It's a game of dodges.

Hello everyone,

I post this thread here in PvP section, but it works for WvW as well, especially for roaming or simple 1vs1 duels.

What I would love to see is a list, or even better a completely detailed video made by a competent player in which it's shown the skills in the game you MUST dodge.

We all know that landing perfect dodges is what makes a player more skilled than another who for example random dodge autoattacks.

An example would be:

Dragonhunter: Always dodge the F1 pull ability.

Holosmith: Always dodge Prime Light Beam.

Revenant. Always dodge staff5.

Reaper: Always dodge Shroud5 and immediately kite and run away as soon as you see the Reaper enter Shroud mode.

Warrior: always dodge shield stun and bull's charge.

This is just a raw example of what I am meaning.

Then you can add, this skill must be dodges but if you ahve block or evades available on your class you can use those yada yada yada.

A video like this with practical demonstrations would help a lot new players who are jumping into pvp or wanna duel a friend or roam in wvw.

For example when I find a condi or hybrid mirage in wvw while roaming I have really zero clue what I should dodge, instead dodging the burst of power mirage is easier and pretty telegraphed.

I hope some good player maybe with a youtube channel wanna start this project, probably focusing mainly on meta pvp and meta roaming specs which are the ones you encouter more often around.

What do you guys think?

I have always wanted a video like this as well. However, i'm going to explain a few things that might clear the air as to why something like this hasn't been made yet.

First, games played in ESL tier are much different than ranked arena games. One detail of this is the idea of double dodging. For the most part, most players in ranked games wouldn't blow all their dodges. However in ESL, Double dodging is a good way to mitigate a burst coming from the entire opposing team because if they are focused on someone, the burst will be significant. Double dodging gives the players team enough time to react with group heals and support, thus mitigating a teams coordinated effort to kill a player. So in ESL games, you will notice quite often players double dodging.

Second, is that very good players know how to mask their bursts by being very unpredictable. For example. Sindrener is one of the pioneering thieves to put forth the strategy to "Dodge Steal" because Steal when dodged kills a thief's sustain if they use Improvisation. Dodging Steal can be easy if the thief in question is very predictable. IE; Using Black Powder and heartseeker+Steal. Once you've identified that that's how the enemy thief bursts, you can from there on predict that whenever they use black powder, they will attempt to spike you, thus you can easily dodge their steal, kill their sustain and eventually defeat the enemy thief.

A good thief will use Steal in a much much different manner, using it not to land their biggest bursts, but to interrupt key skills, or to use it on you at any random moment in order to ENSURE that they can continue sustaining, even if they had the opportunity to burst you successfully.

Third, one of the most important things is that this game isn't so much about executing players through bursts or avoiding attacks, but rather, maintaining enough counter pressure in order to play offensively, and forcing you to play defensively. Pressure can't be mitigated through cycling of dodges or having lots of invulns and Block skills. A good example of this is thief clusterbomb. Clusterbombing a player while they are melleing you is a good way to relieve that melle pressure, while at the same time, instilling pressure to force the enemy to go on the defensive. Dodging clusterbomb is kind of silly because of how low initiative it is, and is just a small part of a thief's arsenal to take you down.

So to put it all together, Simply dodging this, blocking that, isn't exactly the best way to beat someone. There are key skills in the game that you should avoid, such as Thief steal, Warrior F1, or Holosmith PF 5. But sometimes, a holosmith in PF will simply kill you by auto-attacking you to death under quickness (Pressure).

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:I have always wanted a video like this as well. However, i'm going to explain a few things that might clear the air as to why something like this hasn't been made yet.

First, games played in ESL tier are much different than ranked arena games. One detail of this is the idea of double dodging. For the most part, most players in ranked games wouldn't blow all their dodges. However in ESL, Double dodging is a good way to mitigate a burst coming from the entire opposing team because if they are focused on someone, the burst will be significant. Double dodging gives the players team enough time to react with group heals and support, thus mitigating a teams coordinated effort to kill a player. So in ESL games, you will notice quite often players double dodging.

