Holosmith is overpowered

Just a quick post for some info/opinions from different people.

I often hear people saying that Holosmith is overpowered (coming from a wvw roaming perspective). As a current holosmith main I don't really feel that way but maybe I am falling into the trap where people don't think their own class is overpowered (such as people that defend condi mirages or perma-stealth for example). There is also a chance that my definition of 'overpowered' is different from everyone elses. I understand that holosmith can output a lot of damage and also has very strong sustain, but I don't think they can do it better than other power classes.

The main reason that I don't consider holosmith overpowered is because when I think about other power classes, they can do a lot of things that I don't see holosmiths doing.

For example:Mirages and Deadeyes can basically kill people from stealth almost instantly.Soulbeasts and reapers can easily 1 shot people with their super strong attacks. (Plenty of videos around of rangers/reapers hitting 20k + hits)Soulbeasts have very high damage output and can output that damage from a very long range (even longer than what the skill tooltips claim).Warriors have some of the highest sustain I have seen (even when wearing full berserker armor).

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say holosmith is not very strong, but I don't know think they are OP by any stretch of the imagination.So do you consider holosmith to be an overpowered class for roaming and why or why not?

If you want to get an idea of why people might consider Holosmith overpowered, your best best isn't to compare it with other current meta builds. In a sense, all the current meta builds are severely overpowered compared to all the non-meta builds.

The best way to get a sense of it is to fight a meta holosmith with (for example) a core engineer or scrapper playing a similar build. Eg. Core Rifle vs Rifle Holo. Any non-meta build ought to work for this, but I think it's most instructive to compare engi variations.

• Note how much better you have to be on Core or Scrapper than on Holo in order to kill them
• Note how many more must-dodge skills they have while still keeping all the Core gameplay
• Note how much more damage they do while not really sacrificing any defense or sustain

There was a time in the game's history (~2015ish) where meta builds were maybe 10% better than other off-meta builds, and if you played a non-meta spec well, you could easily compete. That time has long past. To face a current meta build with an off-meta spec, you probably have to be twice as good as your opponents, if not more.

Other fun tests:

• try beating a soulbeast on core ranger
• try beating mirage with core mesmer

@knite.1542 said:Just a quick post for some info/opinions from different people.

I often hear people saying that Holosmith is overpowered (coming from a wvw roaming perspective). As a current holosmith main I don't really feel that way but maybe I am falling into the trap where people don't think their own class is overpowered (such as people that defend condi mirages or perma-stealth for example). There is also a chance that my definition of 'overpowered' is different from everyone elses. I understand that holosmith can output a lot of damage and also has very strong sustain, but I don't think they can do it better than other power classes.

The main reason that I don't consider holosmith overpowered is because when I think about other power classes, they can do a lot of things that I don't see holosmiths doing.

For example:Mirages and Deadeyes can basically kill people from stealth almost instantly.Soulbeasts and reapers can easily 1 shot people with their super strong attacks. (Plenty of videos around of rangers/reapers hitting 20k + hits)Soulbeasts have very high damage output and can output that damage from a very long range (even longer than what the skill tooltips claim).Warriors have some of the highest sustain I have seen (even when wearing full berserker armor).

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say holosmith is not very strong, but I don't know think they are OP by any stretch of the imagination.So do you consider holosmith to be an overpowered class for roaming and why or why not?

I feel Holosmiths are awesome! The problem is that everyone is use to Core Engineer and Scrapper not being as versatile or effective... And also limited to 1 (subpar) weapon set (no, kits were subpar too compared to actual weapon designs and forced a loss of 1 slot skill on this profession to have access to 2 subpar weapons)... This stuff is Just like what happened with Core Ranger, Druid and Soulbeast… Old stuff wasn't great, then things improved and players are still stuck in the same mindset.

You peeps really don't want the devs killing off good stuff, so you should fight for improvements to core and 1st gen elites instead.

@Swagger.1459 said:

@knite.1542 said:Just a quick post for some info/opinions from different people.

