Mesmer has too many passive defenses.

Been recking on a Mesmer lately and i have realized that for all the complains about warrior, Mesmer has just as many if not MORE passive defenses.

Why? Because all its defensive tools double as offensive tools as well, thus you dont really choose between the 2 or sacrifice one for the other.

-You doge which creates a clone (you defensive mechanism) and triggers additional damage from your clones.-You do Axe 2 which inflicts a bunch of conditions AND creates a clone which again is your main defensive mechanism.-You Jaunt and Inflict Confusion.-You axe 3, reposition, set for shatter, make a mess of targeting and clones positioning, which again is your defensive mechanism and inflict a bunch of confusion.-Pistol 4 does a truckload of damage AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.-Scepter 1 inflicts torment AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.

List goes on and on and on. And the problem is, these are not tactical choices, they simply happen when you go on the offensive. No other class, except Elementis has this overlap of offensive and defensive triggers.

------------------ALL of the above heal you when they trigger.

CLARIFIYING PASSIVE:In this game, passives, are things that get triggered while doing something else, and doing that something else might or might not be related to the purpose of the triggered passive. They are bonus things that happen while doing something else.An example often thrown around is ADRENAL HEALTH. This is a healing that gets triggered When you use your burst skills. You have to trigger burst skills any way to play the warrior class, and it is not the objective or main function of burst skills to give you Adrenal Health, it just happens.Same goes for this skills, they have an offensive function, but end up producing defensive tools as well.

Lol! Almost everything you mentioned is core mechanic of mesmer. Removing them is like removing adrenaline and burst from warrior.

Not only is none of that passive( you need a dictionary). Not all of that heals you either...

@Solori.6025 said:Not only is none of that passive( you need a dictionary). Not all of that heals you either...

Definitions work in context, in the context of this game, if you are not actively looking for triggering a skill for defensive porpouses, like say an invulnerability, then they are things that just happen while you are actually using skills to do something else. In this context, that is the definition of passive.Adrenal Health, is considered a passive because you dont actually trigger it, it gets triggered while you are actually doing something that you would have to do as a warrior any way. Same goes for mesmer defenses. An other interesting thing is why does warrior need to trait into adrenal health but mesmer gets most of this passive defenses by default?.

@Arbalest.4506 said:Lol! Almost everything you mentioned is core mechanic of mesmer. Removing them is like removing adrenaline and burst from warrior.

Im not saying removing illusion, im saying the mesmer defensive mechanisms need a rework. You cant ignore this lvl of passive defenses while simultaneously complain about other clases, and in practice, it has led mesmer to being op time and again and again.

@Apolo.5942 said:Im not saying removing illusion, im saying the mesmer defensive mechanisms need a rework. You cant ignore this lvl of passive defenses while simultaneously complain about other clases, and in practice, it has led mesmer to being op time and again and again.

How 'generating clone' is considered as defensive mechanism?Like mesmer warrior gain adrenaline when they attack (or getting hit) or necro gain life force. They're need some rework too if we use your logic.

@Apolo.5942 said:

@Solori.6025 said:Not only is none of that passive( you need a dictionary). Not all of that heals you either...

So one.In that context of what you consider passive. ALL damage would be considered a passive effect. ALL skills that lockdown or inhibite player movement would be a passive effect. That doesn't make sense.Two.Clones are NOT a defensive mechanic. It's a core class mechanic that can be used for either offensive skills or defensive skills. A defensive mechanic is something like blur, mirage cloak, or distortion.Three.You need to brush up on the history of mesmer. Because the core mechanic is not why the class is considered OP.

It's funny people consider a core class mechanic OP and it's 2018 lol

@Arbalest.4506 said:

@Apolo.5942 said:Im not saying removing illusion, im saying the mesmer defensive mechanisms need a rework. You cant ignore this lvl of passive defenses while simultaneously complain about other clases, and in practice, it has led mesmer to being op time and again and again.

-Warriors adrenaline serves no defensive purpose unless you trait for it, which is quite clearly NOT the case for mesmer.-Necros Life force was already a defensive tool prior to scourge (which along with mesmer have been the 2 big mistakes of this expansion) which gave you a few seconds more of life and damage boost before you went down. This was flexible and could be turned into more of a weapon, but again required a whole trait line devote to it.

@"Apolo.5942" said:

-Warriors adrenaline serves no defensive purpose unless you trait for it, which is quite clearly NOT the case for mesmer.-Necros Life force was already a defensive tool prior to scourge (which along with mesmer have been the 2 big mistakes of this expansion) which gave you a few seconds more of life and damage boost before you went down. This was flexible and could be turned into more of a weapon, but again required a whole trait line devote to it.

I'm starting to think that you just play the game recently. So I'll leave this link for you : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/Those are core mechanic of gw2 professions since 2012 not just prior to PoF as you said.

