Confusion Damage to Raid bosses — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Confusion Damage to Raid bosses

Alyster.9470Alyster.9470 Member
edited February 8, 2019 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

https://i.imgur.com/XNyQt6L.png

The above image is taken from the guild CnD and their benchmarks for the bosses using mirage.

This is mainly for raids, I think people have made enough discussions about pvp. So, I have just watched the shatter mirage and damage benchmarks on bosses mainly focused on stacking as much confusion as possible and the damage outcomes are not normal. As being the only class to apply such crazy amounts of confusion I think either the damage bosses take from confusion has to be nerfed or the general amount of confusion that mirages can stack.

I do play mirage but I am quite bored of playing it in places that you “must only play mirage” but as for power favoured bosses you can switch between many classes and have quite some options, but for largos, matthias or desmina there is literally no option for anyone to play other than mirage. I prefer different classes being able to be effective in some fights not a single class to dominate every other just because it can stack confusion.

Comments

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    Probably better posted in the Raids forum....

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Loosmaster.8263Loosmaster.8263 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You also have to keep in mind that it's players and the meta that drive what classes are used. You can use whatever class you want in a Raid but because of the status quo you may be soloing it, lol.

    Fàther - Create a mount then kill it until it's more useless than PvE. "Smart"
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  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree. Atm we have bosses where Power dps is good and then we have bosses where mirage is good.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    Not everyone can pull off those numbers though. For many players i have seen, condi sb is as good an option tbh. Well, for matthias and desmina. Largos is mirage-only definitely, byt i'd say that is as much for damage, as it is for survivability.

    Also, i tend to hate some people playing mirages on desmina a lot, because they end up teleporting outside middle circle and spawning the big walls way too often for my liking.

    yes, mirage is definitely good, but it's hardly the only reasonable condi option available as some seem to be suggesting.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Not everyone can pull off those numbers though. For many players i have seen, condi sb is as good an option tbh. Well, for matthias and desmina. Largos is mirage-only definitely, byt i'd say that is as much for damage, as it is for survivability.

    Also, i tend to hate some people playing mirages on desmina a lot, because they end up teleporting outside middle circle and spawning the big walls way too often for my liking.

    yes, mirage is definitely good, but it's hardly the only reasonable condi option available as some seem to be suggesting.

    What many players dont understand, is that if you play confusion mirage badly, then its not worth it - especially if you have a firebrand+renegade support team. Either learn it properly, or just stick to your main dps. Its way more important to not get kicked of the platform and not bubbled, than bringing confusion to that fight.

    Id really wish anet would do something about the extreme outlier largos encounter. Tbh, Id wish they would finally revert the changes to confusion in PvE. This whole "crit" idea is nice for PvP and WvW, but its plain horrible for PvE balancing. Confusion stacking builds like condi mirage is horrible on the majority of bosses, while extremely OP on the few ones that have a fast attack rate.
    Horrible design. Just horrible.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Not everyone can pull off those numbers though. For many players i have seen, condi sb is as good an option tbh. Well, for matthias and desmina. Largos is mirage-only definitely, byt i'd say that is as much for damage, as it is for survivability.

    Also, i tend to hate some people playing mirages on desmina a lot, because they end up teleporting outside middle circle and spawning the big walls way too often for my liking.

    yes, mirage is definitely good, but it's hardly the only reasonable condi option available as some seem to be suggesting.

    What many players dont understand, is that if you play confusion mirage badly, then its not worth it - especially if you have a firebrand+renegade support team. Either learn it properly, or just stick to your main dps. Its way more important to not get kicked of the platform and not bubbled, than bringing confusion to that fight.

    Id really wish anet would do something about the extreme outlier largos encounter. Tbh, Id wish they would finally revert the changes to confusion in PvE. This whole "crit" idea is nice for PvP and WvW, but its plain horrible for PvE balancing. Confusion stacking builds like condi mirage is horrible on the majority of bosses, while extremely OP on the few ones that have a fast attack rate.
    Horrible design. Just horrible.

    This.

    Both Astralporing and Yasi are correct. People assume they are doing good damage because they log Mirage. Then they don't realize that their 12-15k dps on arc on Largos is not that great. Mirage needs to be played well to be worth it. Renegade, Holo or Soulbeast are very good dps for those fights, and in some cases way easier to be played.

    Largos being a huge exception due to the overall movement favoring Mirage very heavily. All other bosses, honestly unless you are running a top end speed clear guild, bring which ever condi build you are comfortable with.

    I'd personally take a very easy to play condi soulbeast who gets 80% of snowcrows dps over some 60% of snowcrows performance mirage.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Id really wish anet would do something about the extreme outlier largos encounter. Tbh, Id wish they would finally revert the changes to confusion in PvE. This whole "crit" idea is nice for PvP and WvW, but its plain horrible for PvE balancing. Confusion stacking builds like condi mirage is horrible on the majority of bosses, while extremely OP on the few ones that have a fast attack rate.
    Horrible design. Just horrible.

    Well Anet wants Confusion to be a flavorfull bursty condition that punishes others for using skills. It was a change that was made solely with PvP and WvW in mind and made no sense in PvE where mobs don't care if they have confusion. It was also the only change that Anet didn't really talk about back then while other stuff like, the phantasm/clone change and alacrity got quite the amount of explanation which was good but the overall confusion change ( a big one ) got only " we are very excited about this"....

    And yes Anet needs to revert the confusion change back in PvE. Let PvP and WvW have this new confusion type, it makes sense there but it needs to be reverted in PvE. Flavor is a nice thing when it works and doesn't interfere with the skill but here the "flavor" is just making this thing bad.

  • Lets ask a question. Why do some boses favor cond and some power. Generaly fights with short phases favkr power and without phases condi. Boss that has no phases, and is not moving/atacking fast would be a golem. Thats why 2 main condi dps classes are mirage and renegade

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Lets ask a question. Why do some boses favor cond and some power. Generaly fights with short phases favkr power and without phases condi. Boss that has no phases, and is not moving/atacking fast would be a golem. Thats why 2 main condi dps classes are mirage and renegade

    It's both but currently mostly due to movement.

    Mirage is superior movement wise which brings it out on top for many fights which otherwise should be favoring power (Cairn, Matthias, Desmina, Twins). 4 of the main Mirage bosses have limited burst phases (a lot more limited than say Cairn, Sabetha, Xera, etc. which all allow for near permanent damage, at least compared to the aforementioned) but are also very movement heavy.

    The only fight where condition damage comes out on top where movement is of less concern is Dhuum. That's mostly due to Renegade being top dps on large hit boxes AND being very useful on the fight (bringing his own boon removal).

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    Before mirage Matthias was berserker warrior favoured and before that fire brand favoured, and before that Soul beast favoured. I think scourge also had their time. Matthias has never been power favoured in any meta, including the ones before the confusion change.

    Cairn follow a similar line. When we had a weaver meta cairn was know as a pain because of the mechanics, so everyone just went condi.

    Desmina was initial mirage, then berserker warrior, then epi bounce and then back to mirage.

    Twins has always been mirage.