I often hear people saying that Holosmith is overpowered (coming from a wvw roaming perspective). As a current holosmith main I don't really feel that way but maybe I am falling into the trap where people don't think their own class is overpowered (such as people that defend condi mirages or perma-stealth for example). There is also a chance that my definition of 'overpowered' is different from everyone elses. I understand that holosmith can output a lot of damage and also has very strong sustain, but I don't think they can do it better than other power classes.

The main reason that I don't consider holosmith overpowered is because when I think about other power classes, they can do a lot of things that I don't see holosmiths doing.

For example:Mirages and Deadeyes can basically kill people from stealth almost instantly.Soulbeasts and reapers can easily 1 shot people with their super strong attacks. (Plenty of videos around of rangers/reapers hitting 20k + hits)Soulbeasts have very high damage output and can output that damage from a very long range (even longer than what the skill tooltips claim).Warriors have some of the highest sustain I have seen (even when wearing full berserker armor).

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say holosmith is not very strong, but I don't know think they are OP by any stretch of the imagination.So do you consider holosmith to be an overpowered class for roaming and why or why not?

Agreed. Those arguing that holosmith is op because it is better than core are stuck with the mindset that core professions should be as powerful as elites.

I dont think holo is to overpowered, they just bring a lot of cc and have good damage reduction, but if someone is telling you its op they probably cant play it and dont know what too dodge.

Coro said some really good stuff. Fighting holo on core engi is really hard due to a lack of stab and stunbreaks but it isn't an unwinnable fight. I destroy soulbeasts core ranger, but cant say that about core mesmer and mirage, that fight is brutal.

With all that said is I personally dont like holo cause it felt like warrior meets necro and it's all about knowing when to pop into holo mode (shroud) and then pop out. Although I am one of those wierd people stuck on core engi trying to make it work XD

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@knite.1542 said:Just a quick post for some info/opinions from different people.

I often hear people saying that Holosmith is overpowered (coming from a wvw roaming perspective). As a current holosmith main I don't really feel that way but maybe I am falling into the trap where people don't think their own class is overpowered (such as people that defend condi mirages or perma-stealth for example). There is also a chance that my definition of 'overpowered' is different from everyone elses. I understand that holosmith can output a lot of damage and also has very strong sustain, but I don't think they can do it better than other power classes.

The main reason that I don't consider holosmith overpowered is because when I think about other power classes, they can do a lot of things that I don't see holosmiths doing.

For example:Mirages and Deadeyes can basically kill people from stealth almost instantly.Soulbeasts and reapers can easily 1 shot people with their super strong attacks. (Plenty of videos around of rangers/reapers hitting 20k + hits)Soulbeasts have very high damage output and can output that damage from a very long range (even longer than what the skill tooltips claim).Warriors have some of the highest sustain I have seen (even when wearing full berserker armor).

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say holosmith is not very strong, but I don't know think they are OP by any stretch of the imagination.So do you consider holosmith to be an overpowered class for roaming and why or why not?

It should be a tradeoff. I don't see tradeoff in holo, just softened complexity and more powercreep once again.

@knite.1542 said:Just a quick post for some info/opinions from different people.

I often hear people saying that Holosmith is overpowered (coming from a wvw roaming perspective). As a current holosmith main I don't really feel that way but maybe I am falling into the trap where people don't think their own class is overpowered (such as people that defend condi mirages or perma-stealth for example). There is also a chance that my definition of 'overpowered' is different from everyone elses. I understand that holosmith can output a lot of damage and also has very strong sustain, but I don't think they can do it better than other power classes.

The main reason that I don't consider holosmith overpowered is because when I think about other power classes, they can do a lot of things that I don't see holosmiths doing.

For example:Mirages and Deadeyes can basically kill people from stealth almost instantly.Soulbeasts and reapers can easily 1 shot people with their super strong attacks. (Plenty of videos around of rangers/reapers hitting 20k + hits)Soulbeasts have very high damage output and can output that damage from a very long range (even longer than what the skill tooltips claim).Warriors have some of the highest sustain I have seen (even when wearing full berserker armor).

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say holosmith is not very strong, but I don't know think they are OP by any stretch of the imagination.So do you consider holosmith to be an overpowered class for roaming and why or why not?

