torment from crit strikes, so this would put that up to 26-28 in a 6s burst (w/o quickness). That's a lot of condi's for such a big AoE targeted skill that's super easy to use, I mean, we're not Scourges. :trollface:

On the plus side, using the same naming logic, Darkrazor was probably intended to originally be Blind spam, but changed to Daze which is wayyyyy stronger.

@narcx.3570 said:It think it was pretty obviously intended to be chill, but they ended up thinking that the synergy would be too op in condi builds. Twenty hits is a lot... I mean, on average it already gives around 6-8 stacks of torment from crit strikes, so this would put that up to 26-28 in a 6s burst (w/o quickness). That's a lot of condi's for such a big AoE targeted skill that's super easy to use, I mean, we're not Scourges. :trollface:

Did I miss a /s ? If I do, sorry. In case it's serious...

It has to hit and it is a MULTI SINGLE TARGET skill (that you have NO CONTROL of the targets) AoE. There is nothing OP about it. So, rarely, it will hit 20 times the same target. If you get hit 20 times by it, then you really deserve it, because you can just move out of the, again, MULTI SINGLE TARGET, AoE. It doesn't hit 5 targets, it doesn't hit 3, it hits one target every hit. If there are 5 targets in the AoE, it will hit 1 target once and do a full rotation (20/5 = 4 hits by target, if they all SIT STILL, which doesn't happen).

It's not at all comparable to Scourge Sand Shades which is a lasting AoE, hits 3 to 5 target, range of 900 and has less obstruction problems.

The skill is under-powered and forgettable. Making it Chill, will only make it just a little better for Condi and Abyssal Chill, but then it will not work with Ashen Demeanor anymore.

@Krispera.5087 said:

@narcx.3570 said:It think it was pretty obviously intended to be chill, but they ended up thinking that the synergy would be too op in condi builds. Twenty hits is a lot... I mean, on average it already gives around 6-8 stacks of torment from crit strikes, so this would put that up to 26-28 in a 6s burst (w/o quickness). That's a lot of condi's for such a big AoE targeted skill that's super easy to use, I mean, we're not Scourges. :trollface:

I meant in PvE... Talking about buffing Kalla spirit damage in PvP is a moot point since any competent player will kill you before you get a single cast off as soon as they see that you're playing renegade. It could apply 3 billion stacks of torment and it wouldn't matter.

@narcx.3570 said:I meant in PvE... Talking about buffing Kalla spirit damage in PvP is a moot point since any competent player will kill you before you get a single cast off as soon as they see that you're playing renegade. It could apply 3 billion stacks of torment and it wouldn't matter.

True, my post what specific to PvP. Condi Renegade is doing not bad in PvE. They are still behind by 10k to Weavers and Mirages, so I wouldn't mind it getting Chill or/and Cripple (Renegade in PvP needs better ways to stick to a target... and many other things). I don't think it will sky rock Renegade to 40k + damage.

@Krispera.5087 said:

@narcx.3570 said:I meant in PvE... Talking about buffing Kalla spirit damage in PvP is a moot point since any competent player will kill you before you get a single cast off as soon as they see that you're playing renegade. It could apply 3 billion stacks of torment and it wouldn't matter.

You shouldn't be.

Should be ~4-5k below weebers vs large hitbox, but ahead of mirage... And like ~5k below Mirage on small and still behind weebers too, but it's really varried due to both of your rng crap.

But you're right, it would probably only be like a 2k increase at best... But anet doesn't like having Renegades do top tier damage, remember how fast they nerfed Lasting Legacy when PoF dropped? And they are especially big on nerfing damage from cast-and-forget skills these days. I mean, obviously I'd use it and love it if they gave it chill...! Just saying tho, they definitely had it this way and then decided against it launch (they're not exactly subtle with their naming of things.)

For PvP, they should just break down and give Renegade's stealth... You know they wanted to, it's right in the class description about Guerrilla warfare and ambushing your enemies with your warband. While personally I hate stealth classes and think they're a big detriment to this (and most) competitive games, objectively, it would at least make sense with the current kit they have and go a long way to make them not the #1-de facto-sitting duck-meme class.

They could just reduce the attacks on icerazor and then make it do chill.

@Krispera.5087 said:True, my post what specific to PvP. Condi Renegade is doing not bad in PvE. They are still behind by 10k to Weavers and Mirages, so I wouldn't mind it getting Chill or/and Cripple (Renegade in PvP needs better ways to stick to a target... and many other things). I don't think it will sky rock Renegade to 40k + damage.

Invocation Renegade can already hit 38k+ with allies on huge hitbox, so an extra 20 stacks of torment in its rotation every 20s would almost certainly put it at 40kish

+1 for adding Chill.

Even the constant soft cc will bring plenty of QoL to the class in all game modes.