    Xera, sab and gor is the ones that seen most swings between condi and power depending on benchmarks and patches. I would even go as far as say that next patch will change the meta for those bosses, regardless what the patch include.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Lets ask a question. Why do some boses favor cond and some power. Generaly fights with short phases favkr power and without phases condi. Boss that has no phases, and is not moving/atacking fast would be a golem. Thats why 2 main condi dps classes are mirage and renegade

    The only fight where condition damage comes out on top where movement is of less concern is Dhuum. That's mostly due to Renegade being top dps on large hit boxes AND being very useful on the fight (bringing his own boon removal).

    Boon removal is not a major factor. In the past we either had the off chrono sacrifice one utility for disenchanter, or people brought spell breaker. Renegade is more convenient and can also clear out south, but if a better DPS choice can consistently do higher DPS then that will replace renegade. Renegade replaced the DE thieves meta for dhuum, which had none of the convenient aspects but did bring a lot of DPS pre-nerf.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are many cases of people being better off sticking to Soulbeasts with their easy rotation or even Scourges with their Torment stacking against moving targets and additional survivability over Mirages. We have seem this many times before. Mirages are just the new Weavers (or previously Tempests). A build people feel forced to play even if only a minority is actually able to come close to reaching that benchmark performance.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Before mirage Matthias was berserker warrior favoured and before that fire brand favoured, and before that Soul beast favoured. I think scourge also had their time. Matthias has never been power favoured in any meta, including the ones before the confusion change.

    I know, this was to argue that short burst phases are not automatically power favored as people always like to make out. Matthias has always been a fight where movement and how well a class can perform their dps under this limitation is subject to.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Desmina was initial mirage, then berserker warrior, then epi bounce and then back to mirage.

    Again, favoring the build which best deals with the movement impairment and requirement (or absolute dps which was insane with epidemic).

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Twins has always been mirage.

    Yup, and?

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Xera, sab and gor is the ones that seen most swings between condi and power depending on benchmarks and patches. I would even go as far as say that next patch will change the meta for those bosses, regardless what the patch include.

    Because the fights are close to a damage golem and the highest dps wins. Again, having permanent or near permanent access to damaging a boss is no automatic reason that condition is favored. Hence the argument that condition damage is favored against bosses with low invul phases is bogus.

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Lets ask a question. Why do some boses favor cond and some power. Generaly fights with short phases favkr power and without phases condi. Boss that has no phases, and is not moving/atacking fast would be a golem. Thats why 2 main condi dps classes are mirage and renegade

    The only fight where condition damage comes out on top where movement is of less concern is Dhuum. That's mostly due to Renegade being top dps on large hit boxes AND being very useful on the fight (bringing his own boon removal).

    Boon removal is not a major factor. In the past we either had the off chrono sacrifice one utility for disenchanter, or people brought spell breaker. Renegade is more convenient and can also clear out south, but if a better DPS choice can consistently do higher DPS then that will replace renegade. Renegade replaced the DE thieves meta for dhuum, which had none of the convenient aspects but did bring a lot of DPS pre-nerf.

    I did mention that highest dps on Dhuum was due to Renegade being top dps on large hitboxes didn't I? Again, what is your argument?

    Mine is this: division between condition damage and power is currently decided on the basis of how much movement is involved, and if enough movement is part of the fight, Mirage gets chosen due to its unique mechanics. In all other cases power builds win UNLESS there is a condition damage dps build which does more damage (only on Dhuum Renegade) or builds within the class are heavily skewed towards one of both damage types and the class needs to get taken along (warrior).

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:
    There are many cases of people being better off sticking to Soulbeasts with their easy rotation or even Scourges with their Torment stacking against moving targets and additional survivability over Mirages. We have seem this many times before. Mirages are just the new Weavers (or previously Tempests). A build people feel forced to play even if only a minority is actually able to come close to reaching that benchmark performance.

    This is true for the vast majority of players and is what I communicate to new players:

    Pick a class where the rotation is easy enough so you don't have to worry about mastering multiple things at once. I do recommend for them to have a power and condition damage build available (simply because certain fights like VG require certain types of damage and those fights are often used by us for practice). Past that though, condi double shortbow soulbeast, thief or DH are among the top recommendations currently (talking completely new players to raids often).

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Before mirage Matthias was berserker warrior favoured and before that fire brand favoured, and before that Soul beast favoured. I think scourge also had their time. Matthias has never been power favoured in any meta, including the ones before the confusion change.

    I know, this was to argue that short burst phases are not automatically power favored as people always like to make out. Matthias has always been a fight where movement and how well a class can perform their dps under this limitation is subject to.

    Matthias has been condi favoured since it has no condition reseting phases and does not stand still for aoe or other skills which favor a boss that stand still. It is also a mechanic heavy fight which require both a lot of CC and reflects, which forces players to prioritize part of the party to other aspects than exclusively DPS.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Desmina was initial mirage, then berserker warrior, then epi bounce and then back to mirage.

    Again, favoring the build which best deals with the movement impairment and requirement (or absolute dps which was insane with epidemic).

    The build that do best dps depend on multiple factors, one being movement. There are power classes that deal decently with movement, but here the attack speed of the boss gives confusion an additional edge.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Twins has always been mirage.

    Yup, and?

    And what? Not everything need to be a confrontation. The dodge and evade function is built-in with mirage rotation, where other build would need to sacrifice rotation in order to stay alive. This give a major advantage to mirage in this specific fight. Renegade is about 2/3 of a mirage for DPS on this fight, where the difference on a small golem would be very different.

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Xera, sab and gor is the ones that seen most swings between condi and power depending on benchmarks and patches. I would even go as far as say that next patch will change the meta for those bosses, regardless what the patch include.

    Because the fights are close to a damage golem and the highest dps wins. Again, having permanent or near permanent access to damaging a boss is no automatic reason that condition is favored. Hence the argument that condition damage is favored against bosses with low invul phases is bogus.

    Bosses that has condition resetting phases reduces the effective of conditions. Gor has that, making the ramp up time a major disadvantage in groups that burst him down fast enough to not do updraft which is the majority now days. Gor currently favor burst damage classes and builds, similar to KC. It is one of the bosses that Anet should give a health buff to in order to compensate for power creep.

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Lets ask a question. Why do some boses favor cond and some power. Generaly fights with short phases favkr power and without phases condi. Boss that has no phases, and is not moving/atacking fast would be a golem. Thats why 2 main condi dps classes are mirage and renegade

    The only fight where condition damage comes out on top where movement is of less concern is Dhuum. That's mostly due to Renegade being top dps on large hit boxes AND being very useful on the fight (bringing his own boon removal).

    Boon removal is not a major factor. In the past we either had the off chrono sacrifice one utility for disenchanter, or people brought spell breaker. Renegade is more convenient and can also clear out south, but if a better DPS choice can consistently do higher DPS then that will replace renegade. Renegade replaced the DE thieves meta for dhuum, which had none of the convenient aspects but did bring a lot of DPS pre-nerf.

    I did mention that highest dps on Dhuum was due to Renegade being top dps on large hitboxes didn't I? Again, what is your argument?

    Did you forget that you said "bringing his own boon removal" was very useful? Its a minor bonus that see its best utilization when low manning.

    Mine is this: division between condition damage and power is currently decided on the basis of how much movement is involved, and if enough movement is part of the fight, Mirage gets chosen due to its unique mechanics. In all other cases power builds win UNLESS there is a condition damage dps build which does more damage (only on Dhuum Renegade) or builds within the class are heavily skewed towards one of both damage types and the class needs to get taken along (warrior).