Your topic is oddly named. Just saying.

@coro.3176 said:If you want to get an idea of why people might consider Holosmith overpowered, your best best isn't to compare it with other current meta builds. In a sense, all the current meta builds are severely overpowered compared to all the non-meta builds.

The best way to get a sense of it is to fight a meta holosmith with (for example) a core engineer or scrapper playing a similar build. Eg. Core Rifle vs Rifle Holo. Any non-meta build ought to work for this, but I think it's most instructive to compare engi variations.

• Note how much better you have to be on Core or Scrapper than on Holo in order to kill them
• Note how many more must-dodge skills they have while still keeping all the Core gameplay
• Note how much more damage they do while not really sacrificing any defense or sustain

There was a time in the game's history (~2015ish) where meta builds were maybe 10% better than other off-meta builds, and if you played a non-meta spec well, you could easily compete. That time has long past. To face a current meta build with an off-meta spec, you probably have to be twice as good as your opponents, if not more.

Other fun tests:

• try beating a soulbeast on core ranger
• try beating mirage with core mesmer

Your test proves nothing. Pretty much any meta build is going to hands down stomp a non meta build. You can't prove Holosmith is overpowered because it rolls builds that aren't near its power level. Meta builds are inherently more powerful than non-meta builds. That's the way meta works. You would need to compare meta to meta. How powerful it is in relation to other builds that are deemed powerful is the only way you are going to figure out if it is OP.

By your logic, if a person were able to come up with a Core Engineer build that was meta and it was able to beat a non-meta Core build one could conclude that Core Engineer is OP.

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@knite.1542 said:Just a quick post for some info/opinions from different people.

I often hear people saying that Holosmith is overpowered (coming from a wvw roaming perspective). As a current holosmith main I don't really feel that way but maybe I am falling into the trap where people don't think their own class is overpowered (such as people that defend condi mirages or perma-stealth for example). There is also a chance that my definition of 'overpowered' is different from everyone elses. I understand that holosmith can output a lot of damage and also has very strong sustain, but I don't think they can do it better than other power classes.

The main reason that I don't consider holosmith overpowered is because when I think about other power classes, they can do a lot of things that I don't see holosmiths doing.

For example:Mirages and Deadeyes can basically kill people from stealth almost instantly.Soulbeasts and reapers can easily 1 shot people with their super strong attacks. (Plenty of videos around of rangers/reapers hitting 20k + hits)Soulbeasts have very high damage output and can output that damage from a very long range (even longer than what the skill tooltips claim).Warriors have some of the highest sustain I have seen (even when wearing full berserker armor).

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say holosmith is not very strong, but I don't know think they are OP by any stretch of the imagination.So do you consider holosmith to be an overpowered class for roaming and why or why not?

You can see how that can be restrictive for future elite specializations. Elite specializations have access to all the traits and utility/weapon skills that core has which will not change. That means that the trade off has to come from the profession mechanic. Therefore in order to get the trade off every engineer elite spec will have to replace toolbelt skills in some way. As you add more and more elite specializations it becomes increasingly difficult to balance core engineer against every single elite spec.

imo elite specs should always be more powerful than core, and you will still be able to run core, but understand that you will be disadvantaged. This way if one elite spec is taking advantage of a core traitline to outperform the other elite specs, that traitline can be balanced without fear of inadvertently nerfing core.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@knite.1542 said:Just a quick post for some info/opinions from different people.

I often hear people saying that Holosmith is overpowered (coming from a wvw roaming perspective). As a current holosmith main I don't really feel that way but maybe I am falling into the trap where people don't think their own class is overpowered (such as people that defend condi mirages or perma-stealth for example). There is also a chance that my definition of 'overpowered' is different from everyone elses. I understand that holosmith can output a lot of damage and also has very strong sustain, but I don't think they can do it better than other power classes.

The main reason that I don't consider holosmith overpowered is because when I think about other power classes, they can do a lot of things that I don't see holosmiths doing.