Second, is that very good players know how to mask their bursts by being very unpredictable. For example. Sindrener is one of the pioneering thieves to put forth the strategy to "Dodge Steal" because Steal when dodged kills a thief's sustain if they use Improvisation. Dodging Steal can be easy if the thief in question is very predictable. IE; Using Black Powder and heartseeker+Steal. Once you've identified that that's how the enemy thief bursts, you can from there on predict that whenever they use black powder, they will attempt to spike you, thus you can easily dodge their steal, kill their sustain and eventually defeat the enemy thief.

A good thief will use Steal in a much much different manner, using it not to land their biggest bursts, but to interrupt key skills, or to use it on you at any random moment in order to ENSURE that they can continue sustaining, even if they had the opportunity to burst you successfully.

Third, one of the most important things is that this game isn't so much about executing players through bursts or avoiding attacks, but rather, maintaining enough counter pressure in order to play offensively, and forcing you to play defensively. Pressure can't be mitigated through cycling of dodges or having lots of invulns and Block skills. A good example of this is thief clusterbomb. Clusterbombing a player while they are melleing you is a good way to relieve that melle pressure, while at the same time, instilling pressure to force the enemy to go on the defensive. Dodging clusterbomb is kind of silly because of how low initiative it is, and is just a small part of a thief's arsenal to take you down.

So to put it all together, Simply dodging this, blocking that, isn't exactly the best way to beat someone. There are key skills in the game that you should avoid, such as Thief steal, Warrior F1, or Holosmith PF 5. But sometimes, a holosmith in PF will simply kill you by auto-attacking you to death under quickness (Pressure).

Thanks for the feedback, i wasnt thinking a lot into team fights but probably a guide how to face profession by profession.

For example while roaming if you encounter a dragonhunter and dodge his f2 you are already ahead in the fight.and you can already take advantage of it.Same if you dodge holo3 and deny his stab(if he doesn't run elixir u) you are already in a pretty good spot ready to counterplay the holo. This skill can also be blocked, but.some skills like holo elite or revenant staff5 must be dodged or evaded forcely.Seeing it in a video would be very explanatory, seeing the difference if you dodge or dont dodge even if you use a stunbreak right after.

It's also a game of sustain & immortality & not taking damage no matter what.

dodge every cc or dieeverything else is situationalthe harder the cc the harder you dodge

For any teaching on how skilled dodge is..I have this one:

A good demonstration on how nice this game has became ;)Timing dodge is essential .... or not ...

A daredevil in full nomad's gear (toughness, vitality, healing power) and daredevil runes (he has obviously a guaranteed crit chance after dodging).

Always good for trolling or stealth rezzing but literally can't kill an afk player before participation runs out.

@topic:A significant number of hard hitting skills are impossible to dodge, so the game has become rotation and prediction oriented.

E.g. Soulbeast:Will start on longbow and when you come close cast smokescale smoke field and GS leap into it to stealth followed by a maul (GS2) out of stealth which cost you 50 to 75% of you HP. You simply have to know that rotation. There is no visible indicator.

E.g. Evasion WeaverBurst him after he left water or fight him forever.

E.g. SpelbreakerCount until 10 after every full counter and predict the next one or watch him sustain your damage forever.

E.g. HolosmithDodge everything when he glows (forge) or get rekt then counterburst and beg you are faster than he can cast his turret waterfield heals.

E.g. Power ShiroDodge the opening phase traversal burst or die (well at least in wvw as staff5 was nerfed in spvp), then wait till he randomly spammed his blocks and counterburst (pause for 3s when he pops infuse light)

None of these strategies is about timing dodges. The only spec that really suffers when its skills are dodged and whose skills are actually dodgeable is core warrior. A spec that is mostly countered via dodges is reaper, but even reaper shroud is only predictable but not dodgeable.

I wish tbis was a game of dodges but when Rangerlongbow 2 last longer then a dodge its insufficient. When you dodge gastly claw and still get with for 3.5k after the dosge its insufficient. When you have pulsing cc like mesmer well its insufficient. When rev uses sword transveral and u dodge and atill get hit with3k its insufficient...do i need to go on?

@KrHome.1920 said:A daredevil in full nomad's gear (toughness, vitality, healing power) and daredevil runes (he has obviously a guaranteed crit chance after dodging).