Really hope they see this post before next Balance Patch.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:True, my post what specific to PvP. Condi Renegade is doing not bad in PvE. They are still behind by 10k to Weavers and Mirages, so I wouldn't mind it getting Chill or/and Cripple (Renegade in PvP needs better ways to stick to a target... and many other things). I don't think it will sky rock Renegade to 40k + damage.

And for each target you add to the circle, the torment stacks per target decrease significantly. Currently, Icerazor isn't useful in any scenario. Oh, and if it hits something that reflects projectiles, they get reflected at you.

@Quarktastic.1027 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:True, my post what specific to PvP. Condi Renegade is doing not bad in PvE. They are still behind by 10k to Weavers and Mirages, so I wouldn't mind it getting Chill or/and Cripple (Renegade in PvP needs better ways to stick to a target... and many other things). I don't think it will sky rock Renegade to 40k + damage.

Sure, the damage decreases per target, but most bosses don’t have a significant number of adds (or spawn them in intervals) meaning your icerazor is almost always only hitting a single target. To say “icerazor isn’t useful in any situation” just isn’t true; it’s very much a part of the current highest dps rotation and most of the time/with skillful use it lands all of its damage.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Quarktastic.1027 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:True, my post what specific to PvP. Condi Renegade is doing not bad in PvE. They are still behind by 10k to Weavers and Mirages, so I wouldn't mind it getting Chill or/and Cripple (Renegade in PvP needs better ways to stick to a target... and many other things). I don't think it will sky rock Renegade to 40k + damage.

I don't play PvE, but would it be bad if the number of hits was lowered while the damage was kept the same so shill could be added for torment procs?

@Hiki.9310 saidI don't play PvE, but would it be bad if the number of hits was lowered while the damage was kept the same so shill could be added for torment procs?

As long as it’s still doing the same raw power damage, 20 stacks of vuln (useful in some situations) and about 4 to 5 chill applications I think it could be fine. It wouldn’t be a 1 to 1 trade, though, as Abyssal Chill is a stronger 6s torment vs. Rampant Vex’s 4s. Since it currently procs Rampant Vex about 6.6 times (round up to 7 for ease of calculation) that would be about 28 seconds of torment total. Divide that by 6 and you’d need about 4.6 (so either 4 or 5) chill applications to have equivalent damage to current rampant vex + icerazor. Anything higher than that and you’re making the skill stronger.

But all of that aside, it would still hit 20 times and have a 33% chance per hit to proc torment, so if they wanted to keep the current functionality and add chill they’d have to make it like epidemic where the bolts can’t crit, meaning the base power would have to be increased substantially to compensate which could be messy. Chill would also likely have to be added in “every 4th hit” or something if 20 strikes is still what they want. If they want to reduce the strikes to say, 6, and add chill every hit then the split target functionality would probably be worse and they might as well just make it a 6s pulsing 3 to 5 Target AoE at that point. Also if it’s attacks were reduced the animation would likely have to get changed as well which means more resources dedicated to fixing it.

There’s really a lot of considerations to be made when changing it. For pvp/wvw tho, I think just adding chill wouldn’t really be enough to make it useful; it still has all the same ability to get easily negated through random CC and the low survivability issues of summoned spirits. If those issues are dealt with then current icerazor would be a lot stronger.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:There’s really a lot of considerations to be made when changing it. For pvp/wvw tho, I think just adding chill wouldn’t really be enough to make it useful; it still has all the same ability to get easily negated through random CC and the low survivability issues of summoned spirits. If those issues are dealt with then current icerazor would be a lot stronger.

I don't really get how strong people want this ability to be... In PvE, it's already one of your 2nd tier strong abilities, meaning that it's always worth casting if you have extra available energy (from doing mechanics, rezzing someone, playing Invocation, etc.) There's TONS of skills in the game from classes that don't even have to deal with energy management that aren't even worth casting because their damage to cast-time-ratio is less than just auto attacking. This is not one of them, which already makes it pretty strong/decent. The problem with giving its name-sake chill is now, how strong do we make it? OK, you can reduce the number of hits, but even at only 4 hits, it's already stronger on average than it is now, which would be just a straight DPS buff to renegade. Now say you make it hit 15 times? Now it's doing as much damage as a PERFECTLY executed Razorclaw--meaning all of your allies get all of their pulses and actually hit the boss with them... And that's on a stationary target. Now it (essentially a soft-cc utility skill) is replacing Razorclaw (a straight dps skill) from your rotation since it doesn't rely on your allies. It would also probably replace Citadel Bombardment (another pure dps skill) from your rotation vs small hitbox targets since it negates RNG.

OK, but let's say this was a PvP only change... Obviously, it would help, I guess, but not much... Any Mirage/Holo/Thief/Herald/Breaker is still going to just see you, acknowledge that you're a renegade, laugh, and then use their movement skills to get right on top of you and down you before Icerazor even does his first swing. Also, it's worth mentioning that as of right now Icerazor is a Revenant's only source of cripple (outside of weapon sigils that you shouldn't be using and a renegade trait.) Most builds already have ample access to chill (ps, ua, axe4, sw5), and from a strictly survivability/kiting/pursuing standpoint two different soft-cc's are better than one.