For example:Mirages and Deadeyes can basically kill people from stealth almost instantly.Soulbeasts and reapers can easily 1 shot people with their super strong attacks. (Plenty of videos around of rangers/reapers hitting 20k + hits)Soulbeasts have very high damage output and can output that damage from a very long range (even longer than what the skill tooltips claim).Warriors have some of the highest sustain I have seen (even when wearing full berserker armor).

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say holosmith is not very strong, but I don't know think they are OP by any stretch of the imagination.So do you consider holosmith to be an overpowered class for roaming and why or why not?

I agree. I think if Elite specs were as powerful as the Core then you would see less incentive to upgrade to an expansion. I see complaining about power creep as pointless as it pretty much happens in most games. As you fine tune and release more and more mechanics you are invariably going to have the power level of the game increase. In the long term, most people who buy an expansion want to be more powerful than they were without it. More to the point, if Elite specs were the same power level as Core then Free to Play players would have less incentive to get an expansion. That extra power gives it that extra push to convince people to buy (in addition to the other stuff offered of course).

Instead, I think the goal should be that all Elites are at the same level of relative strength to each other. This would mean that old Elites don't become obsolete with each new expansion. Thus Scrapper and Holosmith should be brought in line with each other so that choosing one over the other doesn't make you less powerful. However, power creep was going to happen the moment they added new mechanics to the game. Players want to feel more powerful, over time.

Power creep happens in most games because most games keep increasing the levels so the entire game keeps increasing both the players killing capability as well as having to make the mobs stronger to maintain some kind of challenge, but its very hard to do this in a level capped game.I really wonder how Anet are going to handle this problem with future expansions.

The Hollowsmith is an excuse for engineer performance over the past years. I will not insult the balancing team, they do an awesome job with all other classes. Scrapper has high sustain, but compared to any other class with this feature, it is weak. It has no damage-improvements at all, which is a significant feature in elite-specializations. The support features are awesome, but it under-performs on so many levels. When you equip an elite specialization on any class, you improve it. If you do that on engineer with the Scrapper, you weaken it.

The Hollowsmith does not suit to the engineer at all. It is way too flashy and features none of our ways. It almost feels like they ignored the engineer when creating it. In addition they made the Hollowsmith incompatible with other things: The overheat-mechanic ONLY applies to the sword and the Hollowsmith specific skills. There are no heat-tiers for turrets, gadgets, elexirs, kits. Imagine the Berserker (Warrior Elite) having only access to one primal burst of one weapon, and ignoring all other selectable weapons. There are also no real passives. The Hollowsmith rises and falls with the Photon Forge. All traits effect the Photon Forge only. So in my opinion, the Hollowsmith does not want to be an engineer.

It is overpowered compared to core-engineer, which is normal for an elite-specialization.It is overpowered compared to Scrapper, which can be even done with the core-engineer.It is overpowered to every player who has only seen the two other engineer-playstyles before.If you compare the Hollowsmith to other classes and ignore the Engineer, it is average.

@HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:The Hollowsmith does not suit to the engineer at all. It is way too flashy and features none of our ways.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.

If you compare the Holosmith to other PoF Specs, and forget Weaver, renegade, FB, yeah it could be average on the 4~5 remaining e-spec.

Overpowered to me means two things:Anything you can make multiple crucial mistakes on, and still come out victorious. Not because of skillful play, although a degree of skill is required, but because the mechanics carry you through things that would otherwise be your death.And anything that requires only a very basic level of mechanical skill to pressure, or even succeed against players that are significantly better than you.

Holo is both of those things. Granted, much of what makes it that way is related to core traits as well. Double Elixir S, passive stunbreaks, high Protection uptime, etc.

I feel that yes, Holo is overpowered. However, I don't feel that it is the worst offender among the many others out there. Holo is just one of the better noob stompers and Thief killers.

@coro.3176 said:If you want to get an idea of why people might consider Holosmith overpowered, your best best isn't to compare it with other current meta builds. In a sense, all the current meta builds are severely overpowered compared to all the non-meta builds.

The best way to get a sense of it is to fight a meta holosmith with (for example) a core engineer or scrapper playing a similar build. Eg. Core Rifle vs Rifle Holo. Any non-meta build ought to work for this, but I think it's most instructive to compare engi variations.