    Movement effects specific skills. Not all power classes are effected by it, nor is all condition classes in favored when there is a lot of movement. Condition classes are effected by phases and condition-reseting mechanics which limits heavily what bosses they can be effective on. In addition to that, confusion stacks are effected by skill activation which is an internal aspect to each raid boss. Dhuum 10% phase is a prime example of this where proper confusion stacking can give mirage something like 60-100k dps for a very short burst.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Before mirage Matthias was berserker warrior favoured and before that fire brand favoured, and before that Soul beast favoured. I think scourge also had their time. Matthias has never been power favoured in any meta, including the ones before the confusion change.

    I know, this was to argue that short burst phases are not automatically power favored as people always like to make out. Matthias has always been a fight where movement and how well a class can perform their dps under this limitation is subject to.

    Matthias has been condi favoured since it has no condition reseting phases and does not stand still for aoe or other skills which favor a boss that stand still. It is also a mechanic heavy fight which require both a lot of CC and reflects, which forces players to prioritize part of the party to other aspects than exclusively DPS.

    Well yes and no. While immune condies expire while power builds simply wait on cool downs. Yes, other factors also play into Mirages strengths.

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Desmina was initial mirage, then berserker warrior, then epi bounce and then back to mirage.

    Again, favoring the build which best deals with the movement impairment and requirement (or absolute dps which was insane with epidemic).

    The build that do best dps depend on multiple factors, one being movement. There are power classes that deal decently with movement, but here the attack speed of the boss gives confusion an additional edge.

    True, but the fact that literally no other condi build is in any of the meta setups (not saying they aren't useful or close) is a clear indicator of multiple factors favoring specifically Mirage.

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Twins has always been mirage.

    Yup, and?

    And what? Not everything need to be a confrontation. The dodge and evade function is built-in with mirage rotation, where other build would need to sacrifice rotation in order to stay alive. This give a major advantage to mirage in this specific fight. Renegade is about 2/3 of a mirage for DPS on this fight, where the difference on a small golem would be very different.

    True, I was probably a bit on edge from all this hrum dum on the forums and people freaking out currently. My bad.

    Still, again Mirage is favored due to factors which are unrelated to condition damage.

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    Xera, sab and gor is the ones that seen most swings between condi and power depending on benchmarks and patches. I would even go as far as say that next patch will change the meta for those bosses, regardless what the patch include.

    Because the fights are close to a damage golem and the highest dps wins. Again, having permanent or near permanent access to damaging a boss is no automatic reason that condition is favored. Hence the argument that condition damage is favored against bosses with low invul phases is bogus.

    Bosses that has condition resetting phases reduces the effective of conditions. Gor has that, making the ramp up time a major disadvantage in groups that burst him down fast enough to not do updraft which is the majority now days. Gor currently favor burst damage classes and builds, similar to KC. It is one of the bosses that Anet should give a health buff to in order to compensate for power creep.

    Yes, condition builds in general should be dominating permanent damage fights. They aren't currently. Maybe some adjustments need to be made to boss life (I mean almost half of all mechanics get skipped in the original wings). Then again I personally view this as slight power creep to reduce content difficulty. It;s already hard enough on many in this player base to succeed at this content.

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Lets ask a question. Why do some boses favor cond and some power. Generaly fights with short phases favkr power and without phases condi. Boss that has no phases, and is not moving/atacking fast would be a golem. Thats why 2 main condi dps classes are mirage and renegade

    The only fight where condition damage comes out on top where movement is of less concern is Dhuum. That's mostly due to Renegade being top dps on large hit boxes AND being very useful on the fight (bringing his own boon removal).

    Boon removal is not a major factor. In the past we either had the off chrono sacrifice one utility for disenchanter, or people brought spell breaker. Renegade is more convenient and can also clear out south, but if a better DPS choice can consistently do higher DPS then that will replace renegade. Renegade replaced the DE thieves meta for dhuum, which had none of the convenient aspects but did bring a lot of DPS pre-nerf.

    I did mention that highest dps on Dhuum was due to Renegade being top dps on large hitboxes didn't I? Again, what is your argument?

    Did you forget that you said "bringing his own boon removal" was very useful? Its a minor bonus that see its best utilization when low manning.

    You're right, I should have not called it major bonus (though bring a full set of dps without boon removal would require adaptations to either a slot (reducing performance on that slot) or different skill on mesmer (which again can cause serious loss in dps). Not sure I would call it a minor bonus, but now we are getting into the area of semantics and which setup gets run.

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Mine is this: division between condition damage and power is currently decided on the basis of how much movement is involved, and if enough movement is part of the fight, Mirage gets chosen due to its unique mechanics. In all other cases power builds win UNLESS there is a condition damage dps build which does more damage (only on Dhuum Renegade) or builds within the class are heavily skewed towards one of both damage types and the class needs to get taken along (warrior).

    Movement effects specific skills. Not all power classes are effected by it, nor is all condition classes in favored when there is a lot of movement. Condition classes are effected by phases and condition-reseting mechanics which limits heavily what bosses they can be effective on. In addition to that, confusion stacks are effected by skill activation which is an internal aspect to each raid boss. Dhuum 10% phase is a prime example of this where proper confusion stacking can give mirage something like 60-100k dps for a very short burst.

    The main issue being, NO condition class is meta except for Mirage (and even Renegade on Dhuum gets outperformed with full chrono power dps squads). This is not me calling for condition buffs, but I just can't see how condition damage supposedly outperforms power on any fights UNLESS there are multiple factors benefiting the specific class.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    What I don't understand is the stupid compulsion people feel for demanding a mirage or whatever fotm class for a boss when other specs can still do competitive damage and clear the raid.

    It's about as petty as not accepting a holosmith because DD/DE/DH/Weaver are higher.

    Who cares? The enrage timer thresholds are so ridiculously low that by this point the min maxing that is suddenly made mandatory is ruining the raiding and fractal scene.

    People are complaining about things which are the sole product of a community problem, not a game problem. This game's endgame community treats class selection far worse than other games like FFXIV/WoW which have infinitely more demanding DPS checks and raid mechanics.

    I go to look at LFG on fractals T4 and now in NA every day it's "CHRONO/DRUID" on CM's.+T4 Why so stringent? These can still be cleared in less than 40 minutes with a renegade or FB healer, it's just dumb how absolutist this community is.

    Meanwhile in FFXIV and WoW I can grab the highest weekly M+ key or a mythic raid on something like an ele shaman or feral druid still, or do a savage mode raid on a samurai/blm (the least "wanted" DPS) with far less issue.

    This community has serious herd mentality and total inflexibility when it comes to comps. It's ironic how the game that was supposed to be the one with most comp variety is the most stifling and intolerant of them all.

  • You shouldn't really look at benchmarks to decide on whether a class is op or not, though I agree that mesmer in general is pretty strong, if your basis comes down to benchmarks then that is simply not a good argument to make

  • Amineo.8951Amineo.8951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    What I don't understand is the stupid compulsion people feel for demanding a mirage or whatever fotm class for a boss when other specs can still do competitive damage and clear the raid.

    It's about as petty as not accepting a holosmith because DD/DE/DH/Weaver are higher.

    Who cares? The enrage timer thresholds are so ridiculously low that by this point the min maxing that is suddenly made mandatory is ruining the raiding and fractal scene.