Plus chill-spam is just such a gross condi in pvp... I know it's cleanseable, but it really is pretty OP, it's like super cripple+anti-alacrity... It's crazy that they recognize how strong alacrity is and limit its use, but let its reverse counterpart be so readily spammable. I'm all for making renegade better, but I just hate the expansion of cheese mechanics like chill spam, stealth, immob spam, chain daze/stun spam, etc. I hope that if they do want to fix renegades for pvp, they do so in a cheeseless manner... I think things like getting rid of the cooldown on Sudden Reversal and adding additional soft cc to it or adding some i frames and movement to sb5 would be good places to start since they wouldn't ruin skills/traits for PvE in the process. Just little things to make it not such a sitting duck class. I mean, to me it's clear they built renegade with stealth access in mind, but then took out the stealth at the last second with no compensation. While I'm personally glad they didn't add more stealth to the game, it really did leave a big hole in their viability.

Just make it cause 360 AoE chill on initial cast and leave it as is OR put an ICD on the demon trait that adds torment on chill while using this skill. They kinda set a precedent for situational ICDs with Dhummfire being used with Scourge.

@Exalted Quality.8534 said:Just make it cause 360 AoE chill on initial cast and leave it as is OR put an ICD on the demon trait that adds torment on chill while using this skill. They kinda set a precedent for situational ICDs with Dhummfire being used with Scourge.

I hope they don't do an ICD. I like how that trait works with sword 2 for a hybrid build :anguished:

@Hiki.9310 said:

@Exalted Quality.8534 said:Just make it cause 360 AoE chill on initial cast and leave it as is OR put an ICD on the demon trait that adds torment on chill while using this skill. They kinda set a precedent for situational ICDs with Dhummfire being used with Scourge.

Agreed! Please don't suggest an icd for the sake of one skill :(

There already is a 10 second ICD for Abyssal Chill in PvP, I don't see why Chill on Icerazor's Ire couldn't be done. It would barely be a thing damage-wise, and would be great as a control skill.

@Yannir.4132 said:There already is a 10 second ICD for Abyssal Chill in PvP, I don't see why Chill on Icerazor's Ire couldn't be done. It would barely be a thing damage-wise, and would be great as a control skill.

I'm sure there is no ICD in PvP. I've been using that trait with precision strike to get three stacks of torment.

@Hiki.9310 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:There already is a 10 second ICD for Abyssal Chill in PvP, I don't see why Chill on Icerazor's Ire couldn't be done. It would barely be a thing damage-wise, and would be great as a control skill.

I honestly don't play it but that's what the skill editor says. And Crits inflict Torment as well btw.

@Yannir.4132

Crits have a 33% chance to inflict torment. Sword 2 would not be consistently inflicting 3 stacks of torment when there's only a 3.6% chance of all three procing, and that's assuming all three crit as well. The build editor is wrong, there is no icd on Abyssal Chill in any of the three game modes.

As for the topic of the thread, maybe Icerazor could pulse an aoe chill two or three times, or every fourth or fifth projectile could inflict 2sec of chill in addition to the usual cripple and vulnerability. And for the sake of everything that's good in the world, do not suggest an icd for Abyssal Chill. Anet's already done enough damage to revenants with all their tinkering over the years and this trait is one of the few good things that's come of it.

@Draygorn.7012 said:

@Hiki.9310 said:

@Exalted Quality.8534 said:Just make it cause 360 AoE chill on initial cast and leave it as is OR put an ICD on the demon trait that adds torment on chill while using this skill. They kinda set a precedent for situational ICDs with Dhummfire being used with Scourge.

Re-read what I wrote. I never suggested a global ICD, just one that would limit chill from Icerazor. I don’t know why you’re so worried ... it’s not like the devs have ever looked at the rev sub forum anyways.

@Arkaile.5604 said:@Yannir.4132

Crits have a 33% chance to inflict torment. Sword 2 would not be consistently inflicting 3 stacks of torment when there's only a 3.6% chance of all three procing, and that's assuming all three crit as well. The build editor is wrong, there is no icd on Abyssal Chill in any of the three game modes.

As for the topic of the thread, maybe Icerazor could pulse an aoe chill two or three times, or every fourth or fifth projectile could inflict 2sec of chill in addition to the usual cripple and vulnerability. And for the sake of everything that's good in the world, do not suggest an icd for Abyssal Chill. Anet's already done enough damage to revenants with all their tinkering over the years and this trait is one of the few good things that's come of it.

I did check this in-game, and there indeed is no ICD on it. Seems like the editor is wrong on this. Good thing IMO.