• Note how much better you have to be on Core or Scrapper than on Holo in order to kill them
• Note how many more must-dodge skills they have while still keeping all the Core gameplay
• Note how much more damage they do while not really sacrificing any defense or sustain

There was a time in the game's history (~2015ish) where meta builds were maybe 10% better than other off-meta builds, and if you played a non-meta spec well, you could easily compete. That time has long past. To face a current meta build with an off-meta spec, you probably have to be twice as good as your opponents, if not more.

Other fun tests:

• try beating a soulbeast on core ranger
• try beating mirage with core mesmer

Also, in regards to this comment. Try fighting a Holo as a Revenant. Rev has all the necessary tools to dismantle a Holo, but you have to play perfectly to do so. You don't have get out of jail free cards on Rev like many of the other professions do. One mistake and you're toast.I was dueling a Holo for a little while yesterday who was using the tanky Pistol/Shield build. I've fought Holo's on my Rev many times before, but this was the first duel I'd had. I won I think two out of 5, which isn't bad. But I could also tell either this guy didn't play much Holo or just wasn't great (not that I'm claiming I'm good either), yet he still managed to win the majority of the fights. It was too easy for him to punish my mistakes and too risky for me to punish his.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Overpowered to me means two things:Anything you can make multiple crucial mistakes on, and still come out victorious. Not because of skillful play, although a degree of skill is required, but because the mechanics carry you through things that would otherwise be your death.And anything that requires only a very basic level of mechanical skill to pressure, or even succeed against players that are significantly better than you.

I guess that is where my difference in thought of what overpowered mean comes in. What you are describing to me just means that holosmith is an easy class to play; but I don't think a class being easy makes them overpowered. When I think overpowered I think something has a way higher potential than the competition.

Here is a different example, this one is PVE related.Banner warriors are a pretty easy class to play, and they can make mistakes in their rotation but still be pretty effective.Chronotanks however, are much more difficult to play; They have a much more complex rotation and much less room for error than a warrior.So with your definition of overpowered, it seems like you would say that bannerslaves are OP as well.Maybe that is not a perfect comparison but I think it gets my point across. What do you think about that?

@"Dace.8173" said:Your test proves nothing. Pretty much any meta build is going to hands down stomp a non meta build. You can't prove Holosmith is overpowered because it rolls builds that aren't near its power level. Meta builds are inherently more powerful than non-meta builds. That's the way meta works. You would need to compare meta to meta. How powerful it is in relation to other builds that are deemed powerful is the only way you are going to figure out if it is OP.

That is the way the meta currently works, but it doesn't have to be this way. I'm not sure when you started playing, but there was a long time in the game's existence where a HUGE variety of builds were viable and within maybe 5-10% of each other in terms of strength. The "meta" build was at most 10% stronger, but a better player on a non-meta build would beat an average player on a meta build every time. Skill trumped build far more often than it does now.

Meta builds are indeed more effective than non-meta builds by definition, but how much more powerful is a matter of balance. They shouldn't be 50%+ more effective than non-meta builds. Ideally, the closer we can make the meta effectiveness to the non-meta effectiveness, the more diverse builds you'll see in the game. That's a good thing!

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Overpowered to me means two things:Anything you can make multiple crucial mistakes on, and still come out victorious. Not because of skillful play, although a degree of skill is required, but because the mechanics carry you through things that would otherwise be your death.And anything that requires only a very basic level of mechanical skill to pressure, or even succeed against players that are significantly better than you.

Holo is both of those things. Granted, much of what makes it that way is related to core traits as well. Double Elixir S, passive stunbreaks, high Protection uptime, etc.

I feel that yes, Holo is overpowered. However, I don't feel that it is the worst offender among the many others out there. Holo is just one of the better noob stompers and Thief killers.

@coro.3176 said:If you want to get an idea of why people might consider Holosmith overpowered, your best best isn't to compare it with other current meta builds. In a sense, all the current meta builds are severely overpowered compared to all the non-meta builds.