    People are complaining about things which are the sole product of a community problem, not a game problem. This game's endgame community treats class selection far worse than other games like FFXIV/WoW which have infinitely more demanding DPS checks and raid mechanics.

    I go to look at LFG on fractals T4 and now in NA every day it's "CHRONO/DRUID" on CM's.+T4 Why so stringent? These can still be cleared in less than 40 minutes with a renegade or FB healer, it's just dumb how absolutist this community is.

    Meanwhile in FFXIV and WoW I can grab the highest weekly M+ key or a mythic raid on something like an ele shaman or feral druid still, or do a savage mode raid on a samurai/blm (the least "wanted" DPS) with far less issue.

    This community has serious herd mentality and total inflexibility when it comes to comps. It's ironic how the game that was supposed to be the one with most comp variety is the most stifling and intolerant of them all.

    I agree with you 100% and I play FFXIV too, I've never been excluded from any HC endgame content as a Dark Knight and White Mage player, and people knows how far they're behind other tanks and healers (aka little to no group support abilities compared to Paladin/Astrologian).

    I'm pretty sure you can still clear all raids with 2 Chronos/1 FB + 1 Renegade, 1 BS, 1 Druid/Scourge and 6 P/P Daredevil/Deadeye.

    People really need to stop copying speedrunners tactics in this game, it's not something all of you can do, why not taking advantage of Firebrand, Renegade and Scourge healing in fractals? It's crazy how easy 100CM is with either of them compared to Druid, heck you can even take 2 healers with you (Firebrand + Renegade) and still complete it in a reasonable amount of time, it just takes +5min at worst but in exchange you're guaranteed to succeed, keep in mind that outside Siax in 99CM there aren't much DPS checks in Fractals at all.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    On matt you can play renegade too since the confusion procs take 3+sec so it doesnt really does a HUGE difference.
    On SH you can play renegade too, because if you pull out a 29-31k renegade then you are very close to the mirage´s DPS in your group for the reason of the executing the perfect rotation for an average of 24 stacks of confusion(those numbers on the image are calculated with this amout of confusion on boss iirc). Also, the rotation for that is somewhat unforgiving since it makes you hard to fix your mistakes on phases for example CC or bad push
    Dhuum is renegade, MO is renegade, so it comes down to that mirage is only BiS on Largos and maybe on SH if you do really good rota and the DPS is high enough to prevent mistakes
    But after all this, i think we should just vote to either delete mirage or make it unable to use any weapon/skill/trait but then the forums would be silent...

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amineo.8951 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    What I don't understand is the stupid compulsion people feel for demanding a mirage or whatever fotm class for a boss when other specs can still do competitive damage and clear the raid.

    It's about as petty as not accepting a holosmith because DD/DE/DH/Weaver are higher.

    Who cares? The enrage timer thresholds are so ridiculously low that by this point the min maxing that is suddenly made mandatory is ruining the raiding and fractal scene.

    People are complaining about things which are the sole product of a community problem, not a game problem. This game's endgame community treats class selection far worse than other games like FFXIV/WoW which have infinitely more demanding DPS checks and raid mechanics.

    I go to look at LFG on fractals T4 and now in NA every day it's "CHRONO/DRUID" on CM's.+T4 Why so stringent? These can still be cleared in less than 40 minutes with a renegade or FB healer, it's just dumb how absolutist this community is.

    Meanwhile in FFXIV and WoW I can grab the highest weekly M+ key or a mythic raid on something like an ele shaman or feral druid still, or do a savage mode raid on a samurai/blm (the least "wanted" DPS) with far less issue.

    This community has serious herd mentality and total inflexibility when it comes to comps. It's ironic how the game that was supposed to be the one with most comp variety is the most stifling and intolerant of them all.

    I agree with you 100% and I play FFXIV too, I've never been excluded from any HC endgame content as a Dark Knight and White Mage player, and people knows how far they're behind other tanks and healers (aka little to no group support abilities compared to Paladin/Astrologian).

    I'm pretty sure you can still clear all raids with 2 Chronos/1 FB + 1 Renegade, 1 BS, 1 Druid/Scourge and 6 P/P Daredevil/Deadeye.

    People really need to stop copying speedrunners tactics in this game, it's not something all of you can do, why not taking advantage of Firebrand, Renegade and Scourge healing in fractals? It's crazy how easy 100CM is with either of them compared to Druid, heck you can even take 2 healers with you (Firebrand + Renegade) and still complete it in a reasonable amount of time, it just takes +5min at worst but in exchange you're guaranteed to succeed, keep in mind that outside Siax in 99CM there aren't much DPS checks in Fractals at all.

    The amount of people who wait 20+ minutes for a BS warrior when they could grab just another DPS and get started and clear the content in a similar time is mindboggling to begin with.

    People in this game absolutely refuse to run anything deviating from the flavor of the month.

    I remember when I was getting votekicked for bringing a power chrono dps to fractal CM or the support chrono leaving indignant, only for power chrono to be deemed OP and suddenly nobody caring about it.

    And then there are the people who say "start your own group".

    You clearly haven't started an LFG being a necro/revenant/power chrono by then because if you did you'd know how much longer it takes to fill if it fills at all in LFG.

  • Amineo.8951Amineo.8951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    What I don't understand is the stupid compulsion people feel for demanding a mirage or whatever fotm class for a boss when other specs can still do competitive damage and clear the raid.

    It's about as petty as not accepting a holosmith because DD/DE/DH/Weaver are higher.

    Who cares? The enrage timer thresholds are so ridiculously low that by this point the min maxing that is suddenly made mandatory is ruining the raiding and fractal scene.

    People are complaining about things which are the sole product of a community problem, not a game problem. This game's endgame community treats class selection far worse than other games like FFXIV/WoW which have infinitely more demanding DPS checks and raid mechanics.

    I go to look at LFG on fractals T4 and now in NA every day it's "CHRONO/DRUID" on CM's.+T4 Why so stringent? These can still be cleared in less than 40 minutes with a renegade or FB healer, it's just dumb how absolutist this community is.

    Meanwhile in FFXIV and WoW I can grab the highest weekly M+ key or a mythic raid on something like an ele shaman or feral druid still, or do a savage mode raid on a samurai/blm (the least "wanted" DPS) with far less issue.

    This community has serious herd mentality and total inflexibility when it comes to comps. It's ironic how the game that was supposed to be the one with most comp variety is the most stifling and intolerant of them all.

    I agree with you 100% and I play FFXIV too, I've never been excluded from any HC endgame content as a Dark Knight and White Mage player, and people knows how far they're behind other tanks and healers (aka little to no group support abilities compared to Paladin/Astrologian).

    I'm pretty sure you can still clear all raids with 2 Chronos/1 FB + 1 Renegade, 1 BS, 1 Druid/Scourge and 6 P/P Daredevil/Deadeye.

    People really need to stop copying speedrunners tactics in this game, it's not something all of you can do, why not taking advantage of Firebrand, Renegade and Scourge healing in fractals? It's crazy how easy 100CM is with either of them compared to Druid, heck you can even take 2 healers with you (Firebrand + Renegade) and still complete it in a reasonable amount of time, it just takes +5min at worst but in exchange you're guaranteed to succeed, keep in mind that outside Siax in 99CM there aren't much DPS checks in Fractals at all.