@Arbalest.4506 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:

-Warriors adrenaline serves no defensive purpose unless you trait for it, which is quite clearly NOT the case for mesmer.-Necros Life force was already a defensive tool prior to scourge (which along with mesmer have been the 2 big mistakes of this expansion) which gave you a few seconds more of life and damage boost before you went down. This was flexible and could be turned into more of a weapon, but again required a whole trait line devote to it.

Weather its a core mechanic or not is it not really relevant to the discussion of weather its is a passive or not.

Put bluntly, if it does not add to your "Actions per Second" statistic, then its a passive.

Generating clones which add to your damage, heal you and are used as ammunition for shatter skills, for the most part do not add to your APS. They are a byproduct of skills you would have used any way to increase your damage, and they require no traits to become a defensive/healing tool either.

@"Apolo.5942" said:Put bluntly, if it does not add to your "Actions per Second" statistic, then its a passive.Ah.

Then by that definition they are active, since clone generation drive the continous use of shatters, or in other words more actions from the player.Each clone generated also require doing an action and having a target (yes, even scepter 1 require you to push 1 or another weapon skill at least once), in comparison to say... an unused healing signet on the warrior which just keep healing no matter what.

(also they require a trait to heal)

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:Put bluntly, if it does not add to your "Actions per Second" statistic, then its a passive.Ah.

No, the shatters them selves, yes they are an active. The clone generation on the other hand are passives and the problem is that they double as defensive tools.

You dont hit pistol 4 to generate a clone. You hitting to front load several Ks of damage, as a bonus you get a clone.

There are no skills that are actually used which sole objective is to generate clones when used, this would contribute to your APS and have the sole focus of generating clones. They always a byproduct of doing something else which is what the skill is actually for.Sword 3 is a gap closer and an inmovilicer, but wait, you also get a clone, because reasons...

Wow I can't even. Ok anet go head. Nerf what he's asking for. But then make Chrono bunk viable again pls ???

@jportell.2197 said:Wow I can't even. Ok anet go head. Nerf what he's asking for. But then make Chrono bunk viable again pls ???

They cant nerf main mesmer mechanic . THey would have to delete class and offer us a new one. Doubt they want it :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

@Apolo.5942 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Apolo.5942 said:Put bluntly, if it does not add to your "Actions per Second" statistic, then its a passive.Ah.

That doesnt even make sense. You are implying that mesmers dont use shatters, they only keep getting random clone after random clone?

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Apolo.5942 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Apolo.5942 said:Put bluntly, if it does not add to your "Actions per Second" statistic, then its a passive.Ah.

I also want to know how a mesmer is getting these clones from literally doing nothing. On a viable build

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Apolo.5942 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Apolo.5942 said:Put bluntly, if it does not add to your "Actions per Second" statistic, then its a passive.Ah.

No im implying that mesmers get clones for using skills they would use any way and are not meant to solely generate said clones, while simultaneously getting a lot of defense through the clones simply being there. This conjunction of things makes their defense something passive, that just gets generated because they use skills. And while other class might get something akin to it, they have to pay for it in traits, while the mesmer does not.

you do realize that most skills in this game will have a chance to do more than 1 thing. many skills are combo finishers or fields yet there is no standalone finisher/field that does nothing but just that. so for thieves that try to stealth with smoke + leap for example you may abuse the 'passive' secondary affect to get hit by the thief and reveal them, thats just the game.

@MUDse.7623 said:you do realize that most skills in this game will have a chance to do more than 1 thing. many skills are combo finishers or fields for example yet there is no standalone finisher/field that does nothing but just that. so for thieves that try to stealth with smoke + leap for example you may abuse the 'passive' secondary affect to get hit by the thief and reveal them, thats just the game.

COMBO being the operative word there, you have to do MULTIPLE things to get the extra result. As opposed to using a skill to do something and getting a freebie defensive tool because reasons...

Your premise that illusions are a defensive mechanic is wrong.The exception being for everything that isn't body blocking some projectiles, and there are only few situations that is an effective option.

No one at any decent skill level is fooled by clones unless shuffled (so the one utility on a 20 sec cooldown or axes), and on axe puts them in the right position to cleave or easily just doge an incoming shatter.

You tipped your hand of your skill level if you believe illusions act as anything else but a kill able resource like adrenaline or initiative.

Also mesmer has no passive defenses except for the one stealth trait in dueling, which is awful and more often screws you in some way.

What you are asking is the same as removing any ini regeneration for thieves. If that is how we are going to balance the game on a whole to make classes more limited, fine. However to single out mesmer in this way and nerf on the basis of your uncogent argument is only doing a disservice to the game, only to satisfy noobs who get stomped by a noob stomper class.

Defy Pain, Transmute, Self-Regulating Defenses are "PASSIVE" defenses.