The best way to get a sense of it is to fight a meta holosmith with (for example) a core engineer or scrapper playing a similar build. Eg. Core Rifle vs Rifle Holo. Any non-meta build ought to work for this, but I think it's most instructive to compare engi variations.

• Note how much better you have to be on Core or Scrapper than on Holo in order to kill them
• Note how many more must-dodge skills they have while still keeping all the Core gameplay
• Note how much more damage they do while not really sacrificing any defense or sustain

There was a time in the game's history (~2015ish) where meta builds were maybe 10% better than other off-meta builds, and if you played a non-meta spec well, you could easily compete. That time has long past. To face a current meta build with an off-meta spec, you probably have to be twice as good as your opponents, if not more.

Other fun tests:

• try beating a soulbeast on core ranger
• try beating mirage with core mesmer

I think this is a good way to look at overpowered.

@knite.1542 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Overpowered to me means two things:Anything you can make multiple

crucial

mistakes on, and still come out victorious. Not because of skillful play, although a degree of skill is required, but because the mechanics carry you through things that would otherwise be your death.And anything that requires only a very basic level of mechanical skill to pressure, or even succeed against players that are significantly better than you.

I would say easy is a factor. If it is super easy but ridiculously powerful then it is overpowered.

@coro.3176 said:

@"Dace.8173" said:Your test proves nothing.

Pretty much any meta build is going to hands down stomp a non meta build

. You can't prove Holosmith is overpowered because it rolls builds that aren't near its power level. Meta builds are inherently more powerful than non-meta builds. That's the way meta works. You would need to compare meta to meta. How powerful it is in relation to other builds that are deemed powerful is the only way you are going to figure out if it is OP.

Sure, it doesn't have to be that way. But it is that way. Creating a test based on how you wished things were as opposed to how the game is designed tells us nothing useful. That's a separate conversation though. Your test doesn't prove your point. To determine overpowered you would need to compare an Elite to other Elites and judge it's level of power in relation to its peers. Since Elites are meant to be more powerful comparing an Elite to a Core is not going to tell you whether a specific Elite is overpowered.

As for when I started playing, six years ago. However a long time ago (in a galaxy far far away) doesn't matter right now. Games grow and change and design philosophies change and grow too. Very few games have the same level of relative power several years into their life comparative to when they were first released. In the time span you are discussing there was no such thing as Elites. When Elites were introduced they were designed to create a new tier of power. So how things worked back when this game first came out is rather moot.

Power creep is always going to happen because one of the things people want when they buy a new expansion is to be more powerful than they were before they bought that expansion. People complain when they get a new mechanic but it didn't make them stronger than before they shelled out another $60 for an expansion. I paid full price for the core game so it's another $60 for me. For Free to Play people who haven't bought anything they want to be stronger when they make that initial purchase, otherwise they are content to remain Free to Play.

An argument can be made about the power level of Elites relative to each other. As I stated before, Scrapper should be just as viable as Holosmith. Renegade should be just as viable as Herald. Dragonhunter should be just as viable as Firebrand. Tempest and Weaver should be just as viable as Spellbreaker and Holosmith. However, an argument based on the power difference between Core and Elite misses the point entirely and ignores the fact that the game has changed. It ignores the design philosophy changed. Arena Net is never going to bring the Elites down to the same power level as Core. That is going to piss off far too many people and has very little payoff to satisfy a small group that dislikes the power level of Elites. The fact that they called them Elites should tell you everything you need to know about the design philosophy. Elite specs are to professions as elite skills are to normal skills. So one can wage a futile battle to bring a change that is never going to happen or one can wage a battle that could reasonably happen (basically nerfing things to Core vs bringing all Elites in line with themselves in relative power).