    The amount of people who wait 20+ minutes for a BS warrior when they could grab just another DPS and get started and clear the content in a similar time is mindboggling to begin with.

    People in this game absolutely refuse to run anything deviating from the flavor of the month.

    I remember when I was getting votekicked for bringing a power chrono dps to fractal CM or the support chrono leaving indignant, only for power chrono to be deemed OP and suddenly nobody caring about it.

    And then there are the people who say "start your own group".

    You clearly haven't started an LFG being a necro/revenant/power chrono by then because if you did you'd know how much longer it takes to fill if it fills at all in LFG.

    People won't truly care about Renegade + Firebrand combo in Raids until Chrono dies and becomes "trash" in the eyes of top tier guilds.

    I mean look at how Necro gets all the trash because it doesn't have it's own "Good" or "Meta" slots in Snowcrows website when Healing Scourge has been proven to be awesome in Fractals and Raids, this is seriously a big issue that needs to be addressed.

    But it'll never change since most of them are raid testers if I'm not mistaken.

  • @Zenith.7301 said:
    What I don't understand is the stupid compulsion people feel for demanding a mirage or whatever fotm class for a boss when other specs can still do competitive damage and clear the raid.

    It's about as petty as not accepting a holosmith because DD/DE/DH/Weaver are higher.

    Who cares? The enrage timer thresholds are so ridiculously low that by this point the min maxing that is suddenly made mandatory is ruining the raiding and fractal scene.

    People are complaining about things which are the sole product of a community problem, not a game problem. This game's endgame community treats class selection far worse than other games like FFXIV/WoW which have infinitely more demanding DPS checks and raid mechanics.

    I go to look at LFG on fractals T4 and now in NA every day it's "CHRONO/DRUID" on CM's.+T4 Why so stringent? These can still be cleared in less than 40 minutes with a renegade or FB healer, it's just dumb how absolutist this community is.

    Meanwhile in FFXIV and WoW I can grab the highest weekly M+ key or a mythic raid on something like an ele shaman or feral druid still, or do a savage mode raid on a samurai/blm (the least "wanted" DPS) with far less issue.

    This community has serious herd mentality and total inflexibility when it comes to comps. It's ironic how the game that was supposed to be the one with most comp variety is the most stifling and intolerant of them all.

    For me clear is not the goal. Why should I play with worse composition when it is less fun for me?

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    What I don't understand is the stupid compulsion people feel for demanding a mirage or whatever fotm class for a boss when other specs can still do competitive damage and clear the raid.

    It's about as petty as not accepting a holosmith because DD/DE/DH/Weaver are higher.

    Who cares? The enrage timer thresholds are so ridiculously low that by this point the min maxing that is suddenly made mandatory is ruining the raiding and fractal scene.

    People are complaining about things which are the sole product of a community problem, not a game problem. This game's endgame community treats class selection far worse than other games like FFXIV/WoW which have infinitely more demanding DPS checks and raid mechanics.

    I go to look at LFG on fractals T4 and now in NA every day it's "CHRONO/DRUID" on CM's.+T4 Why so stringent? These can still be cleared in less than 40 minutes with a renegade or FB healer, it's just dumb how absolutist this community is.

    Meanwhile in FFXIV and WoW I can grab the highest weekly M+ key or a mythic raid on something like an ele shaman or feral druid still, or do a savage mode raid on a samurai/blm (the least "wanted" DPS) with far less issue.

    This community has serious herd mentality and total inflexibility when it comes to comps. It's ironic how the game that was supposed to be the one with most comp variety is the most stifling and intolerant of them all.

    For me clear is not the goal. Why should I play with worse composition when it is less fun for me?

    Because defining worse as "This comp nets me 3 minutes less clear time" is one of the most asinine and neurotic restrictions to fun I have read.

  • @Zenith.7301 said:
    Because defining worse as "This comp nets me 3 minutes less clear time" is one of the most asinine and neurotic restrictions to fun I have read.

    And yet its still his opninion of fun. Should he change his opinion because you dont like it?

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2019

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Because defining worse as "This comp nets me 3 minutes less clear time" is one of the most asinine and neurotic restrictions to fun I have read.

    And yet its still his opninion of fun. Should he change his opinion because you dont like it?

    No, but just like how I can deem someone's opinion of fun being that endgame content difficulty should be lowered even further as stupid, I can also name asinine requirements for what they are.

    Because you are being truly ridiculous in a game with a raid scene that's a joke compared to WoW mythic or FFXIV savage. Bosses can even be 4 manned in this game.

    Nobody would take the opinion of a guy wanting to sit on a Knights longbow ranger as his "fun" in fractal CM's seriously, so why should I suddenly respect the laughable wishes of a person moaning about 3 more minutes on a boss being a reason for preventing others to play one of the classes of this game he doesn't approve of?

    They are the sheeple that keep renegade/quickbrand from being a thing because they are obsessed with the idea that only druid/chrono can work and people should be excluded from content if they don't conform and play something else that is still perfectly viable and a marginal difference.

  • @Zenith.7301 said:

    Bosses can even be 4 manned in this game.

    If the only thing keeping you from getting a low man is your personal skill, i think thats actually good design.

    Nobody would take the opinion of a guy wanting to sit on a Knights longbow ranger as his "fun" in fractal CM's seriously, so why should I suddenly respect the laughable wishes of a person moaning about 3 more minutes on a boss being a reason for preventing others to play one of the classes of this game he doesn't approve of?

    Probably because nobody looked for a knights longbow ranger?
    While it might be fun to him, he shouldnt limit the fun the other 4 people in his group can have.

    If a commander wants a hammer warrior for cc he can look for one. I wont join his group but thats fine.

    They are the sheeple that keep renegade/quickbrand from being a thing because they are obsessed with the idea that only druid/chrono can work and people should be
    excluded from content if they don't conform and play something else that is still perfectly viable and a marginal difference.

    I already mentioned in another thread that i think that Chrono/FB/Ren Comp is superior to double chrono on casual groups and almost even to double chrono on more hardcore oriented groups. The only two bosses id say they are clearly inferior are dhuum and qadim.

    Also tbf. if seen people being pretty open about FB/Ren in pug groups. The problem is that you need both though.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    Bosses can even be 4 manned in this game.

    If the only thing keeping you from getting a low man is your personal skill, i think thats actually good design.

    Nobody would take the opinion of a guy wanting to sit on a Knights longbow ranger as his "fun" in fractal CM's seriously, so why should I suddenly respect the laughable wishes of a person moaning about 3 more minutes on a boss being a reason for preventing others to play one of the classes of this game he doesn't approve of?

    Probably because nobody looked for a knights longbow ranger?
    While it might be fun to him, he shouldnt limit the fun the other 4 people in his group can have.

    If a commander wants a hammer warrior for cc he can look for one. I wont join his group but thats fine.

    They are the sheeple that keep renegade/quickbrand from being a thing because they are obsessed with the idea that only druid/chrono can work and people should be
    excluded from content if they don't conform and play something else that is still perfectly viable and a marginal difference.

    I already mentioned in another thread that i think that Chrono/FB/Ren Comp is superior to double chrono on casual groups and almost even to double chrono on more hardcore oriented groups. The only two bosses id say they are clearly inferior are dhuum and qadim.