Summoning a clone is a secondary effect and offers little defensive utility, unless you are the type of bronze to gold player who gets lost in clones or keeps auto targeting on, with no promote target. The game shouldn't balance for you because once this novelty wears off it's woefully abusable to counter, and shut down. There is no reason to make it worse.

@Apolo.5942 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:you do realize that most skills in this game will have a chance to do more than 1 thing. many skills are combo finishers or fields for example yet there is no standalone finisher/field that does nothing but just that. so for thieves that try to stealth with smoke + leap for example you may abuse the 'passive' secondary affect to get hit by the thief and reveal them, thats just the game.

yeah but i use snipers cover + heart seeker , 2 actions that will result in : projectile block, damage , stealth, movement => 4 results. even more if i use black powder wich is a self finishing combo field.and it is just an example. if i have a skill that deals damage and immobilze that is also more then 1 thing.

:facepalm:

:facepalm:Too

The OP doesn't know what a passive skill or trait is but wants to nerf a class. I can't even right now. :facepalm:

@Apolo.5942 said:Been recking on a Mesmer lately and i have realized that for all the complains about warrior, Mesmer has just as many if not MORE passive defenses.

Why? Because all its defensive tools double as offensive tools as well, thus you dont really choose between the 2 or sacrifice one for the other.

-You doge which creates a clone (you defensive mechanism) and triggers additional damage from your clones.-You do Axe 2 which inflicts a bunch of conditions AND creates a clone which again is your main defensive mechanism.-You Jaunt and Inflict Confusion.-You axe 3, reposition, set for shatter, make a mess of targeting and clones positioning, which again is your defensive mechanism and inflict a bunch of confusion.-Pistol 4 does a truckload of damage AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.-Scepter 1 inflicts torment AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.

List goes on and on and on. And the problem is, these are not tactical choices, they simply happen when you go on the offensive. No other class, except Elementis has this overlap of offensive and defensive triggers.

------------------ALL of the above heal you when they trigger.

CLARIFIYING PASSIVE:In this game, passives, are things that get triggered while doing something else, and doing that something else might or might not be related to the purpose of the triggered passive. They are bonus things that happen while doing something else.An example often thrown around is ADRENAL HEALTH. This is a healing that gets triggered When you use your burst skills. You have to trigger burst skills any way to play the warrior class, and it is not the objective or main function of burst skills to give you Adrenal Health, it just happens.Same goes for this skills, they have an offensive function, but end up producing defensive tools as well.

Alright I hope this will be very clear for you.

Passive is something that triggers without player input e.g. Desperate Decoy (Cast Decoy when you fall under a health threshold)

Every single thing you listed requires player input, meaning they are active, not passive. Clones are not a defensive mechanic, if anything they're an offensive resource that can be removed by other players. The healing on trigger is part of the Signet of the Ether as well which requires the active input of you using literally any of those skills you listed. People use the phantasm skills in order to deal damage and summon clones because that's how they get to use their shatters, that's not passive in any form. If we go by your definition of passive any skill with more than one effect is passive because multiple things are happening. Oh wow you used Backbreaker, that's so passive because you also damaged me while knocking me down. See how ridiculous that sounds?

In short, you're wrong and spreading misinformation on another poorly thought out crusade against Mesmer.

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Apolo.5942 said:Been recking on a Mesmer lately and i have realized that for all the complains about warrior, Mesmer has just as many if not MORE passive defenses.

Why? Because all its defensive tools double as offensive tools as well, thus you dont really choose between the 2 or sacrifice one for the other.

-You doge which creates a clone (you defensive mechanism) and triggers additional damage from your clones.-You do Axe 2 which inflicts a bunch of conditions AND creates a clone which again is your main defensive mechanism.-You Jaunt and Inflict Confusion.-You axe 3, reposition, set for shatter, make a mess of targeting and clones positioning, which again is your defensive mechanism and inflict a bunch of confusion.-Pistol 4 does a truckload of damage AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.-Scepter 1 inflicts torment AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.

List goes on and on and on. And the problem is, these are not tactical choices, they simply happen when you go on the offensive. No other class, except Elementis has this overlap of offensive and defensive triggers.

------------------ALL of the above heal you when they trigger.

CLARIFIYING PASSIVE:In this game, passives, are things that get triggered while doing something else, and doing that something else might or might not be related to the purpose of the triggered passive. They are bonus things that happen while doing something else.An example often thrown around is ADRENAL HEALTH. This is a healing that gets triggered When you use your burst skills. You have to trigger burst skills any way to play the warrior class, and it is not the objective or main function of burst skills to give you Adrenal Health, it just happens.Same goes for this skills, they have an offensive function, but end up producing defensive tools as well.

No, that is short sighted and one of the many reasons mesmer is as op as it is.

Mirror images is an active active clone generator, you use it and it creates 2 clones period end, and even then its debatable since its function is to be a stun breaker, furthering the trend that images just get passively spawned when the mesmer uses skill that have other purposes or would use any way.