Many people view holo as overpowered because of the following:

• Double access to invuln (one being passive, both of which can carry bad players but allow good players who use that time to reposition to be near unkillable in the right circumstances)
• Large access to cc (obvious intention of the spec, but can be oppressive when you take into account the high damage coupled with those ccs and the ability of the holo to use it very frequently)
• Significantly better mobility than core or scrapper (again, obvious intention and good thing to have, but coupled with everything else it has, can be annoying)
• Ability to burst to near 1 shots (Static discharge holo using demolisher ammy with photon wall and possibly even rifle turret adds significant burst onto the already very strong holo forge skills)
• Incredible sustain for what is seen as little investment (Heat therapy is a baseline trait of holo and really adds a ton of regeneration ability to the class)
• Ability to make incredibly tanky builds using inventions (Used to be able to hit 100% dmg reduction but that was nerfed, inv holo is still tanky af and has high damage from holo forge skills)
• Holo forge skills with high damage coefficients allowing players to build for more sustain/tankiness with little sacrifice to damage output.
• Significantly easier to play than past builds due to kits not being needed and therefore combos being easier to pull off consistently
• Strong stab access (compared to other engi builds) through corona burst and elixer U making good holos hard to lock down

I'm not making a claim one way or the other, but this is the feedback I've seen/experienced while playing my holo and dueling other holos in a variety of matchups.

I just want to put some comment on a couple of these.

@"Ario.8964" said:Many people view holo as overpowered because of the following:

• Double access to invuln (one being passive, both of which can carry bad players but allow good players who use that time to reposition to be near unkillable in the right circumstances)

This is not Holo specific, this is available across the board for engineers to take and they generally do. That might be an argument for it being OP, but it doesn't belong in a holo specific thread.

• Large access to cc (obvious intention of the spec, but can be oppressive when you take into account the high damage coupled with those ccs and the ability of the holo to use it very frequently)

Holo Shockwave and maybe prime light beam? I guess we can talk about stability being used for overcharged shot, but anything else is not holo specific.

• Significantly better mobility than core or scrapper (again, obvious intention and good thing to have, but coupled with everything else it has, can be annoying)

This is pretty debatable, the end of holo leap causes you to fall slightly and there is a short period where forward movement ends. Scrapper has a good mobility skill, it just animates for too long compared to it's evade.

On a side note, not running Streamlined Kits is painful even on Holo, even with leadership runes it's very easy for your swiftness to run out, especially if you run into anyone with boon hate.

• Ability to burst to near 1 shots (Static discharge holo using demolisher ammy with photon wall and possibly even rifle turret adds significant burst onto the already very strong holo forge skills)

This is generally incorrect, the class definitely has pretty bursty damage, but the meta build doesn't have 1 shot power, but it can shred the really low armor / low hp classes. If you're running photon wall and rifle turret then you're trading off either an elixir S or elixir U, so some of the above arguments are incorrect.

• Incredible sustain for what is seen as little investment (Heat therapy is a baseline trait of holo and really adds a ton of regeneration ability to the class)
• Ability to make incredibly tanky builds using inventions (Used to be able to hit 100% dmg reduction but that was nerfed, inv holo is still tanky af and has high damage from holo forge skills)

You're not going to make a tanky build that's going to have the equivalent power of the meta build. The meta build with the demolisher's amulet is about as optimized as you will get for damage and tankiness. In which case you'll be trading away damage for survivability, but in a team fight you're better off being able to down or finish off an opponent, this is much the current state of the game, damage is generally high all around and defenses are generally medium at best.

• Holo forge skills with high damage coefficients allowing players to build for more sustain/tankiness with little sacrifice to damage output.

This is generally a misconception, if it were true the meta build would lead towards a more sustain / tanky build, unless we're calling demolisher's amulet tanky?

• Significantly easier to play than past builds due to kits not being needed and therefore combos being easier to pull off consistently
• Strong stab access (compared to other engi builds) through corona burst and elixer U making good holos hard to lock down

Caith's scrapper build has a similar amount of stability, if they reduced the CD of hammer 3, 4, and 5 by 20% and fixed electro-whirl's projectile reflect it would be a very competitive build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASnUUBlchFpCmXBkfhlJji+vz79WsZKgAY8Dqg4D-jJxHAB+fBAA4BAI++D2XGAA

The main thing that holo has over this scrapper build is better condition cleansing, I prefer to run mortar kit.

I'm not making a claim one way or the other, but this is the feedback I've seen/experienced while playing my holo and dueling other holos in a variety of matchups.