    Also tbf. if seen people being pretty open about FB/Ren in pug groups. The problem is that you need both though.

    Or the fact that it's a 4 man says nothing about skill but rather the trivial tuning of said content where a DPS and heal check is so ridiculously low that failing said checks by such a player deficit won't wipe you.

    You may think it's superior ( I honestly don't care, both work fine), but the fact is here in NA fractal CM PuGs will seldomly accept fb/ren in lieu of druid/chrono and raids are the same. Just take a survey of the LFG every day at the same time, or during every reset and the results are the same, pigheaded class bias for no reason. You can say to make a group but the answer would be that a measured comparison in group fill times (if groups fill at all by reset, I've seen scourge group leaders sit in LFG almost an hour and more and still not fill at all) and still it's always the chrono/druid/guardian kitten that comes up and fills.

    People in such a loosely tuned game are way less flexible than in games whose endgame content is infinitely more tightly tuned (and spare me the gear kitten, every new tier is balanced around existing gear levels for completion; the ilv increases are mere rewards and an effective curve for nerfing content over time for less skilled players).

  • @Zenith.7301 said:
    You may think it's superior ( I honestly don't care, both work fine), but the fact is here in NA fractal CM PuGs will seldomly accept fb/ren in lieu of druid/chrono and raids are the same. Just take a survey of the LFG every day at the same time, or during every reset and the results are the same, pigheaded class bias for no reason. You can say to make a group but the answer would be that a measured comparison in group fill times (if groups fill at all by reset, I've seen scourge group leaders sit in LFG almost an hour and more and still not fill at all) and still it's always the chrono/druid/guardian kitten that comes up and fills.

    That sounds more like an NA problem then. EU Reset LFG fills really quick, for both fractals and raids.
    Tbf. even on EU i see most people looking for Chrono. However thats mostly because it should fill quicker. Remember that with chrono you only need one player for quickness and alacrity while with firebrand/renegade you need two.
    If you join a group and say that you can play either of them or if you join with a friend who can play the other, people very rarely are against it.

  • @Zenith.7301 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Because defining worse as "This comp nets me 3 minutes less clear time" is one of the most asinine and neurotic restrictions to fun I have read.

    And yet its still his opninion of fun. Should he change his opinion because you dont like it?

    No, but just like how I can deem someone's opinion of fun being that endgame content difficulty should be lowered even further as stupid, I can also name asinine requirements for what they are.

    Because you are being truly ridiculous in a game with a raid scene that's a joke compared to WoW mythic or FFXIV savage. Bosses can even be 4 manned in this game.

    Nobody would take the opinion of a guy wanting to sit on a Knights longbow ranger as his "fun" in fractal CM's seriously, so why should I suddenly respect the laughable wishes of a person moaning about 3 more minutes on a boss being a reason for preventing others to play one of the classes of this game he doesn't approve of?

    They are the sheeple that keep renegade/quickbrand from being a thing because they are obsessed with the idea that only druid/chrono can work and people should be excluded from content if they don't conform and play something else that is still perfectly viable and a marginal difference.

    You can play whatever you want if it is fun for you. I dont care. Have your fun and I will have mine. I know Ican kill bosses with "bad" compositions but if kill is certain, why even try it. I already know the outcome. Thats why efficient pulls are fun. Perfect clear is not certain.
    You can play whatever you want. The fact that it is hard for you to find group shows that you are not like majority

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2019

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    Bosses can even be 4 manned in this game.

    If the only thing keeping you from getting a low man is your personal skill, i think thats actually good design.

    Nobody would take the opinion of a guy wanting to sit on a Knights longbow ranger as his "fun" in fractal CM's seriously, so why should I suddenly respect the laughable wishes of a person moaning about 3 more minutes on a boss being a reason for preventing others to play one of the classes of this game he doesn't approve of?

    Probably because nobody looked for a knights longbow ranger?
    While it might be fun to him, he shouldnt limit the fun the other 4 people in his group can have.

    If a commander wants a hammer warrior for cc he can look for one. I wont join his group but thats fine.

    They are the sheeple that keep renegade/quickbrand from being a thing because they are obsessed with the idea that only druid/chrono can work and people should be
    excluded from content if they don't conform and play something else that is still perfectly viable and a marginal difference.

    I already mentioned in another thread that i think that Chrono/FB/Ren Comp is superior to double chrono on casual groups and almost even to double chrono on more hardcore oriented groups. The only two bosses id say they are clearly inferior are dhuum and qadim.

    Also tbf. if seen people being pretty open about FB/Ren in pug groups. The problem is that you need both though.

    Or the fact that it's a 4 man says nothing about skill but rather the trivial tuning of said content where a DPS and heal check is so ridiculously low that failing said checks by such a player deficit won't wipe you.

    You may think it's superior ( I honestly don't care, both work fine), but the fact is here in NA fractal CM PuGs will seldomly accept fb/ren in lieu of druid/chrono and raids are the same. Just take a survey of the LFG every day at the same time, or during every reset and the results are the same, pigheaded class bias for no reason. You can say to make a group but the answer would be that a measured comparison in group fill times (if groups fill at all by reset, I've seen scourge group leaders sit in LFG almost an hour and more and still not fill at all) and still it's always the chrono/druid/guardian kitten that comes up and fills.

    People in such a loosely tuned game are way less flexible than in games whose endgame content is infinitely more tightly tuned (and spare me the gear kitten, every new tier is balanced around existing gear levels for completion; the ilv increases are mere rewards and an effective curve for nerfing content over time for less skilled players).

    You are lumping together a lot of issues which have nothing to do with the games balance though.

    Certain issues which affect class choice:

    • experience or lack thereof. Many people know chrono druid and are slow or unwilling to switch compositions. This is very evident with double druid compositions which are INFERIOR IN EVERY WAY to druid+literally any other healer
    • lack of class availability. Diviner gear is expensive. Not everyone is willing to spend gold or resources on gearing a character as long as another composition still works fine. Especially when they already own one of the most expensive character builds (Chrono has to be the most expensive class to maintain for pve bar none).
    • lack of class experience. A player who has mastered chrono is not incentivized to gain experience on a different class
    • lack of the groups experience. Some people are used to druid+chrono. Why make them switch strategies?
    • lack of desire or complexity of group composition. Why should someone switch from chrono where he is highly desired to something else? Especially when this other composition is now relying on another player doing the same (Firebrand AND Renegade)
    • constant change of meta. Chrono has seen how many changes within the last 1.5 years? Yet it remains viable. Why risk changing to something else?
    • mirror compositions are easier to build than non mirror. 2 chrono+2druid is easier to build than 1 chrono, 1 druid, 1 Firebrand and 1 Renegade

    All those issues exist outside of any balance concerns or viability. Renebrand is superior to druid+chrono. Druid+chrono merely has nearly 3 years of constant performance and reliability below its belt.

    As far as fractal groups: EU is seeing more and more groups looking for either composition with normal T4 groups already accepting Quickbrand over chrono (and forfeiting alacrity).

    To be honest, the only way to get everyone to switch from chrono+druid would be to make the composition absolutely impossible to run for a while (not advocating for this myself) so people are forced out of their comfort zone. Even making Renebrand vastly superior would not make every one switch exactly due to the ease of the content not requiring this. If you can complete something with a composition you are used to, many will not switch (but instead come whine about how fractals have become harder, yada yada yada).