Always good for trolling or stealth rezzing but literally can't kill an afk player before participation runs out.

@topic:A significant number of hard hitting skills are impossible to dodge, so the game has become rotation and prediction oriented.

E.g. Soulbeast:Will start on longbow and when you come close cast smokescale smoke field and GS leap into it to stealth followed by a maul (GS2) out of stealth which cost you 50 to 75% of you HP. You simply have to know that rotation. There is no visible indicator.

E.g. Evasion WeaverBurst him after he left water or fight him forever.

E.g. SpelbreakerCount until 10 after every full counter and predict the next one or watch him sustain your damage forever.

E.g. HolosmithDodge everything when he glows (forge) or get rekt then counterburst and beg you are faster than he can cast his turret waterfield heals.

E.g. Power ShiroDodge the opening phase traversal burst or die (well at least in wvw as staff5 was nerfed in spvp), then wait till he randomly spammed his blocks and counterburst (pause for 3s when he pops infuse light)

None of these strategies is about timing dodges. The only spec that really suffers when its skills are dodged and whose skills are actually dodgeable is core warrior. A spec that is mostly countered via dodges is reaper, but even reaper shroud is only predictable but not dodgeable.

Still perfect and timing dodges is an art which makes a player good or bad.

Sometimes i roam with my holosmith and i encounter once in while crazy good warriors (which i know are dodge spammers), but seriously they outplay me so badly landing perfect dodges on every single crucial skill i try to land that the fight seems scripted. And most of the times they 100-0 me and i dont drop them under 90% health.

Those players are really good at reading the opponent and really good at landing those dodges properly.That's why baiting dodges comes in handy a lot against good players, or it's very hard to have a chance to win.

Fighting against warriors will really make you a better player, you will learn to dodge shield stun, bull's charge, kite away if he is about to pressure you with burst skills, use your blocks properly etc.

But for example against axe condi/hybrid mirage what are the things I should dodge?Because it all seems a damn mess and nonstop spam of condis no matter what you dodge one second later you are flooded with condis anyway.

look under matchups, key skills to avoid are listedhttps://www.godsofpvp.net/guides

@whoknocks.4935 said:

It's difficult to build such a list because it's all very situational.

For example:

Warrior: always dodge shield stun and bull's charge.

As an engi, I don't want to dodge Shield Bash because I can instead react with Overcharged Shot if I'm on rifle and they don't have stability and I suspect that Last Stand is on cooldown (goddamn passive procs), or I can react with Static Shot for a quick blind if I'm on pistols and they don't have resistance. I always want to dodge or block Bull's Charge though because it evades during travel where Shield Bash does not... unless I have stability, in which case I probably want to eat the attack and use their failed cc animation against them while I start casting Prime Light Beam or Blowtorch or a point-blank Grenade Barrage.

unless ranger is casting from stealth, Dodge longbow #4 (PBS).Dodge WI, stow weapon when they use GS #4 or Dodge if you ended up hitting them anyway.

one interesting thing I'd like to add is the mimdgames that go on in the beginning of a fight vs good spellbreaker and me (soulbeast)warrior knows I want to proc his shout stab trait, so he's gonna be very careful and react not to my dmg, but only to my CC. the good warriors will try to preserve their stab from trait as long as possible so that when you nearly run out of CC skills his stab will proc and your stun chain is ruined.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:I have always wanted a video like this as well. However, i'm going to explain a few things that might clear the air as to why something like this hasn't been made yet.

First, games played in ESL tier are much different than ranked arena games. One detail of this is the idea of double dodging. For the most part, most players in ranked games wouldn't blow all their dodges. However in ESL, Double dodging is a good way to mitigate a burst coming from the entire opposing team because if they are focused on someone, the burst will be significant. Double dodging gives the players team enough time to react with group heals and support, thus mitigating a teams coordinated effort to kill a player. So in ESL games, you will notice quite often players double dodging.

Second, is that very good players know how to mask their bursts by being very unpredictable. For example. Sindrener is one of the pioneering thieves to put forth the strategy to "Dodge Steal" because Steal when dodged kills a thief's sustain if they use Improvisation. Dodging Steal can be easy if the thief in question is very predictable. IE; Using Black Powder and heartseeker+Steal. Once you've identified that that's how the enemy thief bursts, you can from there on predict that whenever they use black powder, they will attempt to spike you, thus you can easily dodge their steal, kill their sustain and eventually defeat the enemy thief.