Holosmiths are basically like Reapers but with stability and better CC, also able to actually make use of holo in groupfights compared to a reaper that gets hit a few times and gets drained of lifeforce.You do not have the same AoE damage capabilities, but you got MUUUCH better CC, mobility and defense overall.

Engineers have always had plenty of tools to do fancy things, holo added a super-sayan mode which all of a sudden packs a good punch and brings some burst CC/dmg to the table which core and scrapper lacks.

Now a scrapper got way more "utility" on paper, but the utility they got is way niché compared to turning into a super-sayan and smacking stuff up.

Core engi badly needs a rework. It was built around kitswapping but alot of the kits are quite underperforming and NO FUN (looking at you granade aka. fingerbreaker).

IMO just buff kits or re-rework them again and make scrappers stronger than holo at something (just something please)

Yes yes Holosmith is overpowered much like many PoF specs. The amount of BS per second these specs deliver is off the charts. I'm not sure I like to have the class existing at last to the rest of the world just because of this.

@"Noha.3749" said:Holosmiths are basically like Reapers but with stability and better CC, also able to actually make use of holo in groupfights compared to a reaper that gets hit a few times and gets drained of lifeforce.You do not have the same AoE damage capabilities, but you got MUUUCH better CC, mobility and defense overall.

Engineers have always had plenty of tools to do fancy things, holo added a super-sayan mode which all of a sudden packs a good punch and brings some burst CC/dmg to the table which core and scrapper lacks.

Now a scrapper got way more "utility" on paper, but the utility they got is way niché compared to turning into a super-sayan and smacking stuff up.

Core engi badly needs a rework. It was built around kitswapping but alot of the kits are quite underperforming and NO FUN (looking at you granade aka. fingerbreaker).

IMO just buff kits or re-rework them again and make scrappers stronger than holo at something (just something please)

All of scrappers utility is loaded onto hammer. I would say between the utility and synergy that PF brings to the table, and exceeds being superior to gyros, holo actually has more utility even on paper.

Both core and scrapper suffer from the inability to kit swap without using a utility slot. Additionally, PF is inherently a stronger kit because its limited by the heat mechanic. Both of these contribute to holosmith outperforming both its predecessor. Holo is just better mechanically designed for engineer.

I agree, kits could use a rework, but that can only happen if kits are limited to a fixed quantity on every build. Otherwise there is only so much utility you can put in all kits before multikit builds become op.

My suggestion, remove the elite+healing toolbelt skills, make them kit slots. Then give scrapper an elite spec kit like PF with its own unique skills and mechanic to fill a role(support, tank,etc.). The removed toolbelt skills can be added to the kits to buff/rework them. For example, toss elixir x could be moved into elixir gun, orbital strike can be moved into mortar kit, etc.

I run Power Soul beast and recently fell in love with scrapper (just survivability is fun). As I read this I kind of laugh because I too hear people say Holosmith is OP when I respond with 'why'? I have been killed by a holosmith maybe once or twice tops. I typically can burn them really quick and its a lot of knowing how to dodge and keep them at a distance. If someone believes they are overpowered then they might need to reconsider working on their build or trying a new class. Holosmith is a WONDERFUL class don't get me wrong. I have run holo for a while as well. I just personally think there are other classes that are better off, but it all comes down to trying to figure out how to out perform or out survive them in the end.

When I get killed I don't get mad or upset. I think to myself. How did they kill me, how can I adjust my build or fight to counter that. Then I make my build better and go after them again. Strategize don't freak out.

To all the holosmiths out there. Hello! From one ranger to an engineer I wanted to say salutations and hope to see you out there soon. :+1:

@PolarTitan.8519 said:When I get killed I don't get mad or upset. I think to myself. How did they kill me, how can I adjust my build or fight to counter that. Then I make my build better and go after them again. Strategize don't freak out.

You are such a shining example to the rest of us no doubt.

Can we list out all of this mobility that Holosmith has? I hear that a lot but all that comes to mind is forge 2, rifle 5, and rocket boots if you happen to run that.