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    Bosses can even be 4 manned in this game.

    If the only thing keeping you from getting a low man is your personal skill, i think thats actually good design.

    Nobody would take the opinion of a guy wanting to sit on a Knights longbow ranger as his "fun" in fractal CM's seriously, so why should I suddenly respect the laughable wishes of a person moaning about 3 more minutes on a boss being a reason for preventing others to play one of the classes of this game he doesn't approve of?

    Probably because nobody looked for a knights longbow ranger?
    While it might be fun to him, he shouldnt limit the fun the other 4 people in his group can have.

    If a commander wants a hammer warrior for cc he can look for one. I wont join his group but thats fine.

    They are the sheeple that keep renegade/quickbrand from being a thing because they are obsessed with the idea that only druid/chrono can work and people should be
    excluded from content if they don't conform and play something else that is still perfectly viable and a marginal difference.

    I already mentioned in another thread that i think that Chrono/FB/Ren Comp is superior to double chrono on casual groups and almost even to double chrono on more hardcore oriented groups. The only two bosses id say they are clearly inferior are dhuum and qadim.

    Also tbf. if seen people being pretty open about FB/Ren in pug groups. The problem is that you need both though.

    Or the fact that it's a 4 man says nothing about skill but rather the trivial tuning of said content where a DPS and heal check is so ridiculously low that failing said checks by such a player deficit won't wipe you.

    You may think it's superior ( I honestly don't care, both work fine), but the fact is here in NA fractal CM PuGs will seldomly accept fb/ren in lieu of druid/chrono and raids are the same. Just take a survey of the LFG every day at the same time, or during every reset and the results are the same, pigheaded class bias for no reason. You can say to make a group but the answer would be that a measured comparison in group fill times (if groups fill at all by reset, I've seen scourge group leaders sit in LFG almost an hour and more and still not fill at all) and still it's always the chrono/druid/guardian kitten that comes up and fills.

    People in such a loosely tuned game are way less flexible than in games whose endgame content is infinitely more tightly tuned (and spare me the gear kitten, every new tier is balanced around existing gear levels for completion; the ilv increases are mere rewards and an effective curve for nerfing content over time for less skilled players).

    You are lumping together a lot of issues which have nothing to do with the games balance though.

    Certain issues which affect class choice:

    • experience or lack thereof. Many people know chrono druid and are slow or unwilling to switch compositions. This is very evident with double druid compositions which are INFERIOR IN EVERY WAY to druid+literally any other healer
    • lack of class availability. Diviner gear is expensive. Not everyone is willing to spend gold or resources on gearing a character as long as another composition still works fine. Especially when they already own one of the most expensive character builds (Chrono has to be the most expensive class to maintain for pve bar none).
    • lack of class experience. A player who has mastered chrono is not incentivized to gain experience on a different class
    • lack of the groups experience. Some people are used to druid+chrono. Why make them switch strategies?
    • lack of desire or complexity of group composition. Why should someone switch from chrono where he is highly desired to something else? Especially when this other composition is now relying on another player doing the same (Firebrand AND Renegade)
    • constant change of meta. Chrono has seen how many changes within the last 1.5 years? Yet it remains viable. Why risk changing to something else?
    • mirror compositions are easier to build than non mirror. 2 chrono+2druid is easier to build than 1 chrono, 1 druid, 1 Firebrand and 1 Renegade

    All those issues exist outside of any balance concerns or viability. Renebrand is superior to druid+chrono. Druid+chrono merely has nearly 3 years of constant performance and reliability below its belt.

    As far as fractal groups: EU is seeing more and more groups looking for either composition with normal T4 groups already accepting Quickbrand over chrono (and forfeiting alacrity).

    To be honest, the only way to get everyone to switch from chrono+druid would be to make the composition absolutely impossible to run for a while (not advocating for this myself) so people are forced out of their comfort zone. Even making Renebrand vastly superior would not make every one switch exactly due to the ease of the content not requiring this. If you can complete something with a composition you are used to, many will not switch (but instead come whine about how fractals have become harder, yada yada yada).

    Sure, but that's not exactly an endorsement of laudable behavior. Refusing to be flexible out of ignorant pigheadedness or laziness is worthy of scorn. Especially because this intolerance is affecting other people's play experience. Daredevils for a long time were viable even before they've become meta, but it was sheer pigheadedness by "thieves are bad hurr durr bring ele" lemmings that stagnated the inclusion of thief mains into raiding and fractals. Same goes for power chrono, which has been perfectly viable as a power spec even before danger time becoming OP yet people were being dumb about only taking in thieves, eles, or guardians. Same goes for soulbeast, holosmith.

    You would think power reapers are atrocious in CM fractals because everybody will not join a party with one, yet Discretize lists them as a recommended build.

    This is a community mentality problem and quite frankly it needs to be addressed because despite the fact SC and qT have constantly given preambles about the flexibility and viability of comps, the same dumb PuG sheeple keep setting asinine restrictions for no reason whatsoever.

    And you don't need a diviner renegade. Harrier renegade will do just fine and carries even harder than Diviner, and same goes for FB while still providing their obvious perks.

    I don't even want druid/chrono to be made worse, because the fact is those elite specs are super niche and limited unlike renegade and quickbrand which have the flexibility of multiple viable roles.

    What I want is for people to be less pigheaded and ruining the play experience of other people for stupid arbitrary reasons. Pointless class exclusion is a real thing. You are not going to fail a fractal CM for having a scourge or mirage and your run time isn't going to take drastically longer. The main culprit for CM fails will always be mechanical failures, and people use class and specs as scapegoats for their personal problems.

    I've had way too many kitten blame my renegade healer for not being a druid because they died in Siren's Reef or Artsariiv when the real issue is you're eating Artsariv stomps with boon overload and outflanked adds not being dealt with by DPS instead of using Hypernova Launch to break out of her knockdown and dodge the stomp and deal with adds properly before tunneling the boss. Or running away from the healer during Siren's Reef, getting knocked away by wind tunnel with the green circle up and eating a full unsplit shark and then crying that healing is inadequate because they're facetanking a bunch of mechanics they shouldn't be. Or making their best effort to dodge out of my tablet during Deepstone's final boss and eating all the traps possible away from the group and not pulling and cleaving shades down.

    In a way it's why I despise the lack of proper support for meters because arcdps is such a shoddy excuse that you can't even pull up healing done/per second and post it on party chat or pull up damage taken and source of damage (to know what mechanic they're failing) and make it widely available, so people resort to their religious conspiracies about class/spec being behind the failure instead. A party with a core warrior doing abysmal CC bar damage during MAMA breakbar phases and then blaming the healer for a party struggling because there are no clean burns and stopping the CC spam from the knights or MAMA stomps, because you can't link CC damage done to a breakbar to the group.

    It's this lack of transparency that enables totally lazy thinking and what I miss most from FFXIV/WoW because the PvE environment in GW2 rapidly deteriorates based on player perceptions instead of hard data.

  • Amineo.8951Amineo.8951 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    Bosses can even be 4 manned in this game.

    If the only thing keeping you from getting a low man is your personal skill, i think thats actually good design.

    Nobody would take the opinion of a guy wanting to sit on a Knights longbow ranger as his "fun" in fractal CM's seriously, so why should I suddenly respect the laughable wishes of a person moaning about 3 more minutes on a boss being a reason for preventing others to play one of the classes of this game he doesn't approve of?