A good thief will use Steal in a much much different manner, using it not to land their biggest bursts, but to interrupt key skills, or to use it on you at any random moment in order to ENSURE that they can continue sustaining, even if they had the opportunity to burst you successfully.

Third, one of the most important things is that this game isn't so much about executing players through bursts or avoiding attacks, but rather, maintaining enough counter pressure in order to play offensively, and forcing you to play defensively. Pressure can't be mitigated through cycling of dodges or having lots of invulns and Block skills. A good example of this is thief clusterbomb. Clusterbombing a player while they are melleing you is a good way to relieve that melle pressure, while at the same time, instilling pressure to force the enemy to go on the defensive. Dodging clusterbomb is kind of silly because of how low initiative it is, and is just a small part of a thief's arsenal to take you down.

So to put it all together, Simply dodging this, blocking that, isn't exactly the best way to beat someone. There are key skills in the game that you should avoid, such as Thief steal, Warrior F1, or Holosmith PF 5. But sometimes, a holosmith in PF will simply kill you by auto-attacking you to death under quickness (Pressure).

Adding onto what justice said, therr are some attacks that you have to find some other means of avoiding. Seven sided strike, and rangers volley fof instance. You cant actually dodge the full duration of thede attacks. .any people try and wind up getting themselves killed.

These mkves are really strong at pressuring, because thry do so much damage quickly, and most professions except thief and mesmer can't break thr targeting. The only means of countering is to rely on passives, body block, break li e of sight, or guard.

TDLR:In gw2 gimmicks makes players feel strong(gw2 is ment to do that and carry/help most casuals to feel strong), rather than be players making classes strong with personal and cooperative skill.

Btw the sync between clients in this game is awfull... one of the many reasons this game had to bail out of ESL.

Working as intended.....

I play core guardian gs/sword and one of the ways to counter holo without dodge is I wait when the get in holo mode and about to cast shockwave followed by the burst combo, I pop VoC (aegis, stability and protection) then cast symbol and GS2. If the engi is not smart enough to back off or dodge, the fight is typically over. I may also use litany of wrath heal before dealing damage (depending on my hp).

I do this strategy also with warrior, Mesmer, BM and other guardians. It works most of the time without needing to dodge. They think they got you, but they are being baited.

For Mesmer, damage comes from multiple sources often at the same time so it's mostly a case of looking for key skills from the Mesmer that indicate a full burst is coming:

• For power Mes it's almost always Mirror Blade that leads into a burst, so dodge or block as you see Mirror Blade being cast and you'll often avoid the entire burst if clones aren't staggered. Only block this if you have enough health to eat the damage from the unblockable Mirror Blade. Not much point interrupting this as the clone burst will still occur regardless of the Mesmer being CC'd or not. Also with Mesmer GS it's worth avoiding Phantasmal Beserker which is a pretty obvious animation. This often comes before a Mirror Blade burst so interrupting this can mess up a Mesmer's burst rotation.

• Definitely dodge, interrupt or block a Power Mesmer casting Confusing Images. This skill does a lot of damage now on a power build so really really don't eat it. Long channel so good interrupt bait.

• For Condi/hybrid Mirage it's Axes of Symmetry you want to dodge as like Mirror Blade this is indicative of a burst coming your way. It's worth noting that Lingering Thoughts leaves Mirage quite vulnerable in melee range when used so, if you can eat the damage, use this time to pummel the Mirage either causing them to take loads of damage or opt to use Mirage cloaks to cover the cast, forcing the Mirage to waste endurance.

• Illusionary Leap is similarly indicative of a burst coming your way so dodge or block when the clone leaps at you.

• If a Mesmer uses The Prestige, wait 2 seconds and then dodge. You'll probably miss an entire stealth burst.

Probably a bunch of other stuff to dodge too. But those are the things that come to mind whilst waiting for my dinner to cook =)

Dark Souls is a game of dodges. Guild Wars 2 is a game of instantaneous/passive, protracted invuln states.