    Probably because nobody looked for a knights longbow ranger?
    While it might be fun to him, he shouldnt limit the fun the other 4 people in his group can have.

    If a commander wants a hammer warrior for cc he can look for one. I wont join his group but thats fine.

    They are the sheeple that keep renegade/quickbrand from being a thing because they are obsessed with the idea that only druid/chrono can work and people should be
    excluded from content if they don't conform and play something else that is still perfectly viable and a marginal difference.

    I already mentioned in another thread that i think that Chrono/FB/Ren Comp is superior to double chrono on casual groups and almost even to double chrono on more hardcore oriented groups. The only two bosses id say they are clearly inferior are dhuum and qadim.

    Also tbf. if seen people being pretty open about FB/Ren in pug groups. The problem is that you need both though.

    Or the fact that it's a 4 man says nothing about skill but rather the trivial tuning of said content where a DPS and heal check is so ridiculously low that failing said checks by such a player deficit won't wipe you.

    You may think it's superior ( I honestly don't care, both work fine), but the fact is here in NA fractal CM PuGs will seldomly accept fb/ren in lieu of druid/chrono and raids are the same. Just take a survey of the LFG every day at the same time, or during every reset and the results are the same, pigheaded class bias for no reason. You can say to make a group but the answer would be that a measured comparison in group fill times (if groups fill at all by reset, I've seen scourge group leaders sit in LFG almost an hour and more and still not fill at all) and still it's always the chrono/druid/guardian kitten that comes up and fills.

    People in such a loosely tuned game are way less flexible than in games whose endgame content is infinitely more tightly tuned (and spare me the gear kitten, every new tier is balanced around existing gear levels for completion; the ilv increases are mere rewards and an effective curve for nerfing content over time for less skilled players).

    You are lumping together a lot of issues which have nothing to do with the games balance though.

    Certain issues which affect class choice:

    • experience or lack thereof. Many people know chrono druid and are slow or unwilling to switch compositions. This is very evident with double druid compositions which are INFERIOR IN EVERY WAY to druid+literally any other healer
    • lack of class availability. Diviner gear is expensive. Not everyone is willing to spend gold or resources on gearing a character as long as another composition still works fine. Especially when they already own one of the most expensive character builds (Chrono has to be the most expensive class to maintain for pve bar none).
    • lack of class experience. A player who has mastered chrono is not incentivized to gain experience on a different class
    • lack of the groups experience. Some people are used to druid+chrono. Why make them switch strategies?
    • lack of desire or complexity of group composition. Why should someone switch from chrono where he is highly desired to something else? Especially when this other composition is now relying on another player doing the same (Firebrand AND Renegade)
    • constant change of meta. Chrono has seen how many changes within the last 1.5 years? Yet it remains viable. Why risk changing to something else?
    • mirror compositions are easier to build than non mirror. 2 chrono+2druid is easier to build than 1 chrono, 1 druid, 1 Firebrand and 1 Renegade

    All those issues exist outside of any balance concerns or viability. Renebrand is superior to druid+chrono. Druid+chrono merely has nearly 3 years of constant performance and reliability below its belt.

    As far as fractal groups: EU is seeing more and more groups looking for either composition with normal T4 groups already accepting Quickbrand over chrono (and forfeiting alacrity).

    To be honest, the only way to get everyone to switch from chrono+druid would be to make the composition absolutely impossible to run for a while (not advocating for this myself) so people are forced out of their comfort zone. Even making Renebrand vastly superior would not make every one switch exactly due to the ease of the content not requiring this. If you can complete something with a composition you are used to, many will not switch (but instead come whine about how fractals have become harder, yada yada yada).

    Sure, but that's not exactly an endorsement of laudable behavior. Refusing to be flexible out of ignorant pigheadedness or laziness is worthy of scorn. Especially because this intolerance is affecting other people's play experience. Daredevils for a long time were viable even before they've become meta, but it was sheer pigheadedness by "thieves are bad hurr durr bring ele" lemmings that stagnated the inclusion of thief mains into raiding and fractals. Same goes for power chrono, which has been perfectly viable as a power spec even before danger time becoming OP yet people were being dumb about only taking in thieves, eles, or guardians. Same goes for soulbeast, holosmith.

    You would think power reapers are atrocious in CM fractals because everybody will not join a party with one, yet Discretize lists them as a recommended build.

    This is a community mentality problem and quite frankly it needs to be addressed because despite the fact SC and qT have constantly given preambles about the flexibility and viability of comps, the same dumb PuG sheeple keep setting asinine restrictions for no reason whatsoever.

    And you don't need a diviner renegade. Harrier renegade will do just fine and carries even harder than Diviner, and same goes for FB while still providing their obvious perks.

    I don't even want druid/chrono to be made worse, because the fact is those elite specs are super niche and limited unlike renegade and quickbrand which have the flexibility of multiple viable roles.

    What I want is for people to be less pigheaded and ruining the play experience of other people for stupid arbitrary reasons. Pointless class exclusion is a real thing. You are not going to fail a fractal CM for having a scourge or mirage and your run time isn't going to take drastically longer. The main culprit for CM fails will always be mechanical failures, and people use class and specs as scapegoats for their personal problems.

    I've had way too many kitten blame my renegade healer for not being a druid because they died in Siren's Reef or Artsariiv when the real issue is you're eating Artsariv stomps with boon overload and outflanked adds not being dealt with by DPS instead of using Hypernova Launch to break out of her knockdown and dodge the stomp and deal with adds properly before tunneling the boss. Or running away from the healer during Siren's Reef, getting knocked away by wind tunnel with the green circle up and eating a full unsplit shark and then crying that healing is inadequate because they're facetanking a bunch of mechanics they shouldn't be. Or making their best effort to dodge out of my tablet during Deepstone's final boss and eating all the traps possible away from the group and not pulling and cleaving shades down.

    In a way it's why I despise the lack of proper support for meters because arcdps is such a shoddy excuse that you can't even pull up healing done/per second and post it on party chat or pull up damage taken and source of damage (to know what mechanic they're failing) and make it widely available, so people resort to their religious conspiracies about class/spec being behind the failure instead. A party with a core warrior doing abysmal CC bar damage during MAMA breakbar phases and then blaming the healer for a party struggling because there are no clean burns and stopping the CC spam from the knights or MAMA stomps, because you can't link CC damage done to a breakbar to the group.

    It's this lack of transparency that enables totally lazy thinking and what I miss most from FFXIV/WoW because the PvE environment in GW2 rapidly deteriorates based on player perceptions instead of hard data.

    I can't say it better myself, the community has serious issues in regards to endgame content in GW2, no wonder why only a fraction play raids and less are doing fractals with that kind of disrespectful behaviour (before you ask, yes it is disrespectful if you trashtalk and ban professions because your favourite speedrunners list these as mediocre for SPEEDRUNS in their website when it's not and totally viable).

    May I also add how all the fights since PoF are filled with AOEs on the screen and most people can't see a kitten thing? FFXIV has never done that, this is the laziest way to add difficulty on top of the cheap instabilities they added recently in fractals like the birds blinding you over and over again so you lose time and DPS, this is really not how you make the content funnier at least from my perspective and I know some elitists will defend this.

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